Transcript

[00:00:00] Tyler: Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Our guest for this episode is Emilio Perez. His paintings and works on paper can be described as abstract expressionists with the graphic component.

[00:00:18] He produces punchy, energetic compositions full of knotted flowing forms that emerge from loosely painted passages of color. He has been represented by some of the largest galleries in the world and has produced some incredible large scale pieces in places such as Times Square and the Mela in Cuba. He came to surfing later in his life, but has been an N Y C devoted core surfer for over 20 years.

[00:00:47] Braving many wintry surfs, and holds things down in Bushwick where his studio's been before it was trendy in hip, before Roberta's, before Momo, and before the graffiti walking tours. [00:01:00] A Emilio represents that New York success story that we all dream of living. I'm really stoked. He's here in the studio with me today.

[00:01:09] A Emilio. Welcome to the. Thanks for having me, Tyler. How's that intro?

[00:01:13] Emilio: Good. Excellent. . Very well done.

[00:01:16] Tyler: Yeah. You like, like the whole, like he was in Bushwick

[00:01:18] Emilio: before it was cool. Well, it's all true. people are like, dude, you're so far out. Yeah. , you're like, really? It's like, not anymore. I origin only five stops.

[00:01:28] Not anymore.

[00:01:29] Tyler: So, um, let's just like go right into this. Um, you were born in New York City though, correct? That's right, yeah. And then like you mainly grew up in Miami?

[00:01:40] Emilio: Pretty much. Uh, we left New York when I was about five and my dad was working for a bank at the time and we ended up living in Brazil and Rio for a couple of years.

[00:01:48] But, you know, by the time I was eight, uh, we were back. We were in Miami. Yeah. Uh, and that, those were sort of like where I had my formative years and, uh, and then went to college in New York. Oh. What was it like

[00:01:58] Tyler: Jackson Heights originally? Where

[00:01:59] Emilio: where you [00:02:00] I was born in

[00:02:00] Tyler: Jackson Heights. Nice. Nice. Now, let me ask like your, your parents, they fled the Cuban Revolution in 1961 and like your father was a lawyer, your mother studied economics.

[00:02:12] Hardly the types of parents one would imagine for an artist. So I gotta ask like, where'd you get your desire to create and paint come from?

[00:02:22] Emilio: Well, it's interesting. So, you know, this, these are the things that my parents studied Yeah. Um, in, in Cuba. But then when they came to this country, in the end, my dad got into banking.

[00:02:32] So he never practiced law. And my mother was also working at a bank, but she al she was the one in the family who always had a very sort of artistic, uh, side to her. Mm-hmm. . And from a very early age, I remember we used to go to Chesapeake Bay mm-hmm. . And she would collect these like big clams shells and bring 'em home.

[00:02:51] And she would paint birds in these shells really. And then like, make like a little, and then glue together a bunch of other shells to create like a base for these things. So, . [00:03:00] I just remember there always being this box of paints. Mm-hmm. and like a couple of like how to paint books, you know, when I was a kid and that was, you know, I think I always had that part of that creative thing in me.

[00:03:13] Mm-hmm. , but I had the tools there to do it. Yeah. And I was encouraged.

[00:03:17] Tyler: Yeah. I was gonna ask like, were your parents supportive of it? Like it, from what I've read, like it sounds like your father was quite, um, stern and, and, and domineering. Is that correct? Like, well, that's

[00:03:32] Emilio: probably pretty typical of most like, you know, Cubans of his generation and I mean, certainly supportive of me being creative and making work.

[00:03:40] And I mean, I, I was like the, you know, in quotes, the artist of the family. Now whether we agreed that that was gonna be, you know, a career of like a career choice, that would make sense. That's a different story

[00:03:54] Tyler: that's gonna ask. Like, and how, how did they, like, What was your relationship [00:04:00] like then? So like the way you describe it, right?

[00:04:02] Like your mom being creative and your dad kind of being a bit more of like banker, kind of straightforward.

[00:04:08] Emilio: It's like practical and it's very typical I think, of the immigrant experience, you know, I mean, you know, so you leave your, you leave this country and they left as adults. Yeah. Um, you know, for a better life, for their, for their family, for their kids.

[00:04:20] And they want to, you know, they want to, they want you to be successful. You know, they don't want you to go through, you know, hardship, any hardship or any struggles. So there's something said to be, there's something to be said about, you know, being practical and making those decisions that are gonna, you know, create a stable mm-hmm.

[00:04:36] sort of, you know, life, career, et cetera. It,

[00:04:39] Tyler: it, I can't help but think of just cuz I saw it like the Fable Men's, I don't know if you watched that movie, ? No, I'm not familiar with it. It's really good. It's like Steven Spielberg's kind of semi autobiography. Okay. Movie. And it's like you have one, one parent who's more like numbers and kind of, of like a certain kind of [00:05:00] abilities and the mother mm-hmm.

[00:05:00] is like more of the creative and then the kid who's just kind of trying to be the more creative one and finding that support amongst both the parents basically. Mm-hmm. and how you navigate that. Um, you know, I, I was like, do you. With your art and as you were growing up, like was it like Miami? What was that like?

[00:05:22] Like were you, it sounded like from some of the stuff I've read that you were like, into this whole kind of little art scene. You had like a lot going on. Like what was like Miami like in the eighties, like kind of growing up in that time and, and kind of trying to be an artist or trying to express, you know, yourself as a high schooler?

[00:05:41] Emilio: Well, in the eighties, I don't know how much of an art scene. I mean, there's always been some sort of an art scene anywhere, right? Yeah. Um, I think like the sort of the contemporary art world really started to sort of evolve in Miami, you know, sometime in the nineties. Yeah. Uh, but in the eighties when I was in high school,

[00:05:56] Like I said, I'd always been drawing, I'd always been doing this stuff. Yeah. I was the [00:06:00] artist of the family. And I think I've thought a lot about this in, in the context of, of this recent show that I did. But I've been thinking a lot about the reasons why I got into making art Yeah. In the first place. And for me it was, part of it was, you know, just an escape, you know, because I was also quite different than everybody else in my family too.

[00:06:15] Yeah. Um, but in high school I just happened to have, maybe I just gravitated to, but I happened to have a bunch of friends who were artists. Mm-hmm. , we were all in the same AP art class. I think our senior year of high school, we had like four or five art classes back to back. Yeah. With this awesome teacher who was super supportive and it really, and it was her.

[00:06:34] She was the one who, you know, I thought, well I'll probably, you know, maybe I can study architecture. Cause I was kind of interested in that. Uh, and art wasn't really a reality. I never thought it was. Yeah. And then this teacher who was very encouraging, she's like, listen, you know, you should, why don't you apply to go to art school?

[00:06:51] and I was like, oh, wow. Does that, you know, can I do that? Does that make sense? ? And I, and I did, it was amazing because I got into Pratt and I went to school here, and she[00:07:00] quit her job that fall, I think the year that we graduated, and then went to grad school at Pratt. So I was Oh, wow. Going to school at the same time with my, uh, with my high school art teacher.

[00:07:08] It's just like pro at the time, she seemed a lot older, but she wasn't really that much older than us.

[00:07:12] Tyler: Saturday, her name was, uh, Tatiana. Is that it? Yes. Wow. You did your homework. I did my homework. You know, I came prepared. I'm, I'm curious in like, God, like your parents must have been like, who's this teacher influencing my kid?

[00:07:24] Tell 'em like, go to school for art, you know, . Yeah. Not architecture, at least. Well, I think they

[00:07:29] Emilio: like the fact that she was Cuban and I think that, like there was some, I don't remember, I don't recall exactly, but there was some sort of connection with her family. Like somebody knew somebody. But, um, but yeah, I mean, she was really the, I think that she was the catalyst for, for sort of setting me.

[00:07:42] In a direction mm-hmm. , or at least like showing me that there was a possibility to actually turn this into a career. I mean, I didn't know, I didn't know what I was getting into, honestly. , but, but it just, it's what felt natural to me.

[00:07:55] Tyler: Let me ask like then, like, how much of the Cuban community in [00:08:00]Miami were you seeped in growing up?

[00:08:02] Was it like all, all around you as well? Or was it something that felt more

[00:08:08] Emilio: distant? No, I mean, it was definitely, you know, omnipresent in my life. But I've always, when I've talked about this, I've always said that I've sort of, you know, I've always felt like I lived in two worlds because at home, you know, I've grew up in a very sort of traditional Cuban house.

[00:08:23] Yeah. And, you know, my, with my grandmothers and, you know, speaking Spanish and home, um, outside of school I had friends from all over the place. And where I went to high school, that high high school in particular was actually quite diverse. Um, you know, so you had kids from Cubas Gain and Coconut Grove and Carl Gables going there, but then you had.

[00:08:41] You know, you had a lot of Cuban kids coming, so it was very, it was very international. Mm-hmm. , I mean, for, for public school, I guess in Miami . Um, but so my, I just had these, like, these sort of, like these dual lives. I had a lot of American friends, you know, who were, whose parents were way different Mm. Than mine.

[00:08:59] They [00:09:00] were way more relaxed and way cooler and like, you know, it's just a different thing.

[00:09:03] Tyler: It, it's interesting like, cuz when you're a teenager particularly, I feel like we're, we're always searching to belong. Yes. Right. We're all like looking for an identity as well. And, uh, I'd read somewhere like you, you, you really identified as an artist almost in high school.

[00:09:19] Or use that as a way to kind of create some sort of identity for yourself.

[00:09:24] Emilio: Yeah. Well it's, it's, it, you're absolutely right and I didn't really recognize this and understand it until pretty recently in my life. Mm-hmm. , you know, maybe, you know, within the, in the last 10 years, I've realized how. , how much of an how, how I was when I was a teenager that I like this, how I had this need for an identity.

[00:09:44] Because again, I didn't feel a hundred percent Cuban. I didn't feel a hundred percent American. So I was like kind of somewhere in the middle, but I was 100% artist. Right? So I think that that had a lot to do with the fact that I persisted and [00:10:00] managed to have like some level of success as an artist because that passion of mine was completely linked to my identity.

[00:10:09] So if I'm not making art, who am I? Right? You know? And so that was, um, that was a, that was something, and I never thought about it that way. And once it kind of like, once I had that, that, that, that light bulb moment, I was like, you know, I had started looking back and I was like, wow, well this, this all starts to make so much more sense.

[00:10:26] And that, that that artist's, um, identity was able to sort of encapsulate both parts of my life. Right. It's a,

[00:10:33] Tyler: it's a way of like blending those, those two kind of. Sure. It's almost like Venn diagram, you know, like we have the circle, circle circle. Mm-hmm. and here's Emilio in the middle almost. You know?

[00:10:45] Exactly. Like it's, um, I, you know, it's funny cuz that's how I viewed myself as, you know, not an artist, but I identified as a surfer. Mm-hmm. . It was a real huge part of my personality growing up. Um, I grew up in a area where there [00:11:00] were no surfers. No one surfed, no one. I knew it and I never. completely comfortable with a lot of the kids that I, I grew up with, but it was the surfing was the identity I could clinging to.

[00:11:11] And it it's amazing like how you can avoid a lot of shit too with by, by having that Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. Like you can avoid kind of going along with a lot of people doing dumb things, you know, or getting into bad things because at least like, uh, this is where I stand that's doesn't align with like how this type of personality or how I perceive this, uh, this person to be almost mm-hmm.

[00:11:37] Right? Like, what do you, what do you, let me ask you then, like, what do you think? Like, do you think, who is Emilio Perez without art then? That's a good question. Do you ever think about that? Like, I, I sometimes think like, what if surfing were stripped for me? What if I were injured and could never surf? How would I identify

[00:11:58] myself

[00:11:59] Emilio: then?

[00:11:59] Well, [00:12:00] I think that, . I mean, it's hard to imagine right? That, that being the case, but I, you know, when I realized how much of my identity was tied to what I decided to do mm-hmm. , uh, I did have those thoughts. And I think that, I think now I'm just okay with being Amelia. Honestly, , you know, I've had a lot of, I've had a lot of amazing experiences, and, and, and the one, one of the, the great things that this kind of career path has offered me is that I've met people from all different walks of life.

[00:12:30] Mm-hmm. from all over the world. And it puts me, I'm, I'm very comfortable pretty much anywhere I go. Yeah. Um, and that, you know, makes me comfortable with myself, I guess. Totally.

[00:12:42] Tyler: Well, you went to Pratt then, and what year, what years was this when you went to Pratt? Like, so I moved early

[00:12:48] Emilio: nineties, would you say?

[00:12:49] Yeah. Early nineties. I moved, I, I went to, I started at, at Pratt in 1990. And then I dropped out in 92.

[00:12:56] Tyler: How, first, like what kind of [00:13:00] culture shock was it for you coming from Miami to New York, especially I think for a lot of our listeners, a lot of people don't realize what New York City was like around that time.

[00:13:11] I've got, I've got tons of stories, but

[00:13:12] Emilio: here we go. Go. I'll tell you, I'll tell you the one from our, my first day Yeah. At Pratt. And, uh, I had gone, I'd applied to a couple of different art schools and I think kind of one of the things that, that turned it for me was that we went to visit a couple of different schools in the northeast and Pratt was offering, um, that you could come up and stay in a dorm with some of the students.

[00:13:34] And I did that and I had a, they, you know, I had a really good time and it was a little bit more, I'd gone to see sva, but SVA didn't really have like a campus and it was kind. In, in the city. So it was like a lot more intimidating that like, Pratt seems like a little bit more sort of self-contained. It's got a campus, it's got like Yeah, except the neighborhood was like a total war zone

[00:13:54] Yeah. Um, and New York was just, just completely different, you know? I mean, that was the height of the crack epidemic. I [00:14:00] mean, you couldn't walk down the street and you're just like crunching on empty crack biles everywhere. Um, you know, gunshots every night. You know, you'd hear 'em, you know, from the dorm.

[00:14:08] But, so that first day that we moved in, my roommate who was had also been in my high school art class was a good, oh wow. Good buddy of mine, James Murphy . Uh, we show up and I'll never forget, we were like in this lousy dorm that, that was only, it was supposed to be a temporary building mm-hmm. , but they kept it up and it , you know, it.

[00:14:26] Look, it was, you know. Anyways, we, we, we get there and we open the dinner, the, the window. And I, I'm standing there next to my buddy and I was like, well, James, like, look, you know, we made it, man. We're in New York. We're come, we're going to school . And as I'm saying it on the far corner, A gunfight breaks out.

[00:14:43] Oh. Meanwhile I could see the police station on the other corner. Yeah. Like a block away . And we're like, what have we done? You know? And people were like, they're like, man, you guys are from Miami. You must be used to this stuff. I was like, I don't know. I was like, you've been watching too much Miami Vice

[00:14:56] Like, this is insane. And it was. I mean, it was, it was rough. I mean, [00:15:00] I, you know, I think that, you know, when you're, you know, you're a kid and you just like, you know, you kind of get desensitized to things. Mm-hmm. , but it was, it was pretty rough. And I, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't, you know, New York was a different place.

[00:15:11] I don't think I was, I was really prepared to get away from Miami and get away from, from being, you know, in, you know, with my parents. Yeah. Um, but I don't think I was prepared for New York at the time. And I think that that contributed to me leaving, leaving school and moving back to Miami. Not to move in with my parents.

[00:15:29] No. But, but to move into Miami, to move back there. And that was like, I mean, that was kind of a crazy place too back then. .

[00:15:34] Tyler: Well, like, how was it with the classes then? Was it, did it stack up to what you thought? you should be learning or what, what your idea of what you'd be learning at that time. I, I, did they have you drawing circles?

[00:15:49] Like 120 something times? I mean,

[00:15:52] Emilio: your first year you'd take your core classes. Yeah. So there's like, you know, drawing, sculpture, color theory, that sort of thing. Honestly, I just wasn't that [00:16:00] into it. I was more into, you know, just living and partying really. Like, I just wasn't, I don't think I was mature enough, honestly.

[00:16:06] Yeah. To even be able to answer that question, because I was not, I don't think I was invested in what I was doing. It was such a, it was such a wild time for me. But I think important, you know, as far as my development went, I think that there was, there was some aspect of having come here and had that experience that gave me like a certain kind of confidence maybe.

[00:16:24] Mm-hmm. .

[00:16:26] Tyler: did, did you like study, like in high school? Were you studying artists or art history at all, or was it Okay, so you had Yeah. No, no. I, I had No, no, no. I did have a foundation in, in art history. Yeah. I didn't know, like it was something that

[00:16:37] Emilio: was, that was interesting to me. I'd always, you know, I'd always gone to museums, you know, I'd always, you know, gotten books from the library, you know, and like, there were certain, certain things that

[00:16:47] Tyler: can be trouble getting those books from the library these days in

[00:16:49] Emilio: Florida.

[00:16:50] Yeah. , well, not true , but I think about, you know, I think about young artists today. It's like, you know, one of the, one of the challenges is finding your voice as a artist. And I [00:17:00]think about when I was like, sort of my formative years, you know, my, my access to information was very limited. You had like encyclopedias, you know, like National Geographics.

[00:17:08] You could go to the library to get stuff, you know, you didn't have a thing in your pocket that has billions of images, you know, and you know, have you, you know, that, that you have to kind of sift through to kind of understand like, what is it that, do I really like this or am I liking this because somebody else is into it and they're telling me that I like it type thing.

[00:17:26] Mm-hmm. . And so that, you know, I think I was very lucky that I didn't grow up at that, you know, grow up now and I said I grew up at a different time. Well, let me ask, what do

[00:17:34] Tyler: you think now then, like, how, how do you think it's, I mean obviously there's a lot that's changed, but like, what do you, do you think there's just too much access now that it's almost too difficult for people to find that voice?

[00:17:46] Is it, do you think it's daunting to, to find a voice because so many approaches to so many to art in so many different angles has made it. like, well, and it's

[00:17:58] Emilio: been done before. Well, the thing is [00:18:00] Well, that's, that's part of it too. Well, I mean, I'm looking at it through my, through my lens. Of course, of course.

[00:18:04] You know, so, yeah. So I can't, you know, it seems to me, yeah. That, that would be the case, that you just have way too many choices available to you at all times. It's just like, in every aspect of life, not just you trying to find your voice as an artist, . Um, but then again, you know, I didn't grow up, you know, with the internet.

[00:18:22] I didn't grow up with a phone in my, in my hand, you know? Right. Taking in all of this information. So maybe, you know, kids are wired different. I don't know. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a strange thing. Like I'm, I, I've really, you know, being, you know, having, you know, grown up through the seventies and the eighties, and then, you know, coming into this, you know, into the world that we live in now, it's like, I've seen so many changes.

[00:18:44] You know? I mean, just even like, I remember, you know, the first cordless phone, and that was like a shock. Had an antenna that was like three feet long. Oh

[00:18:53] Tyler: man. Saved by the bell, Zach. He had that great cordless phone, you know. Um, so you ended up then [00:19:00] going back to Miami and like first, like, I imagine, I don't know, like I, I, for me, like I would imagine it, there's like a bit of humbling that that goes on and, and also like, I don't know, like how, where was your mindset when you went back?

[00:19:18] Did you feel like I tried New York, I'm over it? Or were you like, I couldn't handle it up there, or I want something different?

[00:19:28] Emilio: Well, I mean, part of my decision to leave Pratt one, I kind of, I recognize that I wasn't really sort of, you know, ready for, for school. Yeah. But life was really hard here. Yeah. I mean, I had, I had no money.

[00:19:39] You know, my parents at the time, you, you had to take out a loan,

[00:19:42] Tyler: right? Like

[00:19:43] Emilio: you had to take out Yeah, I took out loans, which was kind of, I mean, when I think about it's just compared, compared to now, . Well, yeah. Well, I mean, just even like to take out a loan to go to art school seems ridiculous to me now at this point.

[00:19:53] But, um, but it was a, I mean, it was, it was rough. My last year, my year, the year before I left was really rough, you know, [00:20:00] my parents were, were having financial issues. Mm-hmm. , so I had no. I used to steal food from the, from the cafeteria at Pratt. Wow. I, you know, I would, I made a, I made a fake. Uh, this is where the creativity comes in.

[00:20:11] All right, Taylor. But I made a , I made a, this thing that looked like an architectural model, um, but it was the exact same size as a cafeteria tray, and it had like a, like a little sliding, it had like a little door. So I would order a bunch of stuff, and then when nobody, and I'd have my, my homework assignment, right, yeah.

[00:20:28] Next to my tray. And then when nobody was looking, I would slide the tray inside of this thing and then buy a bagel or something like that. . And it got like, I mean, it got super popular. I used to lend it out to other friends of mine, . But it was, it was needless to say, it was rough. I wasn't happy, you know, it was like, it was a harsh, it was a harsh place.

[00:20:44] And so I, I moved back to Miami, you know, I wasn't disappointed to do it. Okay. I think it was, I think it was the right thing. I felt good there. And I quickly sort of reconnected with like, um, one friend of mine who had been in [00:21:00] my high school art class mm-hmm. , who had gone away to art school and he had come back too.

[00:21:04] And we ended up living together. I ended up finishing school down there, and I think we really fed off of each other. Mm. Um, I mean, we were like really arrogant assholes, you know, back then, because we'd like

[00:21:17] Tyler: because we Go on, go on. We, we,

[00:21:19] Emilio: um, we, we were both going to the same school, uh, new World School, the arts, and I, I went to go do an interview there with the dean and he had been the former dean of painting at Pratt.

[00:21:30] Oh wow. Um, this, uh, this really interesting guy named Mel Emberg, and we just hit it off right away. And I think the fact that, that I'd gone to Pratt, like there was a connection there. Mm-hmm. and he was one of these people that, you know, sort of really believed in, in you if you really had some kind of a direction or if you had some sort of confidence in doing something.

[00:21:51] And, you know, I had plenty at the time and so did my friend. And, um, , he really opened up a lot of doors for me in that, in that [00:22:00] regard. And so right when we, when we first started going to school there, um, there was a big gallery space and they would do an occasional show in there, but half the time it was empty.

[00:22:09] Oh, wow. And so, you know, nobody else thought about doing this, but we, we, we went to Mel and we said, Hey, you know, this thing is empty. Can we do a show of our friends, us, us and our friends? And we did this show, and of course we did. And I mean, not to, not on purpose, but we didn't include anybody else from school except for the two of us.

[00:22:25] And the rest were just like random friends of ours from, from like, from high school and like musicians or whatever. And we did this really cool exhibition called 3D Lifestyles. And it was like, I mean, it was a, it was a legit space. and like that again, like another confidence boost. So there were like all of these, these people like sort of throughout my, my life that have been like, sort of, you know, like the person in in, in roller derby that like, you, you coming around the corner, slide you in and they like kind of, they give you that little extra boost to like kind of keep going.

[00:22:54] Yeah. Um, I've been very fortunate in that regard.

[00:22:56] Tyler: Yeah. I was gonna ask like, how first, like one thing I [00:23:00] wanted to talk is like, how important do you think it is as an artist to have other people to feed off of? Because it seems like something that, that you kind of definitely have, have thrived with, you know, and like, it seems like your, your space, your studio here is like open to some other creative people to come in and utilize as well.

[00:23:19] Like how important is that for your drive and, and other artists? I think, I imagine, you

[00:23:24] Emilio: know, everybody's different, right? Um, I think it's, I think it is really good and I don't always have the, I mean, I think earlier on in my career I did have much more of a community or I felt that I did in the sense of a community where like, , you know, we're all kind of in the same boat.

[00:23:39] We're all making work together. Mm-hmm. and we're kind of feeding off of each other. Uh, maybe less so now, just because, you know, we're older. Yeah. Where everybody's kind of like on their own path, you know, a lot of those people, you know, aren't making art anymore. But I think it is crucial and, you know, and when I do get the opportunity to be around other people, I realize how important it is.

[00:23:57] But it's very easy to kind of get wrapped up in your own [00:24:00] head and your own space and not think about that. And it just takes a little reminder sometime. Were you

[00:24:07] Tyler: at this time, like in Miami and Pratt, like where did you know, like what type of art you wanted to focus on? Was that like, I'm gonna do painting and that's, that's what I, I feel comfortable with or gravitate towards?

[00:24:23] Or were you exploring other mediums as well? I,

[00:24:28] Emilio: from very early on, I'd always made a lot of drawings, so I loved. . I loved drawing for the immediacy of the mark. Mm-hmm. , and I always like, I've always loved works on paper because, you know, especially like, you know, just pen and ink stuff because it's really like a direct connection from your brain through your hand.

[00:24:43] Yeah. And directly onto the piece of paper. So drawing was also was very big for me, and I loved painting just for the expressive quality. Mm-hmm. of the material. Like no two brush strokes are ever alike, you know? Yeah. Like, oh, there's a lot of little mini accidents that happen there as colors are blending together [00:25:00] that you can't control, but they, you know, they surprise you every time.

[00:25:03] So I'd always really kind of focused on that, you know, of course I'd taken some sculpture classes, I'd made things, but the way that I was working for a very long time had a lot to do with kind of being in the moment. Mm-hmm. and sculpture doesn't give you that opportunity as much. I think, you know, depending on what it is that you're doing, because you.

[00:25:24] Plan it out. You have to plan it out. You have to build it instead. I've always been sort of more of like, kind of like a, you know, go with the flow kind of approach to making work where it's more on, more based on, um, intuition on your, on intuition, your feelings, um, you know, and, and, and seeing what happens, like being part of the conversation.

[00:25:43] Mm-hmm. , you know, being a participant, not sole, solely the creator. It,

[00:25:48] Tyler: it sounds like a great interlude into surfing here, , you know, cuz there's, you know, there's so many similarities I find. Yeah. Between those two and the way you just [00:26:00]described it, right? Like no brushstroke is the same, no wave is the same.

[00:26:03] No, exactly. You know, like surfing you, you can think about how you want to surf away, but mm-hmm. , you can't really plan it. Like, it, it can, you have to work with what you have. Exactly. You.

[00:26:15] Emilio: I mean, for me, surfing, I'd always grown up near the water. Yeah. There's no real surf in Miami. Uh, but I grew up couple times a year.

[00:26:22] Couple times a year, but I never surfed on those few times a year. Yeah. You know, we also didn't have like, surf line to know when those days were gonna happen either. And I didn't, wasn't living on South Beach, but um, I, uh, I grew up on the water, you know, fishing, sailing, water, skiing. Mm-hmm. . And then in my right when I moved back to Miami after college, I moved to this building.

[00:26:44] I was living on Biscayne Bay and there was this French guy who was a windsurfer mm-hmm. . And he, I, I, first day I moved there, I see this guy just flying across the bay. And when he came back in I was like, I was like, dude, I need to, I want to be your friend and I need to learn how to do this. This is like fascinating.

[00:26:58] And that was my first obsession, [00:27:00] um, later when I moved to So, so you were a windsurfer

[00:27:02] Tyler: first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Just at the tail end of its popularity

[00:27:07] Emilio: too, it sounds like. Well people were just starting to kite at that time. Yeah. Cause I moved back here in 98. Yeah. Um, and even this guy ended up moving to Hawaii, even went there and went surfed with him a little bit there.

[00:27:17] And like I, I remember seeing, you know, Robby Nash like on like testing out his kites and like doing these insane jumps and it was really, it was, it was pretty, you know, mind boggling to see that at the time. I mean now you see it a lot more often. Yeah. But Robby

[00:27:30] Tyler: Nash is like god of

[00:27:33] Emilio: windsurfing, you know.

[00:27:34] Oh well. And also like, and to surfing. And I remember all of the, uh, you know, all the magazines I would see of like Robby Nash, you know, riding Pi Yahi on his, on his windsurfer, like, like with a helicopter in the, in the, in the shot. I mean, it's insane. Um, but, so I'd always been attracted to, I've, the ocean has always been kind of like my, my place.

[00:27:52] Yeah. And I can tell you, as a kid. I re I, I can, I can picture it right now, laying on the floor of the family room [00:28:00] watching like Wide World of Sports. I must have been like 10 or something like that. They had, I'm guessing it could have been like, you know, the Sunset Beach, you know, contest or something.

[00:28:10] Probably the Duke

[00:28:11] Tyler: Invitational probably, yeah. Been

[00:28:13] Emilio: one of those things. Yeah. And I just remember seeing somebody standing up on a wave, you know, a giant wave and he is like in the barrel and I was like, man, that is just the coolest thing. Like, I, like, I wanted, I want to do that at some point in my life.

[00:28:27] You know, there's something about having that perspective. Mm-hmm. , I mean already waves fascinate me to begin with, but that perspective of standing on this like piece of energy that's been traveling all these thousands of miles, um, has always fascinated me. So I got into surfing when I moved here because I just happened to.

[00:28:44] you know, one of the first people I met was a surfer. So I, so we,

[00:28:47] Tyler: we Oh, really? Sort of who, so who, who is that? This

[00:28:50] Emilio: is a friend of mine named Jay Davis, uh, who's an artist. And, um, we ended up, uh, you know, we ended up working together and then, uh, sharing, like we're in the same [00:29:00]studio building and he had a car.

[00:29:02] Yeah. And so we started, you know, going out to the beach and that's how, that's how I picked it up. But back to your, what you were saying about that connection. Yeah, it's exactly that. And I'd been working in this way, this idea of like, working with what you have. Mm-hmm. , I would even limit, you know, colors and materials sometimes.

[00:29:19] Yeah. Because I didn't want to have too many choices. I wanted to, you know, have to react intuitively and in the moment to things. And so, you know, when it came to surfing, it was, you know, it was like, it really clicked. I was like, this is exactly what it is. And in reference to style. Yeah. Um, you know, I have, everybody has their own, I, I've used handwriting as a, as an example, or your, or your signature.

[00:29:42] Everybody has. Their way of writing, their way of signing their name. Some of them are more elegant than others, you know, some of them are, are, are just chicken scratch, right? Yeah. And same for being on a wave. You've got this thing, there's only so much you can do with it, but everybody's going to [00:30:00] kind of react intuitively in their own way, you know, so it's not just sanding up on a wave and actually riding it, but even just being in the ocean, you've got forces that are pushing and pulling and your body reacts intuitively.

[00:30:11] And some people do it more gracefully than others. Not to say that I do it gracefully, but

[00:30:14] Tyler: I'm just . I like to think that my surfing's more graceful than my signature . Oh, well that's

[00:30:19] Emilio: good. .

[00:30:22] Tyler: So, so what, let me ask then, like, you, you came up here 98. Mm-hmm. to, to kind of New York, back up to New York. What, what caused that?

[00:30:33] Like how did, how did you go then from like being in Miami? Especially like nineties, like art scene was starting to, to to bloom there. Um, you know, and then why come to New York then when you could be in nice, warm weather and uh, be close to everything? Well,

[00:30:51] Emilio: I, I think that I, again, like, there were like some key people in my life and, um, Miami, like that scene was [00:31:00] actually quite, quite small.

[00:31:01] Yeah. A lot of them were people from New York or had Right contacts with New York. And so my, my last year of school, my thesis professor who, um, was, had a nonprofit performing arts organization, uh, in Miami, she was from New York. And through that group I met a lot of sort of New Yorkers, some gallery people, different things like that.

[00:31:20] So already I was like, and I had the confidence because like, you know, I mean, Miami was a small pond at the time. I thought I was So you fell, I thought I was hot shit, you know? Yeah. But of course, like, you know, I've, that was all tempered, eventually , but, um, . But, uh, she really, she, one of the things like, again, like that confidence.

[00:31:37] Yeah. The day that school ended, she pulled me aside and she said, Hey, I need to talk to you. And I mean, literally like class ended was our last day I'd graduated. She said, I want to buy a painting from you. Oh, wow. That was a huge thing for me. That's crazy. That was like, I mean, that was, that was massive.

[00:31:55] You know, that wasn't just about the money, but it was like, I was like, wow, like I [00:32:00] respect this person. She's incredibly, she's brilliant. She's smart, she's taught me so much, and she really believes in me. She saw something in you. She saw, so she saw something just like my art teacher in high school did.

[00:32:11] And then I ended up, I mean I've, I've worked at, you know, bars and stuff like that and I can tell you crazy.

[00:32:18] Tyler: I was gonna ask you what your first job was when you came up here. What was your first job?

[00:32:22] Emilio: Well, I was still in Miami actually. Oh no, I'm not done. But then, but then, so fast forward like a couple years, I ended up working at a, um, , uh, at a, at a university, uh, gallery.

[00:32:35] And the director went on to become like the head of Christie's here. Oh, wow. And like, you know, now she's doing other stuff, but she, um, she had a lot of contacts in New York and we were bringing exhibitions from galleries and from nonprofit arts, you know, spaces here in New York to Miami. So all of a sudden I started network to meet networking and networking and, and, and meeting all these different people.

[00:32:57] So that by the time I realized, like, you know, [00:33:00] New York was really the place I had to go. Mm-hmm. , I didn't come up here, you know, with a gallery or a show or anything like that, but I knew a few people and I was able to get work in the art world. Mm-hmm. , you know, I started working at galleries, I worked in museums, you know, I did some art handling.

[00:33:13] Yeah. Um, and through there I started building my network and it was just the, it was just the right time. Like, I didn't want to, I felt like Miami was limiting. Mm-hmm. , um, in a lot of ways. You know, for me, like if I really, you know, wanted to pursue this as a career. Yeah. Uh, and I wanted to figure out a way to not have another job and just live off my work.

[00:33:33] Tyler: So when you came up here, were you able to live off your work? Or how, how much of that struggle was there at the beginning then coming back up here and trying to, to make it? Well, I mean, it took as

[00:33:45] Emilio: an artist, I mean, it took a good, probably like, I wanna say like six, six years of like, you know, doing all kinds of different jobs.

[00:33:53] You know, I've worked in tv, film, you know, art, handling,

[00:33:56] Tyler: whatever. What's that moment like then? Like, I'm very curious, [00:34:00] like, cuz I, I've just had steady jobs, normal jobs, like nothing of in the creative inde, you know, you know ventures, where's that point? Like, what's it like when you're like, I don't need to work here anymore.

[00:34:15] I can just sell my art. I can just do my art. Holy crap. I could just do my art. Like, that's how I imagine it must be. Is it like gradual or was it like a certain

[00:34:25] Emilio: moment in, in my case, I think it was gradual. Mm-hmm. . So by the, you know, before I was completely supporting myself on my work, you know, I'd, I'd had, I'd had pretty good luck, I guess.

[00:34:37] Yeah. Um, and I'd been doing stuff here. I did some, some shows in Italy. Mm-hmm. and I was selling work and I was, at that time I was working, you know, for, I've worked for Comedy Central and for MTV for like, a short period of time, but like doing like, you know, set carpentry and that sort of thing. Yeah. And those jobs were like sort of these jobs that like, you'd work your ass off for, you know, a week or two.

[00:34:58] Yeah. And then you [00:35:00] wouldn't have, then you'd be off for, for like a couple weeks. And that was kind of a perfect schedule. And I just remember getting to the point where I was like, I think that if I stop the doing these freelance gigs and I really just dedicate the rest of my time to making my artwork, I think I could probably pull it off.

[00:35:17] So it was a very gradual thing. It wasn't like, you know, I didn't like hit, hit the big time, you know, anything like that. But it was enough for me to cover my rent and, you know, pay for my studio in Williamsburg. And, you know, I had roommates, you know, and what is my studio now? Uh, was the loft that I lived in.

[00:35:32] Tyler: So let me ask, like, what was Williamsburg like in the late nineties, early two

[00:35:37] Emilio: thousands? Well, my rent for a one bedroom apartment was 400 bucks a month. . And my studio, I think might have been like, yeah, it might have been like 150 bucks, . It was insane. And then I moved out to, to Bushwick, to the loft where I have my, my studio now.

[00:35:53] And that, you know, even then, I mean, I think we're, there was three of us, I think we were paying like 600 bucks a [00:36:00] month. , you know, man, I mean, it's a different, it's a different world. I mean, New York has gotten, I don't know, you know, it's gotten been so expensive. It's, I don't even know how young artists could really afford to even be here.

[00:36:10] I don't know.

[00:36:10] Tyler: I mean, do they even need to be here? Is

[00:36:14] Emilio: that, that's a good question. Do I need to be here? Yeah.

[00:36:16] Tyler: Honestly. Well, I wonder almost question like, do artists need to be in New York in order to make it now because we're so connected, you know, via online. Like, you really don't need to.

[00:36:29] Emilio: I mean, it, it, I think it depends.

[00:36:31] I mean, to say the art world, it's so broad. It's to say like, you know, food, like, there's tons of different types of food. Like the art world has like all of these different strata, like, you know, some of them intersect. Mm-hmm. , others don't have anything to do with each other. Um, there's probably artists that are wildly successful, uh, that sell a ton of work and make a ton of money that we've never even heard of because it's like the person who paints, I don't know, like calendars or mug like [00:37:00] mugs or something like that, you know?

[00:37:01] But that's their niche. So who knows? I think the, the contemporary art world, I mean, New York I think has always been sort of the center of the contemporary art world. Yeah. Um, so in order, To be part of that. I mean, it kind of, it helps to be here.

[00:37:15] Tyler: Well, how much then is, is the networking, I mean, that's from what it, it sounds like from many people I've talked to, like it's so important to, to have those connections.

[00:37:26] Right? Like you've been very fortunate to have had like those people that have given you that, that confidence and, and also kind of the, the opportunities, like how important is the networking and is that an art form into

[00:37:41] Emilio: itself? I think, I think it is. I mean, I think you have to, you have to use everything that you have available Yeah.

[00:37:47] To be successful, you know, and so when I've, when I talk to young artists or students, I, I, I've always, I don't think that there's one set formula, you know, to be successful. But there's certainly things that you can do to [00:38:00] improve your. , you know, I think number one is that you need to be making work all the time, which doesn't mean that you have to be making work for an exhibition.

[00:38:07] Mm-hmm. , like you shouldn't feel pressured to like have something going on. But if you're working and you're developing your work, then you have something to say. Yeah. If you can't say you're an artist and then not do anything, you know what I mean? So that's tho so doing that and then as you're doing that, that you're also building confidence.

[00:38:24] Mm-hmm. in your own, in your own work, which makes it easier for you to speak about it. You know, you have to use every opportunity you can, you know, not be annoying. Yeah. , you know, but you gotta use, use those

[00:38:34] Tyler: opportunities. You have an art form, right? Yeah. You have to, to humble brag. Yeah. You need to be able to humble

[00:38:38] Emilio: brag.

[00:38:39] You know, you have to be able to, you know, you have to use those opportunities and practice like, you know, it takes practice to be able to just sit down and have a conversation and not, you know, not get too self-conscious or, you know, at least know what you're talking about. So like, these are all like little things that you can do, things that you can have in your toolbox that can actually get you.

[00:38:57] put you in a better, I guess, put you in a better [00:39:00] position to potentially Yeah. Have some kind of success. It's not a guarantee. Mm-hmm. , but at least at the end of the day, if you did all of those things and let's say things don't go the the way that you'd like them to, or things didn't work out, at least you can look back and say, well, you know what?

[00:39:13] I really did put everything I could into this thing, as opposed to looking back and saying, well, shit, I should have, you know, I should have done, why didn't I do this? Or wouldn't I do that? Which, you know, it's normal. That's, we're human.

[00:39:25] Tyler: Yeah. But you're also like, you know, there there's also a difference of like someone who just wants to be famous and someone who wants to create.

[00:39:33] Yeah. You know, and that's like, that's also a whole, whole

[00:39:36] Emilio: discussion. And that's, you know, and I think even, you know, maybe more so now, yeah. I mean, I, I, um, I did, I was a visiting artist at a, at a residency program like a few years ago, and I was, I had to do studio visits with all the artists that were there.

[00:39:53] Yeah. And. overwhelmingly, the first question I got from them [00:40:00] was not, I mean, not how am I gonna get famous, but they're like, how do I get a gallery? I mean, these are like kids that are, you know, barely graduated or anything like that. Yeah. Which is a valid question, but you gotta focus on your work first.

[00:40:10] Yeah. You know, it's like, but it was like they're already like, you know, way ahead of themselves in terms of what they wanted to do, which, you know, maybe for some they can pull that off. Yeah. Because they do have talent and, and, and, and have the ease to be able to do those things. But for the most part, you know, I think that that's, uh, you know, I don't think it's realistic, you know, because that, you know, you never know, like all, you know, all of these people that are, that are famous, you know, I mean, some of them, you know, they did it, you know, they've done it through hard work, but they're, you know, it's luck.

[00:40:40] It's, it's, a lot of it is luck, but you have to, but the more you're out there, you know, when these doors open, you have to walk through them. Yeah. That's, that's the key, you know, you have, and a lot of it has to do with mindset, you know, and you can't really look at, you can't think about. You know, what somebody else is doing, you know, versus, you know, or thinking whether or not they deserve it or [00:41:00] not.

[00:41:00] It doesn't matter because you don't really know the whole context

[00:41:03] Tyler: Well, it's like surfing, right? Like if you, if you're thinking, I, I need to be a pro surfer, you know, one, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Two, you, you're really then not gonna focus on the actual act of surfing, which is the most important

[00:41:19] Emilio: thing.

[00:41:19] Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, for art school, I don't know what the, I don't know what the percentage is, but of, of who, when they graduate from art school, even work in the arts, let alone, let alone have a career selling work. Like working in the arts could be like, you know, working at a gallery or, you know, being, or teaching or something like that.

[00:41:35] It's very, it's a very small percentage. So you have to be realistic and also like, be super self-aware and understand where you, you know, where you fit in. Mm-hmm. , like, you know what, you know, you can, you know, you can make a certain type of work that doesn't have anything to do with the Hips gallery, you know?

[00:41:52] but, so you can't like focus on that thing. Like understand where, you know, where you think you're, you know, you've kind of fit into this like giant puzzle. [00:42:00] Cause it's huge. Yeah. And I always, I mean I really, I'm a true believer that everybody has an audience. Mm-hmm. somewhere. Yeah. You just gotta figure out, you gotta figure out,

[00:42:10] Tyler: you gotta find them Fuse.

[00:42:11] Look online. There's . Plenty of audiences, you know,

[00:42:15] Emilio: Well, no, I mean, but like an audience is actually gonna, you know, buy something and, you know, keep you going. .

[00:42:22] Tyler: Let me, I gotta ask, you know, then you had a brief dalliance with rollerblading, didn't you? With

[00:42:29] Emilio: rollerblading? Yeah. Didn't you like you getting

[00:42:31] Tyler: all this, this information to me?

[00:42:33] Oh, you know, I'm like James Lipton, man. Yeah. Like actor

[00:42:36] Emilio: studio. I just find this shit randomly. Well, I'm a, I can't really roller blade very well. But that was, you did roller blade for your job. . I had a job on roller blades promoting like a, it was like some. Chicken, fried chicken place , like in deep Brooklyn.

[00:42:54] Uh, and like, I mean, these were wild times back then and I didn't even know how to roller blade. And they basically gave , [00:43:00] they gave me roller blades. They gave me one of those like sandwich, one of those sandwich signs that you went and a handful of like these coupons for, for, for chicken. I was with my old roommate James.

[00:43:10] And, uh, we got there, we put these things on, we started handing these things out. We almost like, we got mobbed and we basically just like threw, we threw the, we threw the, the, the coupons up in the air and just got the hell out of there. I mean, it's like best I could on roller plates, punching

[00:43:24] Tyler: kids in like sandwich suit, you know, like, and roller handing out free coupon.

[00:43:29] It was ridiculous. , I had to ask. I was like reading that. This guy. Roller bladed. All

[00:43:35] Emilio: right, .

[00:43:39] Tyler: Um, so, so then surfing, right? Like, let's get into the important stuff. The art is like whatever, you know, the surfing is a priority here. Your, your, your friend had, you know, had kind of gotten you into it. What, where did you first go to surf?

[00:43:54] What were the first beaches? So how did, how did you get introduced then?

[00:43:58] Emilio: So, [00:44:00] like I said, he's from South Carolina and we, he's an artist. And yeah, we became, I mean, really like, we connected like within the first couple of days that I'd moved back to New York and, uh, we would go, back, then we would go to Gilgo.

[00:44:11] Yeah. All the time. We never went to Rockaway at first, a sketch, then .

[00:44:15] Tyler: Yeah, I guess maybe that was it. You don't wanna leave your car

[00:44:17] Emilio: out. Um, so we would go to Gilgo and, you know, like, like a lot of beginners, I probably made the stupid mistake of, you know, trying to surf a board that was too small for me.

[00:44:28] Mm-hmm. . Um, so. , you'd think that after 20 years I'd probably be a better surfer, and I, and, and if I'm not, it's because I didn't have the right boards to start off with. But still, it didn't matter. Like, I mean, for me, that was just, that was the thing. Like I just, I never gave up. Like I, I mean, I ate shit for years, you know, and, and like, you know, you'd have like a little bit of progress and then like, you know, a couple of steps forward and like, you know, many more steps back.

[00:44:52] Uh, but I always loved it. I was always happy when I got outta the water.

[00:44:55] Tyler: Did you find that surfing and being a surfer in New York [00:45:00] helped open doors with the art world at all? Did it, or at least connect with certain other artists? Because there's like, oh, a long list of incredible artists who happened to surf, you know?

[00:45:09] Emilio: Yeah. And even like, I mean, it, it still opens doors, you know? Yeah. It's opened doors with a lot of different people just because, you know, you don't automatically got you on this podcast. Yeah, exactly. You don't automatically like, sort of assume that you know that people are surfers living in New York City and then like when you, when you come across one, there's like this sort of, this common bond, um,

[00:45:30] So, you know, for the work, I think that as far as the art world's concerned, I mean, I think that it, you know, it just meshes very well with my process. Yeah. Um, so that just, it was just automatic, you know, so it's hard for me not to mention it mm-hmm. , you know, within the context of my work, although I don't, it's, I don't, it's not about surfing at all.

[00:45:51] Yeah. Uh, so, you know, I, I try to like, you know, not get too excited sometimes to talk about surfing because I'm trying to be more serious about , you know, what I'm doing. [00:46:00]Um, but I always, I do use it as a, as, as an example of like that idea of being in the moment. A lot of times when I do studio visits, you know, most people aren't surfers, but, you know, a lot of people ski.

[00:46:10] Yeah. You know, and it's kind of the same thing, you know, when you go down a mountain, you're reacting intuitively to whatever the terrain is there. And although the mountain isn't moving, yeah. You know, you can do that same run a bunch of times, but it's never gonna be exactly the same. So then

[00:46:25] Tyler: how. , how did it affect your style of art?

[00:46:29] Like, did it, you know, in what way would you say that surfing has seeped in, you know, to, to the, your style?

[00:46:36] Emilio: I don't think that it's visually, I don't think that it's really, I don't know that that's the best way to put it. Like, for me, I think it's helped me maybe understand my process a little bit more.

[00:46:48] Mm-hmm. And granted, and some of the stuff that I do does, you know, some, you know, some relate it to, you know, there's a lot of movement. Yeah. You know, so some people see water, um, you know, [00:47:00] it's, they're connected for sure. Yeah. I mean, but I think it's helped me understand, and actually it's funny, I did a, um, I did a public commission for the M T A I did a train station Yeah.

[00:47:09] Out in Brooklyn. Mm-hmm. . And initially I had been, I was a finalist for, for a different station and I didn't get, uh, up in the Bronx, I didn't get it. And they ended up giving me this other station. on the way out to Coney Island. Ah-huh. Because they knew that I was a surfer and that I was connect. I was like, you know, and there's a lot of movement in my work and they've, you know, one of the curators said, told me that specifically.

[00:47:35] They're like, it just made more sense. That's

[00:47:37] Tyler: awesome. Yeah. That's so cool. How did you meet your partner?

[00:47:43] Emilio: So we met she, cuz

[00:47:46] Tyler: it seems like she's had quite an impact on your, your career as well, right? She, she

[00:47:50] Emilio: certainly supported me Yeah. And, and put up with me over the years. . Uh, but yeah, Mickayla, she's, um, she's, she's from Italy and when I met her the first time, she was working [00:48:00] as the, um, as the US editor for a contemporary, an Italian contemporary art magazine.

[00:48:05] Mm-hmm. . And they ended prior to me ever knowing her. They, um, they, uh, reviewed one of my sh one of my first shows in New York. Really? And I ended up meeting her one day when I went to the gallery, she was there. I had no idea who she was. But the, the, the gallerist at the time, this is a small gallery, you know, to kind of like grease the wheels a little bit.

[00:48:30] He gave her a drawing to thank her. Oh wow. For having had somebody write about my show and I walk in, she's there, they introduced us and she's like, oh, thank you so much for the drawing. And I was like, wow. I was like, what, what wrong? . I had no idea. I find out later that, that, uh, that this guy had given her a drawing and then that was it.

[00:48:49] We never saw each other again for about a year. Wow. And then we reconnected with, and we had, you know, obviously like being in the New York art world, we had a lot of friends in common. We reconnected about a year later, [00:49:00] um, at an opening, and she came over for a studio visit. We started to spend time together and she's, we've been together for.

[00:49:08] Long time. So

[00:49:09] Tyler: she's figures into this one story I wanted you to tell about how you were able to get representation from Gallery Lelong because it, it's, it's a, it's a longer story actually than just showing up to the gallery. Yeah. And, and she kind of like, well, she put the crack on You real, crack the whip.

[00:49:28] Almost .

[00:49:30] Emilio: Well, I mean, the story, the story is, um, that she had been, she was co-curating an exhibition in Italy. Yeah. Uh, in Verona. And I wasn't in it. And this particular exhibition was a group show, um, that this family who had, you know, there were our collectors, they were opening up this gallery space. They really wanted somebody from New York.

[00:49:55] They wanted a New York curator to work with them. Obviously she was an easy choice [00:50:00] because she also spoke Italian, but they also wanted somebody who had. Contacts and were was gonna be able to get works from, from major galleries. Uh, and the show was actually perfect. It was called, um, Neo Baroque. And, uh, the, my work was, you know, really fit into the pro into the show.

[00:50:19] Yeah. But she's very professional and, and she felt that it wouldn't be cool to include me Yeah. In this exhibition. And at the last minute, one of their artists had pulled out. Well, and this person was gonna do this giant site specific wall drawing or wall piece, whatever. Yeah. Uh, at the gallery. Mm-hmm. , it was like 60 feet long.

[00:50:42] And this dude pulls out at the last second because he had a conflict with another gallery that he was working with. And, um, so, so she

[00:50:49] Tyler: didn't. , you know, take a bat to his knee or

[00:50:51] Emilio: anything, right? ? No, no, not at all. And actually it was her co-curator said, she's like, we gotta put, we gotta put e in the show.

[00:50:57] Wow. Like, he's like, you know, he's per, he could [00:51:00] totally do it. And, and so of, she was in Italy at the time, she called me up, I remember she woke me up, she's like, you're in the show. And then she hung up the phone. . How, how much

[00:51:08] Tyler: did you have to prepare for that? How much time?

[00:51:10] Emilio: Um, you know, I don't recall. Well, the piece was done there on, on site.

[00:51:15] Yeah. But to prepare , I don't, you know, I don't remember. That was in 2005. But long story short, I did that exhibition. Yeah. Uh, they did a, an incredible catalog. And one of the artists in the show also showed with Gallery Lelong. Yeah. And, um, I was with the, um, with the co-curator one day and Chelsea just going to shows.

[00:51:36] And at the time I had left that small gallery that I'd been working with. Mm-hmm. . And I just kind of, you know, I, I felt like I was in a place where I was gonna be able to, , but find something better. Yeah. Um, and we went to the long to go drop off the, uh, the catalog and I met the director there, um, and she gave him the book and she said, oh, you know, this is Emilio, you know, he's in, he was also in the show.

[00:51:58] He was like, oh yeah, look great. That's [00:52:00] fairly nice. And he kind of flipped through the book and I was like, oh yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what I do. And he was like, very polite and very nice. Um, we're still dear friends, and I ask him the story, he's like, I have no recollection of this whatsoever.

[00:52:11] But, uh, but when we left, um, Joyce, uh, the, the co-curator from the show, she said, she's like, you know, he really reacted to your work . I was like, really? I was like, I don't think so. I was like, I don't, she's like, I'm gonna call him and tell him that he should really do a studio visit now, before you get snatched up by somebody else,

[00:52:30] And it is true that at that time I was kind of, I was talking to another gallery, um, and they, he came over. This is like, you know, 2000. five. Mm-hmm. , 2006, 2006, if I recall. Uh, he came over to do a studio visit and it just so happened that that particular gallery was, they were looking for a younger app, male, abstract painter.

[00:52:53] I mean, it was very specific.

[00:52:55] Tyler: I didn't know that it was like a type cat, like a

[00:52:57] Emilio: casting. I mean, I think in, in, in some [00:53:00] cases we're looking

[00:53:00] Tyler: for a young male, well, they were thinking they were brownish hair, good looking, you know. Yeah. Surfs a little.

[00:53:07] Emilio: Well, they found it . Uh, so, well, the hair's not brown anymore, anymore.

[00:53:11] Tyler: It's silver now, but back then, you know, .

[00:53:13] Emilio: But, uh, yeah, so I mean, I mean, maybe it wasn't that specific, but basically, you know, that was like something in their program that they didn't have mm-hmm. and they were looking for, and I just really hit it off with this. His boss came over, we, you know, we've had a conversation.

[00:53:29] You know, I think that they, they liked what they saw. I kind of fit the bill, you know, I was able to talk about the work and they, they said that they, you know, they asked me if I wanted to be represented by them. So that was a huge, I mean, that was huge for my career. I mean, it changed, it changed my life, really.

[00:53:44] Um, explain

[00:53:45] Tyler: to our listeners like the prominence of Lelong Gallery. Lelong

[00:53:50] Emilio: in, it's a very, I mean, it's a, it's a historic gallery. Mm-hmm. , so, you know, it's probably, you know, it's not the hippest gallery. Yeah. You know, but it's a gallery that's very well respected, you know, you know, [00:54:00] based in, in, in Paris. Um, the Daniel Lelong who founded the gallery is an art world legend.

[00:54:07] Yeah. I mean, this guy, you know, worked with, you know, with Francis Bacon, with Miro, like all of these, I mean, it's. , you name art. He is art history on two legs. Yeah. Um, and he's just like, just like a lovely, incredible person. And I thankfully, even though by the time that I started working with the gallery, he wasn't really super involved.

[00:54:26] But because I did a couple of shows with them in, in France, in Paris, um, I got a chance to spend some time with him. And, you know, I mean, that's one of the, one of the best things that, I mean, there's many thing great things that came out of that experience working with the gallery, but getting to know him mm-hmm.

[00:54:41] And be able to say that he's a friend was really, really special. Because all of a sudden, like these things, these pictures and these books that I'd looked at when I was a kid, like, they're like, the degrees of separation start to like shrink. And you're like, oh my God. Like this is like, you know, I can, you know, I'm having a conversation with the person who gave this person a show.

[00:54:58] Like, how's that poss like, [00:55:00] you know, stuff that you would never, never imagine. It's humbling. Yeah. So that was, it was a huge, it was a huge deal for me. Um, I think that, . I was ni this is also like before the financial crisis. Yeah. Which kind of changed a lot of things. Yeah. But, um, I was also quite naive, I think at the time.

[00:55:16] Imagine, you know, for me that was like, I mean that was like a home run that I got these guys and they, I'll never forget we were sitting at my studio or acro like across the table from each other and they said, look, we wanna represent you and we want to basically, you know, make your life easy so that all you need to really work worry about is making artwork

[00:55:37] Right. So like that's music to my ears, . And I thought, like at the naively, I was like, man, I've arrived. Like, that's it. Yeah. Like everything from here on out. Is this icing on the cake? Of course. That's just not true. No. And you know, the stakes get higher. You know, you, um, you know, you have to work. The hustle never ends.

[00:55:56] No. Um, you know, and, but at the time I was like, oh, look like there's all these other [00:56:00] gal, these other artists that have been with this gallery for a really long time, like, Like that's, you know, this could be me and yeah, this is it, blah, blah,

[00:56:06] Tyler: blah. Right? Like, this is where you're gonna be for the

[00:56:08] Emilio: most of your life.

[00:56:08] It's, but it's a relationship like any other. Mm-hmm. things change within the relationship. The art world changed a lot, you know, with the financial crisis. You know, I've worked with them for about 10 years and, you know, I've got work into, you know, a bunch of different institutions, different museums. I had the oppor, I did three solo shows here, um, a couple in, in, in, in Paris, and it opened up a lot of doors.

[00:56:31] And, you know, really, if it wasn't for them, I don't know that I would be able to, you know, survive independently. Yeah. For, for the time that I've, that I've been able to do. And I've, you know, once I left the gallery, uh, I've, you know, I started just working. I was doing a lot more public art. Mm-hmm. stuff. So I did the, the project with the, um, with the mta.

[00:56:53] I did a couple of big video installations, one in Times Square and one at the Kennedy Center in dc and, [00:57:00] through the years of working with the gallery, I met, I knew a lot of art advisors, um, who were working with big developers and different clients. So I was doing a lot of big commissions all the while kind of knowing that that body of work had kind of, I'd kind of done everything that I could with it.

[00:57:15] Mm-hmm. and I knew deep down that I needed to do something else, but I just wasn't sure what that was gonna be. I just needed to a shift because that whole idea of uh, of um, you know, the escape Yeah. Like the original reasons, like one of the original reasons why I got into making artwork like is that excitement, that escape, that being able to go to another world just wasn't happening for me anymore.

[00:57:38] And so I needed a challenge to do, to try and do something else. And then, you know, I started playing around in 2019 with making these new paintings are much more sort of traditional. Not, not with the technique that I'd been working with for some, for 20 years. And, uh, and then the pandemic happened and I just kind of, you know, shut in and started creating.

[00:57:57] Well,

[00:57:57] Tyler: you left, just flew long right around. [00:58:00] That was in 2015,

[00:58:01] Emilio: roughly? Yeah, it was 2015, 16.

[00:58:04] Tyler: So like, uh, our common friend Jeremy said like, you know, it's really brave what you did, like leaving in gallery, but then going in a different direction with your art. Like not staying in the same style, trying a new style, trying something new out.

[00:58:22] Like how, how has that process been trying to work out like the new direction, the new

[00:58:29] Emilio: challenge? Well, at first, I mean, it, it was, it was scary because, you know, I'm sort of really linked, I mean my work, that previous body of work, which I still do make those paintings occasionally. , it's a very kind of specific kind of work.

[00:58:45] It's very recognizable. Mm-hmm. . So for the people, and that's kind of what I, you know, what my career was kind of based on was that, that very specific kind of work and um, to do something else. You know, some people are like, man, are you sure you want to do that? Like, you know, I just felt [00:59:00] inside that I had to do something.

[00:59:02] I just had to try something different. And, you know, I've always been much more, um, inspired by more sort of like classical mm-hmm. painting, you know, more traditional painting in general and the landscape and, and and whatnot. And so I was like, I wanna make more traditional paintings, you know, with oil on linen and in like, you know, and just make these other, this other work that's gonna challenge me to do something else.

[00:59:25] Like I know how to make these other paintings and I'll continue to make them. But, um, this is just something that I feel I needed to do. And it was also, whereas that previous work was about intuition. Mm-hmm. and being a moment. Mm-hmm. , there is still some of that in this new work, but I think that. . As I've gotten a little bit older, I'm a little bit more introspective.

[00:59:42] Mm-hmm. . And I think I need to slow down a little bit in my mind and think a little bit more. Mm-hmm. when I'm making work. And that the, just painting and oil, it's a much slower process. It kind of does all of those things. It's much more meditative. Um, you know, I got, [01:00:00] you know, during, I'd always kind of, you know, dabbled, but like during the pandemic I really started, you know, I started meditating a lot.

[01:00:06] Mm-hmm. . Um, it's really sort of helped sort of focus me into something different because I thought, and, and now, and looking back, I mean at first like, um, if you see the first ones there were like, you know, a lot of men ended up in the trash . But eventually I kind of got to something that I felt was a good sort of departure point.

[01:00:23] Tyler: Should have went dumpster diving there. . It's kidding. . Well, like, then let me ask like then like that you're in the painting realm and it feels like. , the art world currently is really consuming digital art and structure and performative art almost. And, and what I, I wonder then is, is there space still for painting in the art world?

[01:00:52] Like, does, does the art world still react as strongly to painting as it, as it does to NFTs right now? Or any of these [01:01:00] other kind of crazy kind of

[01:01:02] Emilio: offshoots? No, I think absolutely. I mean, you know, I'm not saying this because I'm a painter, but I think that there's, there's something, you know, I NFTs are, are a whole other thing.

[01:01:12] It's like a whole other ecosystem. Yeah. You know, it's, I'm not that. I think in order to be successful with NFTs, you also have to be part of that, that community mm-hmm. in order to do that stuff. I don't get particularly excited about making digital work. Yeah. Because I like the physicality of materials.

[01:01:30] Um, and I think that, I can't, you know, there's reasons why people like stand in line, you know, you know, to, to go and see paintings that are hundreds of years old and pay money Yeah. At a museum to go and do that. It's because what the painting offers that a digital work doesn't offer is that you're, I've always looked at paintings as a, as a time capsule.

[01:01:50] Yeah. You know, so when you're standing in front of that painting, whether it's an old master, whether it's one of my paintings or whatever, you're, you're looking at this painting, you're basically standing the same distance [01:02:00] away from the person who made this thing. Mm-hmm. , you know, so you're, there's something about that.

[01:02:05] There's an energy that's there in the work that doesn't exist on a screen. Yeah. So that's, you know, so I don't, I mean, you know, people still buy plenty of paintings, so I'm not, I'm not worried that people are gonna stop buying paintings. No, no.

[01:02:19] Tyler: It's just, it's, it's, it's funny just seeing what's on trend, I guess.

[01:02:22] Yeah. Like what, it seems like the, the, the hooray rah of a lot of stuff. It feels like, at least in the pop culture realm. Yeah. That, that attention. has, has gone to more ephemeral things, you know, things that are less permanent almost.

[01:02:39] Emilio: Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, man, I'm probably not the even the best person to ask because I'm, I don't try, I don't keep up with it.

[01:02:45] But I, I don't know, for me, it seems like, I don't hear people talking about NFTs nearly as much as they were a year ago, a year and a half ago or two years ago. Yeah. Crypto

[01:02:53] Tyler: pros, crypto bros don't have enough funds. Yeah, I guess so. You

[01:02:56] Emilio: know, so, so I don't know. I mean, I think that there's interesting things [01:03:00] that you can do with NFTs, you know, but you know, I, you know, I can only do so much.

[01:03:05] Yeah. And I also think like, it's also like a connection with surfing too. Like, you know, I came to surfing late. Mm-hmm. , you know, I've been surfing for, for 20 plus years now. I'm 50 now. I mean, I think I'll be able to keep surfing Yeah. For at least another 20, 30 years. Yeah. 20 or 30 years. But I want to catch as many waves as possible between now and those, like whenever I can't do it anymore, and I start thinking about that stuff.

[01:03:30] When it comes to paintings mm-hmm. , it's like, how many paintings am I, you know, do I have in me? Mm. Like, how many am I gonna be able to do? And that to me is way more interesting. You know, it's like, I like this idea of the development and also having developed a body of work for 20 years that, you know, if I look at the, if I show you the, the, the, the inception and then what, what they look like now, I mean, it's like, it's such an interesting evolution when I think about these new oil paintings that [01:04:00] I'm doing.

[01:04:00] Um, I can only start to like, imagine like, man, what are these things gonna look like in Yeah. Five years and 10 years in 20 years, you know? That's exciting. And so much of it is about being excited. You know? Let

[01:04:14] Tyler: me ask you then, like you're. I wanna discuss with you your idea of paradise, cuz you, you once stated that you, you started thinking about paradise and you have this idea of an idyllic place, but in your experience there's always a dark undercurrent that is happening and I, I was just kind of curious like how that factors into your work and your current work particularly.

[01:04:37] Well,

[01:04:37] Emilio: this, this, um, my work is not like, it's not specifically about one Yeah. One thing, but I like to, I like to call, like, you know, these themes just sort of departure points where it gives you, it gives the, the viewer and the person like some sort of point of reference to like start from, and then you can kind of go wherever you want.

[01:04:59] Yeah. You know, I [01:05:00] never tried to sort of put very specific things in my paintings because when they're more open to interpretation, I think it's just, it's more inviting to more people. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and it's just the way that I, you know, that I, I that I approach things, but talking about paradise, um, I've.

[01:05:17] I've traveled a lot, you know, in the Caribbean and in Central and South America. You know, I've spent a lot of time, I've, I've done a, a number of projects in Cuba. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I personally have always gravitated to the tropics. Yeah. Maybe because as I'm Cuban, I don't know. Um, but that's, that's, there's something about, there's like a, I don't know, there's like, it's, there's like a heat.

[01:05:39] I mean, besides the physical heat, there's like, you know, there's something, there's like, there's passion. There's all of this stuff there and incredible beauty. Like, you know, just the tropical landscape has always fascinated me just because of the diversity of all the different plants and trees and whatnot.

[01:05:54] Um, but sadly in all these places that to me are, I like, seem idyllic and [01:06:00] they, they do look like a paradise, you know, if you really scratch the surface, there's a lot of darkness and struggle and, and sadness. Mm-hmm. underneath. Um, and as I was starting to develop this new body of work, I, um, because in 2019 I did a project in Cuba for the Havana Biennial and along the Melancon on the ma.

[01:06:23] Yeah. Well, I, this is the second time I did it. So the first time was in 2015. Mm-hmm. completely different, you know, situation Obama was, was in office. Yeah. There was a lot of optimism. Mm-hmm. that Cuba was gonna change finally, after all this time. I mean, as much as I'm American Yeah. Like my Cuban identity is, it's huge.

[01:06:43] It's like a huge part. It's informed so much of who I am. Uh, so I can't, you know, I can't discount that at all. But there was a lot of optimism at the time, and I had an opportunity to do, to participate in this show that was called Behind the Wall. Mm-hmm. . And this was an outdoor exhibition [01:07:00] curated by, by a dear friend of mine who did these installations along the ma, which is like the big, um, sort of boulevard that runs along the water in Havana.

[01:07:08] And you've, it's like iconic, you've seen photos of like the waves crashing over the wall and all of that stuff. And so I, when I was asked to participate, I was a little hesitant, honestly, because even though I traveled to Cuba and I had family there, I didn't really want to participate in something that was sponsored by the government.

[01:07:26] Yeah. That was problematic for me. On the, on the flip side, I've got family there that have been sort of following my career. Mm-hmm. years. And you've had seen years, right? Years. You know, I'd met, no, no. I met some of 'em. I had a very close connection with them because my first trip to Cuba was in, um, what was, it was in 2000, I think.

[01:07:46] Yeah. Um, and I connected with all these people and, um, I was like, man, this is an opportunity to actually share what I do with these people that mm-hmm. , you know, I care so much about that are there, that are never gonna be able to see my work somewhere else [01:08:00] and or at least, you know, yeah. More or less. And not only that, as a kid growing up in Miami with this Cuban identity, I don't think that there was ever a time that I was in the water.

[01:08:13] In the ocean and didn't, even though maybe I wasn't looking in the direction of Cuba, but always like sort of thinking, God, just on the other side of the horizon, there's this place that has informed everything in my life. You know, like, you know, the roots just there. And so I get this opportunity to do this exhibition there on the Mak Now my artwork was gonna be facing in the other direction.

[01:08:40] Mm-hmm. , so looking towards, towards Florida, towards the United States. So I was like, man, this is really kind of like, you know, this is kind of a really beautiful idea. And so I created this piece and, um, shared it with my family. It was fantastic. I'll have to show you the, the photo that Yeah. That we took.

[01:08:58] That's like all these people in front of [01:09:00] this like 60 foot long. You know, mural at the time, I think it was like the biggest mural that's ever been. Wow. You know, exhibited and, you know, publicly in Cuba. And so I got invited again in 2019 by that same friend of mine. And, you know, circumstances were totally different.

[01:09:16] Mm-hmm. , the infrastructure was worse. There wasn't, you know, much support for this project. But I wanted to do something with the people, um, of the neighborhood, because previously I'd made the work here in New York Yeah. And sent it down there and we put it up in this case. I was like, that doesn't make any sense.

[01:09:33] Like, I want to, you know, and it's a very poor neighborhood. This particular neighbor, uh, sent Abana. Mm-hmm. . And, um, I thought, I was like, you know, let me do something with the people that are there so that they can have like a collective pride about this thing instead of just like some, some dude, you know, I'm a Cuban American guy who shows up and, you know, just kind of puts something up on a wall because nobody gets a chance to, to do anything on a.

[01:09:58] on a wall there, you know, for the [01:10:00] most part, you know? Yeah. And so I did this collaborative piece, uh, with, with the people from the neighborhood. And it was like this long, like a hundred foot long mural, didn't go as planned. . We had a lot of problems, , um, you know, namely government custom Yeah, government things.

[01:10:17] Tons of the materials got stuck in customs. I mean, I even had like a handwritten letter from the Minister of Culture inviting, inviting us to go there and do this thing thing. And they still couldn't get their shit together to get our stuff out of the , out of a warehouse. It wasn't that it was like tucked away somewhere else.

[01:10:32] The stuff arrived, but it was just being held at this warehouse and this random place. I even went there. Oh. And could see my stuff. . I could see my materials right there. . Geez. I even tried to bribe the guys there, , which I kind of, I mean, it was really, I actually felt bad afterwards. Yeah. Because I was like,

[01:10:50] I'm like, I was like, I have to get this stuff out. I'm like, what is, like, you know, this is, you know, bullshit. I'm from New York, man. We gotta make things happen. Yeah. And, uh, and so I tried, I tried to bribe these [01:11:00] guys and it was just like, it was total panic because like, sketchy, sketchy almost. Cuz you're like, well no, because I mean, any of these guys, like, you know, they would've been happy to have that money.

[01:11:08] Yeah. They really could have used it. But of course they're all looking at each other like, well if you take it, I'm gonna snitch on you. It was like, it was really, it opened. I mean, these are not things that I'm, you know, don't know about. Yeah. I under, I understand how everything works here and I understand how, how challenging it is.

[01:11:22] And it was just like, you know, it was just like the sadness. Um, and, and I had a lot of, I had three weeks to make this project, but I ended up having to do it in one week because for two weeks everything was stuck there and I had a lot of time to spend with myself, with family, with a bottle of rum.

[01:11:40] Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, and I kind of, I got into like a really dark place there. And, um, . When I came back, I was thinking a lot about that, and I was like, this is a, like, what are these new paintings gonna be about? Or at least like, I need a somewhere to start from. Yeah. And I started thinking [01:12:00] about that whole idea of like, what is really paradise?

[01:12:02] Is it real like, or Yeah. Is it, does it just exist in, in, in our heads it's

[01:12:06] Tyler: fantasy. Yeah. You know, it's, I cannot tell you how many times I've traveled to beautiful idyllic places that seem paradise and on surface, you know, you're there for like a, for the first week maybe, and you're like, everything's great.

[01:12:21] And then as you get to know people and you get to understand like, like there's so much more undercurrent, there's so much more happening below the surface that is, you know, people are struggling and people move to paradise thinking, right, I'm here, I'm in paradise. And then they don't realize. Oh, I just brought my shit with me to paradise.

[01:12:43] Yeah. Like I didn't, I'm everything's not gonna be perfect. Yeah. Because I still gotta deal with what I'm carrying, you know? And I can't tell you how many times I've met people who, who've done that. Yeah. You know, moved to paradise thinking everything's gonna be great, and then they still keep falling into the same trappings that they did back home.[01:13:00]

[01:13:00] Yeah. You know, there's no, paradise is a state of mind. It's not, uh, it's not a place really. Right. You know, you know, so the,

[01:13:08] Emilio: yeah. I mean, you're, I mean, you put it, put it perfectly. I mean, that was, and so that was one of the things that, um, that really kind of stuck with me from that trip. And there was just, I mean, having seen all of the, having gone to Cuba the first time in 2000, um, where the circumstances were pretty tough, um, then going back in 2015 and like actually seeing that like wow.

[01:13:32] Progress, right? I mean, the place had changed. Yeah. I mean, there was. Things that were available that weren't available before, like it was all this stuff, and then going back four years later and just seeing how all of that hope, all of that stuff had kind of disappeared. Mm-hmm. there was just like, you know, even just, you know, some of my family, like, I mean, there were, you know, in really, really tough spots and it's just, and it's such a, I mean, for me personally, it's such a [01:14:00]sad, sad thing.

[01:14:01] Um, I mean, not that, you know, there's a lot, lot, lot of problems all over the world, but this is one that I'm, you know, particularly close to because I have, I have a personal connection with, and it's just such a sad thing. I mean, that place is so incredible. It's beautiful. It's, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. It, there's so much culture.

[01:14:17] Yeah. The, you know, you go to Havana, it's a giant city with like incredible architecture, all this stuff, but half the stuff's falling apart. It's just like, it's depressing, man. it, it

[01:14:25] Tyler: was one, like my wife and I went right around. probably like, yeah, 2000, uh, 19 maybe. Mm-hmm. 18 or 19. And it's funny, like it just, yeah.

[01:14:35] Like I was like, holy crap. Like all these beautiful historic buildings are just crumbling and there's just no, and you, and then you go to some richer touristy areas Sure. And you see everything really nice. And then once you start walking along the melancon and you go one block in on certain areas, you know?

[01:14:53] Yeah. Like, oh shit.

[01:14:53] Emilio: Well, not to mention man, the kind of stuff that people are doing just to survive. Oh my gosh. And that's just like really, really sad man. It's, [01:15:00] it's really tough. You know, I saw some, I saw some really just like really sad, dark things on that trip. And um, you know, it's just like, I kind of, I mean, honestly, I have, I don't really have any desire to go back there anytime soon.

[01:15:17] You know? Not un not until something gives man. And, and it's very difficult because I, you know, I do know a lot of artists there. Yeah. I know artists that have gone to jail. You know, just for, just for expressing their, their views. I mean, my first, my first trip there was to work on a project, um, it was a research project about, um, the history of performance art in Cuba during the eighties.

[01:15:38] Oh, wow. And at that time, a lot of visual artists had been centered by the government. So they started doing performance art, but almost in a vacuum because there wasn't, like, you know, they didn't have a ton of information about other performance things happening. Nothing outside, nothing coming out of it

[01:15:52] Tyler: in the eighties either,

[01:15:53] Emilio: you know?

[01:15:53] Well, they didn't have a ton of information about other performances that were happening outside of Yeah. Of, of, of, of Havana. Like what was happening in the [01:16:00] United States or in Europe. Um, so a lot of these things developed, like, it sort of became very popular because it was this ephemeral artwork. And, uh, dear, dear friend of mine, uh, GL Novoa, who's a great Cuban artist, he had done a lot of performances at the time, and he came with this idea of like, doing this.

[01:16:17] this research trip to compile a chronology of all of the, the performances that took place between 1980 and 1990, because it just so happened that, that the, the, the, uh, the eighties were bookended by, you know, in the beginning, uh, censorship, more censorship than, than there was before. And then in the nineties, a lot of visual artists left Cuba and they went to Mexico, they went to Europe, and then eventually went to, went to, or some came from the United States.

[01:16:44] And so I, you know, I saw firsthand Yeah. How artists like me were being oppressed by government, you know, just out of fear. [01:17:00] Yeah. You know, and people that, you know, got, you know, for doing a performance got sent to jail with like, you know, with murderers and rapists and stuff. I mean, it's really, it was really crazy.

[01:17:09] That was a huge, huge, huge eye-opener for me because I'd always, you, you take everything for granted here. , you know, , we most certainly do. I mean, you go there and you're, there's a glass ceiling. There's only so much you can say or you can do, and you, you know, Cubans are, are like the, you know, heavy world, uh, heavyweight champions of, of uh, of exaggerating things.

[01:17:31] Mm-hmm. . So I'm like, man, I can't be that bad. You know? Right. Yeah. And your, he your mind, you're like, wow, is it really that bad? And then, you know, I went there and sure enough it was, yeah. I mean, we even got in trouble cause we didn't have permission to do what we were doing, to do this research and there was like a whole system of people, you know, sort of, um, you know, letting other people know what people were doing.

[01:17:54] And like, you had to be really, really careful.

[01:17:55] Tyler: Every block has someone that keeps an eye on Yeah. What's happening there. And they're [01:18:00] like an informant for the government, basically. Yeah. It's almost like a volunteer type of thing too. Yeah. Which is pretty wild.

[01:18:06] Emilio: I mean, I don't know how that works structured.

[01:18:07] I mean, I, I don't know if it's that much like that that now, but I mean, I'm sure I'm not, I'm not surprised, you know, I mean, just last, um, just recently, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of pro protest in Cuba, like in a way that they'd never seen before. Mm-hmm. and, and really like led by, by artists. And a lot of these guys got in really big trouble.

[01:18:28] Oof. Which is, which is wild. Like, you can never imagine. Like, I can never imagine that, you know, until you, until you see it firsthand and then you really realize, you know, how, how much you know, somebody really has to struggle just to survive. And,

[01:18:44] Tyler: and would you say that is what's been informing a lot of your work lately then?

[01:18:47] Kind of like that kind of, or at least that was a jumping off

[01:18:50] Emilio: point. Yeah. No, I mean, I mean that's like a, I mean, this was a much deeper sort of dive. Yeah, yeah. No, it was just more like, I mean, it was just more of a personal thing. Yeah. I mean, my work is not about Cuba. It's not me, but it does. No, no, [01:19:00] no, no.

[01:19:00] But, but I think that like that idea of the, of paradise. Yeah. Like what is paradise? You know, there's the darkness. underneath the surface of paradise, or maybe it's just underneath the surface of our, of us, of, of our own psyche. You know, it's inside of us. Yeah. So that was just kind of like, I just felt that that was kind of like an interesting place that I could start and people could maybe relate to.

[01:19:23] Yeah. I

[01:19:25] Tyler: really would love to keep continuing this conversation, but I feel like, you know, I know you have a time limit, but I, I have to end with one last question. You know, that our friend, uh, Jeremy had told me to ask you mm-hmm. about the time that you had a huge opening and you decided to go surfing instead, or in surfing right before it.

[01:19:45] Right. .

[01:19:47] Emilio: Well, that was like the best thing that you could do,

[01:19:49] Tyler: right? Yeah. I mean, so, so what was going on here? What happened because he's like, gotta ask

[01:19:54] Emilio: Amelia about that. Well, , well, Michele was really upset about me going, uh, [01:20:00] surfing because she's like, what if like, What if something happens to you like the day of like, this is like a big deal.

[01:20:04] Like this is like a big day. This is a

[01:20:06] Tyler: big, give us a frame of reference, like how the show

[01:20:08] Emilio: was. You know, I can't remember which. It was one of my solo shows at Lelong. It was, you know, I don't remember which one it was exactly, but there were waves that day. Like, I mean, look, there's something, there's something really special when you get an opportunity to do something like that.

[01:20:23] Yeah. And I'm very, very thankful. I've never taken that for granted. Just to be able to have a bunch of people, you know, come and see the fruits of your labor. Yeah. You know, I mean, it takes a lot to, to fill that space was actually quite large, so it was like a big chunk of time and effort that it took for me to make all of that work.

[01:20:40] So to be able to get all of that attention and, and, and have it be about you is pretty amazing. Um, you know, so that's already a good day. But,

[01:20:49] Tyler: but you know, but when you get up, you get waves. When you wake up, waves

[01:20:52] Emilio: up, and then there's waves. You're like, well, you gotta fuck, you gotta go, gotta go . You know?

[01:20:57] And so I, so I did. And you know, [01:21:00] but it's also one of those things too. It's like, you know what it, what it's like, like I could do, I could do both. Well, you know, how you feel after you've gone surfing. I'm like, you know, it's like you're buzzing, you're much more relaxed. I mean, you know, I've, I generally, I don't get super nervous Yeah.

[01:21:13] When it comes to, to openings and that sort of thing. I just, I, I, I enjoy it. Like, I mean, because these are, you know, opportunities that I'm super lucky to have mm-hmm. and I want to like, you know, soak it up and not be stressed out about it. But certainly, You know, there are some nerves involved. And so, you know, a little surf in the beginning takes early morning, like, totally takes the edge.

[01:21:32] And then you could tell people, you're like, oh yeah, I was surfing earlier today, .

[01:21:35] Tyler: You're like, oh, sorry, I gotta flex some sand outta my eyebrows. Exactly. Like, oh yeah,

[01:21:39] Emilio: why is your nose red like that? You know?

[01:21:41] Tyler: Oh my God, why did you have nasal drain all over the, you know, all over the artwork

[01:21:46] Emilio: on this. But I think, but I'll, I'll never, I think she had read some, like, there's a book, I can't remember what it was called, but there's some book, it's about an artist, and he is like going to his opening, but he gets like, hit by a cab and he dies,

[01:21:56] And, uh, and so she like had this like idea in her head. I mean, [01:22:00] but it's been that like there's, on multiple occasions there's been some sort of like occasion, like some big occasion, and I decide like, oh, I gotta go surfing first. like, like even if it. I mean, even if I'm leaving tomorrow to go on a surf trip and there's waves today, you gotta go.

[01:22:15] Tyler: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, did you make it to the show on time at least? Oh, yeah,

[01:22:20] Emilio: yeah, yeah. For sure. I made it . You kidding? I'm gonna like, I'm gonna like soak up every, every, every like, last second of that, of that opportunity . I love

[01:22:27] Tyler: that. So, um, Amelia, where can our listeners find your work? Uh, if they want to check you out or see, see the, the pieces that you've been working on?

[01:22:37] Emilio: Uh, so well, there's a few places. Yeah. I mean, if you're, you know, on social media, on Instagram, I am Amelio Perez Art. There we go. Um, and then also my, my, uh, my website is Amelio Perez Perez, art as well. Dot com? Yeah. Dot com and gallery. And then gallery. Uh, right now the only gallery that I'm working with is in Miami.

[01:22:57] Mm-hmm. , uh, Frederick Frederick Schnitzer Gallery. [01:23:00] Um, you can see my train station. Uh, if you're in New York and you're going out to Coney Island on the end train, I'm at the 18th Avenue Station. Nice. And um, . I mean, my, I've worked in a couple of museums, but they're not necessarily hanging on the walls. and, and

[01:23:15] Tyler: uh, you know, uh, uptown in the Rockways maybe.

[01:23:18] Yeah, exactly. Milo, thank you so much for coming on, man. It's a pleasure. Really appreciate it. Honestly, like we have to get you back on, I think, cuz there was, oh, there's, there's gonna be a part too. Why not? I mean, there was two. I felt like we were just hitting our stride, to be honest. Yeah. And I was like, oh, he's gotta go.

[01:23:34] He's got like a fancy dinner now, you

[01:23:35] Emilio: know? So that's not really No, I've, I, dude, I apologize man. Honestly. .

[01:23:39] Tyler: But, but, um, but definitely maybe you and, uh, Jeremy, we can Oh, that, that'd be fun. And we can discuss the topic.

[01:23:45] Emilio: What is art? Yes. . . Awesome

[01:23:50] Tyler: man. Thank you so much. You're very. All right. And uh, for all our listeners, don't forget to check us out at, uh, swell Season Surf Radio and [01:24:00] also you could go to swell season surf radio.com.

[01:24:02] We are recorded at the newsstand studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan. And, uh, we'll all check you on down the line soon. You

[01:24:14] Emilio: Excellent. Thank you.

For more information you can go to http://emilioperezart.com/ or follow him on instagram @emilioperezart

The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by The NewsStand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by The Swell Season Surf Radio Network.
www.swellseasonsurfradio.com

Music:
Song 1): Strange Overtones
Artist: David Byrne & Brian Eno
Album: Everything That Happens Will Happen Today


Song 2): Echale Salsita
Artist: Ignacio Pineiro
Album: A Cuba Le Toco