The Big Sea with Lewis Anderson & Chris Nelson

[00:00:00] Tyler: Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Can you live with the true cost of a neo Preme wetsuit? That is the question being asked by my guest this week. Surfing is a 10 billion global industry built on the dream of carefree spirits, crystal clear waters, and an even clear connection to the natural world, and has never been more popular than it is today.

[00:00:33] Surfing has posed as a champion of environmental issues, but there is a dirty secret and people are dying. The Big Sea is a fully independent documentary that was filmed over three years in the Australia, France, Spain, uk, and Ireland. Lewis Arnold and writer Chris Nelson have followed the story from the Communities of [00:01:00] Cancer Alley in Louisiana through to the wave rich beaches of California to the heart of the surf industry and beyond.

[00:01:08] Through speaking with surf brands, industry leaders, surfers, cultural commentators, and environmental campaigners, they ask, can you live with the true cost of neo preme wetsuits and will surfing lead the charge of the outdoors industry and beyond, away from neo preme to a more viable alternative.

[00:01:30] I'm joined by the filmmakers Louis Arnold and Chris Nelson on this episode of the Swell Season Podcast. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Stoked to have you here. Thank you. Hello. Hello, . Um, so. I got to watch this, your documentary, and it's incredible. It's also kind of depressing, , I'm not gonna lie. [00:02:00] Like it definitely, I immediately, actually not even after, during I, I basically put like a Patagonia lac wetsuit on my shopping cart.

[00:02:11] And now, now I'm waiting for my next paycheck . Um, the question I, I wanna start with really and, and kind of walk a lot of our listeners through this is first like, let's get to the, the key ingredients in all of our wetsuits, um, and, and so many other products that are out there in the world. What is chlorine and how is that made?

[00:02:36] Lewis: Do you wanna handle this one, Chris .

[00:02:39] Chris: Um, so traditional chlorine, so traditional chlorine rubber was invented decades ago. 50 odd years ago by, um, Dupal, and it's a synthetic rubber sponge. So it was made to basically simulate natural rubber but be a bit more [00:03:00] durable. Um, and it's made, basically made from petrochemicals.

[00:03:05] So during the distillation process, we get to a substance called chloroprene, which is a highly volatile substance, and that is then forms a polymer, which is basically the building blocks of chloroprene rubber, which is the neoprene that we know today. So it's basically baked into a giant loaf of bread and then cut like you'd cut a loaf of bread, basically into huge thin sheets and then sewn together into the wetsuits that we were, but also lots of other products that are used around the world.

[00:03:37] Tyler: And who is Danka then?

[00:03:41] Chris: So Danka is a company that that manufactures Chloroprene rubber chips. And these chips are shipped around the world and made into various forms of neoprene. So they are a, basically a petrochemical company.

[00:03:58] Tyler: So [00:04:00] they, now let me, let me ask, like they are the, the, the largest in the US producers of, of, uh, chloroprene, is that correct?

[00:04:09] The,

[00:04:10] Lewis: the, I believe they are the only producers of Chloroprene.

[00:04:13] Tyler: Are they are, do they, are they the global leaders of this? This, like you, did you say that like globally they're the probably one of the biggest producers, would you say? Yes, definitely. So what's their history? Like? How did they form, how did they, how did they, how did all of this come about?

[00:04:31] Basically, I'm kind of, I'm hoping you can kind of walk our listeners through this story cuz there's, there's a lot of history here, you know, and it's kind of. Well, actually, before we even get there, I want to know how did this story come to you? How did it come to you guys? How did you discover, um, all this?

[00:04:51] Cuz I don't think any of us in the surfing world knew or really gave much thought to where our, our, our near [00:05:00] preme came from. I mean, I always assumed it was made in Japan, you know, cuz there's always this talk of Japanese YaMma motor rubber and all this stuff. So I just assumed it was made over there overseas.

[00:05:12] Um, but that's not the case. So I was hoping you can walk us through this journey almost, um, of how you discovered this and then maybe the journey of like how a wetsuit is kind of made.

[00:05:25] Lewis: Yes, certainly. I mean, the story has been sort of hidden in plain sight for quite a long time. It was, um, after the, um, the E P A.

[00:05:39] National Air Toxics report that came out in 2015. Large media organizations, I believe CNN in the States in The Guardian, which is a British respected newspaper. My favorite. Yeah, they, um, the Guardian particularly, they did like a year long, um, [00:06:00] report, like an expose over a year looking into, uh, the results that had come out of that, uh, toxics report.

[00:06:09] And it focused a lot around, um, cancer Alley, which is, I mean, I guess people in America must know, but it's like a hundred mile, pretty much stretch of industry along the Mississippi, um, 200 chemical plants there. And there was a, a real sort of, um, the report showed that there was a real problem. Around a certain area, St.

[00:06:36] John, the Baptist Parish, which had like, by far the, uh, highest risk of cancer and in particular the census tracted around the Danka plant. Mm-hmm. . So, um, that was in The Guardian quite a lot. My background is in photo journalism. Mm-hmm. . Um, I've worked in like, surf media [00:07:00] alongside like a mainstream media career up until about five years ago where I just went fully surf

[00:07:06] Tyler: So, um, so sorry. You're never gonna get another job now in surf after this film. Yeah. Well

[00:07:13] Lewis: that, that's what's, yeah, that's a bit close to the bone toilet of your recipe. .

[00:07:20] Chris: Sorry. .

[00:07:22] Lewis: But yeah. Um, a former colleague who knew I was a surfer and was working at the Guardian told me about this expose and, um, , the guardian themselves, they hadn't sort of connected neoprine with surfing.

[00:07:40] Mm-hmm. , um, you know, as a lifelong surfer, I've, and someone who's worked in the media a lot, surf media, you know, I, it sort of dawned on me that I didn't know where my wetsuits had come from. Mm-hmm. and, you know, I've had wetsuits from pretty much every brand you can think of over the years. You know, [00:08:00] quite a lot of, quite a lot of near preen.

[00:08:02] Mm-hmm. . And, um, it just sort of struck a chord and I started looking into it. Um, and, you know, I was wanting to work on stuff that, that I was interested in really. And, you know, I, I was just moving into full-time surf media and just decided to get on a plane and start ringing and knocking on doors and find out what was going on.

[00:08:28] So that was about like three years ago. K went over there, came back with, um, like the first sort of edit of the film and a photo essay about it. Mm-hmm. submitted it that to Chris as you know, the, um, as I d I dunno if everyone knows, but Chris is director of the London Sea Film Festival. It's kind of a big

[00:08:52] Tyler: deal.

[00:08:53] Yeah. So he got made any leather band books and his place s of Rich Mahogany, so he's kind of huge [00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Chris: Yeah. That

[00:09:01] Lewis: So, and, and sent this film off, which it wa it was like an artistic take on the situation. It wasn't, um, like a structured thought out documentary. Um, and it ha it did have a real sort of surf film ethos that original cut.

[00:09:20] Um, and. , that's when sort of Chris must have watched that. It must have struck a chord with him as well. I dunno how much he knew about it at the time. And, uh, we got into discussions about it and decided that, you know, this is kind of like a big story. Um, it, it, I, I'd pitched it to either surf media who I was working with and they didn't really want to touch it.

[00:09:44] I, I thought that would be, I just thought it was a given, you know, this is a, this is like a new story, which, you know, I thought people would be like just falling over themselves to run it. But no, it was the sort of, The, uh, the [00:10:00] way it was rejected made us think that this is actually quite a good story.

[00:10:03] You know, this needs to get out there. It's all, it was almost like it was getting suppressed.

[00:10:08] Tyler: I'm curious, like, what was that, what did that look like? What did those rejection kind of talks or emails look like? Like, um, were they, were they threatening almost? Like, don't you ever dare talk about this ? Or, or was it more like, uh, don't wanna, not just,

[00:10:25] Lewis: just somewhere.

[00:10:29] Mainly it was just, we don't want to run this because it will upset our advertisers, like quite open about that. Wow. Um, which, you know, you know, That's not how I, you know, that's, that doesn't show much journalistic integrity in my opinion.

[00:10:51] Tyler: Oh wait, are you saying that surf magazines don't have much journalistic integrity?

[00:10:58] Is that what you're saying? [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Lewis: Well, , that might sound laughable, but, you know, sorry, . I dunno. I've respected surf media. Yeah. You know what I mean? Maybe I'm naive. Yeah. But you know, like I begun photography because I liked the pictures in surf marks, you know? Yeah. Way mark. So, you know, maybe I'm like old school and like naive and, but I, you know, I'm one of those sad people with a stack of surf mags, like as high as the ceiling, you know?

[00:11:31] Yeah, it, it was, um, it just added another level to it that, that like rejection. Yeah. Like, no, like, I mean, even now that's happening with the story really down the line a long way, you know, like, um, so it, it just gave us a little bit of, well, you know, quite a lot of motivation to make sure this gets out there and in a, a form that, like, not just an [00:12:00] artistic take on it that leaves everything, you know.

[00:12:03] Open to interpretation. You know, it's, I mean, it's hard when people haven't seen the film, but hopefully it is a creative piece of work. It's not just like, you know, like a boring documentary. It does have like the surf film ethos, but also it's like super well researched and super well structured.

[00:12:22] Tyler: Uh, it's, it's pretty compelling to be honest.

[00:12:25] Like there's a real, there's a wonderful listeners, like when you do get to see us, I, I totally highly recommend it, but it's, it's compelling cuz you. In the film, you, you have this wonderful contrast or this contrast of, you know, the people who live in Cancer Alley and you kind of go back and forth between them and then these, you know, the surfers and, and, and, uh, you know, and their lives or how they've, you know, interacted with, with surfing over their lives and, and how wetsuits have played a role in that and you kind of, you know, [00:13:00] go back and forth between the two.

[00:13:01] And it, on one level, it just makes, makes surfers, makes us look or seen kind of ridiculous on one level, you know? Um, it, it feels like, oh my gosh, we're, you know, killing these people almost. Um, all for, because we need this product to have fun in the winter. , you know, basically, or in colder water climate. So it did really gives some perspective on, on everything that it seems to be happening.

[00:13:31] Um,

[00:13:32] Chris: it's, it's not something that we really shied away from. Yeah. Like, so when Lewis brought me the short film, I could immediately see the potential in it. And Lewis has got a really great eye for detail and a very specific style. And I knew the story was, had so many layers and I thought if we could work together, we could draw these threads out together.

[00:13:58] And we had a lot, a lot of [00:14:00] in-depth discussions about how we do that and whether do we need to bring in some, you know, black characters within surfing. And we were like, look, surfing is so white. We have to confront that. We have to confront the, um, the privileged life that we all have as surfers, you know, the, the mainstream surfing.

[00:14:21] And also, um, , you know, the way we wanted to tell the story. So I think, I think the way that we've worked, it's been like a real team effort to kind of draw out all the elements within the story and, and the, the layers within it, you know, the history of an, you know, these were former slave plantations that were then became chemical factories, and the people that live nearby are the, you know, generations of the offspring of the slaves who lived on that land and were allowed to buy land and build homes that were gonna be there forever, homes, and then they set these chemical factories [00:15:00] next door.

[00:15:00] You know, so

[00:15:02] Tyler: it, it's, it's amazing the layers that are in this film, you know, because it's not, it's not just environmental, it's socioeconomic, it's racial, it's, it's, um, you know, there's, there's governmental malfeasance in here. There's, you know, uh, it's, it's wild. Like how. How much you cram into this film too.

[00:15:26] Like you could have made this like even longer. You know, it's, it's a beautifully, uh, edited and well shot, but it's like, there's so much there. Um, and I wanna dive on into the, all of those things, but I, I think we kind of need to pull back a little bit and, and, and kind of describe for the listeners what's, what's the exact, exact process of making a wetsuit?

[00:15:49] What goes into it? How does this happen? Like we, we know that there's this loaf of chloroprene, basically, but it's, it's wild to think like no one ever thinks. [00:16:00] All of our neo preme comes from this one place in, in Louisiana like everyone thinks. I mean, I was talking to some people yesterday, even on a text thread, and I'm like, oh, wait until this interview I have, and they're like, I just thought everything came from Japan.

[00:16:15] So if you can like, just walk us through this process of, of how wetsuit is made, uh, I think would be really helpful.

[00:16:23] Lewis: Yeah. In, in simple terms, Tyler, there's, there's three types of three materials really used for surf and wetsuits. You've got natural rubber, which people probably know is the brand name, ulex.

[00:16:36] Mm-hmm. . You've got chloro rubber, which is neoprene, which is, um, derived from petrochemicals oil,

[00:16:49] Tyler: basically. Oil basically. Yep.

[00:16:51] Lewis: And then you've got limestone neoprene, which is. Chemically the same as chloroprene rubber. It's [00:17:00] just instead of being derived from oil, it's derived from mind limestone. And that's, to my knowledge, all the limestone neoprine is all made in Japan.

[00:17:12] So what has made it danka in Louisiana is petrochemical neoprine. However, limestone neoprine chemically is the same. It's just a different way to get the chlorine. And that is made by Danka as well. .

[00:17:31] Tyler: So Danka has a factory in Japan as well. I think there's fried

[00:17:35] Lewis: plants in Japan and a big mine.

[00:17:39] Chris: There's, there's, so there are two major sites for the Chloro River that goes into wetsuits.

[00:17:46] So there are a number. Neoprine fractures around the world, but neoprine goes into quite a lot of things like buildings and cars and, you know, computer circuits and, you know, it's, it's used in insulation. [00:18:00] But for the, for the type of neoprine that works in wetsuits is virtually all provided by Danka from one of the two plants.

[00:18:08] So either the USA or Japan. The, the only plant in Japan

[00:18:14] Tyler: and the near the, the limestone cur is, is almost worse it sounds like, because it requires an, an insane amount of energy to melt the limestone into , the, the chlorine basically. Correct. Like, yeah. I mean we, that sounds awful. You're using oil either way, basically ,

[00:18:39] Chris: yeah.

[00:18:39] If you, if you talk to someone who is a, um, material scientist, you know, or a biochemist, they will probably tell you that limestone so-called limestone neoprine is basically stalled. Chlorine rubber is probably worse than deriving it from petrochemical, which, which is [00:19:00] harsh because, I mean, petrochemical is like the lowest of the low, getting something from oil.

[00:19:06] But the amount of, you know, energy that goes into making the the limestone nerine is horrendous. And the, the, you know, the carbon emissions, you know, it, it emits. So, um, yeah, it's certainly, it's been labeled for years as a, as a green nerine. Yeah. And I think that's been one of our major problems within the surf industry is no one has been honest about that, you know, and so therefore, Surfers hear this story, they go, but I'm wearing a green near pre.

[00:19:40] How can this, you know, be this, this can't be true. How do, how is our wetsuit linked to cancer alley when it's green? You know, and it's because it comes from Danka who operate a plant in cancer alley. It's just that simple.

[00:19:56] Tyler: So, so the Chloroprene from, from [00:20:00] Louisiana is shipped to Japan, basically. That's where like, pretty much most of our wetsuits are made Japan and China, I assume.

[00:20:09] Um, so they're shipped over there. So we're using oil and burning up tons of fuel to bring the material over there, which is then made into our wetsuits and made and then shipped back to us basically in the us. So , it just, and around the world it seems kind of, Super wasteful already. ,

[00:20:32] Chris: I think you're getting into it.

[00:20:34] It

[00:20:34] Lewis: is a really wasteful process. Um, it's kind of like a monopoly though, so it works for the people who are in charge of the monopoly. And it's never been questioned, you know, it's never been, you know, we're talking, you know, when I said those three types of neoprene, like, you know, 98% of wetsuits rely on [00:21:00] chloroprene rubber.

[00:21:01] Yeah. Like, you know, natural rubber is like a tiny part of the market at the moment.

[00:21:06] Tyler: Yeah. And that's the lac.

[00:21:09] Lewis: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Tyler: Um, it just, it's, it's, it's pretty wild. Like, and, and let me ask like, how in your inve investigation, how many of the surf brands and the people in the surf industry have been aware of this?

[00:21:29] And for how long do you think they've been aware that this, you know, this uh, this, you know, their products are linked to Cancer Alley. Did you find that, did you find people that were Oh, yeah. Yeah. We knew about it, but we've kept on going.

[00:21:45] Chris: Uh, I, I personally think that they fall into two camps. Yeah. I think there were people who were aware of this, and then I think there were people who had, didn't really know their supply [00:22:00] chains.

[00:22:00] And so like you thought, well, our near preen comes from Japan or wherever, so we're clean, you know? Yeah. But there have definitely been people in the industry, in my opinion, who've known about this for quite a while, and have put their heads in the.

[00:22:19] Tyler: It's, it's funny like how I feel like when, when Patagonia first came out with their wetsuit lime, it was touted with the limestone rubber and really promoted in a green way. And I wonder if that was like starting at least the limestone stuff off on the wrong marketing foot because we all then just associated, well, Patagonia does this.

[00:22:43] Limestone must be good. And, and they've been trying to make up for it lately with Lacs, but it's still like, uh, it's the lingering effects of that, um, kind of image is definitely out there and there's nothing out there to [00:23:00] really counter this narrative. No. Yeah,

[00:23:05] Lewis: yeah, I think that's true. You know, um, there's, there's been a lot of marketing from most brands who use limestone neoprine, and that's gonna take a lot of unpicking, you know, but, um, the, the brands, you know, where we, where we're trying to move the story on a little bit.

[00:23:25] Mm-hmm. , like UX was developed initially just f purely from like an environmental point of view, you know, that it's, um, less emissions, you know, it's not relying on petrochemicals, the, this, the sort of social racial, you know, in like, um, commercial side of it that is happening down at Cancer Alley. That wasn't part of it.

[00:23:50] Yeah. So the, um, like, my understanding is that more brands than [00:24:00] Patagonia, At the start of the development of ux, like all brands were invited to be part of it. Mm-hmm. , but they didn't want to put their research and development budget if they have one into, um, you know, natural rubber. They'd rather, you know, keep things how they are and invest in making chloroquine rubber, rubber more stretchy and durable every year.

[00:24:25] Tyler: It's, it's interesting, like, so let's, let's talk about the UX rubber for a second. Um, this comes from a tree, correct. And, and, uh, I follow UX on, on social media. They do a really good job of telling this story of, um, you know, how it's made. Um, I was hoping maybe, uh, have you done that research and looked into like how the UX is made and what that process looks like as opposed to, um, the, the, uh, chloroprene basically,

[00:24:58] Lewis: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Um,[00:25:00]

[00:25:02] well, UX at present is literally just tapped. It's just rubber tapped from a tree and washed. It's quite like a, I wouldn't say it's an organic process, but it's fsc, you know, um, certified on its, um, the, the, it's, excuse me, it's, it's literally quite a sort of hands-on process where it's just tapped from the tree and it, it's washed and it ends up in like, just literally like a big bale of rubber and that's just shit shipped off.

[00:25:40] It's like, it's quite a sort of simple process. And, uh, then that is just that, that rubber actually just replaces the chlorine chip

[00:25:51] Chris: and it's mostly small holdings. So they're small holdings. They're people who were, have always traditionally been on a low income. [00:26:00] And I think what one of the good things about what they're trying to do with Lux is to give people a higher wage, to make it FSC certified, to move towards a regenerative agricultural system to away from a monoculture.

[00:26:14] So you're improving the landscape as well. Um, and I think that's quite a stark contrast in that you have, you know, um, low income community, you know, living in Central America and, uh, Southeast Asia producing ux. And then on the, the contrast to that is this low income minority community living outside the DANKA plan, being horrendously poisoned every day by this, you know, chemical giant.

[00:26:45] And, and that's the thing is, is.

[00:26:49] Tyler: For us. It's quite a contrast, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:26:52] Chris: Yeah. And we, I mean, I always like to say we don't have a dog in the fight because we've made this film work completely independently and so it, [00:27:00] we're, we're not advocates for you, Alex. I think our whole mission with this film is just to put the fact out there and let people make up their own minds.

[00:27:09] Cuz we've been denied the facts for so long. So you know, we've all been told, here's the latest we to oh, and it's, you know, sustainable or it's green and we all think we're making the right choice, but we've not been told all the facts. And I think the facts just need to be out there. And some people will carry on buying traditional oil near.

[00:27:34] they will go, you know, I have to have them latest in performance or whatever. But that's their choice to make, you know, we, we just want people to be armed with the information, let the consumer vote with their dollar or their pound as to, to which products they buy.

[00:27:51] Tyler: Well, it's, it's interesting, in California have this Prop 65 where you have to label your product whether it's [00:28:00] cancerous or not.

[00:28:00] And you know, or can cause it in wetsuits are labeled with this. They have to have a label saying that this could cause cancer on every wetsuit that is made with the, the chloroprene, which is fascinating, but no one has really, I think, looked at that seriously until now. Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:28:20] Chris: and it's something that Jamie Brik says in the film.

[00:28:22] You know, he, he says, you go into a wetsuit and there's, you go into, um, a surf shop, there's a smell. Mm-hmm. , there's a, it's a chemical smell and it's a petrochemical smell. You go into the wetsuit area. and the way he says it, it's like, that's not the smell of surfing, you know? Yeah. It's a, it's a petrochemical plant, you know, so it gives you an idea of, of basically what you are buying.

[00:28:47] Tyler: It's, it's, it's disturbing, you know? Um, let me ask like, who are like, let's, let's lay out like where can Exactly. Cancer Alley is and who [00:29:00] are these people who, who you interviewed in there, you know, uh, I know we, we've kind of touched on this, but I want to kind of go a little deeper on some of these people that you, you got to speak with, and what are some of the health issues that many of them are facing?

[00:29:18] Lewis: Um, well the, the Council rally is, as I said earlier, it's about a hundred mile stretch of industry, pretty much between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. Um, On former plantation land. I think there's a lot of companies have been offered like attractive tax breaks to, to locate over there. There's British companies, Australian companies, Chinese, everything really, you know, uh, I, I'm told it's 200 like heavy industry and chemical plants there.

[00:29:50] Geez. So I, you know, I don't suppose anywhere is particularly clean in that area. Yeah, I mean, it is heavily [00:30:00] industrialized. Um, you know, I think it might be the, I'm told it's the, uh, most industrialized zone in the like western hemisphere. So it's, it's, there's a lot of, a lot of industry going on. But the fact that, you know, the very worst part of that is the place where chlorine is made, you know, um, by a long way as well.

[00:30:26] You know, it's like, , it's a real sort of, it's like a real spike in, in, uh, risk of cancer. And, uh, so the people who we met there, they are the people like living on how they, they term it on the danka fence line. Um, it's like a couple of square miles, this census tract. And, um, I think it's, I think it's 93% black, um, quarter, about a quarter of the population live below the poverty [00:31:00] line.

[00:31:00] You know, it's, um, it's quite a deprived area, but the people were met there, they always, they always sort of sensed something was wrong. Um, yeah, you know, just like anecdotally that, you know, a lot of serious illnesses, you know, a lot of problems like the children having problems like early life cancers, um, You know, real sort of debil, debil, debilitating health conditions, like really high asthma rates, that kind of thing.

[00:31:34] And then it was when th this to, um, the 2015 e p a report came out and it just sort of, you know, it sort of crystallized in, in the resident's mind that it wasn't just in their imagination. You know, they, they've been getting poisoned by chlorine emissions from Danka since, since the se like late, late sixties.

[00:31:57] Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Um, [00:32:00] and, um, they've been campaigning against it, you know, they've taken it state, you know, local government, federal government state, and they've had, like, they've sort of, they've come away with the impression that everyone, the powers that be, are all on the side of Danka, you know. Wow. Um, so kind of.

[00:32:21] Just so frustrated. Nowhere to turn. Um, you know, the, the guys we've spoke to over there, they've done like countless interviews over the years. You know, nothing's changed and it's must be a really demoralized position to be in. You know, they onto the sort of people you, you know, they hadn't even connected it with surfing really, cuz they just, surfing's just not on their radar, you know?

[00:32:48] Yeah. Um, they, they, they, there's one quote in the film where Leticia, one of the people was speak, was spoke to. She says that like, they just don't have, they just don't have leisure. [00:33:00] Yeah. Let alone surfing, you know, so it's, um, it's a pretty shocking situation. There's a school there mm-hmm. , which, um, you

[00:33:11] Chris: know,

[00:33:14] Lewis: We've been told some of the rate, like the actual levels of chlorine in the air at that school have been horrendous.

[00:33:21] Um, it really affects, you know, younger people. There's, um,

[00:33:29] you know, it's just, it's, it's a, just a really sort of shocking situation, which, you know, it it for ex, you know, you mentioned earlier about um, like wetsuits have to have a label Yeah. Saying that, you know, they've got this chlorine in which, like, I think in California chlorine is clustered as a car.

[00:33:47] Synogen. Yeah. But for some, for somehow in Louisiana it's clustered a likely carcinogen, . So, you know, I mean, I dunno how you can have [00:34:00] two classifications in the same country, but, um, you know, they're living with that classification, which in effect gives danka, you know, a lot of. R room to, to justify their position and to query every report that C comes out to tie any sort of threats to their operation up in, like in, you know, just take legal action and delay everything.

[00:34:31] And, you know, nothing really has changed. They, they, are, they, they're actually, I think they're in the throes the second time trying to get chlorine, like, declassified further to make the problem go away, you know, um, they, they, they are, I have had their reports sent over over recently that they're actually getting a little bit of heat.

[00:34:56] Yeah. Like they've gotta, uh, dispose of the, the [00:35:00] chlorine waste in a more cleaner way.

[00:35:03] Tyler: So, so what do they do with that waste right now? Like where, how does, how does chlorine waste get, get, you know, managed currently? Well,

[00:35:11] Lewis: it, I think that actually in the process of having to take it offsite, but up until now, like I'm talking like last month, I think there, this, some enforcement came in, it's been being disposed of in brine pits, which, um, essentially is just putting it in the

[00:35:31] Tyler: ground.

[00:35:32] What, like what's a brine pit? I am, I'm, I'm not familiar with this.

[00:35:37] Lewis: Well, it's, well, I'm not familiar with it either, but are It

[00:35:44] Tyler: sounds awful. , yeah.

[00:35:46] Lewis: I assume it's a, uh, some sort of sail line pit that they can Wow. Dispose of it in

[00:35:52] Tyler: and it, it must get into water and everything then, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:35:57] Totally.

[00:35:58] Lewis: And, and that's where a lot of [00:36:00] the emissions have come from. Cause it's literally disposing of it in a pit, so it couldn't go anywhere.

[00:36:05] Tyler: So the people in St. John's. What is their main work? Do many of them work at the factory as well? Is that part of it? What, what, what's the other, uh, you know, the normal, you know, kind of industry there that they, you know, live and work in, you know, otherwise I was curious.

[00:36:25] Lewis: Yeah. The, the local residents don't work in the plant. It's like out of town contractors who come down. I mean, obviously when I was there, I was staying in the hotel where they're all, where a lot of them were staying. Yeah. But we, we haven't, we haven't had, We actually, we didn't ask, but the residents have asked for the breakdown of how many local people actually are employed by Danka and they will refuse that information.

[00:36:50] Wow. Because Danka used the, you know, oh, well good for the local economy as one of their sort of arguments to justify their existence there. But, so the only [00:37:00] info I've got on that Tyler is, is again, anecdotal and it's like the security guards or logo and that's it.

[00:37:06] Tyler: Do you, do you sus, I'm sorry, I was just gonna ask, do you suspect that, um, the workers in the factory also might be experiencing similar cancer rates and other ailments as well?

[00:37:18] Lewis: Um, I think they will have like some sort of p p e, but I'll be surprised if there weren't, because in the plant there are signs saying beware cancer risk, like in the open air . You know, so that's, that's what really one of the things about this, you know, they've got signs up saying, beware cancer risk. And then they are seeing, like I've see, I've got photographs of them, I know they're there and, um, but then when it comes to someone making a complaint about a cancer risk, they say there's no cancer risk.

[00:37:53] Chris: I mean this, this is the thing Tyler is, yeah. When you go into those communities, then you sit down on the sofa with [00:38:00] someone and they reel off members of their families that have died, you know, wow. Prematurely, you know, nieces, nephews, you know, uncles, grandparents, um, young kids that have got respiratory illnesses, you know, and they've.

[00:38:16] basically being powerless to stop this, you know, and you sit there and you hear these stories and you know, they've told these stories before to countless news organizations and for us we were like, we want to take their stories away and make a difference. And the, the difference that we can make is that a lot of the news stories go out there and they talk about Cancer Alley and they talk about pollution.

[00:38:40] And everybody goes, that's a terrible thing. But we can link it to a specific product that people are buying. Yes. And not just people, surfers, you know, we revel in the fact that we are environmentally aware, you know, we are lucky enough to go out in a clean ocean every day. We think that we're buying [00:39:00] environmentally sound products.

[00:39:01] You know, we think we're being environmentally responsible and surfers should be the first people to stand up and make a difference, you know, in, in the use of Chloroprene rubber. And we haven't been. You know, there, there is a danger. I mean, one of the people in our film, Chris Hines, who was one of the founders of Surfers Against Sewage in the uk, and he is a veteran environmental campaigner, and he says there is a danger that surfers and the surfing industry will be the last industry to move away from neoprene, from Chloro.

[00:39:36] Because other industries are beginning to do that. Yeah. They're beginning to look at where their, where, what their supply chains are, where things are coming from, and they're going, we've got a product that's linked to cancer alley. Well, why are we using that? You know, that's not good for our image, that's not good for our environmental credentials.

[00:39:53] So how come surfers are so late and the surf industry's so late to come to the party? [00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Tyler: It's, it's, um, he, I believe he said, he called it the triple bottom line. That's like, it's not just the bottom line of the money, but there's all these other impacts that go along with it. And it's, it's a shame. But I mean, look at our surfboards, right?

[00:40:17] Our surfboards for how long, you know, are made of petrochemicals and we're super still resistant to getting away from that in many regards. Um, I, I'm, I'm scared to even look at how Wax is made, you know, surf wax, you know, even. It's, um, you know, we've, we've built, you know, the surf industry, I feel has built this, uh, incredible marketing, uh, machine, and it's sold this lifestyle and it's sold this image, uh, without any real basis, to be honest.

[00:40:51] You know, it's like, I mean, but for real, we used to be environmental, at least . The, the way I

[00:40:58] Chris: feel is that, yeah, [00:41:00] if you try and sell a product on carbon emissions or something like that, A lot of people would just kick that into the long grass and they'll go, yeah. Oh, climate change. It's not something I'm really that fussed about.

[00:41:12] You know? Whereas we're talking about a product here that, that people are dying. Yeah. You know, and the surf industry is putting money into the pocket of Danker. Wow. That, how is that Right? You know, it's, it's not, I don't know how you can be a surf brand and say that you are ethical and environmental on the one hand, and on the other hand be using a product that comes from a company like Danker.

[00:41:42] And the thing is, however Denka tries to spin this, the EPA came out with a recommendation for the level of chloroprene emissions from that plant of 0.2 micrograms per cubic meter. Yeah. Ander fought that for the past, you know, since the the 2015 report [00:42:00] came out. They're fighting it on all levels in the courts, they're fighting it in Congress, they're using, they're spending a lot of money, you know, to pay for, um, lobbying, whereas they could have been putting that money to cleaning up their emissions.

[00:42:14] Yeah. and the surf brands are putting money in this company's pockets.

[00:42:21] Tyler: It's, I gotta ask, like I've, I feel, and, and we, we've kind of touched on this, but it's, the race part is really, I think, massive. And part of the reason maybe that the surf industry, um, hasn't paid too much attention to it, I would, I would dare say is because surfing, uh, in the past, you know, has been mostly white and affluent people.

[00:42:50] And if you show, uh, you know, if you were to sh and you show people of of color, For a lot of these people, it, it doesn't, they can't identify with it [00:43:00] for some reason. And, and I think, um, when you, you know, if you were, if this were happening, and, and it's actually, it's really interesting we're having this conversation right now because there was, I don't know if you're aware about the massive train wreck in Ohio that has happened in Palestine and it's, uh, you know, horrible.

[00:43:23] It's horrendous and it's all like these hazardous petrochemicals and whatnot that have landed in a white town, you know, and it's getting all this pre and all this press, yet that shit is happening every day in St. John's, you know, the equivalent of, of that type of train wreck. It's happening on a daily basis and government is not doing anything about it.

[00:43:49] Yeah.

[00:43:50] Chris: And it, and I,

[00:43:52] Tyler: yeah, go on.

[00:43:53] Chris: I was gonna say, if, if you imagine someone set up the same plant outside Santa Barbara [00:44:00] Yeah. And started pumping out that those chemicals, that that thing would be shut down straight away. Yeah. And that's something, you know, the people that we spoke to who lived by the Danka plant, they said when this report came out, the plant should have been shut down.

[00:44:14] Yeah. Let alone, you know, making not even a legally binding level that a recommendation, you know, . And so what does that

[00:44:25] Tyler: even mean? What does that even mean? Like, you know

[00:44:29] Chris: Yes. It's, it's a recommended level of emissions. , it's not legally binding. So the, basically the plant emit has been emitting what it wanted to emit for many years.

[00:44:43] Yeah. You know now under the new administration, and I know this is one of the weird things with your system, is how politicized the environmental laws are. And you know, each state has their own politically controlled mechanisms. And so [00:45:00] that's one of the things that people have struggled with is, you know, state laws and national laws.

[00:45:06] And, and I think they've been let down on so many levels by, you know, so many people in within the system.

[00:45:16] Tyler: And I know that I'm gonna ask this, I know it sounds ridiculous, but I'm gonna ask you cuz I'm sure there are people, some listeners who are probably thinking this, well, well, why don't these people move?

[00:45:28] That's like the, the, the dumbest question. But I, I just have to ask it still because it's. . I feel like some people still need that explained and spelled out. You know,

[00:45:41] Lewis: Well, yeah. I asked, I asked one of the residents, one of the main campaigners there, why he didn't move. And, uh, there's, you know, he asked this guy who's in the film, Robert Taylor, he actually built his own house.

[00:45:55] Wow. You know, pursuing what he, he put at the American Dream. [00:46:00] Mm-hmm. . And, uh, he didn't, he, he never wanted to move. He's had to move his wife away cuz she was, she was so ill, luckily they've got relatives actually in California, so she's there, but all the rest of his family's still there. And he said he, he couldn't move it.

[00:46:16] He couldn't move, like in practical terms, he couldn't move because his house is like worthless pretty much. Um, but also like for sort of moral and ethical reasons, like how could he sell his house? To someone knowing the problem, right. That they're gonna be in, you know, so it's just passing the buck onto somebody else if he does that.

[00:46:41] So, you know, there's sort of two co two reasons why they can't just move away. Um, it's like financially impossible, um, from a lot of people. It's less just like, uh, it's you morally, you just can't do that.

[00:46:57] Tyler: It's, it's, it's awful.

[00:46:59] Lewis: [00:47:00] Yeah. I mean it's, it's, as you said, it, it is a depressing story. Tyler and, you know, when I first started really getting into this, yeah.

[00:47:13] My mindset was to do it to sort of defend surfing. You know, Danka, if you look on their website Yeah. They boast about enriching people's lives by facilitating wetsuits. . Um, and that was what I, I perceived that to be where Danko were kind of greenwashing themselves through surfing. Mm-hmm. . But when you get into it, like surfing is being complicit in there, in this No, that it's, it's not, you know, for years they've been happy to just blindly use this [00:48:00] substance and make a lot of money off it without, you know, considering any of the impact.

[00:48:07] And like, no one's fessed up to it. No. Um, so like, as Chris was talking about before, you know, it's like surfing is getting left behind on this.

[00:48:22] Tyler: It's, um, It's interesting, like, uh, before we got on, actually, I was scrolling on Instagram and, uh, Yamamoto, uh, rubber wetsuits came through my feed and there was this whole, uh, campaign of video of like, you know, promoting blue, your blue ocean, your blue water, you know, and it just to me felt so ugh.

[00:48:49] Like it felt dirty to me watching that. I was like, oh my God, these people are totally greenwashing and trying to use this image of crystal clear blue water and people [00:49:00] interacting with nature. And yet the product they make is, it comes from a really toxic chemical that is killing people. And you know, those pe the people at Yamamoto have to be aware of the impact.

[00:49:14] You know, the people who are at all the wetsuit companies have to be aware of these impacts. Like, I don't understand how they, they couldn't. Yeah, well

[00:49:24] Lewis: with, with Yama mo's limestone, I believe. Yeah. So, you know, you can say, well that's made in Japan. And in Japan there won't be this like minority community living next door to the plant in Japan.

[00:49:38] Cause they don't have that sort of demographic over there. Yeah. But as Chris has said, you know, it's the same company. Do. Like, if, if you, you are given your money to Danka, if you have limestone near Preme.

[00:49:54] Tyler: Do you, did you find that there's any, any cancer [00:50:00] related illnesses in Japan, uh, near those factories at all?

[00:50:04] Um, are like, what sort of issues are there? Uh, I'm kinda curious actually if there, if there is, if you found anything that's going on with those factories, you know, and whether Japan regulates it stronger or less. Um, , you know, uh, and I'm curious, like part of your issue, I imagine with making this film is Japan was not accepting people really coming in for a while during Covid, um, to go there.

[00:50:32] But I, I was curious like what you found with, with those factories.

[00:50:36] Lewis: Yeah. I don't, I honestly, I, I can't, I don't know that, um, as far as my research has told me that it's not, emissions aren't regulated in Japan. Right. So I, I don't know if the figures are actually there.

[00:50:56] Tyler: Wow.

[00:50:57] Chris: According, that's crazy. According to the Guardian and [00:51:00] the expose, um, the classification of Chloroprene in Japan is not as a toxin, therefore, they don't need to monitor and regulate it.

[00:51:15] Wow. And I. You know, you could surmise that that's because Denka is a very important company and has a lot of political muscle, you know, being a Japanese company. Wow. So it's something that's crazy. It's something that we haven't drilled into on the film because our film is specifically focused on the population Cancer alley in Cancer Alley.

[00:51:40] Um, but I think it, it does raise a lot of questions about Denka as a company in, in its entirety, you know, in relation to Chloroquine production.

[00:51:53] Tyler: Does, um, let me ask you this, uh, I, I, I was thinking about this. Um, [00:52:00] do you think that, um, The hesitancy for a lot of surf brands, maybe to get away from this or, or, you know, to, to try lacs or to go use other material.

[00:52:16] The other material is partly because a lot of the surf brands now are owned by private equities and that they just don't give a fuck about surfing or the environment and, and how much that, that plays into it. I'm not, yeah,

[00:52:31] Lewis: I think that is a massive part of it. Tyler, I'm not, I I, I think you've got companies who are, you know, beholden to shareholders and, and that's the priority.

[00:52:43] I think there's a lot of people working for these brands who would like to change, but, but they are not allowed to because it might impact on. or growth. So yeah, I think you've got people who own some of these brands who, you know, they don't really care that it's [00:53:00] safe and they just want to see a nice dividend at the end of the financial year, and that's their main priority.

[00:53:07] Tyler: Chris, what were you gonna say?

[00:53:08] Chris: I was gonna say, I'm sure there are some of, some of the big brands that own some of the surf brands, I think personally some of those brands would be quite shocked to know that they utilizing a substance. But it's such a big chain and I think ultimately the responsibility falls onto the people who are in charge of the supply chains, in the surf brands.

[00:53:35] Mm-hmm. . And we all know, I mean, the, the surf industry for years has been a, like a giant boys club. Mm-hmm. and everybody in the brands knows one another and they go to trade shows and go for drinks, go surfing together, you know, people have known about this, and there's either been a reluctance of people who knew to say to other [00:54:00] people, have you heard about this?

[00:54:01] Maybe we should be making a change. Or, those conversations have happened and, and people have said, look, we can't do this because of the bottom line. I mean, we haven't been privy to those conversations, but we do know that people have known, you know, and I think it's a failure of the surf industry as a whole, that there isn't a, um, there isn't the ability within that collective to have these conversations, you know, for there to be an honesty and an openness.

[00:54:33] And I think that's led to this. It's pretty much a stagnation. I mean, we're all using equipment that is basically from the, the post-war era. You know, our surfboards, our wetsuits, you know, these are ancient. Tech, you know, technologies that we're still using, you know, and the thing for me about this film is it's, it's a depressing film.

[00:54:58] You know, it's not an easy [00:55:00] watch, but it's not like watching a film where it's about, you know, water pollution in Flint or something like that, where at the end you go, oh my God, that's so terrible. But what can we do? The thing with this film is there is an answer at the end of it. Mm-hmm. , and the answer is natural rubber, which people have been using for hundreds of years.

[00:55:20] Yeah. You know, neoprine was invented to simulate natural rubber. And natural rubber wetsuits now are a, a completely viable alternative. You know, in fact, one of the people in the films, one of the, the people high up in one of the biggest surf brands says, our athletes are wearing natural rubber wetsuits.

[00:55:40] And they say they are as good as if not better than near Preme wetsuits. ,

[00:55:46] Tyler: are there any drawbacks with using natural rubber? Are there anything, is there anything that we should be aware of with that as well? Like, I always feel like we trade one evil [00:56:00] for another. Sometimes , so I'm always like kind of like, all right, well this all sounds really good.

[00:56:06] Um, what's the catch ?

[00:56:10] Chris: I, I think the amazing thing is if you drill down into this, yeah. Natural rubber should be cheaper than chloroprene rubber. Our wetsuits, if you, if, if we made a wholesale switch as an industry, our wetsuits would be cheaper and they would be better, and they would be made from a material that draws carbon out of the atmosphere rather than emitting, you know, millions of cubic, tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

[00:56:40] I mean, it's, it's the, the, the equation is just, So incredibly unbalanced, you know? Yeah. It's like you look, try and find like the downsides. And there are, there are very few, in my opinion,

[00:56:56] Tyler: it, it feels like the surf industry [00:57:00] particularly has also just like, it's a, it's, it's not like, it's not like this, uh, they, they test these wetsuits scientifically either, right?

[00:57:11] Like, they don't think, oh, this is x amount, percentage warmer or better. It's, it's all like, it's all marketing fluff. Uh, last year I had on the show, uh, friend of mine, Sean Newcomer, who studies, you know, actually has, was hired by Hurley to study wetsuits. And study the warmth of them and to ma figure out how to make wetsuits warmer.

[00:57:37] And it's amazing. He's like, none of these companies test, you know, in a scientific way. They're wetsuits. They may like go out surf and feel like, oh, it's str stretcher. Listen that. But they're not like doing any real scientific testing, no data. So there's no real reason to say that, oh, UX is inferior or [00:58:00] less stretchy than, you know, regular, you know, uh, neo cream.

[00:58:04] You know, it, it, it's quite funny and it's also like quite funny. Like we make wetsuits ass backwards in terms of warmth. If you want to be warm, like put all the thickness in the part of the wetsuit where you're underwater, that's where all the cold is. You know, it's like crazy. We put all the thickness in the chest area, you know, in areas that you don't need it to be.

[00:58:27] And it's just so, so poorly made. Actually, it's really funny, like how. Wetsuits are, are definitely more flexible from when I was a kid. But it's like, yeah, I don't know. There's just, they, the way they market it, it makes it seem like it's way more scientific and it's not.

[00:58:43] Chris: Mm-hmm. . And it's funny, like some people say, oh, well I got a UX wetsuit and it wasn't a stretchy, um, it was a bit less stretchy.

[00:58:51] It was like a wetsuit I had a couple of years ago, but two years ago, we weren't all walking around going, oh my God, this wetsuit's junk. I can't move yet. , [00:59:00] you know, , it's like, even if that's the worst that you can throw at it, you know, I mean, Louis and I both wear Lux wetsuits and we go in like the Cold Sea around here.

[00:59:11] Louis goes off the north of Scotland. You know, we've, we've all traveled to cold places. You know, you, for you guys in New York, a good wetsuit is like super important. But I bet a lot of the people that, you know, wear Patagonia wetsuits and they're perfectly warm, you know, and yeah, perform a high standard and.

[00:59:30] Tyler: You know that, that layback I did, man. If, like, if I just had the neo preme, I would've pulled it off a little bit more easily. That's like the whole thing. . I, I find it interesting, like, I don't know if you noticed it, but it also feels like there's a lot more TSU companies than ever before. Is that, is that something that you've found, like you have, uh, direct to customer, you know, wetsuit, brands now that are out there?

[00:59:58] You have all these things, [01:00:00] like from all these different companies, you know, it is just like all these smaller brands and I'm curious like how they're able to do this. It's wild. Like, it's kind of wild, like how it's popped up so, so rapidly. All these different wetsuit companies over the last five, six years, I,

[01:00:17] Chris: I kind of feel like the small wetsuit companies as well are more open to change.

[01:00:22] And more willing to, would be more willing to embrace things like UX or, or whatever other alternative came along. Um, yeah, but it's the, it's the big brands that really have the power to make the difference. Cause if the big brands all said, look, this, this has to change. We need to move away from this. If they all made that decision and made the move, the industry would change overnight.

[01:00:46] I mean, the supply is there if it's needed, that they just have to make that decision.

[01:00:53] Tyler: So, so the question then is, what do we do? How do we push back? How do we, [01:01:00] how do what? You know what, I, obviously we can vote with our wallets and we can buy Patagonia, but. , as far as I know, there's only two brands that, that are doing full ux and that's, um, Patagonia and fte.

[01:01:15] And I think Billabong had some natural rubber in some of their wetsuits. Mm-hmm. . Um, but that's it. Hmm. Like I went on Billabong's website to try to find a natural rubber wetsuit and it was very limited in, in what you could choose at the moment. Like they didn't have any five mills or anything thicker.

[01:01:36] So, so the question is like, how do we, how do we get, I mean, how do we enforce that change?

[01:01:43] Chris: I mean, there are other brands out there that are using Lux. I mean from people like Oxbow in France. You've got need essentials, you've got surface.

[01:01:53] Tyler: You've got is need essentials using ux? I

[01:01:56] Chris: was not aware. I think they have a, a, a range?

[01:01:59] Yes. [01:02:00] Oh, amazing. And I think, um, and also you have, um, you know, Amanda Chin with her C range. Mm-hmm. is using ux. Um, and there are brands out there. And if you support those brands, then, you know, even just even a few emails and a few letters to brands, make them open their eyes and notice, like we did our screening in London and, um, people said to us afterwards, I bought these wetsuits and they were limestone near pre, and I've sent them back and I've told them why I sent them back.

[01:02:36] And I, and I'm now gonna buy Wow. A UX suit. And you only need a few people to start doing that. And the brands will take notice. You know, I,

[01:02:45] Tyler: I think we should, we should do a campaign of that. Send it back, you know? Mm-hmm. , like, I think as you do screenings, we should, um, try to find someone that, uh, that would, uh, be willing to [01:03:00] help pay for shipping wetsuits back to manufacturers.

[01:03:03] Even. Uh, I'm kind of curious what the response would be to that. Well, it's

[01:03:07] Chris: interesting that you say that because there are new laws coming in. So for example, in France, there's a new law coming in. That means that people who sell products have to take that product back at the end of its lifestyle. That's amazing.

[01:03:20] Lifeline. So wetsuits will be going back to manufacturers, so, wow. How are they gonna deal with the nerine that starts coming back to them, you know? Wow.

[01:03:30] Tyler: Wow. Yoga.

[01:03:37] You know it, but where beer, cozies beer, cozies yoga mats,

[01:03:45] that's the recycling part, I

[01:03:47] Chris: guess. Yeah. Whereas I, you know, natural rubber is, is much more easy to deal with. You know, it's, it's a,

[01:03:54] Tyler: can, can wetsuits be recycled? Is that also an option? Is [01:04:00] that something where they can be kind of either ground back down or put, put back into, you know, not just repurposed but recycled?

[01:04:10] Do we know

[01:04:11] Lewis: the, the wetsuits can be recycled? Um, to my knowledge, not into another wetsuit as yet, but people are looking into that. Um, I think there's like the, I've, I know companies make like souls for shoes and things like that out of wetsuits. Um, but, and I've heard there's. Work to, um, you know, to create this sort of black pigment to replace carbon black, which is another ingredient in the wetsuit.

[01:04:42] Like a chlorine chip is like sort of beige color. Mm-hmm. . And then it's mixed with carbon black to turn it black. And there's this work underway to try

[01:04:54] Tyler: and, um,

[01:04:57] Lewis: you know, try and replace carbon black with [01:05:00] recycled neoprine. But the concern if that is, if that sort of legitimizes the production of neoprine.

[01:05:07] Okay.

[01:05:08] Tyler: Yeah, it's true. It's true. No, it's just, it's um, I feel like we need to go to like the waterman's ball or something, you know, where they, where all the surf industry goes and protest outside or something. Um, what has the industry response been to the film so far? How, how have you, have you received any death threats yet?

[01:05:33] Um, not yet. Like actually ,

[01:05:39] Lewis: we're, we're in the process. We're in the process of like right to replies. Yeah. And, um, that's been delegated largely to Chris, so he should probably answer that question.

[01:05:51] Tyler: How's that been going?

[01:05:53] Chris: It's quite an interesting process. it there, there's been brands that just have not [01:06:00] engaged with it whatsoever.

[01:06:01] Yeah. And then there've been brands that have opened up a dialogue. , it's, it's trying to actually get them to look at the basics. Mm-hmm. , because they'll, they'll tell you a lot about their, you know, recycled stitching or how the jersey material is made from old fishing nets or something like that. It's confronting the issue that the majority of your wetsuit is made from a substance that comes from a company that has a plant in cancer alley.

[01:06:36] Um, it's, it's just basically them putting their hands up and going, you know what? You are right. It's just not, it's, it's wrong and we shouldn't be doing it, and we're gonna move forward from that point,

[01:06:49] Tyler: do you, do you think reaching out to some professional surfers might help and do you think they would, how?

[01:06:56] I'm curious how some of them might respond. [01:07:00]

[01:07:00] Chris: I think that's definitely something that we're gonna do. . We haven't done it yet because, well, first of all the, we haven't finished the final edit of the film. Yeah. So it's still a work in progress and we're still filming at the moment. Okay. And also, we understand that athletes are tied in to brands, but at the same time, athletes have very powerful voices.

[01:07:29] You know, and if those athletes at the top of the, you know, sport Yeah. As it were, cuz that's the performance side of surfing came out and said, you know, we should be wearing natural rubber or then that would, that would make a difference because I think there are a lot of surfers out there with high profiles who would readily jump on.

[01:07:54] Tyler: Uh, Kelly Slater. I mean, he's gone so far without or known like, I [01:08:00] mean making, you know, like trying to research. Yeah. All the way down drill, all the way down to the materials on the t-shirts and clothing he makes. I'm curious like if he would, uh, pick something up like this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, just take

[01:08:14] Chris: those performance surfers to make a stand against it, but also to wear natural rubber to show people you can be a performance surfer and wear natural rubber because I still think there is a little bit of hesitancy among people cuz they think it's either expensive or it's not as good.

[01:08:32] And I think if the, the cost will come because when more people switch, it will be cheaper. And so, I mean, already you can buy, um, UX sweatsuits that are the same price as the comparable in the supreme wet suit. Yeah. But performance wise, you know, if you see the, the, the surfers at the top of their game busting airs and, you know, getting huge barrels and then, then, then that just eliminates that argument [01:09:00] completely.

[01:09:01] Tyler: Absolutely. Well, it's, to me, it, it, it doesn't seem like, uh, too big of an ask for some of them to do that. And I'm kind of, kind of curious cause I know like Billabong is really trying to push the, the natural, uh, rubber a bit more and I'm like, I would like to see more of that kind of discussion Ed be had.

[01:09:23] And I think that would be really, you know, more promoted amongst their surfers. I think, you know, it's, it's definitely, I think the surf industry is definitely in danger of getting left behind though. You know, we, we, we already are in so many ways. I mean, even like when it comes to the fashion side of things in clothing, for the most part, we're.

[01:09:45] You know, it's like, even like h and m is, is making changes to how they do things, right? Mm-hmm. , like if h and m can start to fix their broken cycle, you know, some of the, the main surf industry breads could do that, but [01:10:00] they, they're not, you know, and I think, um, I'm curious like what, what, how much of that has to do with the private equity, how much that has to do with just the industry not being as strong as it once was, and maybe they just don't have the funds to make that change as easily.

[01:10:15] I don't know. Yeah.

[01:10:16] Lewis: I think also Tyler, it's like, it's kind of admitting that there was something wrong with what you were doing in the past. , you know, not probably a hard admission to make, isn't it? You know, like, like if you've got like a line of natural rubber wetsuits and then you've got like five lines of petrochemical wetsuits, you know, like how can you sort of justify the two?

[01:10:41] How can you reconcile that, you know, like, Like, why would, if, if there's nothing wrong with petrochemical, why would you have natural rubber? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . So it's a hard one to sort of, it's like an image problem. And I think also because [01:11:00] the, a lot of brands, well, other than Patagonia, no one else invested in ux.

[01:11:05] Mm-hmm. . So it's kind of admitting that a climbing company has come up with a good idea for a wetsuit, , it's probably not great for, like, it's not easy for an established surf brand to say that publicly, which is what in effect you'd be doing if you just suddenly went, we're all natural rubber.

[01:11:24] Tyler: So, so now the question is then where, where are you taking this film next?

[01:11:29] What's the, what's the distribution plan and how do you plan on getting the word out to really make people aware of this? So we're, besides your film festival London, in London, we're, we're

[01:11:44] Chris: currently, we're go, we're just about to go into post-production with it. Mm-hmm. , we're running a Kickstarter campaign and it's not for a huge amount of money, it's as much to get stakeholders in the film and get some publicity around the film, get people to buy [01:12:00] into it.

[01:12:00] But we're running a kick Kickstarter campaign for, it's like 11,000 pounds and people can find out about that by going to our website, which is the big c.org. And there'll

[01:12:13] Tyler: be a link That's s e a s, not the letter. Yes. .

[01:12:18] Chris: No, you'll notice the, the link. Um, and um, yeah, we'd really like people to support, even if they just put in like $10 or whatever.

[01:12:29] It's about building the community, getting people involved. Building some momentum around the film so that by the time we have the film ready for release in June and we start doing film festivals, then people are already aware and they can go and watch the film and then they can tell their friends to go and watch the film.

[01:12:46] And then we'll be rolling out screenings across the globe at film festivals, kind of starting from the, from June onwards.

[01:12:55] Tyler: Incredible. Um, well guys, I [01:13:00] really appreciate you, uh, staying up late to do this. And, um, the film is, is incredible. Like it really gives perspective on, on what we do and what we're doing by buying this.

[01:13:15] And it does seem like a very actionable thing that we can, we can take. Um, like I said, I'm, I'm already in the process of buying a natural rubber wetsuit and gonna be making that switch and, um, you know, I, I'm really. Really appreciate you chasing this story and going after and doing the hard, uh, work.

[01:13:41] Because I imagine also it must be difficult, you know, having to interview all these people in Cancer Alley and I imagine some of those people you interviewed may not be there now even, or might be struggling right now as well. And that's gotta be a really difficult thing to kind of deal with. Yeah.

[01:13:59] Chris: It's more, [01:14:00] it's more wanting to do their story justice really.

[01:14:02] Yeah. Is wanting to go away and actually make a difference. And, and, and it's, it's like carrying that mantle for surfers, you know, cuz so many people have gone and done those interviews and then gone away and nothing's changed. Yeah. And we, you know, for us it's like surfers can make a difference, you know, we can make a difference.

[01:14:25] A real difference in their lives.

[01:14:26] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think what you're doing with the film is, is by humanizing these people, and I think there's, um, a lot of ways we can go about doing that. And, and, uh, hopefully this podcast helps, you know, and, and, you know, and I, I, again, like, it doesn't, you know, us talking doesn't really make up for the people that you've actually talked to, but they're definitely in the film and, and understanding what we're buying is killing people.

[01:14:55] Um, really makes you think, uh, about it. [01:15:00] And I, I really appreciate it. So, um, listeners who can go to the big c.com org and.org, sorry, sorry, the big C s e a.org and also your social media, where can they go f follow the film?

[01:15:19] Chris: Yeah, we're on Instagram as well. Um, the big c org. , um, yeah, followers on Instagram and, um, we'll keep everybody updated about the film moving forward and where we're gonna be screening starting in the summer.

[01:15:34] Tyler: Great. Well guys, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it and, uh, appreciate the time and answering all these questions and, uh, I'll definitely, uh, be following up with you on this as well. So thank

[01:15:49] Lewis: you. Yeah. Thank you Tyler.

[01:15:51] Chris: Thanks Tyler. We really appreciate the.

[01:15:54] Tyler: My pleasure. And, uh, listeners, go check them out.

[01:15:57] And of course, um, don't forget to check [01:16:00] us out at Swell Season Surf Radio on Instagram or www.swellseasonsurfradio.com. And, uh, yeah, go keep an eye out for this film. It's gonna be really, uh, eyeopening. And, uh, if you can, and you're in the market for buying a new wetsuit, I do recommend checking out natural rubber.

[01:16:22]Um, you know, there are like they listed before, all the different places you can purchase it, take a look and yeah, and try to make a difference and an impact. All right? And, uh, we will check you all down the line soon.

For more information you can follow @thebiogseaorg on Instagram or go to www.thebigsea.org

The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by The NewsStand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by The Swell Season Surf Radio Network.
www.swellseasonsurfradio.com

Music:
Song: Riding The Wind
Artist:The Val Dusty Experiment
Album: Litmus