Okay, everyone, thank you. Happy New Year to one and all. Um, this is our first one for the 2023 and, uh, Nigel is not with us today. He had to take care of something, but don't worry, we got his covered. We will do him proud. So Nigel, we miss you, but he'll be, he'll be here for the next one. Okay. With me today.

I have, I'm really excited about this because a little bit of a background I was, I saw a sneak peek of the documentary that we're gonna speak about earlier on in 2022, and I cannot wait for it to, until it comes out. So I have with me today the, uh, executive producer, uh, Dave Bain Abraha, and the director David Messin of Wade in the Water, um, a journey into black, black surfing and aquatic culture.

I'm doing well.

How are you doing here? Thanks for having us doing.

Perfect. Thank you so much for agreeing to join us and just everyone knows they are on the West coast, so you know, it's like the middle of the day for them. So, um, once again, thank you for taking time outta your schedule. Of course. Just to be with us today.

Okay. Thank you. So, so just to start off, I mean, you know, for those of you who don't know, can offer viewers who don't know about the project, can you just tell us a little bit about David, about the project spiel?

Yeah, sure, sure. So weight in the water is really looking into the thousand year old history of black surfing and the culture, um, beginning with, you know, Senegal all the way to Angola.

And then it gets also into the history of, you know, the African American portion of the story in Southern California, specifically talking about, you know, the Jim Crow era surface like Nick Gavel, Don. all the way to current day. You know, um, organizations that have been around supporting black surfing, you know, to name a few Black Surfing Association, black Surfers Collective, you know, some of the new ones called the water.

Um, you have so fly. So the, the intent of this project was to highlight these stories, looking back to our history of surfing from Africa all the way to the Americas, and the end goal being to really inspire the next generation of black surfers. So our intent has always been, you know, share this story, inspire younger generation of surfers to come out and reconnect to the ocean.

So that's weight in the water. Great.

Um, so Bain, how exactly did you get involved?

Um, first of all, I guess David and I, we met through, through Instagram, kind of the Black dot surfers Instagram community that, uh, Kaha Johnson runs. Instagram connecting to one again, but yeah. Yeah. So we met through there and I was, I actually founded one of the surf schools that David, uh, talked about softly surf school with my friend SA and my friend Ashley.

And so David, he reached out to me, he said, Hey, I'm doing this cool project. I would love to feature you in it. And, you know, being an East African surfer, we could really relate on kind a new level. And so, yeah, I didn't know anything about the project. We were just trying to meet and we actually had some tough time kind of aligning on everything.

But we finally met and, uh, he kind of explained to me a little bit about it. And just like you called me, I was just amazed by the, the kind of, the magnitude of the project. And the goal of the project was very in line with kind of what I was trying to do with already in my own life. And so, yeah, I told him, you know, whatever I can do to help, whatever you need, let me know.

I think the first time we worked together was in a shoot with, uh, Kevin Dawson. And I always like to tell people I got an SD card from Staples. That was the first real value that I was able to add. And then that, that kind of led into, you know, the next shoot and the next shoot. And then I think David wanted some surf footage and I was already surfing with a bunch of people and you know, it's really easy to tell people, Hey, come to the beach.

I have someone filming. David thought it was like a really valuable thing for him. For me, it was like making my life easy. And so yeah, eventually he said, you know, you're doing a lot on the project. I want you to be the executive producer. And so, yeah, no, no experience. I'm, I'm an engineer by trade. Um, but yeah, I think I was able to leverage a lot of like my skills and experiences in that world and kind of help David out to, uh, produce the

documentary.

Okay. Um, so David sounds like you, so you invited Abe to join the project and the two of, and then the two of you just had it happening from there, right?

Yeah. You know, meeting bein the great part part about meeting bein, I've, I've known. a lot of the surfers, the local surfers through Black Surfers Collective.

I joined Black Surfers Collective when they initially launched Nick Gaon day at 2011. I've been going out teaching kids how to surf. I've been surfing since like the early nineties. So, um, I knew the community, but with Beg, he really knew the younger generations, like the cut of water, um, you know, um, Soulfly Surf School and a bunch of other individuals that I didn't know.

So he was able to open. That part of the story, we're able to share, uh, you know, the story of the past or, you know, the elder generation. I've been surfing for a while, and then the younger generation flew bein. And then like he said, you know, he was, he was an engineer by a trade. I mean, amazing engineer.

But when he came on board, you know, I showed him the ropes here and there, you know, what we need to do in terms of production that Kevin Dawson was like the first production that he was on. just pointing things out to him. Like, this is second camera. Your job is basically

like, literally like you pressed this button, you know?

You did an amazing job, . I didn't know anything.

Well actually, you know, the first interview was Alison. Yeah. Okay. Over here. Hi Kevin. So Alison's was the first interview, and Alison Jefferson, uh, you know, she's the one who gets into the story of. The Jim Crow era in Southern California and so forth. So it was, you know, it was educational for us, you know, just hearing her.

But at the same time, it was our first opportunity to film, to, you know, to bring this idea, this concept to life. How do we want to do these interviews? So bein picked it up. So it's been really a pleasure working with him, not only in terms of like the technical, the connection with the, with the community, but now like we're getting to a point of promoting it and it's kind of taken on, on the promotion aspect of it, you know, reaching out podcasters and PR and so forth.

So I, I have to give, be, you know, all the credit for being such an amazing, you. Thank you, producer.

Great. Excellent, excellent. Um, so, You mentioned the name Kevin Dawson twice now Bain, when you, okay. A little bit of, a little bit of a background. I gave, I gave David the story of how you and I met, but, um, so to give the, our viewers and listeners a story and how Bain and myself met, uh, during one of the, when they were, when you were showing the, um, the, the, the preview and you know, Nigel and myself, we sat on the panel at Patagonia, Brooklyn.

And that's how Bain and I initially met. Um, and I mean, I think we have, we've had some like great conversations since then. You know, a lot of what happened with that. And one of the names which Bain mentioned to me a few times was Kevin Dawson. So I went online and I read up upon this guy and I found out about him and I went out.

One of the first things I did was went out and bought his book right here, have it Undercover of power. Um, but there you go. Mine is back home. Mine is

promise.

You gotta, you gotta, you gotta carry it at all times, my brother.

Okay, so I'm, I'm gonna do a, I'm gonna do a plug for Kevin Dawson's book right now.

Now it's called Undercurrents of Power Aquatic Culture in the African Diaspora. This is the book I bought it, and mine doesn't have the papers that, um, David has, but that's because I write in mine constantly. You know, I'm always, I'm always going back and forth in this book. So that's a little plug right there.

Um, so if you want to read a, read it, please go get, it's an amazing book. Or if you see me in Rockaway, just ask to borrow my copy and you know, it's an amazing book, but. Those, that's one of the names you mentioned. And then David, you also mentioned, um, Alison as well, and just looking at the website, there are a lot of advisors that you guys spoke to.

So this is not just a project like, oh yeah, let's just speak to who we have, you know. So can you speak a little bit about the individuals you spoke to and what type of, and what they gave to you and how you were able to fit that into the documentary and into the film?

Yeah, sure. I think the, the first, you know, person I, of course interviewed was Kevin Dawson, was through Zoom.

Mm-hmm. , the, the project, just going back, you know, to how the project started. It was during, you know, COVID, um, black Lives Matter had happened, we're all, you know, uh, doing the shutdown. And as a creative person, I just felt like, you know, I needed an. . You know, just like any other creative, if you're a poet, a musician, you want to create something of from what you feel.

And for me, it was really, I wanted to give back something to a community that's been great to me, which is, you know, the Blacks first collective. So I reached out to them initially and we talked about, you know, Stu, maybe portraits and I, I likely talked about, you know, doing a documentary because I was working on the framework and how it would come to life.

Um, and then the book, Afro Surf also arrived at my house from, uh, mommy Wata. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I opened first chapter right there. You have, uh, that quote from Kevin Dawson that, you know, a thousand years back surfing began in Africa from the coast of Senegal to Angola. And that changed everything, right?

So here I am, been surfing since the nineties, and I've always, you know, I've always said this to even, you know, uh, bein, when you go paddle out, you feel like an outsider. You are never welcome as part of the surf culture, per se, right? Um, you always paddled out. You felt like, you know, this wasn't part of your culture and you were kind of borrowing it.

People, you know, the, the cliche is black people don't serve. You hear that all the time. And when I read that quote, , it goes back to the objective of this project, which is to inspire the next generation of black surfers. And to do that we really have to embrace our history. And I think what Kevin Dawson, you know, going back to Kevin Dawson, what he's done is he's 10 years.

The research has led to this amazing book that gets into these amazing stories of, you know, 1640 when the first written record of surfing was discovered in the coast of Ghana. Whereas Captain Cook arrived 1776 in Hawaii. These are like informations that we really need to share. It wasn't gonna be for me, it wasn't gonna be just a post.

And that, you know, led to wanting to tell the story, the origin story of Africa. And to do that, I had to ask him if he's available to be part of. Cast and be able to answer the question. I got on a Zoom man. Kevin is like one of the most amazing people you'll ever meet. Just breaks down the history right there.

I think I'll press record. I still have that recording. , you know, just in case you know , I'm like Record. And you know, I captured him telling me all this story just the same way as you. I think, you know, I still have like the tabs on here where there's like interesting stories that he shared with me at that moment that I wrote down.

And then I went back, read his book, and then when Billion and I, you know, went back and started interviewing him, We started creating the framework of telling the story, not only of Africa, but also of the Caribbean story when African Americans arrived in the Koreans, in the Caribbeans, what took place, how they interacted with the enslavers, and then also telling the story of the African American, you know, story in the Americas.

So it's way deeper than, you know, just the African story. He really brings you back to the Americas and every part of it is connected to, you know, aquatic culture, surfing, and how that has been part of our story. And, um, yeah, it's, it's really, you know, the key part of this documentary is that, you know, that's what's gonna inspire, I think the next generation of Black Surface is to embrace aquatic culture and surfing.

And he does that. And

then Kwame, if I could add to that kind of, um, a lot of the other cast members, they, you know, they're not historians or academics or, you know, people that have been telling the history of, of the sport or you know, of Africa, but they are, you know, we wanted to get a diverse kind of looking or diverse cast in terms of what they do in their lives.

Like if they are professional surfers or they run a community organization or, you know, they live on, they live in Trinidad. We have Chris Dennis, for example, from Trinidad. You know, that's a totally different story. We have like Angel Jardine, which he's like a 15 year old surf. That was adopted, like an Ethiopian surfer that was adopted by a Canyon family that lives in Maui now.

He wants to be a professional surfer. And then we have people like SA that started his own own own organization. We have people like Jessa, you know, that started kind of a surf school or surf collected for women of color, for example, you know, so we tried to get this diversity. We tried to document the net diversity of the community.

Just, I guess for a few reasons, just one, there's this idea of that, you know, black people are not monolithic in nature. You know, it's not just one type of person, you know, it's all, people can look like all kinds of different shades, colors have different interests, but more than that, you know, really help people find their group or their niche that might be very valuable for them.

You know, if you're a woman of color, you know, just as a group intersection, surf is, is a paradise for you. You know, you meet all these women of color, but then if you are, you know, a young kid trying to be a professional surfer, you would love to follow Angels Ardine and see his whole journey. You know, if you live in Trinidad, you know, you'd love to connect with Chris Dennis, you know, so we wanted to kinda get that diversity.

So more about the cast. They've really, you know, added to this whole kind of story. And everyone has their own little story. And I think Da David's something that we always, one of the big lines of the documentary Rick Blocker, he, he tells, he says that, you know, we really need to tell our history. That's all it really takes.

And what that, what that means is to tell our own personal stories. . And if we do that across the, across the board, you know, that will really be a good representation of that history. And so, yeah, just a little bit more of the cast. That's kind of my take on the different cast members and the landscape of how the, the kind of the cast looks.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's great. Um. No, I mean, I, I just hearing the two of you speak right now, it's, it's, it's amazing. So, like David, you know, I mean, I think almost every surfer of color or black surfer has heard at some point in their life, you know, you're black. Right, exactly. Why are you being out there in the water?

You know, for me personally, it was , what you trying to be an awesome white dude for, you know, you're black, right? So, and that unfortunately stopped me from learning to surf at an earlier age. So I learned how to surf in my twenties, but if, but back when, when I went, when I expressed to people, you know, I, I want, because I remember, and I've told the story to new, to many people, you know, the first time I watched, um, I was watching, uh, north Shore, and then the next year I watched Point Break and I was in the movie theater watching point break, literally like.

Just fascinated with what was happening on the screen. And I decided, you know, I wanna learn on the surf. And I told my friends and they were like, , what you trying to be an awesome white boy for? So it was that. So that kind of like, shut me down. It shouldn't have, but you know, nowadays I take it, make it a point, but anyone's like, you have no reason not to be in the water.

You belong in the water. Our people were in the waterfall, hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of years. Mm-hmm. . So we belong there, you know, so, yeah.

Yeah. No, uh, again, image is everything, right? Yeah. So, um, I think in many ways, you know, this documentary and how, just like Bein said, you know, Rick's quote is basically we have to tell our stories right through our image, through our experience.

And that I think has a powerful impact in how the younger generation or people who've thought about surfing will reconsider getting out and learning how to surf. Um, I think there's this image and this. , uh, information that's been in America that black people don't know how to swim. Black people don't know how to, how this and that.

So, um, which is, which is unfortunate, you know. Mm-hmm. even in, in this day and age, to think as such, or anyone to have such a narrative around what African Americans can do or what black people can do is, is, you know, it's, it, it's ridiculous. Right? Yes. For us, I think for be, and I, we wanted to make sure, you know, how we portray the individuals that are in the documentary, how we tell the story and how we bring it to life.

It's always been, you know, trying to find the most authentic and factual way. Um, it's always been, you know, not to get into argument even, you know, the story of like, where African, where, where surfing started. Like, we don't want to get into a point of like having those conversations where, where we wanna focus is really, is, you know, the history of it.

The true fact coming from Kevin Dawson talking about a lot of the challenges African American face then and currently are facing, I mean, there's posts like a few days ago we saw posts from Jess, her experience at, at a beach with, you know, with her with a boyfriend. So this is an ongoing thing. Mm-hmm. . Um, but we, we do need to change.

the narrative. We do need to change the image who and what black, what surfers look like. Right. And we hope this documentary would do that. Um, given, you know, the academia given, you know, the organizations, given the individuals that are in the, in the project. So we're, we're, we're really excited about , the February screening.

It's,

you know, I'm excited.

It's, it's just like, it's been an ongoing project for Be, and I just like noodling with it. And it's finally coming together. Like, we just finished the music, uh, we just we're finishing up the coloring and stuff we're so it's gonna be amazing and super

excited, really impactful.

And just Kwame, if I could add one more thing is, um, I think there's this historical kind of flip side of it, which I think is, for me, it was extremely impactful for, David inspired this whole project for you, Kwame, you were already doing this research before we even had that convers. , you told me like this is very in line with the stuff that I've been looking into.

Mm-hmm. . But I think, um, for a lot of young people, I don't, they might not be as interested in the historical, a aspect of it. It might be cool like, oh, they were surfing in Africa. That might be a cool thing. But you know, when I was a kid I didn't care about history. I was not really that interested in like what happened before.

I was like, Hey, let's go play basketball or something, whatever, you know? And so I think what we've been really trying to do very intentionally, and I don't like saying this too loud, but you know, it's kind of putting the medicine in the candy. You know, we're trying to wrap together this really entertaining, really kind of cinematic piece that, you know, tells a cool story.

But then through that you learn all these things about African culture, African surf culture. You learn about modern day organiz. . And then a big, a big person part of our documentary that's really doing that at a, at a really large impact level is, is someone called, named Brick, brick Engaged. They have this Ebony Beach Club kind of like brand, which they do these big beach parties, which, and I think Kwa a big point that you touched on is kind of the way that surfing is viewed in the black community itself, right?

We're trying to change the whole idea of surfing. Mm-hmm. just globally, but even in the black community, it's already, we face a lot of resistance. Like all of us have faced resistance from our friends, like, why you're gonna go surfing? It's like, what are you talking about? Like, that's a totally weird thing, you know?

And so kind of like skateboarding was never cool in the black community until like little Wayne was really started to skate and now a lot of black kids skate. It's not something weird at all, especially in Rockaway, right? But now surfing is still kind of behind on that kind of stage. And so Brig is doing a lot of great work to, to really get that younger generation interested in beach culture, surf culture, and you know, then through that they can get exposed to it and if they're interested, they have the opportunity to learn more and learn how to surf and things like that.

So I just wanted to mention that kind of. You know, the younger generation might be more interested in those kind of more fun oriented groups that, that incorporate a lot of other elements of beach life, beach culture, which black people can more so relate to. And then, you know, through that indirectly into surfing.

So yeah, I just wanted to mention that.

No, thank you. Um, so David just already bought my ticket. There we go. I will be there for the screening. I told Bay to meet you in person. Man. I told Bay the other day, I was like, I will be there, you know, um, I told Nigel, I was like, I don't know you're coming, but I am coming so I will, or I've already bought my ticket.

I know when I'm going, I will be there. So, um, yeah, expect to see me there. So you touched on, on something and I didn't know, uh, David and I, Bain, I actually heard you say it when we were doing the, the kind of the pre-screening. So I guess my, my question then is how do you answer people who may approach you and say, are you.

you are trying to rewrite the history of surfing by saying that surfing started, not, like surfing started in Africa or as opposed to surfing started in the Hawaiian Islands or in Polynesian Islands. So how do you, how, what's, what's your response to those? You wanna go?

Yeah, no, that's, that's, yeah. No, that's a really good question.

And you know, I am not a historian. Um, I think Kevin Dawson will probably do a better job answering this question. Um, all that I tried to do was to tell story that surfing existed a thousand years ago. And when it comes to the documentary, it's really comparing the first written record, right account, I should say, of surfing, which was 16, uh, 42 in Ghana, and 1770.

So those are the two comparison. It really doesn't get into like, Where did surfing start? Like, we, we don't, we don't get into that. I, I, I don't think this is the documentary to talk about or I am the right person to talk about where surfing began. So, um, that is, you know, like you said, it's a touchy subject matter.

We, we love how Hawaii, we love the, the culture, the history where we're surfing as originated as many people know. Mm-hmm. . Um, we're just focusing on what we found about the thousand year and the account. Um, but it, you know, to be specific about. Where surfing started. I think that needs to go to more of a Kevin Dawson or other Yeah,

yeah, exactly.

And if I could add anything to that is, yeah, by no means are we trying to take this kind of aggressive position of like, you know, we started it and then, you know, it got to somewhere else and then they brought it to someone. No, that's, we're not interested in that at all. Like David said, we're, we're just honestly retelling.

We're, we're documentarians, you know, we're not, we're not providing commentary. We don't have any degrees in history. You know, we're just documentarians and so we're just really telling, forwarding people's information. You know, Kevin Dawson, his whole scholarship is about African surf history. So if you have a problem with that, he would be, like David said, really the right person to read his book, understand, maybe send him an email, things like that.

But yeah, by no means we're trying to compete. We're not trying to be aggressive. Like we definitely wanna respect the Hawaiian tradition of surfing and, you know, every, that's been a hugely impactful, and especially from a competitive nature and from a commercial nature, the Hawaiian surf culture has been the center of.

All surf culture really for, for as far as we can remember as far as surfing. And so that's not nothing we'd ever kind of take away from. That's a huge point we wanna be very clear on. We're not no competition. There's nothing like that. We're just documenting history and forwarding the history

like David said.

Great. So when I was in, um, when I was in undergrad, I remember I have this one professor who actually went, who studied at ucla, and he is now back at teaching at ucla, but he always used to say that in American history, it always appears that everything starts off in the west. Okay. And it makes its way east.

So I kind of feel that, you know, with the, so you guys are doing this documentary and it started off in California and then all these. They're these, these, uh, groups and organizations out in California that, you know, are promoting black surfing and for surfers of color and so on. And you're start, we're starting to see more and more of that appearing in on the east coast, not just in the northeast, but then also making its way down the entire east coast as well.

So I guess my, my question then is how do you, how does that, how do you feel about that? Because we are seeing like a lot of duplication and a lot of, you know, is you see this as a positive thing. Do you think it might get saturated? David, what would you

say?

No, I, you know, I don't, I don't believe in the saturation because each story is unique, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, you know, we're, we're, we're one of many people trying to tell this story and we're not in no ways we're the first ones right yet, right? The direct blockers who've been working on it for years and years, you know, documented like.

That is from like the sixties, seventies, and so forth comes from him. So this has been an ongoing documentation. We are fortunately, the first black director, producer and editor. Um, just to throw to plug a name in Tafari, is our editor, who's also from East Africa. So our, you know, we're lucky enough to get this feature documentary out.

Um, that said, I don't think, you know, people telling a different narrative or how they approach the story. Like, for example, in the east coast of, you know, of, of United States, there's such a rich story about aquatic culture. You know, during the civil, civil war, prior to civil war, when African Americans first arrived, you know, in the, in the, in the East coast and how they were the aquatics versus the Americans.

There's a lot of history. That has not been told. So it would be interesting to hear that part of the story. Um, current day, there's so many organizations like, you know, the surf, your surf shop and so forth, that needs to be, that story needs to be captured. So I just feel like we're one of money, we're lucky to make it this far, but I hope, my, my hope is that different directors, different story tells, come out and tell a different part of these stories.

Like when you look at surfing in general, just there's so many films about surfing, like mm-hmm. , there's films from a brand, there's films about a specific surfer. There's a film about particular groups traveling, whether endless summer or Big Wednesday, like a future film that needs to happen. Those, those perspectives needs to be told.

So I'm actually looking forward to hear other stories other than more Yeah, and I

mean, from my perspective, I, when you say that, I think more about the community organizations that are, you know, active in Florida, New York. Mm-hmm. . , you know, in the West coast, in in Trinidad, things like that. And for me, I think, I think the more the better, I think especially if people are doing it, you know, with passion of their own intention and they're really, you know, focused and committed to it.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . I think the more of those people doing that kind of work, especially the ones that they feel called to do that work, I think that's super powerful and I think the, the better that we could work together with, with all those people. That's really my thing and I really see myself as this kind of connector in the community, kind of providing the service.

And with David, you know, I was, I was lucky enough to be able to connect him with a lot of those community organizations and yeah, I've just seen so much powerful, powerful, so many powerful things happening. People come together, like just to name a few, like a great day in the scope was huge surf competition, probably the.

Biggest collection of black surfers ever in history. Right. And that was impossible. Without the community outreach, without, you know, you tell a friend, they tell a friend, you know, tell a community organizer, they tell their community, you know, that's all super powerful. Right? And another big, big event is a Paddle for peace juneteenth.

We have a huge event that a lot of orgs come together and take part in. Mm-hmm. . Um, even with Ebony Beach Club, you know, there's some big, big orgs kind of coming together, making that impact. So I think, um, like David Milan, he has a big kind of, um, he's very collaborative. He's one of the founders of Color of the Water, and they, him and Lizelle, Lizelle Jackson, they say, you know, we're better together.

And they've been helping us out on Southeast, we're his new surf school. And you know, they could look at us kind of as competition and trying to take the market share and this or that, but that's, they've never a day in their lives thought about that they've given us. They were so helpful to us starting out to give us boards, wetsuits, all kinds of things.

Help and advice and everything. So I think that mentality of collaboration and, you know, if you have that passion to do something your own, I would say, you know, the more, the better. And. We could use all the help we can get, you know, the faster we can drive this storm forward, the the better. So yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think there's

any problem with it at all.

Yeah, right. Very well said. And um, so you mentioned community as well. So before you jumped on Bain, um, David and I were talking and I was explaining to David how you and I realized there's no Chris Dennis and, you know, it's, and it's just, and it's just, we, it always surprises me that, you know, with we don't know each other, but then when we find out that we know someone who knows someone, the community has just gotten so.

it's big, but at the same time it's very tight knit. So, you know, quest and Paul out here in Rockaway, um, I know, you know Quests and Paul Bain. And then, you know, I met someone, uh, I was down in Florida a couple months ago and I met someone who actually knew Quest and then knowing Chris Dennis, who's in Trinidad, and you knew Chris and I was actually looking through, um, I don't want to call them by the wrong name, but the posters.

Like portraits. Yeah, portraits. Is that what you call them? So the portraits, right? The portraits. So the portraits that you have, I was flipping through the portraits and I was like, hold up a second. I know this dude, I know this guy. This, it's right there under the name Chris. I'm like, wow. So Henry side talking.

Yeah. It, it was just, it just blew my mind that, um, that of all the people that in the entire Caribbean that you could have gone to, you chose Chris Dennis, who actually, who, who interviewed me a while back for the Aloha. No,

I remember. I remember Kwame, if you remember when, um, I think I was in, I was about to visit Chris in Trinidad, and I was so excited and I, I remember I called you and I said, Hey, we gotta do the podcast like we talked about.

And, you know, we're, we're premiering the documentary. I wanted to give you some information. Mm-hmm. . And I was like, and you're, we were just talking, we were just casually talking. And you're like, Hey, what are you up to? I was like, I'm gonna Trinidad next week. I'm super excited. And you were like, oh, I can help you out.

I'll give you some recommendation. Then he's like, I have a really good friend of mine. Are you going like out east? And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be staying like right there. Like, who, what's your friend ? And then you're like, his name's Chris. I was like, Chris Dennis. No way. Chris Dennis. And I was actually staying with Chris, and I was like, wow.

And on that trip is what I realized as well. So how small. It really, it's an international community, you know. From Africa to the Caribbean, to to all over the world, Hawaii, all over the world. But everyone kind of somehow knows someone that knows someone. Yeah. And like you said, quest and Paul, quick, quick plug to stop playing with him.

And uh, yeah, you know, everyone knows each other and really, really in the community, but it's so powerful that way. You know, that's when the impact can really be way bigger than, than the individual pieces, you know? So I I really believe that.

Yeah. And what I've found is that there the community has got, is so tight knit that even if you don't know the person, you can say, oh yes, I know, uh, David, I know Bay and I interview that.

Oh yeah, you're the guy from the podcast. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, no, come, come, let's sit, sit down, let's talk. And it's just, it just flows. The conversation just flows after that. So, yeah, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty great. Um, so speaking of the portraits, You have a lot of portraits on the website. Yep. Two in the background right there,

And so can you give us a little bit of information on what those are about? Because you know, like I said, I recognize Chris because I know him. Um, we all know Selema and there are a few other people in there, including founders of the Black Surface Association. So can you give us a little bit of background on those?

Right. So going back to the original idea of this project, you know, when, um, it was during Covid, like as I indicated earlier, and the thought was to do portraits of the individuals from Black Surface Collective. And during Covid I was exploring different ways of, you know, photography and ig, how you could put animation around face, so forth.

So the concept behind the portraits was, is there a way to. Reconnect back to our roots as, as Africans, right? So in my backyard there's this amazing tree. Um, and, you know, I took pictures of it actually. I used my daughter as a, as a test. So I took a portrait of her, then I put the leaf around her face. I was like, oh, this is looking really cool in terms of like, you know, having the leaf on the right and left side.

And it looked like a beautiful art piece. And then, you know, one morning I woke up and I'm like, I should really know what this tree is. What, what's the name of the tree? Like that way I can articulate, you know, thinking behind the tree, the connection, so forth. So I went in the backyard, used one of the apps, and I did a little read on it.

And it's an African tree, you know, it, it originate, originated from Africa. It's an African palm tree. and I was just blown away, like how things just came together in terms of Right. Conceptually wanting to reconnect to Africa through these leaves, through these trees, you know, kind of covering your face and so forth.

But at the same time, to find out this is an African tree made it even better. So, um, as I began the interviews, I, sorry, taking portraits and putting the leaves around people faces and making these amazing portraits, and the, the thinking behind it was, you know, we would make these portraits, um, as art piece, put 'em in a gallery, sell 'em, and then a percentage of it would go to the non-profit organizations that we selected.

Um, so that, that's really the objective and the thinking behind it. So, yeah, thanks for asking.

Yeah, because just looking at them, I mean, um, I, I mean they're, they're very powerful. I mean, I'm sort of viewers, if you can just look. Over David Schuler. They are very powerful photos. And, um, if you are, if you cannot, if you're just listening to this, then I highly suggest you go to the website and I'll let you guys go.

The website is a little bit later, but go check 'em out because there's some, just looking at them and there's some very poor, powerful portraits and you can actually sense the strength and the community as well. Comes through It comes through the portraits. And now knowing that it's an African, yeah, it, it is incredible.

No, hundred

percent Mommy Wata Salmas, uh, a brand that Salma co-founded. They put out this video called a Woo woo moment, or a, a very Woowoo moment, and it was just the way that they came across their space in Venice and the connection to sale's father back in the day. There was some crazy connection and yeah, this is, there were many woowoo moments part of this project, but this was definitely in my, my experience has been, it was an amazing moment when he.

he told me all that and you know, he was just playing with some concepts with, um, in the back and then the fact that it was an African fern pantry, I was like, wow, that's like, just insane. So yeah, I agree. Ooh, for sure. Wow.

Yeah. Wow. So really quickly, um, to the, to the viewers and listeners, if you have not purchased the Mommy Water book, I think you might be able to see it as land copies.

Like right about there on my bookshelf, if you can see it. Shirt . Oh, there you go. Afro Surf. So my copy's like right about there on my bookshelf, but you know, it's a very, very interesting and powerful read as well. And of course, you know, like I said, if you're in Rockaway and you just see me, just ask the, borrow my copy's right?

While we're on

plugging books. Let's plug. I'll send Jefferson's book as well. This is an amazing

book. Oh, that's a new one. I haven't seen this one.

Okay. Yeah. This, this is an amazing book. You can go to our website. It's Living the California Dreams. A lot of the story about, you know, the Jim Crow era, uh, so forth and Southern California and Nick Beldon, so forth.

All of that was in here. All, yeah. I don't know if you could documentary.

Yeah. I d if you guys remember when school, when you would have to write, uh, papers, you'd have to have some references, you know, you have to have some citations. Mm-hmm. and I would always just have the citations. Just have the citations, you know, just like, look up whatever, and I put it in.

Right. But these citations that they're very organic, you know, they're, they're like really influenced the project and we, the project came from these records, so, you know, if you want to learn more, they're definitely great. They're not just citations for the sake of having citations, like how I used to do in English class.

Right. These are real, real.

Now what I like, what I like now is that whether you guys have realized it or not, but you've done the work, you've gathered everything together and plugged it in one place. So as opposed to one person, go read Kevin Dawson, and then, okay, what else do I have to do Now? They go look it on Google and then search through how many different pages.

Okay, this person is reputable. So you guys have already done the legwork for us. So it's already there. All the work is already there, the people that we should read and, and that will open the minds to read even more again. So, yeah, no, no, no problem

at all. Thank you, . I'm really excited for how people are going so much to interpret everything and kind of make their own project.

I'm, you know, we're just, I feel like we're just starting things out, you know, and mm-hmm. , I think there's so much more that can be done and Yes. Yeah. I'm excited to see the impact of how everything will play out and really that, that, that kind of wave of impact that would be, I'm really like looking forward to all

that's,

Yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to see it as well, because, you know, um, I know we've, cuz the, I have seen other documentaries before about black surfers. You know, the one that sticks out in my mind first and foremost is, um, whitewash. Whitewash. Yeah. So I did see that one, and that's kind of the one that opened my mind first, opened my eyes first.

And, um, even though, yes, I had been surfing for a while, even before, after I, I had seen that. But watching that, watching that documentary and then, you know, I mean, it starts off pretty powerfully, you know, but I'm not gonna spoil it for our viewers. But there's this one, this one gentleman in the in, in the, in the documentary and he's, he's speaking to the interviewer and he, he says, point blank.

I don't see the con, I don't see why black people would want to go out into the water. I cannot see the connection between black people and surfing. And I'm looking at this with my head tilted, like, how do you not see the connection? There is documented scientific proof that when we are closer to water or in the water, we are happier.

Why wouldn't you want to be happy? Go go to the beach. And he just said, no, I don't go to the beach. I don't go to the water. I prefer to stay on land. It's like that's, no, we need to, we need to change that mentality and yeah, we, we came from the water, you know, just not just black people, but you know, humanity.

Mm-hmm. came from the ocean and you know, we are happier as scientific proof. We are happier when we're close to it. You know, the blue, the blue mind, you know, follows along with that. So, yeah. Are those are other things? Go ahead,

David. We, yeah, I mean, we get into, you know, so the narrative on the documentary is, you know, the origin story, right?

So it gets into a thousand years and then the pioneers, um, and it's hard, you know, we say pioneers, I'm sure there's pioneers in the Caribbeans and East Coast, but we try to capture the story through the lens of Nick Gavel Don. But then the next chapter, going back to the connection to the ocean, it's really the spiritual connection to the ocean, right?

So for me, um, I, you know, even beg, we come from, at least me being Ethiopian from a land log nation, whereas billion ancestors are from Athia, which is actually in the coast, in the east coast of, of Africa. Um, when I came to America, I was adopted at a very young age, and I came to San Augustine, Florida.

This is a city that has, you know, very dark history in terms of civil rights movement and so forth. But the ocean, for me, became this amazing escape and the connection to nature, the connection to Mother Ocean, that really changed my perspective of life. Right, and to what you were saying earlier, you know, for, for anyone you know, not all, you know, just af for African Americans, of course it's important to reconnect because the, the majority of Africans that were stripped, stolen from Africa brought, had a connection to Mother Ocean, but eventually it was kind of stripped away from them.

And as I start moving to the inner city, so reconnecting back to Mother Ocean, it's, you know, reconnecting back to roots, it goes back to the leaf, you know, the tree and so forth. And, , I think it is important, it's healthy given, you know, where we at socially, uh, you know, talking about mental health and so forth.

There's so many healing factors of the ocean that we know of as surfers that a lot of people are not experiencing. And hopefully, you know, the impact of this film could be, you know, people reconnecting, not just surfing, but actually going back to the beach and just hanging out on the beach, getting that breeze, just putting their feet in the water.

Yes. You know, and, and I think it's, it's a very healing, um, you know, uh, has a very healing quality to it. But then again, even when you start adding this layer of learning how to surf, when you start adding this layer of like, Hey, there's a community out there that can embrace you. Whether it's in the east coast or west coast mm-hmm.

That can protect, can educate you about the ethicacy of surfing all it's all there. You know, we just need to communicate that and hopefully, you know, like bein was saying with this documentary, we're able to inspire people, we're able to get people to connect back to the ocean. I hope, I hope people really, that that's really what we want out of this.

It's, it's great to get the, the, the screening and this and that, but at the end of the Yeah, if I can just add a little bit more

Kwame, I know, uh, like the mental health and the spiritual side that David is mentioning, I think that's an incredibly important part. Incredibly valuable. Mm-hmm. maybe more valuable for some people than, than others, but I think that connection between, uh, African people and water, there's, for me, what amazing things that I learned through this whole kind of journey was just the fact that Africa has, you know, massive amounts of coastline.

that is just bombarded by the Atlantic swell. And you know, it doesn't have a lot of natural harbors. It doesn't have a lot of sa like really quiet beaches. Mm-hmm. , all their beaches are just being pounded by swell. And the rivers in Africa are massive, like way bigger than any of the rivers here in America.

And Kevin Dawson really goes in depth through all this. And so there were a lot of economic reasons why, you know, human beings, we always live close to the water just because, you know, just for, for washing things, transport, like, it's just a very obvious thing for survival. And so that was no different in Africa where humanity apparently started.

And so that's already a massive, like really obvious and, you know, irrefutable connection between African people in water. But then more than that, there's like for economics, right? If you wanna travel from one place to another to trade, if you wanna go to an offshore fisher, . Um, you know, if you want to get your boat out and back in, you need to know what's going on with the, with the shore break, what's, what's, uh, when is the set coming, you know, when is the low?

How, how are the winds? You need to know all these things. And so that was really amazing for me, like just the practical proof that hey, black people not only wanted to go to the water and not only enjoyed the water, but they needed to be familiar with the water for their daily life, for their livelihood.

And that is like really powerful. I think for some people that might, you know, doubt the, the more kind of casual side of things. This is way more practical, like hard truth.

No, those are two very, very, very important points and very good points, you know. Um, so just speaking for myself, one of the things which I often do is I. Sometimes go down to the beach, sit down and match my breathing with the sounds of the waves crashing. And then as I inhale, as it's pulling away and I exhale as a hair crash, and then that just calms me down completely no matter what else is going on.

Just like five or 10 minutes of that, I am completely calm afterwards. I don't have to jump in, just match my breathing with the ocean. And it's actually called UJA breathing, which is ocean. . So it's just, just keep on doing that. And bay, you raise a very good point, you know, just to, it's not that they just wanted to jump in the water and go, oh, I feel great.

Exactly. It was, you know, this is our livelihood, this is how we're gonna interact with the world, you know, we do it. The fastest way to get to some place was, you know, go in the river, take a boat up river, down river. And that's how we, that's how they used to go back and forth and that's how we go back and forth.

So, yeah, both two, um, excellent points on that one. Um, so I'm gonna start, uh, wrapping up, but I want to ask both of you a couple questions and then we go into the light questions, which we have to ask everybody at the end of it. So , but, so you've kind of touched on this a little bit, but if you had your druthers perfect.

Oh, before I say that really quickly, I, just a little bit of background for me. So my family on my mother's side, uh, grew up in Nigeria. Hmm. And I still have a lot of family in Nigeria. And, you know, I communicate with my cousins and my uncles and all of 'em a lot. And I was actually telling them about, um, not just this documentary, but about Kevin Dawson's books and so on, and my cousin, um, one of my cousins said, point blank when this comes out, let me know how I can find out about this because I want my children to watch this.

Oh, wow. And she told, she said, so I said, are you, yeah, absolutely. As soon as you know, it's made available, I will let you know. And she's like, no, I really want, and she's a teacher and she's like, you, I wanna be able to show this to my class. And so, so you have at least one classroom in Nigeria Absolutely.

To watch, to watch the documentary. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so I guess my question was, What if you had, if everything worked out perfectly for you guys, what would, what would be the perfect outcome for AF for once the documentary show and you see it happening in the next, let's say, two months after the documentary happens, and then the next year and the next three years as it just grows and grows and grows.

What would, what would be the perfect scenario for you?

Yeah, so, you know, I think distribution, right? Mm-hmm. , so talking about Nigeria a classroom, what is the, why does distribution that we can get to get the story out? . Um, if our objective is to inspire, you know, young black surfers or you know, anyone really, um, is to get the story out, so distribution would be the ideal, um, outcome of this.

Being able to share with young and old Africa, Asia, everywhere. Um, and I think the other thing is, uh, changing the perspective, right? So when you go out surfing, That narrative of, you know, black people don't surf. I mean, that doesn't happen in Africa. You know, if you go to Africa, everyone is, you know, surfing, swimming, like me was taking these large rivers.

We're very much connected to the ocean, the rivers and so forth. And America's quite different. And how, you know, the stories are portrayed in America, how the narratives change in, in America has a global effect, you know, you know, vis-a-vis Hollywood and so forth. So really want to change that narrative.

So that would be the second biggest objective. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I

think our, again, high level goal, like I, I'm very like, uh, standard. I like to work through a process. And so I think, like we always said from the day one was like just to inspire the next generation of black surfers. And I think maybe an analogous goal is to change surf culture and what surfing as a black person means within surf culture, or what being a surfer means within surf culture.

I think those are the big highest level goals. And then I think if you go down the levels, I think to do that we need a lot of exposure. We need a lot of people to know about this statement cuz knowledge is really what makes changes people's decisions, changes people's mindsets. And so that's the really the big goal and the way to do that is through distribution and either you know, someone buying our project and you know, getting it out or.

Someone helping us distribute it, something like that. And that's really what we're, that's the whole reason. I mean, qu I love talking to you all, all the great conversations we've had, but we're really here to promote our documentary email. You wanna get it to the right hand, the right ear? No, no, please.

The whole point. And we've been really working really hard on the PR side to really get the word out and to give people confidence that, hey, this is gonna be a powerful project. You know, a lot of people need to see this, this story, and this information. And I just wanna shout out to one person that's really been helping us do that.

Extremely. And his name is Ahe McDonald. He's a great friend of mine, met him surfing actually in Mexico, and he's a person of color and he's a great writer PR coordinator. And he's been helping us really go through that whole process of reaching out to different publications and getting that word out.

Um, and so, yeah, that's really, that's the whole, the whole goal right now is to just, you know, distribution. And then once we get this guy out the door and everything is cool with this, then hopefully, you know, we wanna do projects in the future on the, in the same vein and continue that storytelling because, , there are a million stories that can be told.

I think we can do a whole documentary on each specific person that we even talk about. And so there's just so much to, to do and so, mm-hmm. . Yeah, like David said, I think, you know, to inspire the next generation ch change surf culture and what, what it means to be a surfer. Um, and then, yeah, just the way we're do that is through distribution and those film festivals that, uh, we're, we're hopefully gonna launch in February and hopefully that goes all very well.

Okay. So you heard it folks, word of mouth, if you wanna hop on the plane with me to California, come on down. You know, Airbnb's a lot cheaper. They're more people, so you're more than welcome. And you know, I, my, I mean, just letting you guys know right now, my plan is, I mean, I know you guys are gonna be super busy, you know, all over the place, but my plan is to at least try to grab you for five minutes of just like a quick interview at the.

More than five minutes, brother. I

appreciate that. Come on. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. Come on now. No, definitely because, um, I really think that you guys are doing an amazing, amazing, amazing, um, thing here and I really wanted to everyone to know as mu about it as much as possible. Um, yep. So, oh, before we, before I forget, how can people get in touch with you guys website, Instagram, let us know.

We're put into the show notes, but feel free to say it now as well.

Yeah. So a lot of pluggings, so in terms of the website, you know, you can learn about the project and the screens that are gonna come out. It would be at wait in the water project.com. So there you can find all the information In terms of screening, it's going to, we're gonna you premiere in the US starting with Santa Barbara International Film Festival, and that's gonna be February 11, 13th, and 12th.

Okay, we'll, we'll confirm 11

and

12 probably we'll have everything.

We'll, we'll have it, we'll, we'll put, we'll put it in the, we'll put it in the show notes with the confirmation. Don't worry about it. So,

Santa Barbara International Film Festival will be, you know, Saturday and Sunday. Again, you know, confirm on our website.

And then from there we're gonna go to the Pan-African Film Festival, which is the 18th we're, we're excited about that particular film festival. And then we'll work with Surfrider Foundation la. On the 22nd in la hopefully in partnership with Patagonia, Santa Monica. And then the last screening in February is gonna be at San Diego State, which is the following day, the 23rd.

And we'll have all that information on our website. But you know, before we, we hang up and all that good stuff, I do wanna give some credit out to our sponsors, which is please really, really important. This would not have happened without the support of Meta la that was a team that brought us in and supported us financially.

Another organization that has been very supportive of the project as World Surf League. And we thank them for all the support, including San Diego State University. They have a specific program called Black Resource Center Diversity and Surfing Skate. , uh, Dr. Gamble over there. Shout out to Dr. Gamble for hooking us up and supporting us.

But then again, there's a bunch of other partners, you know, I'll riff off real quick. These are brand partners. So you have Ma Wata, Patagonia, Hilda Bay, prospective Space Travelers Surf Club, uh, the actual of his, of supervisor Holly j Mitchell, who's been very supportive and wanna be part of this project.

Uh, and Ocean usa, which is where I work, Ruben, past associate. And last but not least, the post-production houses. This is all, you know, done for free and support of this community and these, you know, uh, and us. So that, and Los Angeles, California Music a. Amazing musicians, thus escort original music for us.

We are Royal that did the opening title treatment, which is amazing. Can't wait to share it. Uh, frontage, uh, road Studio. Incredible Warner. Incredible, amazing.

Michael Warner

for sure. It's been journey from the beginning. Uh, sfu, who's our editor again from East Africa and then Kira Linton, who's other producer.

So sorry, I had to send cast man. Amazing cast. So thank you so

much. Please. This sounds like it's definitely been a label of love and not just you guys.

If I can just add, yeah, it really takes the village, like you can see how big our cast is, how big our support crew is. It's like, it's not, you know, you might see just David, the director, I'm producing it.

I mean, there have been dozens of people that have been helping us free of charge, like super valuable help. And you know, really that was critical. All of those pieces were extremely critical to, to making the project succeed at all. But, um, but yeah, I just wanted to say personally thank you to you, Kwame and Nigel for being open to, to kind of, you know, align with our timeline and, and kind of just talk to us, help us out and yeah, thank you to everyone on the East coast, you know, quest, Paul, Paul kind of Rockaway crew, cat Joe.

I'm gonna miss so many names, but thank you everyone. You know, everyone, everyone .

Yeah. Yeah, no

thank you guys. So have really amazing David. I can't wait the day that we both go together to the East coast and, and check out the Rockaways. Really amazing community.

Yeah, I can't wait. Definitely you are invited any and every time. Don't worry about it. Awesome. As short as notice that you need, just come on through.

Just come on through. Okay. So now to the important questions. David Longboard or Shortboard? Longboard. Longboard. My man. I've searched with you before. I'm gonna ask you anyway. Longboard, shortboard? No. All right, my man. Okay. See everybody that we've had on short, I love, I

got love for the shortboard and the mid.

I'm coming soon, but

I'm a long boarder

No. Cause the thing, so Nigel is the shortboard who looks, who gets on a longboard. He has to, I'm the one

gets on a shortboard. That's a great, that's a great way to,

it's kinda like this back and forth, back and forth type of thing. So yeah. So that's, that's the way we, we, we usually, we always go back and forth with it like that.

Um, favorite post surf meal?

That would have to be

interesting. Boil for me. It's gotta be poke. Poke for sure. Yes. Poke, sushi. Poke fish. Fish. Love it.

Sushi. All right. Okay. Favorite post surf drink?

Hmm. I'm a purist. All

my friends, they make fun of for carrying around this insulated water bottle. So definitely water, but sometimes if I'm tired I need to go to work.

Maybe a matcha iced tea. We'll, we'll do the trick.

Mm-hmm. . Okay. So speaking of being tired and having to go to work, Dawn Patrol or Sunset

always. Dawn Patrol. Yeah. Down patrol. David Surfs, like one Don Patrol bottle. Every time we serve together, it's been down Patrol

Yeah. So then David, you and I can hang because Yeah, I, I mean the minute, I mean I'm usually waking, I

remember Kwame, I remember when I came to the Rockway, you're like a really early lesson, but I'm gonna get to the beach before the sun comes out. and use

the city lights,

the city lights to, to light the water.

I never heard that. I mean, I do first light, but I never heard it before. First light. That was the first time. Yeah. So I gotta give you

prompts for that. Yeah. So we had, so I had a class early in the morning and I told Barons like, okay, I'm gonna go surf before my class sun comes up at this time and I need to get at least an hour in before my class.

So that means we're gonna be out there before the sun even comes up. So we're gonna use the boardwalk lights and the lights. City lights. I was there. I was there. I was awake. , I'm benefit like I'm down. Let's do this. .

Shut up. Alright. That's amazing, man. That's the best. There's no one out in the water.

No, no.

It was like, it was just us and, you know, and then we, we actually hopped like from one beach to the other beach, to another beach, and then we went back to another beach. We're like, okay, we're good. We're good. Yeah. So guys, thank you so much for, for giving us the time and letting us know about the documentary.

And folks, you know, we've mentioned a few books in here. We're gonna place those in the show notes as well. Definitely. Kevin Dawson's book, um, book, uh, living In In Living, the California Dream. I have not read that one. I'm, as soon as I get off this, I'm gonna order it on Amazon. Um, Afro Serf. You know, if you haven't read it, please go out, get that book.

Um, the Blue Mind, these are all, um, books that I think everyone should at least lay their hands on at least once and, and, and fully, you know, read them through because it tells us a lot about not just who we are, where we come from, but also

I just wanted to add forme. Uh, I don't think we mentioned there's a mailing list on the website that, uh, people can join if they want updates, you know, with the project.

Oh, and then you can join that through the website. And then there's, if you want more. You know, updates in your regular day-to-day life Instagram page that we have, which we've documented all our previous events. The, you know, the screening that we did in Brooklyn with Kme and Nigel. Um, it's David Messin Art, and hopefully that can be the show notes too.

And we'll be really posting everything across those two resources. And so if you wanna stay up to date for the project, Instagram, David Messin Art, and then the mailing list, you, uh, wait in the water project.com.

Follow us.

Epic. Absolutely. Please follow, definitely follow him. These, this documentary's gonna be huge.

It is. I really think it is. You know, it is. I, because causes Nigeria, so

looking forward to see you in LA man.

It's, oh, absolutely. No, definitely. Like I said, my ticket is already purchased. I am coming down the weekend of President's Days, depending his days. The Monday, I'll be there the

Thursday. Let's go, let's go.

First surf. Let's get David out in the

water. I'll be there. Yes

sir. Yes sir. Don't

patrol long board. Let's go.

Don't water. Don't threaten with a kick. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Take care.

You as well. Cheers.