Yama with Lucy Small and Maddie Meddings

[00:00:00] Tyler: Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf podcast. I'm your co-host Tyler Brewer,

[00:00:10] Karen: and I'm your co-host Karen Song.

[00:00:13] Tyler: Karen, how goes it? I have missed you so much. You are on the West coast and you, I'm missing, are missing some? I'm too, you're missing some great wave. I know.

[00:00:25] Karen: I can't, I can't look at the Instagram.

[00:00:26] It's too much . I'm, I'm in the other extreme here in la It's crazy because it's just been nonstop rain and I still feel like you kind of have to kind of pay heat to the, you. It's, it's nuts to be in a place that is so much surf and then there's so much water pollution and that people really don't surf when it rains, or I don't know if they do or not.

[00:00:49] But anyway, I've been really busy, so the irony of being here and surfing less than I do, um, when I'm in New York is. It makes me a little crazy. [00:01:00]

[00:01:01] Tyler: it, you know, it's funny. It's like, yeah, we, we don't, we don't think about that as much here in New York when, when it rains, like, I mean our water's always been polluted so we just kind of suck it up, I guess , you know, I don't know.

[00:01:13] Karen: It does feel cleaner there. It does. It's not like, you know, all the streets are flowing with all, I mean, it's been nonstop rain here. I've never seen anything like it, and I don't think it's normal for here either, but it all flows into the ocean. I mean, looking at that, I don't know what you call that thing, you know, in Terminator, that big Yeah.

[00:01:31] Thing where all the water flows into does

[00:01:33] Tyler: not look pretty

[00:01:36] Karen: flowing right to Manhattan Beach.

[00:01:39] Tyler: Yeah. We, we've been lucky we don't have that. And , yeah, it's, I mean, we've had waves. It's been, it's been pretty good. So you've been missed And now that I live out here and Rockaway, you could have gotten changed.

[00:01:52] When, when are you coming back? When are you coming back? That's soon,

[00:01:55] Karen: actually. I'll be back soon. Yeah. I got some, some things I need to get done there, so I'll be back soon. [00:02:00] But I was in Australia a good segue here. Um, also I was busy working, so I didn't get to do much, but, uh, I got some good days in. It was really fun.

[00:02:09] Tyler: Really fun. Where were you? What part? Um,

[00:02:12] Karen: oh gosh, I was in Sydney, but where I really had, uh, I, I got a swell in, um, uh, I went up to the Gold Coast in Byron Bay and I got some of, uh, tropical, uh, cyclone Gabriel.

[00:02:25] Tyler: Uh, were you guys out for that ? So, well, while we, while we are here, let's first introduce our guests before we start talking to them.

[00:02:36] about Gabrielle. Um, so we have some pretty awesome guests that I'm really excited about. Uh, here we go. So our guest for this week is Lucy Small and Maddie Meddings. Lucy Small. She is a surfer and an equal rights activist who made waves in the sports industry in 2021 for calling out the [00:03:00] organizers of the Sydney Surf Contest when they provided her with less than half the prize money compared to the men's competition prize money.

[00:03:09] Since this pivotal moment though, Lucy has been campaigning for equal pay and standing up for women athletes everywhere demanding change, Mattie Meddings is a surf. Travel and lifestyle photographer and filmmaker. She's based in North Cornwall, which is one of my favorite places to go. Surfing her work embodies the coastal experience.

[00:03:33] She has an incredible body of work and experience in both shooting stills and filmmaking. She is accustomed to all aspects of visual storytelling and these two, this dynamic du. They have a new film coming out. It's named Yama, and the film follows Lucy as she travels to Ghana to meet with a group of pioneering female surfers and skaters.

[00:03:59] This [00:04:00] place was once a stronghold of the transatlantic slave trade and with the history of Atlantic aquatic surf culture that precedes colonial invasion. This is a story of a reclamation and joy and I am super excited to have on Lucy and Maddie. Welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast, guys. Thank you.

[00:04:25] Lucy: Hi. Thanks for having us .

[00:04:28] Tyler: Uh, it's, it's awesome to have you guys two incredible, uh, incredible, uh, people who I'm, I'm really excited this film, uh, for our listeners, Karen and I got a little screener, a little taste, and it's beautiful. It's really well done. And I, I think we, we kind of touched on this a little bit before we started recording, but it's, it shows Africa in such a different light than so many surf films that [00:05:00] we've seen in the past.

[00:05:02] And I, I really enjoyed this cuz it, it really came from a more shown, it more positive in how often we've seen things where it's just kind of. A bit of a white savior complex with a lot of filmmakers and coming in and we need to get them surfboards and we need to help. And oh, they didn't know what surfing was and it's always kind of been portrayed all the way going back to the endless summer, I mean, it's really kind of astounding the history of Africa and surfing and in surf culture, it's always kind of, I, I, I'm just trying to think of the word for this, but it's just kind of, I don't wanna say paternalistic, but like, like it's, it just looking down colonialist a lot.

[00:05:47] Colonialist. Yes. Yes. That's the word. . Um, I guess first I want to, I wanna know how you two connected, um, to make this project, cuz you [00:06:00] both are kind of on the opposite ends of the planet here. Um, how, how did you guys meet and how did this project come about?

[00:06:09] Maggie: Um, this slid into my dm . Yeah. My DM lady and I

[00:06:17] Tyler: probably sounds so scandalous. What you

[00:06:20] Maggie: I know.

[00:06:20] Lucy: And I felt, I literally just dmd Maddie and said, Hey, do you wanna go to Ghana with me and make her feel? And she wrote back saying, yeah, . And then I felt like I had to prove that it wasn't a scam for the fall until we were there.

[00:06:40] Maggie: what?

[00:06:41] Tyler: Shut the front door.

[00:06:46] It was like, did you have any knowledge of each, like did you know each other at all before or was it just kind of like, Lucy, you saw Maddie's work and you're like, Hey, I think you'd be really good for. [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Lucy: Um, I actually originally had organized a different filmmaker, um, an an Australian, somebody from Australia, and then she had to pull out like a couple of months before we were supposed to go.

[00:07:12] And so I did an Instagram call out. I have the, the best, um, Instagram followers because it's all people who just wanna help with whatever I'm doing .

[00:07:22] Maggie: And so I did a call out for

[00:07:25] Lucy: female, female

[00:07:26] Maggie: filmmakers. It's dangerous , you're like, I

[00:07:30] Karen: need,

[00:07:34] Tyler: I need a new car.

[00:07:37] Lucy: I feel like if I posted on my Instagram story that I need a new car, there would be someone out there who said, Hey, I've got a car. Come to me and get it.

[00:07:48] Yeah. So I just, I just shared that any female filmmakers out there wanna come on an adventure with me. And more than one person replied saying, you should [00:08:00] contact Maddy Meddings. And so, um, I had a look at her work and I, I thought she seems really

[00:08:06] Maggie: awesome. So, I'm just gonna dig in there and see if she's Kate

[00:08:11] I actually did, I did follow you before that. I remember Luke, um, my partner was like, um, oh yeah, just had just mentioned you in pa in passing. And then I was like, oh. And then I sort of followed you and was like, ah, she's cool. Um, so yeah, when you put that out, I was like, me , I wanna .

[00:08:33] Tyler: So, so did you get other people to, to represent you, to reach out to Lucy?

[00:08:38] Was it like roundabout way,

[00:08:40] Maggie: just to like a good word?

[00:08:45] Karen: Well, I'd love to bring this also back to kind of your moment of notoriety. Uh, Lucy, I think, you know, you are, you were a professional, I don't know if you still are, but you're, you did a lot of the longboarding, um, competitions. Um, you know, you're a professional surfer.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Um, but I think I originally met you. Literally like days after or like a week after that moment that kind of launched you into viral, viral world of the internet, um, where now you're on the news and, and things like that. Where, uh, and it's from what I, what I remember you, um, sharing with me was that you, they basically gave you your prize money and it was just kind of an offhanded remark of like, well, this is great, but it's, you know, it's, I can't remember exactly what you said, but it was half of what, what the, the male prize winner win winnings were.

[00:09:39] And um, and based on that moment, I don't know if it was like a gut kind of like, ugh, you know, a throwaway like, it, it was really what you thought, but like, you know, it just took a life of its own. And then the numbers of followers, it was just like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And um, you know, maybe you could [00:10:00] speak on that moment, because I just remember.

[00:10:03] Like, I don't know. It was really funny to see you at that moment because it felt like, you're like, oh my God, what is happening ? What is happening to my life right now? ,

[00:10:12] Tyler: what's your life goes by later.

[00:10:14] Karen: Yeah, exactly. And then now, years later, you are an activist. You are like, it's a very intentional kind of, um, line of action, you know?

[00:10:24] Lucy: Yeah. Like at the time, like the only objective in the moment of, of doing that call out was literally to go, maybe if we put these people on the spot, That next year when they have their event, they will have equal prize money. That was it. I, there was nothing, there was no kind of like, okay, this is an opportunity to make change or do anything.

[00:10:46] There was none of that in my mind at all in my mind actually at the time was Don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say it.

[00:10:56] Oh God, I've said it .

[00:10:59] Maggie: I really like [00:11:00] how you say at the end you go, let's think about that for next time. I just feel like it's, it's like a teacher. It's so diplomatic. You're like, think about it, .

[00:11:10] Lucy: Well, totally. I was like, yeah, I don't know. It was, it was just, I just had no kind of, um, conceptualization of anything other than that, that real moment and then, um, yeah.

[00:11:24] What followed I. It, it real, as you said, it just took a life of its own. Like, it just kind of became, I just, it just really resonated with a lot of people, I think. And I like all of the hundreds and hundreds of women who dmd, me and men, but mostly women who to say, like you said, what I've always wanted to say.

[00:11:46] Like, that was the sentiment. So, um, I feel like that was kind of it. It had this massive reach because I, I felt like there was so many people who, who had, have always wanted [00:12:00]to have a voice to, always wanted to, to do change. And then I had just said these words and kind of said, everyone was thinking basically.

[00:12:07] Right. Um, and it takes

[00:12:08] Karen: one person to step forward. Mm-hmm. .

[00:12:11] Lucy: Totally. And it was like a, a straw that broke, broke the camels back at the moment because it was like, you know, after years and years and years of just tolerating this bullshit. Like, I just, we we're just so, I'm just so over it. I was just so done with it.

[00:12:27] That was basically all it was. And, um, but yeah, since then it, like, that moment, like for me personally, it's changed a lot because it's given me a platform. It's given me a kind of like huge opportunities like to go to Ghana and make this film. That would never have happened without that because mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] suddenly I got this voice, um, around gender and sport and surfing and, um, I guess there's kind of brands out there that want to be part of that. And, [00:13:00] um, and such as Project Blank, who supported the Garner film. They, um, and yeah, like there's kind of in the last two years, Sort of just been doing more projects and, and working in, in activism and trying to actually create like legislative change to, um, you know, yes.

[00:13:19] Stop this from being an issue any longer. And, um, going from just kind of being a surfer to meeting with these government ministers and ,

[00:13:32] Karen: that

[00:13:32] Tyler: sounds exciting. Do, do you feel dirty after you meet with them? ? Well, like, oh, I just hung out with the politician.

[00:13:42] Lucy: Yeah. Well, walking into these, um, these meeting rooms, these offices with the, and, and sitting down with these people who have the power to make change and trying to get them to agree to do it, you have to be quite creative in the way you communicate.

[00:13:58] mm-hmm. , um, [00:14:00] to sort of make pitch to a crus, the old man who's never played sport and has no idea. About like has no, one of the biggest challenges is getting people to actually see that it's gender discrimination. Like, it's like, it's so culturally ingrained that people don't even realize that it's gender inequality and gender discrimination.

[00:14:22] It's like this is broad acceptance that sport is just unfair for women and that's just the way it is and we just need to accept it. And to go to be making these like a pitch to the government to go, actually doesn't have to be this way. We can do it differently. And you as a minister have the power to make the change.

[00:14:42] Um, so

[00:14:43] Karen: can you approach it in the way that they kind of approached it at Mavericks, you know, where they went to the California, um, legislation and they were like, this is state property, state lands, like the water itself. And so you can't have a competition that discriminates based [00:15:00] on gender because any state park or federal park can't discriminate based on.

[00:15:06] these things. So, you know, I think, I don't know if that, I, I know you guys are so good about your, your coastlines there of public access, you know, um, so I wonder if that's an avenue for you guys or if that's already been explored.

[00:15:21] Lucy: Yeah, so we, um, that is sort of like, we have kind of modeled our campaign, um, off the California one.

[00:15:28] It's actually called Equal Pay for Equal Play, which is what their law is. Um, but we've taken a slightly different approach and we are targeting funding. So, um, if you are a sports organization and you apply for a grant to the government that you have to show you have equal prize money and equal access.

[00:15:47] Um, so it is sort of a, it's a different approach that will likely have the same impact, um, basically on the basis of like it's taxpayer money, it's public money, it should be spent fairly. . [00:16:00] And to me it's just shocking that the government thinks it's okay to spend government money unfairly. Like my tax is not any lower.

[00:16:08] So , yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:11] Karen: It exists in so many fields. It exists in like medical testing, you know, like just the, the diversity of people, you know, it's still very much skewed towards men,

[00:16:21] Tyler: the white men actually. It's, it's shocking how we just as a, as a white straight cis male, we don't think about . You know, we haven't in the past thought about this and it's, it's fucked up.

[00:16:35] It's so f maddening, like when you're, I think when your eyes are open to it and you start to see it, you start to see it everywhere. I feel like also, so when you mention that, when you brought this up at the contest, I, I guarantee you so many people just. . It was like, oh, I see this here now, and I see this there.

[00:16:57] Yeah. And you, it really is a, a [00:17:00] perception change of, of all the structures that have been built around this too. Right? Like Karen and I have talked about, uh, in the past even, like how if women were given the same amount of access, same amount of encouragement as men in surfing, I would argue there wouldn't be a real performance gap between the genders at all, I think.

[00:17:24] Mm-hmm. , I think there's, seriously, if you're given all the same resources and same, you know, everything's devoted, I honestly think it's, it wouldn't cha you know, everyone, it would be much more equal amongst everyone. There wouldn't be a dis, you know, any sort of gap between that.

[00:17:41] Lucy: Yeah. I recently made up this metaphor, that I, I feel like it is, I mean, it's a good way it explains it for me, in my mind anyway.

[00:17:50] It's like putting. , um, men on thoroughbreds and women on Shetland ponies and putting them in into a race together. I'm wondering why the women don't go as fast , [00:18:00] but even then, like .

[00:18:03] Maggie: Yeah. Even

[00:18:04] Karen: some women actually do, even with that,

[00:18:06] Lucy: still smashing it, you know? Yeah. But it's, yeah, it's like a real, um, it's like, it's making it more difficult before you even leave the.

[00:18:15] and then, and then blaming the women for the lower performance level too. Um, I, yeah, and completely to the structures at play that determine and influence it. It's

[00:18:25] Tyler: mind blowing. It's

[00:18:26] Karen: psycho. It really is psycho .

[00:18:29] Tyler: I wanna ask you, because you work in the industry, and I'm curious like what your experience is from the industry side as well, because it's, you know, you're, you're may not be the professional surfer, but you are a photographer, filmmaker, and I imagine you have to come up with same kind of BS that , you know, that goes on.

[00:18:51] And, and I'm curious like your, from your perspective as well. I was

[00:18:56] Maggie: actually, yeah. So, um, I, [00:19:00] I was just thinking about that as you said it. And I'm trying to think of the ways in which it comes through. It's not really something that I, um, feel like. I experience as viscerally as you do like in the water and with sport.

[00:19:15] Cause you know, you literally have men and women competing separately, whereas with photography and filmmaking, nothing's laid out like that. It's a lot more subtle, but I think it just comes in like, um, it just is so male dominated and so, you know, it kind of, it, there's, you don't have many people to kind of relate to and I guess like communicate with about everything that you are experiencing.

[00:19:44] So I think that's probably the main way in which I find I, like it affects me. But then I actually have had a, I've had a really, had a really positive experience being a female filmmaker. Um, because it's, it's because of the time that we're in at the moment [00:20:00] where people are starting to, um, strive for equity and equality and.

[00:20:06] Like they're trying to get more women doing all the technical stuff as well. Cause like that's kind of the area in which, um, there, there aren't as many women doing it. And I feel like I've actually really benefited from that. Um, and yeah, so it's, it's kind of, I'm kind of conflicted by it. Like I know, I know that it's an issue that there aren't as many women doing it, but at the moment for me it's, it has been, it has been beneficial cause people are consciously trying to get me on board and um, hopefully cuz of my skill as well.

[00:20:37] Tyler: Well, it, I think, uh, it's also the perspective, the female perspective is a different than the male. And I think there's evidence of that. Just by your film here and what we were talking about to bring it full circle, um, how your, this film is highlighting these positive aspects of, [00:21:00] of surf culture in Africa.

[00:21:01] And it's not looking down upon, it's not this colonial, uh, you know, white savior kind of attitude. It's from a more kind of supportive and kind of, uh, you know, you're kind of like promoting the positives that is ha that are happening right there, right now. So I think you have a different perspective than maybe a male filmmaker might have coming into a situation like this, uh, because of, of that, that disparity potentially.

[00:21:32] Maggie: Yeah, hopefully. I think, yeah, that's actually, that's a really nice point that it comes from a place of support and I think that, um, I guess a lot of the work that I do, I often try and achieve that. So that's nice to, nice to feel like it's recognized. , . Um, yeah. Yeah. I, I think so. It's, it's just so hard to say, isn't it?

[00:21:55] Like what, how a, a male filmmaker would've, [00:22:00] would've taken it had he had the brief and had the project, but yeah, I imagine it, it

[00:22:05] Lucy: would've been different. How did

[00:22:06] Karen: you both access, um, your, uh, your protagonists and your communities that you featured, and do you wanna talk a little bit about them?

[00:22:17] Lucy: Um, there was DM slide again.

[00:22:20] Oh wow.

[00:22:21] Karen: The dms are

[00:22:23] Maggie: on dm, serious

[00:22:29] Lucy: Um, so basically it's when I had the idea for the project, which was February last year, um, I followed this account called Surf Garner. And I, so I just literally sent them a message and said, Hey, I'm like really interested to come and meet you guys and make a film. It seems like you're doing really cool stuff.

[00:22:50] And, um, they got back to, on the other end of the DM was Sandy a Libo, who was the amazing driving force behind, um, the Surf Garner project. [00:23:00] And, um, she said, yep, let's meet on Zoom. And so we basically wouldn't have been able to do it without her because she. Set us up with like, meeting the skaters, meeting justice.

[00:23:12] It gave us all those contacts and, um, and we, she was really instrumental in kind of, um, influencing the angle that we took with the film too, because over the months leading up to when we actually went, I met with her a number of times that she really, um, we really talked through these issues and like how the representation can work in terms of not just reinforcing those stereotypes and kind of talking about the idea of like the help that people need and I say help and, um, whatever.

[00:23:49] What are those called again? Quote

[00:23:50] Tyler: unquote . Air quotes,

[00:23:52] Lucy: finger quotes, air quotes. Um, being I remembered something[00:24:00]

[00:24:01] Maggie: um,

[00:24:02] Lucy: that. Being so different to what people living in the western world kind of are quick to think about when they think of like what kind of help African people need in African communities need that. It's not like gifts and giving things in charity. It's help with build, give, getting the tools to build like a, a structure and an industry and to tell your own stories and um, that kind of, that kind of help, which is not a charity thing, it's, it's what they're doing with Surf Garner to try and build that as Sandy calls it like an ecosystem.

[00:24:42] And so that was really basically how, like from the very start that Sandy kind of consulted us at all stages of actually developing, um, how we would approach it. And um, yeah, it was.

[00:24:58] Karen: She was awesome. One of the [00:25:00] things that I really loved about the film, um, were, were the historical archives of the water men and water women.

[00:25:06] That was so cool. And just the history of that. How did you access those archives?

[00:25:13] Maggie: Um, so we, uh, there's a guy called , um, Kevin Dawson. He actually wrote, um, the kinda intro essay that's in Afro mm-hmm. , and he wrote this book, um, which has just got like the whole history. I'll, I'll actually send you the, the

[00:25:33] Karen: title Under Occurrence of Power by Kevin Dawson.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:36] Maggie: Mm-hmm. , yeah. Aquatic Culture in their African diaspora. Mm.

[00:25:40] Lucy: Um,

[00:25:42] Maggie: and, and yeah, he, he, so he had, he'd just been building up this collection of imagery over time. He's done this whole um, wow study of like, You know, um, studying historic seafaring in Western Africa specifically, and yeah, over the years, just managed to collect [00:26:00]all these different, all these different photos.

[00:26:02] And he said he is, it's literally from his time over there just going to shops and libraries and things and, and scouting out and just doing, doing it, um, kind of all analog like that. So, yeah, so he was so kind and he really helped us inform, um, the things that we wanted to say in terms of like, the history of surfing and also some of the, like colonial history as well.

[00:26:24] Um, yeah, he's, he's a, he's great, isn't it? He's so, yeah. Mm-hmm. such an amazing guy.

[00:26:30] Tyler: It's so fascinating, um, with the Afro Surf book that's come out and. The acknowledgement that surfing had existed there far before colonialists, even before Captain Cook had gone to the Hawaiian Islands even, you know, it's, it's amazing that rediscovery and I think it's really empowering to a lot of people.

[00:26:56] And I imagine when you were talking to pe to [00:27:00] the surfers in Ghana, like were they aware of that and, and how much does that empower them and feel like ownership of surfing to a certain extent, do you think?

[00:27:11] Lucy: Yeah, I, um, we raised this with Justice, um, who, um, is kind of one of the main protagonists in the film and the driving force behind the girls surf club.

[00:27:21] Um, and it was funny, like I don't think there's a really, a broad awareness of like the, of the history that Kevin writes about. , but I felt like justice was pretty casual about just going, oh no, everyone's always surfed here. Like, when I was trying to ask about that, it, it was like, yeah, yeah, we've always surfed, everyone's always surfed on the wooden boards and just quite a, um, like yeah, rather than going, oh yeah, we've got this history and it's all these kind of like, it was this, then it was this, then it was just a real, kind of, almost an assumption like, yeah, of course we all, we everyone, we all, we rode wooden, wooden boards and.

[00:27:59] [00:28:00] Um, modern Surfboards came and we just realized they're so much better.

[00:28:06] Maggie: it almost felt like the way he spoke about it was it kind of had that familiarity of something that makes it become so mundane that you don't even, you don't even think of it. Like, it's kind of like he had, they'd just been doing it for so long and in, in pretty much exactly the same way until Modern Surfboards arrived, that there was, it just wasn't really anything of note.

[00:28:25] So then we were like, but how long have you been kind of surfing on these boards? Like, tell us about it. And, and it was kinda like, what? Like always

[00:28:37] Tyler: I love that though, because it's, It has not been portrayed that way for so long. And, and like I said, like going all the way back to the endless summer and, you know, the worst, I

[00:28:48] Karen: hate the segments, just

[00:28:49] Tyler: the worst. You know, it's,

[00:28:51] Karen: it's really hard for me to, it's hard that

[00:28:53] Tyler: film, it's hard because it's like, I think it's, it's a film that [00:29:00] was, is really important to surf culture if for many reasons.

[00:29:04] But it's, it's like anything when you look back and you cringe a little bit and you're like, oh, airplane wings go in, trunk just sound so condescending and, and awful. You know, those types of, you know, jokes or it, you know, that they did it just, but. Like how do you divorce that? I guess even? Yeah, like how do you divorce those things?

[00:29:25] Karen: I mean, it becomes a record of that time as well. I mean, you know, it's the fifties in America and you know, I marvel at just the filmmaking components of it. Like at that time they're carrying these huge heavy boards around the world. with film that needs to be developed at some point. Like, oh my God, , the filmmaking component of it to me blows my mind.

[00:29:48] And just the, the navigation of space. And, you know, when you, uh, you know, I mean, I, I used to travel before the internet, so I remember having my little guidebook or just go, you know, winging it, just [00:30:00] showing up somewhere and just figuring things out. But like, you know, it's unimaginable to think about it by today's standards, you know, where you can have maps on you constantly and, and Google translations and, you know, so the language barrier isn't there, and like, how kind of fun it was when you had to do all that guesswork.

[00:30:19] But, uh, yeah, I mean, from that standpoint, I enjoy the film

[00:30:24] Maggie: also, like I had always thought, I kind of looked back on films like that and, um, very like rose into glasses in the, in the idea of like being intrepid and surfing waves that no one had ever surfed before. Mm-hmm. and then, Me and my partner did a van trip down to, um, Northern Spain last year, and we fa we kind of came across this wave and we'd seen it working a couple times and it was like in a river mouth and we didn't know if it, we didn't know if it even was a real wave and if it had been surfed.

[00:30:52] And then, uh, we spoke to some. Some people about it and no one was really like, no one really knew about it. It's not being written about anywhere. [00:31:00] It's not, there's nothing. And uh, and we went and surf it one day and I was so terrified. I was honestly, I was like, no one's gonna know where we are.

[00:31:13] Karen: No one can see us.

[00:31:14] Or is there a reason why no one's surfing this

[00:31:16] Maggie: game that we dunno of . Yeah. It was honestly, I think . Yeah, exactly. I was like, is this horribly dangerous? Um, it was fine. We survived. He got some really good ones. I got a couple that were fine, but the was mostly the main thing that I remember from the surf.

[00:31:36] Not like this exciting trepidation. It was just pure fear. .

[00:31:41] Karen: Yeah. And exploration. Like the, the idea that like now we. pre kind of visualize a lot of things that we might see in real life or mm-hmm. , uh, but then, you know, you just would show up and you didn't know what you were gonna find, you know, which was the excitement of it all.

[00:31:59] You know, it's also [00:32:00] harder to navigate, but like, once you score, just like a wave, once you score and it takes work to get there, you know, to find it something unique, something special, um, that you didn't know of existed before, and then you score on that perfect kind of perfectly aligned day. There's nothing like it.

[00:32:16] It's, it's really like, there's something about that I think in our spirit that is, um, makes it more special. Maybe that's why I'm not surfing so much here, cuz there're just waves all the time happening versus New York.

[00:32:29] Tyler: Take it for granted. Take it for granted. That's safe. You don't get those month long flat spells.

[00:32:37] um, But that's a, you know, it kind of actually goes into this next question I have is your expectations going into Ghana and making this film and then leaving Ghana, how did they stack up, you know, from what, what you were expecting to make and what you came out with in terms of footage, interviews [00:33:00] and the people you met?

[00:33:03] Lucy: Um, I think what we've came out with is a lot better than what I, I, I had thought of

[00:33:08] Maggie: going in

[00:33:12] Lucy: Hey, Maddie's amazing.

[00:33:14] Tyler: Like, other than Maddie farting her sleep or something. But other than that, you know, , sorry I had to blow it up there. ,

[00:33:24] Lucy: I think the only, the only low light was when we, um, thought that we were gonna see usher. Um, and then, and then we accidentally went to bed before Asher came on thinking that he had already played

[00:33:37] No,

[00:33:39] Maggie: we were

[00:33:44] confess thinking we were there. Minutes.

[00:33:54] I think like

[00:33:55] Lucy: in terms of the actual film, like what, um, [00:34:00] I think the elements of the kind of, um, building that, like, I think we learned a lot while we were there about um, how, you know, there's a lot of people who, who in Ghana who don't wanna be filmed in the street because they don't know what's gonna happen to the footage or the way that they're gonna be shown.

[00:34:18] because they're so sick of that happening, of them being just caught in footage. And then that being used to tell a completely, completely different story. And people that are just really, really sick of think stories being told about them without them having a voice in it. Um, so I think that is something that we really learnt a lot about when we're actually in Ghana.

[00:34:42] So, coming into it, we didn't really, I like, I didn't really have an idea of how we were gonna approach that. And so I, I feel like then coming out and what we made was quite different and a lot better in that sense. Um, we did go in [00:35:00] with a pretty, um, un uh, exhaustive plan, , like we were pretty well going.

[00:35:07] Okay. We are just gonna see what the story is when we get there.

[00:35:17] Tyler: That's like sometimes the best way to go about it, right? Like it's so much better to, to just be open to what the story's gonna reveal to you, rather than trying to force a square peg in a round hole. You know? It's just, you allow those things and, and it becomes, it feels more genuine and more authentic I think.

[00:35:38] And that's one thing that I feel with this film, it felt very authentic and not forced at all, which was wonderful. Um, and refreshing. Um, I think we lost Karen . Yeah.

[00:35:54] Maggie: Are there, she seems

[00:35:54] Lucy: to just now, instead of a face, ,

[00:35:59] Maggie: [00:36:00] she's a little planet .

[00:36:03] Tyler: Well, I, I wanted to then know like, what can you contrast surf culture in Ghana to like your local breaks?

[00:36:11] Like what are the differences and what were the similarities that you noticed, uh, amongst their cul the surf culture there? Because I, I, I have this thing where there's a lot of similarities where I travel when I travel for surf and I meet people and you're like, oh yeah, this, of course, we all experience these similar things or we have a lot of common experiences, but there's also a lot of nuance and a lot of differences in surf culture and how it's portrayed, how it's talked, the language, um, you know, some of the slang even.

[00:36:41] Um, so I was like kind of curious like what you found there to be familiar and what you found to be totally different to what your, you know, what your normal surf break would.

[00:36:53] Maggie: It's, um, well, I think the started is the main thing. I kinda, it's a

[00:36:56] Lucy: lot less crowded. . , yes. . [00:37:00]

[00:37:02] Maggie: It's a lot less crowded. And also I think that's, that probably contributes to this.

[00:37:08] Like, there's such an amazing atmosphere in the water. Everyone's like really happy and kind of cheering each other on and waves. And the girls were getting like so many party waves and just, you know, if that, if I, if I suggested a party wave, I feel like everyone would be like, are you, are you kidding me?

[00:37:26] absolutely not . And um, and yeah, it's just, it's just kind of, it feels really supportive and exciting and, and I think sometimes, especially in the UK, because it is busy, especially post covid, it's even busier than usual. And um, and so you can get bogged down in like crowded ways and the fact that, you know, You can't get as many or the, there hasn't been swell for a month, so everyone's super hungry in the lineup and yeah, it just, it just didn't really [00:38:00] feel like that there.

[00:38:00] I dunno. What did you, how, what did you think Luke?

[00:38:05] Lucy: Yeah, I think, um, it was, I, it was interesting. I think like, I, I know cuz surfing so big in Australia and it's like intergen, there's like an intergenerational buildup of, of collective knowledge of the coast and the waves and you know, like there's not really any waves that you can discover on the New South Wales coast.

[00:38:26] Everybody knows what waves work and which conditions and all that kind of thing. Whereas in Ghana it's a lot more at the stage of like there was a few days where we kind of walked into this spot and it should have been working cuz there was swell, but then it was probably like the wrong swell direction and so you just kind of walk in and then, Oh, it's not working.

[00:38:49] And there's kind of much more like, um, it's kind of an an exploratory element to surfing. So people are kind of discovering new [00:39:00] places on their own coast and finding new waves all the time. And, um, I, I've really, I noticed that like it's kind of this. Like we just, you know, I just check Surfline or whatever, and I'd look at the cam and then I'd go and surf at Bondi and know exactly what it's gonna be like.

[00:39:17] And then also just the kind of, um, like the girls, we hung out with them after school. Like they would finish school, come down to the beach, do their like fitness with the, with justice. And then there was no like, oh, the waves aren't good, so I'm not going out. It's like you just go out , everyone just goes out.

[00:39:37] And sometimes it was so bad. ,

[00:39:40] Maggie: it was not really about that.

[00:39:45] Tyler: Like, it sounds like it feels like it, you almost went back in time, you know, in some ways, like to a more innocent age of surfing. No,

[00:39:57] Lucy: I think that, yeah, I think in a way, like going [00:40:00] back to maybe what surfing would've been like in Australia in this.

[00:40:03] Seventies maybe. Um, where it was a lot more about, uh, just the joy of surfing and being in the water and that kind of community and being with your friends out there. Whereas now, like surfing in Australia is like basically captured by corporate industries and it's all about the industry and, and it's, it's got that much more kind of intense hostile edge to it because there's a, you know, there's money and there's all that kind of stuff at state.

[00:40:33] There's a pathway into pro surfing and there's kind of all that, all that going on that, um, thankfully is not in Ghana yet, . Um, and so I think that, that it is, it definitely is a, and it's a much smaller community as well. Like everybody knows each other and, um, there's lots of secret waves that people only local crew know about.

[00:40:56] And, um, so I think it's, yeah, it, I think it is sort of like

[00:40:59] Tyler: [00:41:00] that. It feels like a return to grommet hood. Like . I don't know, like when I was a kid, you, there was all that newness and to explore, even though the older surfers might have known it as a kid, you're like, oh yeah, oh, what's around the corner? Is this a new spot?

[00:41:16] Like I, I feel like there's that kind of element to it, which is so refreshing. And, and it, it, it definitely comes across in the film as well, which is, which is huge, you know, and it's inspiring. I think. Um, Karen is back ,

[00:41:34] Maggie: I'm back. Technical difficulties, . I'm like, lemme

[00:41:41] Lucy: in

[00:41:46] Tyler: But how is the, the editing process been then for this? Like how is like going back and Juan, you're on both sides of the Wait before we're in post

[00:41:56] Karen: production, did we, did we talk about how long we were there for?

[00:41:59] Tyler: [00:42:00] Oh yeah, let's go here. Yeah. How long were you there for? Two

[00:42:05] Maggie: weeks. Just over two weeks I think.

[00:42:07] Wow. Did you

[00:42:07] Karen: score any swell, ? I mean, like,

[00:42:10] Maggie: yeah.

[00:42:12] Karen: And where did, where did, where did their waves come from?

[00:42:16] Maggie: It was like, it was pretty, yeah, . Um, it was kinda, it was kinda consistent, wasn't it? Like we had, as soon as we were down on the coast, there was a couple really good mornings straight away. And, um, and then we did some kind of, we did a few, like a bit of goose around, kind of up and down the coast with various people.

[00:42:40] And, um, yeah, you scored, so we found this point after, uh, after a couple days of not finding much and, and you surfed it. You surfed it one day. Had a great time. Got like a sickness bug the next day and then surfed it the following morning. No,[00:43:00]

[00:43:02] that wasn't good.

[00:43:09] Gosh.

[00:43:11] Tyler: Standard travel though, right? Like standard surf adventure. .

[00:43:15] Lucy: I was claiming that's in all my travels. It's was the first time I've gotten like really sick on a trip and um, I was claiming that to Maddy. I was like, don't worry, I won't get sick. I'd never get sick.

[00:43:29] Maggie: later,

[00:43:30] Lucy: I'm like, oh, I'm sick. .

[00:43:33] Karen: Yeah, you're not allowed to say it out loud. You gotta just keep it in until the trips over.

[00:43:39] Maggie: The funniest thing was, is that we were in, we were in like a tree house , we were at, at this eco large. And so every time you like needed to go and get water or go to the news,

[00:43:49] Lucy: like up, down ladder , oh my god, I'm

[00:43:51] Karen: sorry.

[00:43:52] I

[00:43:53] Lucy: was pouring, oh my god, rain. It was pouring rain

[00:43:55] Karen: so rainy. Still have a stomach bug like that. That's

[00:43:59] Lucy: awful. [00:44:00] And then the next day I was like, okay, I'm feeling lot better. And so we went and we went back to this point break that I had, had a really good surfer the day before and um, I, I were like, Hey, I'm just gonna surf, but I'm feeling pretty weak.

[00:44:13] Like, it's not gonna be the best surf. But then that surf is actually probably like the main surf segment in the, in the, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, you,

[00:44:22] Maggie: I dunno where you must from. It's amazing.

[00:44:30] Tyler: well, you're probably a little lighter because of the, you know, all of that. And so the board was a little bit more buoyant, catch a few more waves, you know, , ,

[00:44:38] Maggie: levitating. How ,

[00:44:41] Tyler: I've always found that to be a great way to serve small waves, you know, that's my strategy.

[00:44:50] Um, how, how about like, like I imagine like they're aware of surf culture everywhere and they're aware of a lot of things. Like [00:45:00] is there, do they, like, one is, I'm curious, like, is there a budding surf industry locally? Do you see that there's local shapers starting to come up? , people with clothing, trying to make clothing specific for surfing.

[00:45:16] Um, is there, did you see any, any of that kind of growing, uh, over there and then like do you see the outer world, the, the greater world of surf culture influencing them in any ways?

[00:45:31] Lucy: Yeah, so I think like there is, um, somebody there who has now like started the first kind of shaping bay. He's not a local guy, he's a British guy.

[00:45:40] He's lived there for a long time, but he's kind of trying to work with local surfers to try and build those skills and, and it's like the very beginning of, um, that's awesome. Starting the, the, this industry. And I, I, I think that that is like, you know, once you kind of have the very first like [00:46:00] surfboard production, that's kind of where the start of the industry and the place being sustainable because it's not reliant on imports and.

[00:46:08] You know, like they're kind of starting to build the materials and build the boards. I think that I, I feel like that's gonna really start, um, something a lot like quite big there. Um, because otherwise it is all reliant on, on getting boards from outside of the country and people bringing them and that kind of thing.

[00:46:26] Um, I think there are starting to be a lot more people, um, foreigners traveling to Ghana to surf now. It's sort of starting to be on the map as a location too. So I think that that's starting to, you know, people are, it's not isolated and people are, um, being influenced by kind of traveling pros and, um, and the crew from South Africa who are voice kind of quick to jump on any good waves or on the African continent, um, coming in and outta there now.

[00:46:55] Yeah,

[00:46:58] Tyler: I, I, I feel like [00:47:00] there should be, instead of board, like, you know, you see a lot of surfers like the Kowski brothers who are great, you know, but they, they're. donating boards there and you're like, maybe it should be blanks instead in shaping material, you

[00:47:12] Maggie: know? Yeah, yeah. I think, um, yeah, when you said, uh, when you sent that question through about, um, board shaping and things, it's so hard cause I never, I never wanna, um, sort of this prior projects where they've done board donation because, uh, for in Ghana for example, in it, it is still really reliant on donations and, and those are a lot of the boards that the girls are riding are, are donated boards.

[00:47:36] So it ha has been really important, I think. Um, but yeah, and, and I was, I was really thinking about it yesterday trying to figure out, you know, how other than kind of setting up shaping bays and things, and I guess the alternatives to just donating boards are donating cash and yeah, like you said, donating and then encouraging that industry to grow as well.

[00:47:58] That was one thing we spoke to [00:48:00] Sandy about, uh, too, and she was like, look, I. You know, she was, she was saying she wanted to encourage the industries around surfing too. And I think from my perspective, we obviously were making this film, it was just the two of us and we did everything. But had we like another go, it would've been so great to get a Ghana photographer and a Ghana videographer on board as well.

[00:48:23] And in the future, that would be a really, a really exciting thing to do and just try and encourage and actually pay the people in those industries as well. So yeah, donating blanks so that you can encourage Shapers to shape and, and, yeah. Yeah, I think that's,

[00:48:38] Lucy: that's really, that was really, um, one of the things that Sandy really EMP emphasized was about hiring local people.

[00:48:45] And, um, like I really wish that, We had the resources to do that because she was saying that, you know, like, um, news, like media comes to Ghana and like while we were there, lonely Planet we're also filming something with Sandy. And [00:49:00] um, she said like, they used to come with like all foreign crews and now she's worked with these different organizations to come with like one D o P and then hire all local people.

[00:49:12] So I think that that's really's great. It's really cool what they, what she's doing. Mm-hmm. And I think that that really does need to be like a, a kind of a broad mindset change. That if you have the resources to hire someone, the best thing to do is to hire someone from that place. Um mm-hmm. . That's wonderful.

[00:49:29] Karen: Not to mention the content will be richer.

[00:49:31] Lucy: Yeah, yeah. Like they're gonna be able to, they're gonna, like, if you wanna have an understanding of like Ghanaian perspectives, the best person to do that is a Ghanaian person. . And a huge part of her objectives is just, , you know, building access and skills and tools to be able to do for, for people that are part of Surf Ghana, to be able to do their own storytelling and tell their own stories.

[00:49:58] Mm-hmm. ,

[00:49:59] Karen: I also [00:50:00] love kind of the equal treatment of the girls in this film. Um, they were just, uh, they just won my heart, you know, that one shot of you guys walking all, you know, holding the boards together. It just, that was just the best . Um, but I think a lot of, even these kind of, um, films that feature surfing in other places, um, they tend to feature the men there.

[00:50:24] Um, and then if they have a, a girl, it's an afterthought. It's just like, oh look, you know, this token, there's something, something different. Yeah. But it's not really like, okay, this is what's happening here. And it was very, very articulate, um, how the girls and the young women were central to. This scene. Um, as far as like what I received from the film, um, the skating community and the surf community, and also how they, in through the sport, we're able to kind of transcend gender expectations, um, that might be there in their traditions and, and [00:51:00] whatnot.

[00:51:00] So it kind of helps usher a whole new, uh, way of life. Um, also one connected to the environment. Um, but the, um, I wondered if there was any crossover between the girls who skated and the girls who served.

[00:51:16] Maggie: They hadn't, they hadn't really met had they, because they, um, cause Sora, which is the, um, capital city where the skate park is, is a.

[00:51:26] um, it's like a nine hour drive. Yeah. in like the most hectic roads

[00:51:32] Karen: ever. . You gotta really be a Frother. .

[00:51:35] Maggie: Yeah. . Yeah. Uh, and it actually, that's not the closest town there is. There's cock, which is where, um, loose mentioned the guy that's setting up the shaping bay, Mr. Brights. He's called Brett Davies. He's based in Coro.

[00:51:48] And that's, um, a bit closer. I think. That's only a couple of hours away from Aran as there's waves there as well. Mm-hmm. . But, um, yeah, so these girls hadn't, hadn't met one another cause the, um, skaters hadn't had [00:52:00] a chance to go visit and vice versa. But I think they, I think they did the other day I saw some shots of, um, blue on her.

[00:52:08] Hanging out in oi. So yeah, I think, I think since we've been there, they have actually gone down there. They were so the skater girls were so keen to go as well. They were just like, oh, oh, we just wanna surf. We just wanna surf so much. And yeah, they were, they were really

[00:52:21] Karen: excited about it. , the surfers were really good.

[00:52:24] I was impressed. I was think I was thinking like five years from now it's gonna be serious. Mm. Yeah.

[00:52:30] Maggie: They're 13. Like I, yeah. I was nowhere near that. Well, I hadn't started when I there . Yeah. They're

[00:52:36] Lucy: really good .

[00:52:38] Tyler: Yeah. Like I, do you feel that there was a sense before we met? Oh, for and met them?

[00:52:46] Lucy: Oh, I just, just that I kind of thought that they were probably gonna be like beginners. I'd kind of prejudged that. And then we got there and I was like, oh my gosh, you guys rip and.[00:53:00]

[00:53:01] Totally. And I was so impressed with how, like, good at reading the waves, all the girls were like, there were, so some of the waves are so bad, but they're always so good at like finding little runners and positioning themselves in the right spot and um, yeah. And get their own sections

[00:53:14] Maggie: and stuff. Yeah, yeah.

[00:53:17] Yeah. And, and what's amazing too is that, um, they, justice kind of touches on it in the film, but they, he really had to put a lot of effort in for them to be even be able to come out and serve in the club. He taught them to swim, first of all. And then he said that took a few, like couple years to teach them to swim, but by the end of it, they were kind of out swimming him, you know, to, and um, and then once he taught them to swim, then he had to go around and kind of convince all the parents, all the church members, everybody to allow the girls to come out.

[00:53:49] Because their roles are, are, especially in the, in like the coastal communities, the, the women's role is. Still very like, traditional in the sense of like, they're the [00:54:00] ones doing the cooking and the cleaning, and so they just don't have any spare time really. And it's just not typical for them to be spending any spare time in the water.

[00:54:08] So,

[00:54:09] Tyler: um, justice sounds like such an incredible person. Like Yeah. That vision to have that, that's, that's incredible. You know? Mm-hmm. like to, to say, right, I'm gonna get these girls surfing, but not just that, but I'm gonna teach 'em to swim first, then I gotta go around and I'm gonna talk to their parents and ask their parents to allow them to break social norms and allow them to surf.

[00:54:36] You know, it's a, it's a huge effort. It's really incredible. Yeah.

[00:54:43] Maggie: And it kinda links back to, like you were saying earlier, like how your, kind of, your perspective, our perspectives have changed since being there. And a massive thing to me is like, . You know, I, I kind of grew up surfing in North Devon and most of the guy, the people that I surfed with growing up with were [00:55:00] men and like 40, and they.

[00:55:04] And so I, and my parents couldn't give me many lists and stuff, so I'd always sort of, my narrative to myself was that I had these barriers to entry. And then you go over there and you're like, this is just, uh, you know, just completely throws things into perspective. The fact that like, you know, their, their parents hadn't, it, it wasn't ever really done before.

[00:55:25] So, and, and also the barrier sent in terms of self travel, like it's so much harder to get visas there and, and getting all the equipment and stuff and yeah, it threw things into perspective pretty quickly. I

[00:55:39] Tyler: do you, do you also models,

[00:55:41] Karen: role models? I think that's Oh yeah. If you don't see it, like how do you know you can do that?

[00:55:46] You know? Yeah. Especially as, as women and girls, you know, I think that to be able to kind of create it out of nothing is pretty amazing, you know, out of just your own will and then the help of someone who wants to share this beautiful thing with you. [00:56:00]

[00:56:01] Lucy: Yeah. Like I think, um, watching when we. When we went back through all the footage when we were starting the post-production, um,

[00:56:09] Tyler: I was just, here's the post-production, Karen

[00:56:12] Maggie: Sorry.

[00:56:14] Tyler: Good

[00:56:14] Maggie: segue.

[00:56:18] Lucy: I felt like actually, like I got emotional watching the footage of justice and the footage of Sandy, but just like about how there's just, you know, this repeated kind of stereotype and this story that is told that has just like denied somebody like justice who was doing the most innovative, like creative, generous, and like super progressive work.

[00:56:47] Um, and then that, that because people get so trapped in wanting to tell this story of charity about Africa that just like, Deny somebody like justice, the opportunity to like [00:57:00] tell his story and, and tell that story. And I really felt like that is just so unfair and and like, it's, it's amazing what he's doing.

[00:57:09] And I, I felt like when we were there that I was going, why you out of everyone? Like why have you got this vision? And then he talks about in the film how he was, um, raised by his grandmother and his, his business is supported by a woman and he felt like he wants, has to do something good for women, which was really nice.

[00:57:30] Hmm,

[00:57:30] Maggie: that's, he's just one of those people that I feel like you could, you could place him anywhere and you know that he'd just faked change. He's just, yeah, he's really amazing.

[00:57:39] Karen: I mean, with a name like Justice, come on, .

[00:57:42] Maggie: He's got a lot to look up to.

[00:57:47] Karen: but I love every time it was like, and Injustice did this, and Justice said that, and I was like, yes. It has a great ring to

[00:57:53] Tyler: it. Um, are you excited to screen the movie? Like, are you, how [00:58:00] are you nervous? Are you excited? What are you feeling? Because it's up, uh, March 28th Correct. Is your first screening, is that, is that correct?

[00:58:08] Lucy: Yeah. Um, that's fine. Yeah. I feel like can't wait for everyone to see it. Also really nervous. . I

[00:58:15] Maggie: hope everyone likes it.

[00:58:22] Like, I think

[00:58:23] Lucy: we've really like, for me especially, but just like ourselves into this project, I'm like, never made a film before. Gonna make the most like complicated film ever. And then just book a cinema and then just hope everyone comes

[00:58:42] Karen: That's awesome. That's that, you know, pioneering spirit.

[00:58:45] Lucy: That's great.

[00:58:48] Maggie: I hope it's amazing though, .

[00:58:52] Tyler: Um, do you, yeah. You guys have now that, I mean, I know. Wow. Wow. Yeah, we [00:59:00] saw That's awesome. Yeah, we

[00:59:01] Maggie: saw that earlier, . Yeah, it felt pretty good actually. It's nice to like kind just see the tickets coming in. I feel like I've worked on stuff before and yay.

[00:59:10] And where things don't sell and you're like, oh, is amazing. I know. Oh my God. They're had to really my friends and be like, okay guys, like they're half gone. You want, if you wanna come, like get your ticket, they're gonna

[00:59:22] Karen: go and then, yeah. Wait, is it gonna be part of a bigger thing or is It's

[00:59:27] Tyler: on for stand standalone, right?

[00:59:29] It's,

[00:59:29] Maggie: um, so the, the uk Well actually, but you, you are showing Morgan Masson and um,

[00:59:35] Lucy: uh,

[00:59:37] Maggie: Manuel name. Sorry. Malia. Manuel, yeah.

[00:59:39] Lucy: Yeah. Beautiful. Um,

[00:59:41] Maggie: seriously, But mine is just, uh, it's just a film. Although we're gonna have like a little discussion panel afterwards. Mm-hmm. . And then we've got one of the bands whose, um, songs we license, um, coming to play.

[00:59:53] So they're doing like a live co set and then they're gonna also do a DJ set at an after party. So [01:00:00]

[01:00:00] Tyler: by the way, the music is also phenomenal in this, isn't it? Just like, let's give some credit there. Like, yeah, I mean that, I mean, did you, when you were there, did you just absorb the music as well? Because it's just, it's Oh, it, I loved it.

[01:00:19] I want the soundtrack , Spotify that

[01:00:23] Maggie: Thank you.

[01:00:24] Lucy: Sweat into that

[01:00:26] Maggie: soundtrack. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's Lucy secured all of it. .

[01:00:33] Tyler: Wow. That's a lot of work. Securing soundtrack.

[01:00:37] Lucy: Yeah, I feel like that's, it's like a key example of what it's like to make a project like this when you've never done anything like this before.

[01:00:45] Because like two months, basically the process was that Maddie started to like build the soundtrack of the songs and as she was editing, editing to the music and I was going, okay, like I'm gonna secure the licenses for the songs. [01:01:00] And only like two months into doing that did I find out that there's like entire companies based on doing just that

[01:01:09] It's something called music Supervision I didn't know existed because I been like, this is a lot of work

[01:01:19] Maggie: and we

[01:01:20] Lucy: really try to, like all of the songs are, the artists either are from or have a connection to West Africa. So, um, and a lot of them are like feminist artists and musicians that have kind wow looked and, and. Um, on that kind of things, like the opening track, um, by Rocky Kanye, she's like kind of been, it's like our favorite that's the yeah.

[01:01:45] Song. But she has done this amazing work, um, kind of, she's from Mali and working on like, kind of driving women, um, into the industry and the Maren music industry and, um, her [01:02:00] management are like this amazing organization that have run big, like social justice campaigns and stuff. And so we tried to really, um, kind of keep the music, um, in line with like, the overall vision of the team.

[01:02:14] Tyler: Um, I That's great. I love great. Mm-hmm. .

[01:02:16] Lucy: That's awesome. Yeah, so I had all these really, um, conversations with all these record labels and management and stuff, and I just had no idea. I just was like, hi, I just thought you. Get a song, but you don't

[01:02:30] Maggie: it's a whole,

[01:02:32] Karen: they're like, how many seconds? Okay, that'll be $5,000

[01:02:36] Yeah, ,

[01:02:37] Maggie: you can use it for two months.

[01:02:41] You can

[01:02:42] Tyler: play it on this platform, but not this platform and this and that. It's like, oof. Um,

[01:02:47] Lucy: but we did have some artists, some really awesome artists who donated some music too, um, which is yeah. Is really, really nice. And um, we probably wouldn't have had enough money if they didn't do that. So , [01:03:00] um, yeah.

[01:03:01] But I'm glad you liked the soundtrack because it was a lot of effort. .

[01:03:06] Maggie: Yeah, .

[01:03:07] Tyler: Well, it, it was great. And I'm waiting for that to be released. There's a playlist somewhere at least. Yeah, we

[01:03:13] Maggie: will launch it, won't we? I, I'm not sure when, but we'll, ,

[01:03:18] Tyler: um, what now? I know it's a bit premature, but. Do you see you guys yourselves working on another project now together, now that you've got the, you know, the, the gears in place and you know, you, you've, you've traveled together and kind of like have fam familiarized each other with your idiosyncrasies.

[01:03:40] So , are we, are we talking? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:44] Maggie: Oh yeah. . Well, I mean

[01:03:47] Tyler: Maddie's like, yeah, Lucy's like, oh, maybe. We'll see. It's playing. I was say that,

[01:03:52] Lucy: I was gonna say that the last like, um, like five months or whatever it's been of postproduction have been just [01:04:00] intermittent with me having another idea for a film. .

[01:04:05] Maggie: I love, it's like I say, it's maybe once every three weeks you'll say, oh, maybe we Theo.

[01:04:22] So funny. Um, so

[01:04:25] Lucy: yeah, we do have, we've got a few ideas to lean on . Yeah.

[01:04:30] Maggie: Yeah. We've definitely got our next five lined up. So,

[01:04:36] Tyler: I I wanna also, um, switch gears here for the last few minutes. I'm, I'm curious, like, Lucy, with, with your experience, I, I wanna drive it back to kind of what we were talking about at the beginning with, with how you, you called out the competition and how has your experience with the surf industry and the surf media [01:05:00] as a whole been since that, and have you found it to be welcoming, combative, um, frustrating.

[01:05:08] I'm, I'm just kind of curious like, uh, sorry. This is, I'm, I'm, I'm diverting here, but it's was a curio. I had a, I had these thoughts for years now about this and how you've had to manage that and navigate it, you know? Cause you, you got a DM from Ian Karen's, you know, and stuff like that, which is just like, ugh,

[01:05:28] Wow. Yeah. Did you really?

[01:05:31] Lucy: Oh my God. I got into an Instagram fight with Ian Cairns. He's still on it.

[01:05:37] Tyler: You're not the first .

[01:05:40] Maggie: He, um,

[01:05:41] Lucy: just doesn't spell. He claimed that apparently I need him to get anywhere. And I was like, Hmm, . I don't think so, actually. Um, and wow. Just apparently just those

[01:05:52] Karen: terms. It's just, it's amazing.

[01:05:55] It's amazing. How old is Sky now? I mean, I can't believe

[01:05:58] Tyler: in his late sixties. You [01:06:00] need my late sixties. Oh God, . I know,

[01:06:04] Lucy: I know. Known feminist, known feminist Ian Cannes. Anyway, so , it's been, it's been overall like, I would say really positive. I think, um, no one that I have respect for has done anything to, um, you know, be resistant to or rejected the, the, um, proposition that women should be treated as equals.

[01:06:30] Um, I think they're, yeah, like. I had an experience with Tracks Magazine, so they are, um, sort of Australia's, yeah, sort of biggest surf mass head. Like, and going back they have, you know, everybody's dad had a subscription to Tracks and . Um, they've been running, so they started in 1970. And, um, I always had a bit of a personal issue with tracks [01:07:00] because growing up in a pretty isolated part of Western Australia where there was not really a surf industry.

[01:07:07] The surf scene there was just kind of like a big wave surfers. And, um, the connection to any kind of world or surf is through surf magazines, pre-social media times. And um, so there would be Tracks magazine and they would like send out their issue and would have a D V D, sorry. It would have a D V D and there was never a film about women and there was never a like, stories about women in the mag.

[01:07:37] And I always felt like, you know, some that seeing, seeing that and feeling like there was no place for me in that world. It seemed so far away and so distant. And then, um, so I have like openly criticized to them before and it's not just tracks obviously. They're an example of like the broader issues in surf media.

[01:07:59] Yeah. [01:08:00] Historically. Um, and, but, so I was doing a, um, I did a, a podcast, a British podcast, um, like quite soon after the viral thing. And I talked about this and I named Tracks. And then at the end of 2021, tracks got in touch with me and they said, we want to do an article about you for, um, for the print issue.

[01:08:21] And um, I was a little bit reluctant to do it because I thought, okay, you wanna jump on this now that it's like trendy, but like, where were you when I was 15 and ? Where have you been all these years? And I can't just forget about that. I can't just suddenly go, yeah, sure, like this is all wonderful. But, um, Kate, who I, um, do equal pay for, equal play with, she was like, you have to do it.

[01:08:46] You should do it because these are the people's minds who we are trying to change. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. So I did the interview, I did the interview with the editor Luke, and he [01:09:00] had listened to my podcast where I'd criticized tracks and he brought it up in the interview and um, I mean, it was a little bit awkward I guess, but , we got to have actually a real proper conversation about the kind of, You know, the one dimensional, um, representation of women's surfers that happens throughout the industry and advertising.

[01:09:22] And, um, the way that, like how, you know, representation matters and that surf magazines have like, uh, like deliberately raised our collective female surf memory and our history. Yeah. Like it's the, when people talk about the legends of the past and this exploration and this, all these kind of travel stories, there were women there, but the stories weren't documented.

[01:09:50] So now people feel like women weren't there. And that is, that is the responsibility of the surf media. So we got to have [01:10:00] that conversation in the interview and I feel like it was actually ended up being a really. Experience. And then they put me on the cover and I was like, well, that's one way to shut me up.

[01:10:13] Karen: But it's also visibility, you know? It's for that other 15 year old girl today who sees you on the cover, that's priceless, you know? Yeah. So I understand it is like a double edge sword, but I think that visibility and it's gotta change

[01:10:28] Lucy: somewhere. Totally. And, and since then though, tracks have been awesome.

[01:10:33] Like they really do have, um, like so many more female stories. Like that issue was the start of last year was the first issue that they had had a female surfer shot by a female photographer on the cover. Wow. And um, so it was the first time two women had teamed up for the cover and then they put out another issue.

[01:10:53] It was the same year that was the same. So, and they're always, you know, like they've actually become really [01:11:00] supportive. And I feel like it's been a real success story. in a way is like getting tracks on board with the project. Um, and um, the editor actually ended up saying to me that I remind him of his mom.

[01:11:13] So

[01:11:15] Tyler: Aw

[01:11:18] It's, it's interesting cuz like you mentioned that like, first I gotta give a shout out for, to Kim Mackenzie who keeps reminding us how poorly the magazines have misrepresented women on social media. She's, ugh, one of my heroes. I love her. Yeah, diehard. And, but like Karen and I have like, interviewed a lot of the founding women of professional surfing and it's unbelievable how like, I feel as a, I'm a surf history nerd and you can see you lot.

[01:11:49] That's an understatement. Collection. It's an understatement. Um, but I feel gypped because I love surf history and I love the mythology. I love the stories. , but I feel slightly [01:12:00]gypped because there were some incredible women surfers mm-hmm. at that time in the seventies particularly, that were totally erased.

[01:12:08] They were not, there's, their photos weren't taken. The magazines told the photographers not to shoot them. There weren't articles about them. And it's like so crushing cuz they had some of the coolest and best stories, to be honest, way better than some of the men, you know? And it's just like, oh, I feel kind of gypped out of that.

[01:12:27] Like, we, we didn't get the best, the best stories that we could have had to add to our collective consciousness of surfing. So, uh, good on you for doing that. And, and, and, and getting the cover of tracks, like, I mean mm-hmm. Freaking amazing. ,

[01:12:45] Maggie: thank you .

[01:12:48] Lucy: I really, I really have felt the same way about that always before the, um, equal prize money thing.

[01:12:53] And like, I. I studied journalism and I started writing for Pacific Long Border from when I was like [01:13:00] 18. And um, I've always written stories about women because I've gone, I've thought, oh my God, we have to write it all down. . Yeah. We have more people being erased. Like we've gotta document all these stories because it's been like decades of people's stories not being tell told.

[01:13:18] And there are all these stories of women that have overcome these barriers to entry and kind of, you know, like really busted through, through all these like restrictions to be able to surf. Like they're probably some of the most committed surfers that. Of anyone, but no one was interested who had any, um, power to tell the stories at the time.

[01:13:41] And so, like, I've always had this urgency of like, oh my gosh, we've gotta, we've gotta do, write all this

[01:13:46] Tyler: Dows serious. They, they all had to deal with the Ian Karens of the surf worlds back then, you know, .

[01:13:54] Lucy: Yeah, totally. Totally.

[01:13:56] Karen: Like literally him also.

[01:13:58] Tyler: Yeah. literally him. [01:14:00] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:14:02] Lucy: Anyway, so Thank you. I look at me now.

[01:14:04] I

[01:14:04] Maggie: don't need you

[01:14:13] Tyler: Um, I, I, I am super stoked we got you on, uh, both of you. And, um, I would love for you guys to be able to come back on when your next project comes out, of course, and, and we can help promote it. And, and of course I would love to get you guys to New York for screening here, and we can kind of talk about that because that would be awesome and I think you'd love our community here.

[01:14:39] Um, but really, uh, can't thank you enough for your time today. Uh, it was really, I'm stoked. I know about you, Karen. Yeah.

[01:14:47] Karen: Thank you guys so much. And Lucy, it's so good to see you again, .

[01:14:51] Lucy: Yeah, you too. Thank you so much for having us. Um, yeah, really, really would love to come to New York, so we'll keep in touch about that.[01:15:00]

[01:15:00] Tyler: Where can our listeners, uh, find Yama, uh, the information for your film? Where can they find it?

[01:15:09] Lucy: Um, so we have a website called yama film.com and um, we have, at the moment we don't have any screenings in, oh, we, no, we have one screening. We just got accepted to, um, Dana Point Film Festival, so that's gonna be first weekend of May, um, in California.

[01:15:29] Nice. And then, yeah, we have the Australian premiere on the 28th of March in Sydney and the UK one, um, in Cornwall, which has actually sold out. So gonna have to wait and see if there's gonna be an encore there. .

[01:15:43] Tyler: Awesome. And where can our listeners find both of you online on your social if they want to follow you?

[01:15:53] I'm

[01:15:54] Maggie: at Mad Mattings on Instagram

[01:15:58] Lucy: and I'm at Saltwater [01:16:00] Pilgrim on Instagram.

[01:16:03] Tyler: Guys really super stoked. Thank you so much. And um, listeners, go check it out and with it, it does screen near you. Definitely go watch it. We will. It's, I highly recommend it. And, uh, yeah. And Karen, um, We're really glad to see you.

[01:16:22] I miss you. I'll see you soon. Yeah. You're gonna come bother you soon. Get a few weeks. Yeah. Will, you'll be hitting me up for a surf report now and, uh,

[01:16:31] Karen: does Rockaway Taco open yet? I don't think they open for another month, right?

[01:16:34] Tyler: Two minutes. They're, they're not. Yeah. We gotta wait till it gets a little warmer.

[01:16:38] Uh, we have a blizzard going on right now. Best tacos by the way. . not too shabby. Yeah.

[01:16:45] Karen: I'm best fish

[01:16:45] Tyler: tacos so good. But when you guys come to New York, we'll get, we'll get a slice. We won't get tacos. We get a slice, you know. New for Hey York. Slice. Hey, in New York, slice. Hey yo. How you doing? All right, listeners, thank you [01:17:00] so much and we'll check you all down the line.

[01:17:02] You.