[00:01:17] Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Our guest for this episode is Shaper Paul Culbert of Chop Wood Surfboards at a garden city. He was born and raised on the shores of Santiago and grew up ripping from Sunset Cliffs to La Jolla shores. He eventually went to school in Santa Barbara where he would forge a lifelong friendship with shaping legend Wayne Rich.

[00:01:49] After a few stints as a defense contractor in Afghanistan, Paul settled in New York with his wife. It was when he and his wife made the choice [00:02:00] that Paul would be the stay-at-home parent, that he picked up a plane and started shaping. His designs are stunning and definitely carry a San Diego influence.

[00:02:11] Paul is here with me in the studio, and I'm super excited to dig into this interview. Paul, welcome to the Swell Season Surf podcast. Thank

[00:02:23] Paul: you. Thank you for having me. I hope that was

[00:02:25] Tyler: accurate. Hope it was good. Yeah, no, that was great. So listeners like Paul was really difficult to research. , it was not a lot of stuff out there and it was like, I'm like looking on Facebook, I'm looking all scrolling your Instagram, stalking it, you know, your LinkedIn is kind of unused,

[00:02:46] And I was like, oh man, like I gotta find stuff. So I emailed around, uh, texted a few friends, you know, and they gave me some bits and pieces. But then, uh, you were so generous this morning, you're like, oh, do you need me to put [00:03:00] together a bio for you? And you gave me this wonderful, beautiful, meaty biography with a lot of great detail and I wanted to ask actually, How did it make you feel writing that bio and putting all of that down onto

[00:03:17] Paul: paper?

[00:03:18] I found it, uh, you know, it was really interesting cause I've never really done anything like that. Uh, but it was interesting to see the progression from literally when I first got on a surfboard when I was 10, to everything that's happened in my life and brought me to New York and to the point where I.

[00:03:37] Now? Yeah, today. I mean, like one thing certainly led to another. Yeah.

[00:03:41] Tyler: You know, it, it's definitely not a straight line. It is not , no . It is definitely, definitely not a straight line. And it's, it's interesting and like I was reading it and I'm like, oh my God, there's so much, there's a lot to explore, but there's definitely like kind of two paths here that I, I was looking [00:04:00] to take, but I, I, I'm, yeah, like it's, it's such a funny thing writing a bio, right?

[00:04:05] And it is, you have to like, talk about yourself and at

[00:04:07] Paul: a certain point, like, I don't know if you watch Always Sunny a little bit, but you know the scene where Charlie, it's become a popular meme where Charlie's working in the mail room Oh. And he's like got all the. Pinpoints on the map behind him in the red yarn, tying all the different points together.

[00:04:23] Yeah. And he is like, just been smoking cigarettes all day, trying to get to the bottom of some Imagine conspiracy. Yeah. But that's a little bit like how the, I feel like the bio turned out a little bit, you know, Well, it's,

[00:04:34] Tyler: it's funny. Like I, I'm reading and it's a, it's beautifully linear too, you know, like, it, it really goes in a chronology.

[00:04:42] And I, I'm like, part of me is like, oh, do we do this? Do we just go through the chronology or do we try to start at different points? Because it's like, there's, there's so many aspects of your life that are fascinating. Some of it our listeners are not gonna be allowed to hear . Um, but [00:05:00] I wanted to first talk about surfboards with you.

[00:05:02] Yes. Um, first I was curious, like growing up, you grew up in San Diego. Yeah. You started surfing at around age 10. Yeah. And you know, first I wanted to know like what. What, what, uh, what a what time period is this? This like late eighties, early nineties, or

[00:05:20] Paul: this would be early to mid nineties.

[00:05:25] Tyler: What sort of surfing school of, um, philosophy would you say that you kind of came from?

[00:05:32] Because you, you grew up in the nineties, we were all riding wafer thin potato chip, rocked out. Right. You know, uh, slippers, uh Right. You know, , Aladdin slippers and, uh, you know, but you grew up in a, a very rich, culturally rich area. San Diego with surfboard shaping particularly. Um, so I was, I was just curious like.

[00:05:55] What were your influences at a young age? Were you coming from a [00:06:00] shred tear kind of background or more kind of from the cultural roots and shaping when you kind of grew

[00:06:06] Paul: up? So, putting aside when I first started and was writing, you know, foamies and then renting whatever board I can get from the local surf shop, of course when I, my first board that I ordered mm-hmm.

[00:06:19] was a 96 Mitz Finn Pintail single Fin Nose Rider. Wow. That Sam Cody airbrushed Falsa style for me. No way, and I did the Falsa because at the time I was so into Big Wednesday , I wanted it to look like Matt Johnson's gun . And to be honest, I'm still that into Big Wednesday . But it was a beautiful board and I love that board.

[00:06:46] Uh, but that, so I think I, um, certainly rode some potato chips in my day, but also being, A bigger, as we are,

[00:06:56] Tyler: um, listeners. He, he's, he's sub [00:07:00] substantial, substantial, you know, surfer and, and physicality, you know, as a big guy myself. Yeah. So I, it's a pleasure to see another Right. Larger surfer out there. Yeah.

[00:07:11] Paul: And so even, even back in those days, I think I always, um, appreciated bigger boards, more volume. Yeah. Uh, the glide of more volume. Right. Um, and my home break at the time was Turine in San Diego and, uh, I mean mine and 250 other of my best friends course. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, you know, it's a super mellow, really fun, slower wave that is very conducive to bigger, heavier glassed long boards.

[00:07:45] Yeah. Um, and that kind of put me on the path of. Single fin, no leash. You know, I was watching at the time, of course, like skip fry. Yeah. You'd see out there, um, who's just incredible on his gliders. Oh yeah. Well, [00:08:00] and back in those days, that was when, like the, the early nineties was when he was first doing the gliders.

[00:08:06] Yeah. And like, I'd never ever seen anything like that before. And you just, he would sit way outside of everybody and just, just style all the way through. And it was just incredible to see. Um, and then you'd see guys like, uh, Eric Summer. Mm-hmm. , uh, you know, he's the first guy I ever saw, you know, walk to the nose.

[00:08:30] Yeah. King 10 hang heels and then walk backwards. And it was just, that blew my mind, you know? It was just like, I didn't know people could do that, uh, at the time. And so, uh, surfing and then, you know, you go to other places, I think there's. There's every type of surfboard and surfer in San Diego. Yeah. But there is that rich history and I think, um, having my up and coming in surfing happen where it did, I think I was just [00:09:00] drawn to the more kind of traditional, uh, classic school.

[00:09:04] Tyler: Now, did, did you work for Mitz Finn as well? Was that, uh, I heard something or you had, you worked at a shop or did Oh, so

[00:09:12] Paul: I worked at a surf shop in Pacific Beach called Bob's Mission, mission Surf. Okay. I think it's still there now. It's just called Mission Surf now. But, um, it was on, uh, mission Boulevard and Grand.

[00:09:23] Okay. Uh, so it was like right in the thick of things and it was great. Um, and the shop had a, uh, private label of surfboards called Surfboards California, which I think Christian Beamish has now. Oh, wow. Um, I'm not sure if there was any crossover between the two or if they just independently came up with Surfboards California on their own.

[00:09:40] But, um, But Mitz Finn was shaping the surfboards. He had his own, yeah. Mitz Finn Surfboards, as he still has today, but, uh, he was doing all the surfboards, California for the shop as well. Oh, wow.

[00:09:52] Tyler: That must have, did that, like, did you have interest in shaping back then? Was that [00:10:00] something that you I never thought

[00:10:02] Paul: I ta towards, you know, I never thought about picking up a planter at that point.

[00:10:06] Mm-hmm. . Um, but I certainly loved being around it. Mm-hmm. , I certainly loved going to the factory and smelling the resin and looking at the boards and just seeing all the work that was being done on 'em. Um, I thought it was really fascinating.

[00:10:21] Tyler: Did, um, were you, were you handy from a young age? Were you, were you good with your hands?

[00:10:27] Were you good like building out things or having that sort of like, uh,

[00:10:32] Paul: mentality? Yeah, I'd say fairly handy. Um, like my dad was an electrical, is an electrical contractor and so we always grew up. doing stuff around the house ourselves with various tools and what, you know. So I think, I think a basic understanding of tools would be fair to say that I had, yeah, , but nothing much, much beyond that.

[00:10:53] Well, I mean

[00:10:53] Tyler: there's like, you know, cuz like I, I was not very handy as much as I would love to and I [00:11:00] tried to shape, but I'm not a detailed oriented person, you know, and I, I was curious, like if that was something I'm always curious with Shapers, right? Like, Where are, uh, a common trait amongst many shapers that I know is that detail mm-hmm.

[00:11:15] you know, being able to kind of focus in on such minuteness and, and, uh, minutiae. I mean, and, um, you know, kind of the, the, you know, the nitty gritty and have the patience for that. And I'm like wondering if that was something that you had as well, you know, because you, you start shaping later in life

[00:11:34] Paul: too.

[00:11:34] Yeah. So I think the two things that I have going for me is patience and determination, . And if there's something that I'm interested in, um, then I'll pursue it as much as I possibly can. Yeah. And try to do the, the best I possibly can do. And in terms of the attention to details and stuff, I, I think I'm a pretty detailed oriented person.

[00:11:59] Uh, but I didn't, [00:12:00] I couldn't see that right away when I first started shaping. Yeah. Like you, I, I had to train my. eyes and my hands. I feel like a lot of times you feel more of a difference than you can see sometimes. Um, but I think for me that was a learned skill that came over time.

[00:12:17] Tyler: Like I was gonna ask.

[00:12:19] Yeah. Like if that was something, uh, it came over time for shaping for you, basically as opposed to just, I mean, you, cuz you have like a wide variety of skill sets that, that do require detail though. Yes. Yeah. You know, like you, you, you study language. Yeah. Right. And language has a lot of detail that, uh, and a lot of accents that are really important Sure.

[00:12:41] That you don't, may not always kind of un understand if you're looking from, from a far away, basically. .

[00:12:49] Paul: Yeah. It also requires a lot of patience. Exactly. Where

[00:12:51] Tyler: did that patience come from? I don't know. , I

[00:12:54] Paul: don't know. I've always been super patient. Um, I've always, you know, tried [00:13:00] to be a pretty easygoing person, at least on the outside.

[00:13:03] Sometimes, sometimes when the mental health struggles kick in. I'm best patient on the inside, but, um, but yeah, I don't know. I think that's just, uh, nature.

[00:13:15] Tyler: And then you, you went to school then, like in San Santa Barbara, right? Yes. Oh, how, how was that first? Because I mean, that was like, it was incredible.

[00:13:24] Every, every kid, every kid that I knew surfed, like applied at least to go to school there, you know? I know my brother and I both did. I definitely did not have the grades for it, but God, like, just the rumors of like, you know, the, the, the dorms there and everything, like,

[00:13:39] Paul: oh, the rumors are true. Yeah. , it was amazing.

[00:13:43] Um, and what's really funny is I, uh, had also gotten into nyu. Yeah. And, uh, had really loved New York and nyu and it, I had to overnight my acceptance to Santa Barbara because it came so down to the wire. What, what, in terms of making me, making a decision. What, what

[00:13:59] Tyler: [00:14:00] swayed you?

[00:14:02] Paul: I don't know. I just really loved Right hand point breaks, I guess.

[00:14:08] And that was too big of an opportunity to pass up . I

[00:14:12] Tyler: w Were you, I guess, like were, I, I imagine you were really good at school then. Yes. And, and what were you gonna pursue then if you were gonna go to NYU or, and Santa Barbara? I

[00:14:24] Paul: was gonna go into both undeclared Yeah. And see what I liked. Interesting. And that's exactly what I did at Santa Barbara.

[00:14:30] I ended up with a double, uh, major in psychology and political science with an emphasis in international relations , where I took the emphasis on, because I had enough AP credits to graduate from Santa Barbara in three years. Oh wow. And I was like, no, this is unacceptable . And so I took on, I wanna stay, I took on major with an emphasis and then ended up out of there.

[00:14:52] And just over four

[00:14:56] Tyler: you, but you, you, um, you developed, [00:15:00] uh, well first actually, before I even go there, like what, like what, what made influenced you to go into those subjects? Actually, cuz they end up as we'll learn, you know, ha playing into like, some of what your, your past career was.

[00:15:14] Paul: So when you go in as an undeclared major mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] I mean, you, you take all of your 1 0 1 s right? Mm-hmm. , and you get a pretty, with the liberal arts school, you kind of sampled them. You dip your toes into every pond basically. Um, and those were just the classes that I really just naturally paid attention to more because I was more interested

[00:15:35] Tyler: the international relations.

[00:15:36] I can see, especially as a surfer, you'd, you'd be trying to think like, how do I make a career Right. where I can travel to places where there are waves. Right, right. , that's, that's what I would be thinking at least. Yeah. .

[00:15:51] Paul: Yeah. I mean, I loved traveling. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and travel for me got started with surf trips, [00:16:00] um, to Costa Rica, I think was my first surf trip.

[00:16:03] And then later, like just trips to Mexico, um, trips to South America. Um, And then I also found out that I love traveling without a surfboard as well, and there's like amazing experiences to be had.

[00:16:18] Tyler: Well, surfing is the, the gateway drug to travel, I

[00:16:21] Paul: feel like. Yes. You know? Absolutely. I agree with

[00:16:24] Tyler: that. Yeah.

[00:16:24] It's like you go thinking, well, I'm gonna go for waves. And, and especially when you do like a longer trip, right? Like not just like a week. Right. Strike. Like, it's like going for longer periods. You realize like, God, there's so much more. And then also you start to think, God, where could I go if I ditch this board too?

[00:16:45] Right. Right. You know? Yeah. Like that's like, that's a huge thing. Yeah. Where, where in South America did you go? Like what

[00:16:52] Paul: parts? I went to, I did a, like a three week long trip to Chile in. , maybe like 2002 or [00:17:00] 2003 were like pun de Lobos or pun De Lobos was one of the spots. Yeah. But it was, uh, it was great.

[00:17:06] It was awesome. Um, it was very uncrowded. Yeah. And uh, actually some of the pictures I think that I sent you were a couple, a couple of those were from Chile . Um, but it was wonderful. I mean, it was a really, really great experience. .

[00:17:20] Tyler: Ah, yeah. Did you, did you go north at all up there as

[00:17:23] Paul: well or? No, I didn't get north.

[00:17:25] I, I was mostly south, I think, uh, pun de was far south. I went with the surfboard. Yeah. And then did some touring around the Lakes district. Oh, wow. Uh, further south from there without a surfboard.

[00:17:38] Tyler: I love it down there. I spent like, Six months there, three months there, six months in South America and like yeah, like Chile.

[00:17:48] It is beautiful. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's California. I mean, a lot of it was reminding me of like, California, you

[00:17:54] Paul: know, you held a mirror to California that's Yeah,

[00:17:56] Tyler: exactly. . Exactly. You know, only like maybe a few [00:18:00] years behind too, you know? Yeah. In terms of development and, and overdevelopment too is not, not, it's not as bad.

[00:18:06] Although I haven't, it's been a long time now. So When were you there? Last time

[00:18:10] Paul: was 2006. Okay. So I feel like we probably both thread, kind of thread that needle. Yeah. Where it was fairly modern but still pretty sparse.

[00:18:18] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. And the buses were luxurious.

[00:18:20] Paul: The buses were great. Yeah. Yeah. I traveled by bus , buses were great.

[00:18:24] Tyler: So in Santa Barbara you forged a friendship with Wayne Rich. Yes. And I was hoping, Can you talk about how that relationship started and two, like can you give a little explainer to our listeners, like who Wayne Rich is in shaping and surf

[00:18:42] Paul: world? Yeah. Uh, I mean, to put it bluntly, I think Wayne is the big kahuna.

[00:18:47] Yeah. Really , he's the guy. Um, in my opinion, I think he is the best shaper in the world today. Wow. Um, I mean, I think he's up there with Skip Fry and [00:19:00] Andrene. I think we're our other guys that can, are probably in the same realm. Um, and, uh, in terms of how we met, uh, I surfed a lot at Rincon. He surfed, still surfs a lot at Rincon.

[00:19:15] Um, and we had a mutual friend, I don't know if you're familiar with Stoker? Randall Stoker, yeah. Of the Stoker V machine. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Randall and I were really close. I actually talked to him a month ago. Uh, so we still kind of, we still keep in touch. Um, but uh, he introduced me to Wayne at Rancon.

[00:19:39] Um, and that's how we initially met. And then, you know, the friendship just kind of gradually increased from there and went from, you know, just me kind of sheepishly being like, oh, hey, Wayne Ru and I'm Stoker's friend to, uh, you know, we'd see each other more. And, um, it was at a time when, uh, Stoker was getting his V machines [00:20:00] Yeah.

[00:20:00] Uh, backup and running. Uh, ever since I knew him, he was writing a V machine. Always. Can, can

[00:20:07] Tyler: you tell our listeners what, what a Stoker V machine is? It's.

[00:20:11] Paul: So it's a sick word in my opinion. It's actually one of the most functional boards there is. Um, I've ridden one since maybe 2004. Wow. Um, and if I were to bring one board on a surf trip, it would be a V machine because it can handle just about anything.

[00:20:30] Yeah. Um, but aside from that, it's basically, if you were to look at it, you would say it is a skip fry nose, maybe with Yeah. A Greeno midsection. And a tage tale . Um, I love that. Really wide Yeah. Diamond tail. A lot of v tri in, and it's, it's super, [00:21:00] it's a great board. I mean, you look at it and you're like, no way.

[00:21:03] and then you watch Stoker on it, you're like, well, , I mean, he's ripping

[00:21:08] Tyler: former guest, Danny Dam, Morro swears by them. Yeah, they're great. You know, like he would ride 'em at Pav bon's, which is like a beautiful wave

[00:21:16] Paul: talking, I mean, could you, Manchester said Long, long West Short break thing fast. Yes. Yeah.

[00:21:22] It's got a great, I mean, just it's so wide and a tail so wide, um, you would think that it would slip out, but I think just the Tri Fins hold it right in place. But it creates a really, really big planting surface that you just get so much speed from. I mean, think about, it'd be, it's like a fish outline, just Yeah.

[00:21:36] You'd put a diamond tail on it instead of the swallow and a huge v

[00:21:40] Tyler: and a huge V down the middle. Right, right. Like, where does that V start?

[00:21:45] Paul: Um, you know, that's a good question. I would, I haven't put a ruler on mine, , but I would say it starts. north of halfway. Wow. I would think, but I'm not sure. I can don't, I mean, I, I don't really [00:22:00] know for sure, but, um, but Stoker's a character.

[00:22:03] Yeah, he's a really nice guy. Um, he's like the ultimate beach bum kind of a guy. . And, um, he lives around or used to, he's in Mexico now, but uh, he used to live in Goleta. Mm-hmm. , uh, right near the university. Never had a car, always showed up where, when, and wherever the surf was. Best . So that required him to know somebody with a car,

[00:22:29] And during my tenure at uc, Santa Barbara, the guy, the guy with a car, uh, which was great, I loved it. Like, yeah, Stoker would just like show up, wake me up, and be like, oh, it's firing and this spot, let's go and be like, yeah man, let's do it. . And, and we became really good friends and, um, through him, I met a, a lot of really cool people, and Wayne was one of them.

[00:22:53] And Stoker was trying to get, uh, his view machines shaped. Yeah. Uh, more of a [00:23:00] production level at the time. And, and Wayne had greed to shape them. Nice. And so, uh, I took Stoker to Wayne Shaping Room, which was at the time at, um, Clyde Beatty factory. Mm-hmm. in Santa Barbara. Uh, which was wild because YR was there, history, max McDonald, Steve Bram, like all those guys were shaping out of the same spot.

[00:23:27] And then Clyde Beatty was like doing the glasswork. He's a mad scientist. Clyde Beatty. Yeah. Um, and it was just, I just hooked it all up. I loved it. And I, I can remember, uh, that was the first time I saw. Kind of the start to finish process of a board where Wayne took, when a stoker's old boards pulled a template off of it, um, got the blank out, cut it out, and then you just went from there.

[00:23:50] And what he produced was, I think still to this day, I think the most beautiful v machine I've ever seen. Uh, just the way he detailed out the, [00:24:00] the tail and, uh, it, it came out really, really good. But, uh, I forget why, but Wayne didn't make the V machine for long. Um, and shortly after that there was a guy named Brad Johnson in Goleta Yeah.

[00:24:15] Who made him, and those were good as well. Um, and when, and Stoker wrote those for a while, and then it went from him, I think to Fowler. Yeah. And then from Fowler to Anderson. And I think Anderson was maybe the first one to shape a V machine, but I'm not entirely sure. I think that's the case, but I Anderson's doing a really good

[00:24:36] job,

[00:24:37] Tyler: so Stoker.

[00:24:38] Like, is he a shaper though? Really? No. So he just had an idea Yeah. For a board and then found a shaper to make it, and then he, that's like his model basically. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. That is like, without being like a professional surfer or anything like that too, having your own model. Yeah. [00:25:00] It's a, it's a cool

[00:25:00] Paul: concept.

[00:25:01] It is. Yeah. . No, it really is. I mean, and it's such a wild concept for a board, but it, it works so well. , I mean, I dunno if you've ever seen like Tyler Warren Surf one or Jimmy Gabo or Joel Tudor, but they were, I weren't those guys. Rip on those things. Yeah. . Well then,

[00:25:22] Tyler: so then when, so did you then, like that when Stoker brought you there, like did you just keep going back to see Wayne?

[00:25:29] Were you hanging out in the shaping bay a lot or?

[00:25:32] Paul: No, I didn't really, uh, ask too much. about shaping from Wayne? Yeah. Until I picked up the planer. Um, and he, like, I, I, the way I approached him about it was like, look man, like I know this is a big ass, so no worries if you say no, but like, I'm starting to shape some boards and is it okay if like I ask you some questions every once in a while [00:26:00] or like

[00:26:02] And he was like, oh yeah, absolutely. .

[00:26:04] Tyler: It's like, yeah, you're, you're in New York, you're not gonna compete too much. Also . Right.

[00:26:08] Paul: And I never would, I never would. I definitely, uh, will, will always refer somebody to buy a, a board from Wayne before they buy one from me if they're interested. .

[00:26:18] Tyler: So then like you, after, um, after college you did some traveling, like spent a bit of time in Nicaragua.

[00:26:26] Yeah. And then like, and you were, what were you doing down there? You were just running surf retreats and, and

[00:26:33] Paul: Yeah, so I was, uh, working at, uh, essentially like a surf camp. Not a surf camp in the sense of, uh, teach people how to surf. Yeah. But like, people are experienced surfers coming down and want to get really good waves in Nicaragua.

[00:26:50] Yeah. Uh, so I was down there, uh, working the boats. Uh, the road conditions were really, really bad. Um, and there's a ton [00:27:00] of good breaks that weren't really accessible by the road. So boats were the way to go. So where I lived was, uh, on a bay I'd lived at Behi Dee. Mm-hmm. , which is, uh, in the south. Mm-hmm. . Um, the closest town would be Rivas.

[00:27:15] Um, and so we had safe anchorage in this bay, but within less than a mile. Yeah. In one direction and maybe a little over a mile in the other direction. We had like four really, really good waves, uh, that were easily accessible by boat. And so, um, It was at a time when I think Nicaragua was just appearing as a blip on the radar for surf travel.

[00:27:41] Yeah. So it wasn't super crowded, but it was enough to, you know, maintain the business and, you know, guests would trickle through. And it was, it's in a, a section of Nicaragua where it's offshore all day, every single day. Yeah. Unless there's a big hurricane that that hit on the Caribbean [00:28:00] side. We,

[00:28:00] Tyler: well, you have the, the, the water body, you know, the bay that's like right behind it basically.

[00:28:04] It was the lake.

[00:28:05] Paul: The lake, I mean Lake Nicaragua. Yeah. Yeah. The lake where it blows off offshore all the time. Yes, exactly. And it was just wonderful. It was, I mean, it was, it was really a lot of fun. The waves were really good. Um, I was living down there with a bunch of friends right after college, and we were.

[00:28:21] Living. Living our best lives, basically.

[00:28:24] Tyler: Um, best shape of your life. I bet, too, right? Like you're just surfing. Oh, yeah. Every day you're feeling like just

[00:28:30] Paul: surfing. You're yourself three times a day. Like when you're not surfing, you're like pulling, pulling anchor on the boat, like barehanded, you know, like

[00:28:39] Yes. Definitely the best shape of my life. . Um, yeah. But it was also, um, it was also very much had a feel of the wild west down there. Yeah. Um, which is exciting as well, but it, it, it, uh, well that part of it was a really good experience because we were very much self-reliant and had to grow [00:29:00] confident in, you know, dealt dealing in some sometimes ambiguous situations.

[00:29:04] Mm-hmm. , you know. Mm-hmm. . Um, we had to get pretty good at first aid. , like, do you want to end up in ni Nicaraguan hospital if you get a fin cut? Like, no, but I could sit you up . Like I, I remember I brought sutures and all sorts of stuff down from the states and had this really good first aid kit, and some doctors came down, um, and you're like, show me how to do this.

[00:29:26] And was like, yeah, can you show me how to do dishes? Like, can you show me how to give stitches just in case? And they're like, yeah, sure. .

[00:29:32] Tyler: I I thought you would be like watching, uh, Timmy Turner's second thoughts movie when they're like in Ino and like, probably watching that. How to do stitches too. . Yeah.

[00:29:44] like

[00:29:44] Paul: rule number one about stitches in Nicaragua. Don't need stitches in Nicaragua, just

[00:29:49] Tyler: use crazy glue. Right? . Yeah. What, uh, so it's, that's interesting though that you talk about like being in an, you know, ambiguous [00:30:00] situations. Things being obviously, uh, a little bit more dangerous, um, a little bit more risky or exciting, I would say.

[00:30:10] Um, have you always felt like a pension for that? Like do you, do you enjoy that, that sort of circumstance at all?

[00:30:19] Paul: Um, not really. I, when I was a little kid, I remember I was like afraid of everything really? Yeah. Um, I didn't, like, I was not a tree climber, , let's just put it that way. Um, I don't know. I, I enjoy challenging myself Yeah.

[00:30:38] And seeing how far I can challenge myself and challenged myself and still come out relatively clean. Yeah. From the other end, from the up, from the other side of that. And I think that kind of happened. I don't know. I, I, I feel like it's hard to pinpoint when that happened, but I would [00:31:00] say probably college thereabouts, I started to get

[00:31:03] Tyler: more, more risk taking more, more like, all right, let's, let's kind

[00:31:07] Paul: of go, no, not stupid risk taking No, no.

[00:31:09] Calculated of course. Less risk averse, I think.

[00:31:13] Tyler: Yeah. You know, uh, Mike Ho likes to say, he's like, I don't want, I don't wanna go over the edge. I like to just walk up to the edge, look, crawl up, look over it, and then turn around, you know? Right. . Well, you

[00:31:24] Paul: know, it's really funny. So that same, uh, principle does not apply to me for my surfing

[00:31:31] Um, why is that there? Well, there's a, so in Nicaragua there's this legit big wave Yeah. Spot, uh, called Outer Reef. Mm-hmm. , uh, and I surfed there three times, and the first time I kind of got like one smaller wave and I was like, oh, that was okay. It's kind of scary, but , I think it, I think I'll do it again, maybe.

[00:31:52] Second time, got a couple waves and it was fine, but I was like, oh that was really scary. That was kind of [00:32:00] fun. Now the third time it was pretty good size. Yeah, and I sat in the channel most of the time and just watched these bombs coming through and I realized it's like, you know, it takes a certain type of person to enjoy.

[00:32:14] Yeah. , this sort of surfing and I'm just not that person. . And like I was like paddled in and I was like, I'm never gonna surf here again. Like I'm glad I got it a couple times, but never again.

[00:32:28] Tyler: I love that. I love that you can kind of ad admit to that. Yeah. You know, I mean, God, like so many surfers, want to like puff the chest out.

[00:32:40] I mean, God, like every, every, every time you, I'm waist a chest

[00:32:43] Paul: high. That's my, yeah. , that's your real sweet, fun zone.

[00:32:45] Tyler: That zone as I've approached middle-aged, that's become my sweet zone, you know, it's like, oh man, it looks pretty big out. No, you know, I'm gonna wait till tomorrow.

[00:32:56] Paul: Current's probably too strong.

[00:32:57] Yeah. Really windy. . [00:33:00]

[00:33:01] Tyler: But it, it's interesting, like you were in Nicaragua and you had to kind of push yourself a little bit then in, in some of these, you know, outta your comfort zone. Yeah. Uh, but then after leaving Nicaragua, you, you go back to school. Yes. Right. Go get, um, a degree in languages. Like, is that

[00:33:22] Paul: I studied, uh, I, I did a program, um, studying Persian.

[00:33:29] Yeah. . Um, and it wasn't a degree granting program, but it was a really interesting program. It started with like a, uh, summer long pers intensive Whoa. Why Persian here? I was just really interested. I mean, at the time, um, there was a lot in the news about Iran Yeah. And their nuclear program and being a student of international relations, I just found it really fascinating.

[00:33:53] Um, and I, it seemed to me like the Iranian people and the American [00:34:00] people really have a lot in common ton. Right. Um, and, uh, I just wanted to learn more about Iran and what was going on there. And I had a ton of free time when I was living in Nicaragua . And so, um, I actually started to teach myself while I was down there.

[00:34:19] Wow. In the hopes of one day, like, well, maybe like relations will thaw and or relations will get better. And, and, uh, Uh, I might travel there someday. Like, it's like it's

[00:34:31] Tyler: beautiful country, you

[00:34:32] Paul: know, Well, I mean at that point it was just a matter of like, I'd really like to go there someday. Yeah, that would be wonderful.

[00:34:37] I mean, the food's so good. The people seem great. Uh, and the country itself is so beautiful. Um, and,

[00:34:44] Tyler: and you could start surf culture there, right?

[00:34:50] That's always what I think of. Like, uh, a lot of countries maybe that might be closed off and like, oh, it'd be great to get, do that, put that flag in there and be like, ah, surf culture. [00:35:00]I will show you what it's like. Right, right.

[00:35:04] Paul: But, uh, so after I finished up in Nicaraguas, I had kind of taught myself as far as one could go.

[00:35:14] Yeah. Learning Persian by themselves in a Spanish speaking country, , um, . And so I, uh, applied to a language program and, um, it was, uh, a neat program that was, uh, summer long intensive in California. Um, and then for the rest of the year it was just, uh, I was able to remote study. Yeah. And then the program culminated the next summer, uh, with a study abroad.

[00:35:42] Um, and I went, ended up going to, uh, Tajikistan where they speak a dialectic Persian. Um, and it was a full scholarship. It was great. It was like, well, why not? This is awesome. I'm gonna do this. And then I simultaneously applied because it, it, I only had to be present [00:36:00]for the first summer for the intensive and the second summer for the study abroad.

[00:36:06] Um, I also applied to a small grad school in Washington, DC uh, that specialized in state craft and stuff like that. And so I simultaneously attended both schools. Wow.

[00:36:18] Tyler: what state craft. ,

[00:36:20] Paul: international relations. All right.

[00:36:22] Tyler: I did stuff like that. Like what, what, like, why, what was your, what was your hope or, or kind of direction that you were thinking or angling career-wise then to, to kind of explore that?

[00:36:37] Paul: Well, at that point I definitely wanted to do something in terms of, you know, like working for the government or something like that. Uh, like working abroad, if it was State Department or mm-hmm. , I don't know. Uh, anything else similar to that?

[00:36:57] Tyler: Did, was there like something altruistic [00:37:00] for you as well, like wanting to serve your country or wanting to do something like that's positive or having a positive effect?

[00:37:06] Paul: Absolutely. Yeah. That was, that was part of it for sure. Um, and I feel like I'm a patriotic person. Yeah. Not, like, not the, not patriotism in a sense that I think it's. . I think it's kind of become a grotesque thing these days where it's like, see how big of a flag you can overtly wave ? I am not, yeah. Talking about that kind of patriotism, I'm talking about like a deep down patriotism and willing, uh, willingness and desire to do something for your country.

[00:37:37] Yeah. I feel like I've, I had that, uh, for quite a while. Um, but also, so that was certainly part of it. Yeah. But also, I mean, it just seemed like a lot of fun to, to go and travel and, you

[00:37:52] Tyler: know. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, uh, it, I, I know at one point like I, I [00:38:00] thought about it too. I was like, oh man, I'm, maybe I'll apply for State Department or something, but.

[00:38:06] it seemed really rigorous like, and uh, it seemed like, well the other thing I was like, well, I probably had done too many drugs, , you know, there might be a hindrance there, you know, . I was like, I don't know if they'll accept me for something like that. .

[00:38:24] Paul: Yes. It all depends. Yes. It all depends.

[00:38:26] Tyler: Interesting. You know, but like, that must have been, uh, quite an experience.

[00:38:31] So you moved to DC then? I did.

[00:38:33] Paul: I did. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah.

[00:38:36] Tyler: Were you, were you hopeful that you might surf at all? Like get to Maryland or, or Delaware, or, or were they outer banks or were you like, I'm forsaking surfing right now. I

[00:38:47] Paul: didn't make the conscious decision to forsake surfing . Um, I was just, you know, I was coming off at Nicaragua where I surfed.

[00:38:57] all the time. All the time. Um, and was [00:39:00] just ready to pursue other things and had a full plate of what I, the things that I was pursuing. Yeah. And so I just focused on those things for a while.

[00:39:09] Tyler: Um, how did it feel like to not surf then to go from like surfing all the time to not surfing And I, I know it sounds kind of ridiculous when we talking about like state department, you know, bigger stuff, you know, but it's like, but what is it like to, to not surf

[00:39:30] Paul: Um,

[00:39:34] I missed it. I did, but I was also at a very good point where I could be like, you know, I can put surfing down for a little bit to do these other things that are also really interesting.

[00:39:44] Tyler: To quote bear, nobody surfs forever. Right. .

[00:39:48] Paul: I just wanted to become a garbage man.

[00:39:54] Tyler: It's a, it is a great meme going around right now. Like, Hey man, you surf, you surf. And it's like, nah, I'm a garbage man. But it's like, [00:40:00] uh, Oscar the Grouch, . It's so good. Um, and then like, while you're doing this program, you met your wife and this, this is where, where we kind of mentioned before, like it wasn't a straight line, right.

[00:40:17] How you ended up here and it was like kind of roundabout way and you were even contemplating going to nyu Yeah. Right. To school. And instead, like you had to go to Santa Barbara and Nicaragua. And then the friends you made in Santa Barbara were having a wedding where you met your wife. Is

[00:40:35] Paul: that Yes. . Yeah.

[00:40:37] Um, .

[00:40:39] Tyler: So do you wanna give her a shout out by the way? It is Valentines Day. Love you. . . We are here on Valentine's Day, by the way. It's Valentine's Day . .

[00:40:49] Paul: I picked up some good wine in Champaign from the , from the across store, across the street.

[00:40:56] Tyler: through that place is is really nice. The wine bottle. It is really nice.

[00:40:59] Oh [00:41:00] my gosh. Like, yeah, people, you can spend a lot

[00:41:04] Paul: of money there. Uh, yeah, you certainly can. . But, uh, so yeah, it was, um, it wasn't a friend of mine who went to U C S B. He was the third, or I'm sorry, the, the fourth partner right in the business that ultimately brought me to Nicaragua. Oh, wow. Okay. Two of the other partners were boyfriend and girlfriend.

[00:41:24] All right. While I was in Nicaragua and when I came back they tied the knot in New Hampshire. Ah, so you The third wheel when I was . When I was in DC Yeah. Um, . I had never looked at a map of the Eastern seaboard apparently. And I was just like, oh, I'm close enough. I can just hop on the bus and get to New Hampshire , which I did.

[00:41:45] that's a, that's a trip in there several hours later, . Um, but, uh, yeah, my wife, uh, was the, the maid of honor Yeah. At their wedding. And, uh, they were doing the [00:42:00] rehearsal the night before and I think the, uh, one of the groomsmen wasn't there yet. Like he was a doctor and something held him up. So stand, so it was a stand in.

[00:42:11] Mm. Um, and then, uh, you know, we hit it off at the cocktail party after the rehearsal, and then that's how we met. Nice. And, uh, there was also. , a full canoe full of cans of Budweiser for the open bar at the wedding. And that certainly like, helps social lubricant,

[00:42:30] Tyler: helps the process. Always, always helpful. Of course, you know,

[00:42:35] Paul: Yeah. Um, and then I did know having traveled by bus from DC to New Hampshire that I was fairly close to New York being in dc. And so, um, I started, we started seeing each other and I would take the, uh, the Chinatown bus Oh man. From DC to New York and back, which was a wild experience, but it was like $7, you know,

[00:42:59] Tyler: go [00:43:00] on.

[00:43:00] What, what would, what would you experience

[00:43:02] Paul: on those buses? So I never, the worst experience I ever had, yeah. Was just standing and waiting in a blizzard for like three hours waiting for the bus to show up. Oh. In like some parking lot in Chinatown? No way. . But I heard horror stories about, I don't know how much of this is true.

[00:43:20] Yeah. Yucky takes some of these with grain of salt, but they're entertaining to think about nonetheless. Like I heard that there were multiple organized crime factions that were like vying for control of the buses, like the bus. I can see that threats. Yeah. Um, and sometimes like gnarly things would happen on the bus, bus

[00:43:39] Um, or sometimes like the bus would get pulled over for whatever reason, and maybe the bus driver doesn't have a driver's license. Oh yeah. And then there's like a whole bus full of people stranded in like stranded on the Jersey turnpike somewhere. waiting for the next bus to show up. Um, and then I heard about book bus and I [00:44:00] found out I could pay a few extra dollars and have an internet connection.

[00:44:03] Exactly. more reliable bus route.

[00:44:08] Tyler: So you, you graduate. And then you get a job for the state depart or like, no, I

[00:44:16] Paul: got, I got a job, um, uh, working for a defense contractor. Yeah. Um, and, uh, kind of took me here and there. What does that mean?

[00:44:28] Tyler: Like, like, I got a job. What did defend, like I always hear defense contracts, but what, what are you doing?

[00:44:35] Like is it, are you interpreting as it were you going as interpreter? What? Like what sort of

[00:44:42] Paul: stuff would you Yeah, that's one of the things that I can't, not too much detail can't really get into. Um, , I used my language skills. Um, um,

[00:44:54] Tyler: that's all that we can talk about. We have to redact everything else.

[00:44:57] People ?

[00:44:58] Paul: No, I was, [00:45:00] um, yeah.

[00:45:05] Yeah. I'm not sure how much I can really ,

[00:45:09] Tyler: but it. It, it's a, it's a job that required you to travel for quite a bit. Yes. Yeah. And you were like in Afghanistan, is that correct? Yeah. Can you talk about this

[00:45:19] Paul: experience a little bit? I was, I spent a year in Afghanistan. My wife and I, uh, we got engaged, uh, prior to me going Wow.

[00:45:28] Um, and then I was off for a year and, um, it was a great experience. I think. Um, I mean it ob obviously not all sunshine and lollipops, but, um, I feel like, uh, I was able to make a, a difference, yeah. Of a positive impact. Um, what,

[00:45:49] Tyler: what was that moment when you took that job and then like the lead up to it?

[00:45:56] Paul: Um, you know, the lead up [00:46:00] was a lot of.

[00:46:03] parties, like between engagement parties and farewell parties. Yeah. Like, it was kind of, the lead up was kind of fun. . Um, were

[00:46:11] Tyler: you nervous, scared? Like do you know what to have an idea of what to expect?

[00:46:17] Paul: I didn't really know what to expect. Um, I don't know. I, I think I was more excited than anything. I think at that time I wanted to, to go.

[00:46:26] Yeah. Um, and I think I'm, I mean, I had done all this work, like one of the languages they speak in Afghanistan is Dari, which is a Persian dialect, and so it goes, would be useful, well suited. Yeah. Uh, to go and I felt like I could do good things. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think overall it was a good experience.

[00:46:58] I definitely have some, [00:47:00] uh, Emotional scarring from it, as many do who come back. But, uh, I certainly, I, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I wouldn't go back in time and not go. Yeah.

[00:47:10] Tyler: You know, I mean, what, when you, when you go there, I mean, it's, it, I I it's hard to imagine what it would be like, you know? Yeah.

[00:47:22] Uh, did it feel, when you were there somewhat normal, like being there, like, was there normal everyday life going on where, yeah. I mean, you know, I'm curious like, your

[00:47:34] Paul: experiences there. Well, it's, it's wild because,

[00:47:37] Tyler: like, were you in the green, green zone or did you go outside of that, that safety zone a lot or

[00:47:42] Paul: both.

[00:47:43] Yeah. Um, but uh, yeah, I mean it's, it's really fascinating to see if you're in a war zone, life goes on. Yeah. It's just, there's also war happening too, you know, so people. certainly go about their [00:48:00] day-to-day lives. Yeah. As you have to. Of course. Um, and, uh, it, I think it just is, I was first, I, I can remember like the first Oh shit moment.

[00:48:17] Like Yeah. Where, or it's like, okay, I'm, I'm here now. Whereas , I got, uh, picked up from the airport in Kabul, and uh, my flight was significantly delayed. Yeah. Flying into Kabul. So I think my flight landed at like 11 o'clock at night or something like that, which is less than ideal. Yeah. Um, but my, uh, the guys that were sent to pick me up picked me up and they tossed me like an Afghan blanket, an Afghan scarf, an Afghan hat, and they're like, put this on

[00:48:53] And then they pulled out these collapsible. AK 40 sevens. Whoa. Like in the, like, one right [00:49:00] next to the driver. And then the guy riding shotgun had one at the ready. And it was just like, okay, , I'm here now, , we're in it. See how this goes. And that was the first moment where it's like, okay, this is like, this is

[00:49:13] Tyler: real.

[00:49:14] Yeah. This is no, there's no safety rails. Like there's nothing here. Like you're, you're really thrown into it. Right. That's, that's an overwhelming emotion.

[00:49:25] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. But it was also, it's like, okay, let's like get to it. Let me, let's get to

[00:49:32] Tyler: my, my immediate instinct would be to make a joke about it. . Well, there, zoom, where'd you get those guns from?

[00:49:39] Those are pretty nice. You know, like, I, I would, I would, I feel like I would say something and people look at you like, did purchase two

[00:49:44] Paul: tickets to the gun show? Two tickets to the boat show, right?

[00:49:50] Tyler: Oh yes. . I mean, but that's, . It's like, it's funny how we, we process stress and, and how you deal with that [00:50:00] sort of intensity, you know? Um, had you, had you had to have any training handling weaponry then? Yes. Were you, had you had experience beforehand doing that? Yes. All right. So it's so not something that was out of the realm for you?

[00:50:17] No. At least no. Which is, which is a little bit for me, it would be like, what do I do with this thing? And I had to like drop it, drop the gun or something. I feel like, you know,

[00:50:27] Paul: is that AK 74 played a lot of Call of Duty in No, that works. . That works.

[00:50:34] Tyler: I've seen a YouTube video on how to clean this

[00:50:39] Paul: Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean it was certainly intense, um, at certain times. Other times it was. . Boring. Boring, you know? Yeah. That's, I don't know, that's, uh, but um, I find it fascinating to see. One of [00:51:00] the, one of the things I walked away with was just to see what people are capable of. Yeah. I mean, I think good and bad.

[00:51:08] Good and bad. Um, I think, uh, situations kind of extraordinary, situations like that put normal people into circumstances that they wouldn't otherwise experience and can either bring out the best of you mm-hmm. or the worst of you, or sometimes variations in between. Um, but I think. , whatever comes out, those qualities were always there.

[00:51:40] Yeah. It's just you didn't, you weren't put into a situation that made you, like, make a spot decision to go like one way or the other, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Like you might have those to grow qualities working at a desk job anywhere. Yeah. But you've never been put in a situation where you've had to express those qualities.

[00:51:59] [00:52:00] Mm-hmm. and I think, um, so I think that it's, like you said, it's both a good and a bad thing because the flip side is also true, where a lot of really terrible things happen. Well,

[00:52:10] Tyler: it can bring out the worst opportunities people, you know? Yes. Like as well. Like it Absolutely. The, the stress, the fear, uh, all those things can drive us to, to dark places.

[00:52:22] Yeah.

[00:52:23] Paul: You know? Well, and also with the Afghans themselves, like Yeah. I mean, to the perseverance, the absolute just. I mean, what else do you do? Yeah. Other than move on with your life and just do the best you can. Right? Absolutely. But it also puts the Afghan people into circumstances where maybe it's like, maybe this guy's not such a bad guy.

[00:52:45] Maybe he was just like bored. Yeah. He saw a convoy going by and had a gun, you know?

[00:52:51] Tyler: Yeah. it, it's, um, it makes you, I imagine your experience, and, and this is obviously [00:53:00] different for everyone who, who experiences these things, um, but it seems like your experience like was a real humanizing type of experience where you really, it sounds like you, you got to understand why people do what they do a little bit more.

[00:53:20] Paul: Maybe at least have more compassion. I mean, I think sometimes trying to understand why people do certain things, there's,

[00:53:28] Tyler: there's no reason

[00:53:28] Paul: sometimes. Yeah. Drive yourself crazy sometimes trying to figure out certain things that certain people do, but, um,

[00:53:35] Tyler: it's the circumstances that,

[00:53:37] Paul: that drive people.

[00:53:38] Peaceful play, not always, but, and in a place like that, I think circumstance, I mean, there's, yeah.

[00:53:46] Tyler: Do, do you feel like, and if, and if you're not comfortable talking about it, but like, do, do you feel like it brought the best out of you? Or, or did it make you confront things that, about yourself that you didn't want to [00:54:00] confront?

[00:54:00] Paul: I feel like, and I mean, it's possible there's cognitive dissonance happening. Yeah. But I feel like, uh, it brought the best out in me, I would hope anyways. Yeah. Um, I think having to, in the aftermath, coming back to the states and coming back to normal life. Yeah. that almost brought some of the worst out in me because of, because of my experiences there.

[00:54:28] Yeah. Um, I've, you know, had PTSD since, and, uh, you know, the mental health struggles that go along with that have been difficult Yeah. To deal with a lot. And sometimes it gets like kind of dark, you know, having to deal with those things. But, uh, but I think, I don't, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm not ashamed of anything.

[00:54:49] Yeah. I ever did over there.

[00:54:51] Tyler: When you got back then, like, what is, what's that experience like? You know, if you don't mind me, I know I, it's a pretty broad [00:55:00] question and like,

[00:55:01] Paul: so the, I remember the day I got back, yeah. It was, uh, right before Thanksgiving and, uh, landing in JFK and like getting that cold New York air.

[00:55:17] Yeah. I, I was sitting in a cab. Coming into the city to grab, uh, my apartment key Yeah. From my wife who was at work. And, uh, I was just, I remember taking a moment and just being like, I did it. Yeah. And I felt like I, uh, I dunno. I, I accomplished something. I think I felt like at that point, like what we were talking about before.

[00:55:43] Yeah. Where I, I, I kind of reached that line Yeah. Where I wanted to be. And I made it through and I made it. And, and that was just like a sigh of

[00:55:55] Tyler: relief. It's like almost like a satisfaction, you know? Uh, extremely. [00:56:00]Yeah. Satisfactory. Yeah. You know, like that's, or like the way to describe is like, you, you climbed to the top of that mountain almost, you know?

[00:56:09] And then it's like, well, what's next?

[00:56:11] Paul: Right, right. Well, and then, um, so aside from that coming back and it took me a while to. Took me years to, to sort this all out and, and realize what was actually going on. But, um, I really coming back, I did not like being in crowded places. Mm-hmm. . Um, which is tricky in New York sometimes

[00:56:32] Uh, but it was mostly like, I feel like a crowd that is doing what is supposed to, if that makes any sense at all. Yeah. Like a a, you're, you're walking on a crowded street, but everybody's walking in the right direction. Direction, yeah. Looking at their phones. Nothing is out the ordinary. Yeah. I'm, I'm fine with that kind of a crowd.

[00:56:50] It's a crowd that's not doing what it's supposed to. Right. That I'm really, really bad with, um, concerts, stuff like that. Concert. So I went to my first [00:57:00] concert this year since coming back. Yeah. And it was a, it was. at City Winery, so I had a seat.

[00:57:09] Tyler: Okay. Well that, so it was nice. Makes it a little bit better.

[00:57:12] Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I don't think a mosh pit would be

[00:57:15] Paul: a good call. No. Well, it's funny because, uh, since it was a very good experience at City Winery, I'm gonna see if I can take it a little bit further. Wow. So I'm going to see, uh, flogging Molly Oh, wow. In Huntington , but I also have a seat like, all right.

[00:57:30] Okay. So we're gonna see how that goes. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think for me it was, uh, a again, I didn't know all this at the time because it was just like, so much change Yeah. All at once. Uh, but looking back, um, it was, you know, I was definitely having issues of anxiety of, you know, I would get panic attacks and, you know, bouts of depression and stuff like that.

[00:57:59] [00:58:00] And I think it boils down to like, while I was over there, I can't really think of one specific thing that necessarily triggered it, but I think just the amount of time having to have all of your senses firing all the time. So you have to be

[00:58:18] Tyler: for that amount of time. Unlearned. Yeah. Like all the time

[00:58:21] Paul: you're heightened.

[00:58:22] Right. That, that came very easily to me. And so in a place like that, it was great. In a place like this, it feels like, you know, in Spinal Tap when he is like, oh, mine goes two 11, well, like, I'm at 11 in terms of watching what's going on around me. Yeah. All the time. And it, it becomes just like really, really overwhelming sometimes when it's, when things aren't going the way they should.

[00:58:49] Yeah. And that's when I really struggle where it's like I spent so much time focusing on. Making sure everything's okay around me. Yeah. [00:59:00] That if something is out of whack, then it's like I don't have the capacity to like deal with like little, little things that like might come up. Yeah. If that makes any sense.

[00:59:10] Tyler: Like, would you say, like, let's say you're having like a, a barbecue with people over and just certain things aren't right. You know, is that, is that more of a trigger or is it just more of like, being in public and just seeing something that feels off or feels, you know, like you, you're, you're kind of waiting for something to happen?

[00:59:31] I would say more

[00:59:32] Paul: in public. Yeah. More in public. Yeah.

[00:59:35] Tyler: And like in something that you can't control

[00:59:37] Paul: either. Yeah. Well, and then add that. So not long after, uh, I came back maybe, you know, a year and some change, we had our, our daughter. And so I had all those things going on internally. Yeah. Wow. But wasn't aware of it at the time, but they were certainly there.

[00:59:55] And then add a kid to the mix where it's like, okay, now all I want to do is protect [01:00:00] you. Yeah. And all I, so I really need to like focus now. Whew. So

[01:00:05] Tyler: that sends you like beyond 11 to 12 almost on your heightened sense of, would you, how would that, how do you mind if I ask like, how would that manifest and, and did your wife notice and, and Yeah.

[01:00:20] Paul: And she, she noticed. Um, but again, I think it took like years for us to realize what it was, just because there's like so much, so much change Yeah. Happening where it's like, I mean, you're exhausted with a kid anyways. Yeah, totally. Um, so it's hard to pinpoint like, are you just exhausted with a kid? But I think, I feel like I wasn't as patient as I always was before.

[01:00:44] Yeah. I wasn't as, uh, Uh, willing to like go and do things as I was before, you know?

[01:00:54] Tyler: Did you, did you, you know, did you self-medicate at all? Did you do [01:01:00]any of that? No. Ah, no. That's good though. Like, I, I suffer from depression. I self-medicated for years. Yeah. You know, and it really, uh, it made it worse of course.

[01:01:12] Right. You know, , it was like an escape on things. Right. And I'm wondering then, did you have an escape? Did you have something that you went to, to kind of hide from all this stuff? So

[01:01:25] Paul: to a certain degree, I think shaping became my escape. Yeah. Um, it was at a time when, uh, so we didn't really get to this, but um, there came a point after.

[01:01:43] We had our daughter. Yeah. That it was either gonna be my job or my wife's job. And, uh, we're very fortunate that my wife has a great job and she can support all of us. Yeah. Uh, with her income and, you know, my job, which [01:02:00] I, I loved, yeah. Um, would've likely taken me to other places, crazy places, places for long periods of time.

[01:02:10] And so it was in, in the scheme of what's best for the family, it was a no-brainer. Yeah. Obviously , of course, it's gonna be, uh, her job. Uh, but for me personally, it, wow, what a, what a difference in lifestyle going from, you know, the things that I did to. being a stay-at-home dad, which is great. Yeah. I don't wanna diminish like how grateful I am for being able to do that.

[01:02:42] Absolutely. Um, but I feel like, or I felt like then after a couple of years I was like kind of losing all, all it means like to be mean, just kind of

[01:02:57] Tyler: you're self-worth. Right. You know,

[01:02:59] Paul: [01:03:00] its a bit, it's, it's like, back then I would surf every once in a while, but I had to get a babysitter every time. Mm-hmm. I wanted to go, you know, so I wasn't surfing that much.

[01:03:08] Right. Like my, my old job was very much part of my identity. Identity and so it was like, I'm who are you? I'm becoming what I fear the most. Like, just mediocre. Yeah. Like, I, I, like, if I were to pinpoint one fear for me, like fear of mediocrity is right at the top of the list. Wow. Um. and I just kind of like felt myself, and that was on my more cynical days because mm-hmm.

[01:03:35] I mean, being a parent is one of the most important things you can do. Of course. Like, and I feel like there, uh, are aspects of the things that I've experienced that make me a great parent. Yeah. And I can apply these things to like raising my daughter and my daughter's 10 now. Yeah. And she's like the most amazing person in the world and we're like super, super tight.

[01:03:56] Yeah. Which is a direct result of, [01:04:00] you know, me being a stay-at-home parent. And of course like we've got a wonderful relationship. Um, but I certainly had cynical moments being like, all I fucking do is pick up Cheerios and change diapers. Like , like what am I doing? And so I needed something, um, that was outside of all of that that I was passionate about.

[01:04:24] Yeah. And seeing is how I couldn't. You know, like as, as your kids get older, your schedule frees up because they start going to school. Yeah. And you have like a bigger block of time. Yeah. Where I can like get out and surf. But at that time, you know, she's two years old. Like she was,

[01:04:41] Tyler: dude, that's all, that's all consuming.

[01:04:43] That a, that's a, that's a, that's a round the clock

[01:04:45] Paul: job. And so, uh, I was like, I need, I gotta do something that I'm passionate about for me. Yeah. And I was like, you know, I'm passionate about surfing, but I don't get too many opportunities to do that right now. I'm passionate about [01:05:00] surfboards and I've got a garage.

[01:05:04] And I went to my wife and I was like, Hey, what do you think? Like if I convert the garage to a shaping bay , like, would you be okay with that? Yeah. And she was 100% like, I think it's a great idea. Like just super supportive. Awesome. Like from, from the GetGo, which is great.

[01:05:22] Tyler: I gotta, I gotta ask like, cuz this is, , you know, this is a lot here.

[01:05:27] You know, we're, we're talking about, um, you know, it, it's funny like how, you know, like I have a lot of friends who are, who are stay at home dads also. Yeah. You know who, you know, Mike Matcher, friend of ours. He was Yeah. I love that guy. Yeah. He's the best. You know, and, and like, it's, um, you know, I've always wondered like, about the balance of that, right?

[01:05:50] Yeah. Like, there's always, I don't know about you, but I sometimes my wife is the breadwinner in our, our relationship and I, I sometimes feel an imbalance. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, am I contributing [01:06:00] enough? Mm-hmm. Is it enough? Am I, you know, am I, you know, there I have to ask for, for her to co pay for things or things of that nature?

[01:06:08] And then you, you know, it affects like your self-esteem, your, your, your worth, your, your feeling of like, uh, you know, I hate to say man or masculinity, but it, it does like, For me, Lisa, it can sometimes affect the how I perceive myself. And I was curious, like, yeah, I mean, you, you experienced a similar thing.

[01:06:29] Paul: Yeah. Sometimes. So for me, it's not necessarily like I feel less masculine, but to your point of like, am I contributing enough? Yeah. I get there sometimes because I feel like, you know, there's so much monotony in like running a household. You Yeah. Do this exactly the same things almost every single day, but all those things matter.

[01:06:49] Yeah. And all those things add up to a lot. Yeah. And what my wife has to sometimes remind me of is like, no, like we do this together. Like, I wouldn't be able to do [01:07:00] what I do if you didn't do what you do. Yeah. And so, like, what you do matters, you know? But like, again, on my more cynical days, it's like, what the fuck do I do?

[01:07:11] Like .

[01:07:13] Tyler: When when did you, when did you realize that you were. suffering PTSD.

[01:07:21] Paul: And, and, uh, I think it was about f I mean, it was years after I got back. Yeah. And I started to have more frequent panic attacks, like for literally no reason whatsoever. Wow. Um, and it was just because, uh, I think I'd gotten to that point where I was so wound up internally, like any little thing would, would send me into a panic attack.

[01:07:41] Wow.

[01:07:42] Tyler: And what did you do? What did you, what did you, what, what were the steps

[01:07:46] Paul: that you took to help? Went to a therapist and did cognitive behavioral therapy. It's powerful stuff. It is, it's excruciating, yeah. To go through . Um, but it was very helpful. [01:08:00]Very helpful. I mean, and I, I feel like I've gotten, I've made huge improvements, but I feel like it'll, it'll always be there.

[01:08:06] Yeah. It's just a matter of like, can I deal with it?

[01:08:09] Tyler: Well, you learn to manage it. Right, right. Like, uh, depression, things of that nature. The, the ptsd, it's all like, , it never goes away. Right. It, it just depends on what you, you learn tools to minimize the impact of it all. Right. And remind yourself, be be kind of aware of it.

[01:08:29] Right. You know, and like being like, oh, okay, this is one of those things. Yeah. It's happening right now. Why is this happening? What's going on? What do I, right, right. Let's, let's figure out what do we do to kind of limit this?

[01:08:43] Paul: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You almost become an outside observer of your own behavior.

[01:08:48] Yeah. Behavior

[01:08:49] Tyler: and conditions. Absolutely. Yeah. Did you, did you medicate at all as well? Like, did you, you I was just curious. Yeah,

[01:08:56] Paul: yeah. No. Um,

[01:08:59] Tyler: just surfboard [01:09:00] shaping .

[01:09:01] Paul: Yeah. So the surfboard shaping was, do you think that it was so, such a good thing for me? Yeah. Because it was like, I can, I, you, you were there in that moment, right?

[01:09:12] Focused on what you're doing. Like, I'm not worried about. What I have to do that afternoon, I'm there. Yeah. Focusing on what I'm doing. And it's like the instant gratification of every single step of the process. You can just see the board coming mm-hmm. into what it's ultimately gonna be. That is really, really helpful for me.

[01:09:36] Uh, just that whole process and like, it's like a, a little reward at each stage, you know? Okay.

[01:09:42] Tyler: Yeah. God, I mean, it's, well, it's, it's physical. Yeah. So you're getting one that, that physical aspect out. There's a, there's a tactile sensation as well that you're dealing with. Um, you know, and then like you said, it's, it's like you're focused, you're [01:10:00] so deep into it Yeah.

[01:10:01] That it allows you to take all the distractions

[01:10:06] Paul: out. Right, right. Well, and I think that's probably, if I think about it, that's the most important part for me because I can really get lost in like, , just everything else that's going on. Yeah. You know, so it's really, really good for me to be laser focused on something.

[01:10:20] Well, it's meditative. It is. Yes. Very much

[01:10:22] Tyler: so. I imagine like when you talk to your therapist telling them about the shaping, they must have really, that must have been like, oh yeah. Totally. Absolutely. . Absolutely. It's, it's a, it's an incredible craft. Um, when you, so then you started shaping and you created a shaping bay.

[01:10:42] And what was your thought? You were like, I'm just gonna shape boards for myself. Am I gonna, were you thinking I'm gonna, am I gonna sell any of these? I'm gonna give these away. At

[01:10:53] Paul: the time I was just like, I'm gonna shape something for myself and like, maybe for my friends. Yeah. Um, if I ever like shape [01:11:00] enough.

[01:11:00] Like if, if it turns out like it's something that I like to do. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna start with, I think I got like two blanks or something the first time. The second one was in case I really fucked up on the first one. Yeah. You know, um, But it was, yeah, it was just a, I'm gonna do this for me. Which honestly, if I'm being perfectly honest, every surfboard Yeah.

[01:11:24] That I make is, I make it for me, I don't, not in a sense of like the volume Yeah. Thickness with this phrase, of course, in a sense that that whole process is, is for me, and it's like a very selfish process, . But if I can make a really good board that is gonna make somebody's day, that's extra added bonus.

[01:11:42] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But still, every single board is, is for me.

[01:11:47] Tyler: Well, do you, do you think that's common amongst most shapers? Do you think that they

[01:11:52] Paul: shape? I don't know. I think, um, yeah, it depends because I'm certainly, I mean the, I'm in a very fortunate position to where I'm not [01:12:00] doing this, to put bread on the table.

[01:12:01] Of course. Um, I think a lot of really good shapers. Remain passionate. Yeah. Like more, more established shapers. Remain very passionate about what they do, which is awesome. Um, I don't know, like when it's, when it's a factory, do you maintain the, uh, the, the passion? The passion? Does it feel more like work? I don't really know because I'm not in that Yeah.

[01:12:25] Um, situation. Um, and I don't, not to diminish that, I think that's red. No. Like we need that. Yeah. . Um, and you know, it's funny, David Bowie once made a comment when he was experiencing more commercial success. Somebody asked him like, what essentially, like, are you selling out? And, um, his response was something to the effect of like, I've never equated obscurity with authenticity.

[01:12:55] Yeah. And I, I think he's right on with that. Like, I don't, [01:13:00] certainly don't begrudge anybody who's like making an awesome living doing this because. Absolutely. Like, but for me personally, um, yeah, it's, I, I just, I'm grateful to have the ability to have so much passion about each and every board. Yeah. And have each and every board to be so fulfilling to, to me, on a personal level,

[01:13:28] Tyler: how did that first board come out?

[01:13:31] I mean,

[01:13:31] Paul: I still have it . It, it wasn't, it wasn't bad, bad , I believe it was Terry Fitzgerald said All surfboards work. Yeah. Some just work better than others. Right. For a first go of it, it wasn't terrible. Yeah. Um, but it certainly wasn't a good board , you know? Yeah. Like, it was pretty rough. Um, I didn't really have any command of the tools that I was using.

[01:13:58] Um, [01:14:00] What was, but

[01:14:00] Tyler: whatever. Well, how was that learning process then? Like you, you mentioned, uh, to me like, uh, Joe Falcon had like a real big influence. Yeah.

[01:14:10] Paul: So after I did that first board, um, I didn't know who was around to glass it. Yeah. So I started, um, you know, looking around on the internet and I'd been to, it was Pilgrim.

[01:14:30] Yeah. By that point I'd been to Pilgrim several times and uh, seen Joe's boards on the racks in there. Yeah. And we were just like, wow, these are really, really beautiful boards. Yeah. And they, they're boards that I was used to seeing, like they're just San Diego style fishes. Of course. You know? Yeah. Um, and so I just shot Joe an email and I was like, Hey, I was, I.

[01:14:56] At Pilgrim the other day, saw your boards and, um, [01:15:00] they're really, really beautiful. And I just made a board myself and I was wondering like, who does your glassing? Um, and he fired an email back and he's like, oh yeah, I've got some guys in Jersey, but they're not taken on anybody else. Uh, but you should check out Nature Shapes.

[01:15:16] Mm-hmm. . Um, and that is what got my relationship with Nature Shapes rolling at first board. Nice. And I still take boards in nature shapes. Uh, and those guys are awesome. . You gotta love Mike Becker. I do love Mike Becker. And Eddie f he's such, oh my God, is a legend. Absolutely. Learned so much local surf history.

[01:15:34] Just listened to Eddie. He's imagined. Um, Edgar is amazing. Mm-hmm. like, I don't know. They're just a solid crew. Like

[01:15:42] Tyler: they, it's, I, I love talking to Mike because he. Really open-minded about ideas. Mm-hmm. about surfboards. Mm-hmm. and what you can and can't do to it. Like it's, you know, he's so, he's a real tinkerer.

[01:15:56] Yeah. And I think it's really enjoyable, like [01:16:00] going there and kind of shooting the shit Yeah. Is like one of the best, best things you could do, I think. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's, do Did you ever have any desire to do glassing or learn about it at all? Um,

[01:16:13] Paul: yeah. I'm, I would be interested in learning how, I mean, it's a completely different skill set.

[01:16:18] Yeah. Um, and I would probably need a completely different space cuz where I'm currently at in my garage, I don't know if I want like all those volatile chemicals just like sitting right next to my house, . Um, but uh, but yeah, I would be, I would be keen on learning how to do that. Um,

[01:16:37] Tyler: I feel like shaping is like, um, cooking and glassing is like baking.

[01:16:44] Paul: Yes. I would agree with that. And I'm a much better cook than I am a baker . Exactly. .

[01:16:49] Tyler: That's exactly it. Like I can cook anything, you know, but baking, oh God. Measuring, being exact. Forget about it. You know. ,

[01:16:58] Paul: no trickery in the glass job. [01:17:00]

[01:17:00] Tyler: definitely not .

[01:17:02] Paul: Um, but yeah, so, uh, so getting back to Joe. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, uh, after he sent me that email, I sent him another one.

[01:17:12] I was just like, yo, thank you so much. Like, you know, I wasn't sure if you were gonna respond or not. I'm sure you got a ton of other things to do. I'm not ordering a board from you. I really appreciate Yeah. You know, you taking the time and it just kinda went back and forth. And then ultimately he invited me to go to his Yeah.

[01:17:29] Place in Rockaway. And, uh, he was like, you know, you should just come by and watch me shape, um, so you can get an idea of the process. Um, which, I mean, I've never heard of anybody doing that to a complete stranger. Yeah. And, um, I mean, I, and that's basically what I, we had never really, we just communicated over email at that point.

[01:17:49] Um, and so I was just really blown away by his generosity and willingness to share what he knew with me and, um, like still just eternally, forever [01:18:00] grateful for that and I really learned a lot from him. That's awesome. Um, when I, in those early days of, I feel like that was a huge leg up in terms of getting things.

[01:18:12] Kind of starting to figure things out. It's

[01:18:15] Tyler: interesting cuz like Joe is heavily influenced by San Diego Shapers. Right. You know, like Josh Hall Yeah. You know, would come out and like a whole bunch of shapers from San Diego would come out here and then they would use his shaping bay. Right. And the circles Completeing teaches us Exactly.

[01:18:34] San Diego to shape, you know, . Yeah. It's so funny. , it's kind of cool. Yeah. How, as you've improved your shaping, uh, you know, you, you have boards and some shops too. Yeah. Correct. Like, has the, the business side of it. Like, are you enjoying that as well? And you know, obviously you're, you're gonna probably be like, I don't know how much of a business it is, [01:19:00] but , you know, but I mean, it is, I mean,

[01:19:02] Paul: it's different.

[01:19:02] Uh, yeah. I, I really enjoy, uh, hanging out with people Yeah. And talking about surfboards. Yeah. You know, it's like from. My day-to-day stuff, it's a real treat to go and do something like this or, yeah, even just like hang out with somebody else who likes surfboards and look at surfboards and talk about 'em.

[01:19:22] And so for me, like going to the shops with boards and talking about boards is a lot of fun for me. And I think there's some really cool people here. Like I've got boards at Pilgrim. Mm-hmm. and, um, enlightened out in Deer Park and, um, uh, island Surf Yeah. In West Hampton. And all those guys are super cool.

[01:19:43] Um, each shop is very different. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I mean, everybody kind of brings their own perspective on surfboards and what they're looking for, and I don't know. I, I really enjoy it and I try not to take it. Uh, I mean, there's obviously stressful aspects, but I try not to [01:20:00] take it too seriously, make it too stressful because for me, yeah.

[01:20:03] I've had a lot of other stressful things happen to me in my life and I want surfing. to be fun. Yeah. Not stressful. And, and that's kind of the beauty of surfing, is you can, you can turn it into whatever you want it to be. Mm-hmm. . And so, um, you know, I don't, I don't get to surf as much as I used to, maybe as much as I want to.

[01:20:25] But at the same time, like if there's a day, even if I haven't surfed for a really long time, if there's a day that's too crowded Yeah. And I'm feeling like I'm have to jock for a position and I'm getting stressed out about it, I'll go in. Yeah. Or I'll find a new peak. Yeah. Or if it's like, that looks really, really good.

[01:20:43] Those are beautiful waves, but I'm gonna take a beating for two hours to maybe get like two waves. I'd rather hang out with my family. Yeah. You know, like, I do not want the stress, like for like, I want surfing to be a safe haven where it's

[01:20:57] Tyler: fun. It's funny like how, [01:21:00] uh, I feel like with surfing sometimes there's this, uh, compulsion.

[01:21:05] this feeling that I should be surfing. Um, yeah. Especially when the waves are good. Well, mostly here

[01:21:11] Paul: because like it takes all the elements to line

[01:21:13] Tyler: up totally and you're like, ah, I should be like, yesterday was a great example. There was, I don't know if you got out yesterday. I did not. Not . You know, I went out in the morning, I only had like a limited amount of time Sure.

[01:21:26] Before work and I was like, oh, I'm just gonna get three waves and that'll be it and that'll be fine. And when I came in it was just fucking beautiful. Yeah. Like stunning. I went, did work around lunchtime, I go to check it and it was even better. Yeah. And I'm like, I should go surf right now. . I really should, but I have too many other things and obligation that I'll feel bad if I don't do these other things.

[01:21:56] And it's like, there's, there's a stress [01:22:00] all of a sudden you feel stressed. I should be surfing. You know? And you should never feel, you should never feel that. You should never feel like I have

[01:22:06] Paul: to go serious. But you, to your point Yeah. That, that is there , like that's their most, like, I should go right. But yeah.

[01:22:13] Like I should, but

[01:22:15] Tyler: yeah, I got things and, yeah. Well,

[01:22:17] Paul: and I'm okay with the things. Honestly. I've, I've had to come to terms with that over the years. I used to hate missing swells. Right. From like, ever since I moved to Long Island, like 10 years ago. Yeah. A little over 10 years ago. Um, I mean, okay. So if anybody from California is out there listening Yeah.

[01:22:36] If you think you're gonna show up to New York and blow people's minds, , you are incorrect. Unless you are like Artie a standout. Yeah. Incredible surfer. Yeah. The amount of things that need to come together, to produce a good surf session Yeah. Are astounding . It is, it is hard to be a [01:23:00] surfer in New York, but when you get those moments, it pays off.

[01:23:05] Yeah. Even more like, and I would say the amount of great days in New York, like San Diego's got surf every day, every, like there's always something.

[01:23:14] Tyler: Right. There's, you will alway you will never, not like you could always surf, right? Yeah. Its never surf.

[01:23:20] And

[01:23:20] Paul: there's really, really great days. Yeah. Here you don't get those in between.

[01:23:25] Like, oh, there's, there's something I'm gonna, I'm gonna go No, no, no. It's either good or it's not. . and there are, uh, you know, there are some, there are very good like world class days. Yeah. I would say. But here you can get those days sometimes by yourself. Yes. And, and that. Is priceless. Uh, and so I, if you, if you miss those days, it's really, really hard sometimes.

[01:23:54] Nice. It's hard, right? Yeah. But at the same time, for me, I've [01:24:00] gotten to a point personally where I do experience that stress and I have to check myself and I'm like, I don't wanna be stressed about it. Yeah. You know, like, I want it to be fun, . Like

[01:24:12] Tyler: it's, it's, it's funny, like, I don't know about you, but for me, like I feel this, um, Like, am I less of a surfer?

[01:24:22] You know, like I, because I def have defined myself as a surfer my whole life. Right. You know, and it's, it's part of my, it's a major part of my identity. Sure. You know, and so I start to think like, am I losing myself almost, or am I, uh, less than, than what I was, you know, would younger Tyler be calling me a a softie?

[01:24:44] You know, or getting soft, you know,

[01:24:46] Paul: by paying taxes and living like an inlander . Yeah.

[01:24:49] Tyler: Yeah. You know, did I sell out? Did I sell out? You know, that's kind of of like the, the, the mentality that I, I sometimes struggle with.

[01:24:57] Paul: Yeah. You know, I think that's gotta be just a [01:25:00] personal thing. Yeah. That everybody makes.

[01:25:02] Um, I've, I've got friends that, uh, you know, would certainly choose to. never miss that swell. Yeah. And be okay with that. But I'm personally, and that's rad for them. Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. And I, I think I, I am glad that they are not missing any swells, . That was me at a certain point, and I'm glad I did that at a certain point.

[01:25:24] But now there's um, lots of other things in my life, like my family and stuff like that, that is also Yeah. Really fulfilling and a lot of fun. And Absolutely. If, you know, if, but, but I think it also comes down to balance. Like, if I feel like I haven't surfed in a while, then I start really like getting protective of those swells.

[01:25:45] I, and that's just like if somebody asks me to do something when the, when the surf, you know, no. If it's like Thursday and it, it's looking like there might be a surf Monday, it's like, don't fucking ask me to do anything on Monday. Like we're, even if the surf ends up sucking on Monday, we're keeping it open[01:26:00]

[01:26:00] You know? So I think it's, it's just about the balance and, and I think surfing for me, , you know, when you're trying to balance all of these things, plays a very important role Yeah. In maintaining that balance. But I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not gonna be able to get out every single time.

[01:26:20] The surf is good. No . And that's okay. ,

[01:26:24] Tyler: let me ask then, um, how would you compare New York surf culture to like San Diego, where you grew up? What do you, what are your thoughts on it?

[01:26:34] Paul: So, uh, I thought San Diego was a wonderful place to grow up. Yeah. There's tons of history. Mm-hmm. both in board design and, and the people.

[01:26:43] Yeah. Um, a lot of really good surfers coming out of there. Um, New York is amazing, but in a different way. New York to me, has a really [01:27:00] incredible surf culture. Mm-hmm. . and I'm, I don't wanna offend anybody from either place. Uh, so any of these comments that Yeah. Come off as offensive, are certainly not intended to be.

[01:27:12] I love both places. Canceled , but, um, anybody and everybody, yeah. Has a surfboard in San Diego. Yeah. Here, it's a very tight-knit group. Like people, despite the fact that I live in an island Yeah. People are like, what? There's no surf in New York, . It's, it's like a sideshow. Yeah. Almost. Where it's, and you know, I'll go and pick my kid up from school in the springtime on a really nice day and somebody would be like, oh, it's beautiful today.

[01:27:44] You must have had a great day at the beach. . Like, how do I explain that? The sun being in the skies does not, does

[01:27:51] Tyler: not equate to

[01:27:52] Paul: good waves, , you know? And so, um, I think, uh, Well, and also what's, [01:28:00]what's I find really interesting too, um, New York is such a draw for interesting people. Yeah. Period.

[01:28:08] Tyler: Um, that's why you're on the show,

[01:28:10] That's,

[01:28:12] Paul: but uh, so you've got a really tight-knit group of people who grew up here. Yeah. Which is awesome. Uh, and, uh, a lot of those people are, some of the people that we've talked about who have become good friends, who I love. Like it's, and it's so nice to be, uh, welcomed into that group. Um, but you also have people coming here for other things mm-hmm.

[01:28:34] who also surf. Uh, and I think that makes for an interesting dynamic because it's not like, I think it's, it's a good thing for a culture when you're not defined by one thing Yeah. As a culture. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I think you, you get more of that in New York than in a place that is like so heavily, uh, entrenched in, in history and [01:29:00] what all these wonderful things.

[01:29:01] Yeah. But there, you know, if you look at any garage in California, there's going to be a surfboard in it. Yeah. Whereas here, it's a little bit more of a, almost an anomaly for some reason. Yeah. And I don't know why, but it's like people think that the beach is closed. Yeah. Uh, the last day of summer, ,

[01:29:18] Tyler: where do you surf?

[01:29:19] Around here is always the question, you know, and you're like, well, there is an ocean right here. Right. . But it, it, it's, it, I, I'd like how you, you point that out because I think, um, the, the, the nice thing about surfing here is that you have, um, groundedness to your surfing. Yeah. You know, where I think in other places you can get caught up in just the surfing.

[01:29:44] Yeah. Not just the, the, the, the act of doing it, but the whole scene, the culture, the industry, right. All of that stuff is there and God like it, it. , it sometimes sounds like it could be petty, it could be gossipy, it could be a bit silly, you know? [01:30:00] Whereas here it's like, I feel like we go surf and we do have a tight knit group.

[01:30:04] A lot of us, you know, we, we, we, you know, odds are it's within four degrees. Three degrees. Exactly. You know, someone Yeah. But there's so much more going on that, you know, the surfing is just such a small part. Right. You know, it's not like everything. Right. You know? Yeah. And that helps us like keep a little bit more of a, I don't know, like a, a, it's just, it keeps, keeps it in perspective.

[01:30:30] It's not better or worse, it's

[01:30:31] Paul: just different. It's refreshing different. Totally. Like, like I said, I think growing up in San Diego was wonderful and I'm so grateful, um, that I did, and I've got that experience of seeing all those people. Yeah. Like doing all those amazing things. Um, and to this day, San Diego's a wonderful place.

[01:30:47] Um, but I'm also really glad to be a New Yorker. I love being a New Yorker. Yeah. Do you

[01:30:51] Tyler: do, um, . Have you, have you gotten your daughter on a board? Yes.

[01:30:57] Paul: And uh, yeah, she likes it a lot. [01:31:00] Um, we took this pa last summer off. Yeah. Because of the sharknato. We experienced and it's, I not necessarily, uh, fearing for her safety so much more that I was afraid that if she saw a shark, she'd be traumatized.

[01:31:20] She would never, ever want to get on the surfboard again. Right. Um, and so we actually talked about it and I told her exactly what I just told you, and she was like, yeah, I think it'd be okay. I was like, okay. This summer, like we're back at it.

[01:31:32] Tyler: Nice. Yeah. Um, what boards are you shaping now? Like, what are, what are predominant shapes that you're enjoying, shaping, or that you like to, to make?

[01:31:43] Paul: Fishes, gliders, bogs.

[01:31:46] Tyler: I've heard your gliders are pretty sweet. .

[01:31:50] Paul: They're, they're pretty fun. And I think a glider. I mean, I don't wanna let the cat out of the bag too much because the last thing you want at your, I love the gliders out. It's [01:32:00]everybody riding like an 11 footer. That'd be absolute chaos. Be dangerous.

[01:32:03] So everybody who's not interested in a glider should just close their ears and then everybody else like should understand that. A glider in New York, I think is one of the more important boards you could have in your quiver, because there's so many days that are just small and clean, that even on a log, you'd look at it and be like, eh, I don't know.

[01:32:23] But man, that could be like one of the funnest days of the year for you on a glider. Just lined up jetty to jetty you, you know, depending on what type of glider you get. Mm-hmm. , you got a lower fin profile so you don't have to worry about. grind. Nine, nine and a half inch fin. Yeah. Like grinding on the inside.

[01:32:38] Sandbar. , you can like skate right over it, you know? Are

[01:32:42] Tyler: you, what, what's your preferred fin setup on your glider?

[01:32:46] Paul: Um, that's a good question. So, depends on the glider. Yeah. Um, but if I'm riding something, say with like a pintail, I prefer, uh, just a single fin, like [01:33:00] a, like a skip fry. Like, and I usually under fin those, so like for my 11 one I ride a eight and a half inch Wow.

[01:33:09] Fry fry fin in it. Um, and that's just because, I mean, you get less drag. You don't, uh, when you're, when you're on a board like that, you're the, the rails, at least the way I do 'em, are well foiled. Yeah. Um, and so your inside rail has a lot of grip. Yeah. On the wave. And you've got bottom contours, like the concaves and stuff to hold you in the pocket.

[01:33:35] And the Finn is just there to like, stay wise, just make sure that you're not slipping out. Yeah. Um, and so you don't really want a ton of fin on a board like that. Um, and I've also ridden, uh, like a bigger glider. Twin keel, yeah. Quite a lot. And those work insane. And it's so fun. Dude, let me ask you, Simmons setup also really good.

[01:33:57] Tyler: Is it easier to pivot on a [01:34:00] single than like the keel glider if you need to pivot?

[01:34:04] Paul: Um, not necessarily me

[01:34:08] Tyler: personally asking now, like and if I were to get a quad set up, is that gonna make it even harder to, to pivot then?

[01:34:14] Paul: Yeah. I mean, personally if I were doing it myself yeah. I would keep it twin rather than a quad.

[01:34:23] Yeah. Unless you're maybe wanting to get like, into some juicier surf. The, the quad might be, But then why? I mean, I'm sure glider's super fun and juicier surf if you can pedal out. But like so are other boards that you might, may have been neglecting in your quiver. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but uh, yeah, so for the way I have been making 'em, there's a pretty low rocker profile.

[01:34:48] Yeah. Intentionally. Because you want it to go fast. Exactly. But one of the things that you can do to get a little bit more pivot out of it is put a little bit more tail rocker into it. Mm-hmm. and [01:35:00] you're losing a little speed, but at the same time you're riding like an 11 foot board at a beach break.

[01:35:05] Like speed is not something that, not like you have a surplus of speed. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Um, and

[01:35:12] Tyler: you gotta avoid people. That's the thing. . That's why I'm like pivot, you know, like, cuz otherwise you. , you going in one direction and you just hope people get outta the way.

[01:35:22] Paul: Right. Right.

[01:35:24] And so, I don't know, like with the, uh, with the fish, like the, the glider kind of fish set up, um, it turns like a fish. You know, you get that kind of skateboardy Yeah. Really drive you down the line. Feel it's just a lot more board involved. Um, do

[01:35:41] Tyler: you, so, so here's the thing. The reason why we won't have too many gliders in the lineup is no one has space to store them.

[01:35:49] Correct. Especially in the city here. Right. Which is great. But now I'm about to throw a curve ball here that may fuck up the, the lineup for years to come. [01:36:00] What if we do a glider with Mike Becker's carbon compact so that it breaks in half? Have you seen this carbon compact? Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. And you can just split it in half.

[01:36:11] Yeah. And that way you can store it. and then like, you know, it's only like five feet on each side instead of Yeah.

[01:36:18] Paul: That's certainly an option. Um, I am not 100% sure on this, but I think the carbon compacts are epoxy. Yeah. Is that a problem? And for, I have not, have not been building my gliders with epoxy because I, I personally like a little bit of weight behind them.

[01:36:35] Yeah. I think it helps you down the line and it just adds to that kind of feeling of glide. And so with an epoxy it'll certainly change the ride a little bit. And I haven't written one epoxy myself, so I can't. Say, uh, I'm sure it still works and it would still be incredibly fun. Um, but it would certainly be different.

[01:36:54] So,

[01:36:54] Tyler: all right, so I'm throwing some, some ideas for shapes here. , you know, I love [01:37:00] to do with whenever get, get a shaper and I'm like, all right, here's an idea. We do an epoxy one, but we put weights on it. , strategically strategic weights that we put in there, and we do the carving compact. And yeah, I think that that might work.

[01:37:15] Maybe even, like, I sometimes figure, I think maybe you'd get a smoother or damper ride if you took epoxy, but the bottom was like a thin layer of like urethane or, or some sort of rubbery bottom. Yeah. With, uh, dimples, golf ball, dimples, ,

[01:37:36] Paul: I mean, you've seen. Like boogie board or body boards, like with exactly.

[01:37:40] That setup. Exactly. And that's what I'm saying. Yeah. .

[01:37:44] Tyler: Let's, let's like make a Frankenstein and you get skunk works together. , . I love it. Um, so Paul, this was so much fun. I really, this is great. I really enjoy talking to you here and um, [01:38:00] God, like we, we have to, I think it'd be really fun to get you and some other shapers on too.

[01:38:06] I would love to.

[01:38:07] Paul: That'd be so much fun. Yeah, I, that'd

[01:38:09] Tyler: be really cool. Um, where can our listeners find your boards?

[01:38:13] Paul: Uh, I am an Instagram guy.

[01:38:16] Tyler: That's it. You don't even have a website, right? No

[01:38:18] Paul: website? No Website. Just Instagram Chop wood Surfboards. Cash

[01:38:21] Tyler: only. . cash only. Right? Cash only

[01:38:25] Paul: or tradable goods?

[01:38:26] Tradeable goods. Oh, okay. Alright. No, no, no. Uh, yeah. Uh, yeah. You can find me on Instagram Chop wood surfboards. And, um, I am very responsive. If you send me a message, I, I usually try to write back very

[01:38:40] Tyler: namely the name. What is the significance of the name? C wood,

[01:38:43] Paul: by the way. So it actually is significant.

[01:38:47] Mm-hmm. . Um, it comes from a proverb, chop wood, or before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, uhhuh, , chop wood, carry water, uh, after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. And of course, proverbs can mean a lot of different [01:39:00] things to a lot of people. And my takeaway from that particular proverb, which, uh, kind of, um, was a bit of a personal mantra when I was going through difficult times and Yeah.

[01:39:11] And but started shaping and realized that, uh, the shaping for me was chopping wood and carrying water, and it was about getting back to simplicity. Mm-hmm. to come out the other end and like, a little bit better than I am now. Uh, so taking it back to just the simple motions of, of making a board, I love that in order to hopefully, you know, help, help beat these issues that I, uh, was currently going through at the time.

[01:39:43] Yeah. And so it became chop wood surfboards.

[01:39:46] Tyler: I love that. And that's a really great, uh, way to end this show actually. Um, so go chop wood at Chop wood surfboard. Yep. Go to at chop wood surfboards, [01:40:00] give Paul follow and uh, check out his beautiful boards. And you can also find his boards, uh, you know, um, we're going find Islands Island Surf, island Surf, enlightening Pilgrim and, and Pilgrim.

[01:40:12] So you can find him in three, the three areas of New York, basically. Yeah, you have the city, the center, and

[01:40:19] Paul: out east. And I'm also coming summer, uh, gonna be doing a couple for Adam Marr. Awesome. Adam Montauk. So it'll be great. So

[01:40:27] Tyler: amazing. Um, and, uh, for all our listeners, don't forget to like and subscribe to Swell season.

[01:40:34] Check us out on, uh, at swell seasoned surf radio on Instagram. You can go to our website for past episodes, www dot swell season, surf.com. And uh, I want to give a shout out to Joe here, our engineer and uh, Rockefeller Center for hosting us here at the Newsstand studio. And, uh, yeah. Um, Chop wood carry water [01:41:00] and experience enlightenment.

[01:41:02] Thank you. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. Pleasure. Ah, that was great man. That was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Oh, that was wonderful. Really appreciate you.