[00:00:00] Tyler: The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by the new Stan Studio, ed Rockfeller Center in the heart of Manhattan, and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.

[00:00:53] Hello, full of sound[00:01:00]

[00:01:01] in the room. Stare up to you.

[00:01:06] Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your co-host for this episode, Tyler Brewer, and I'm joined by Swell season contributor Katherine Mao. Katherine, how you doing? Hi, I'm good. Thank you, Tyler. Thanks for joining. On February 3rd, the World Surf League announced a new policy allowing transgender women to compete in its women's category if they can prove their testosterone levels fall within a defined range.

[00:01:36] The news was quietly rolled out as there were no social media posts or major press releases announcing this policy. It wasn't until the following day when Bethany Hamilton publicly opposed the new W S L policy that the surfing world really took notice. Quote, the World Surf League has made the rule that male bodied [00:02:00] individuals known as transgender athletes can officially compete in the women's division.

[00:02:05] Bethany said in an Instagram reel also announcing that she plans to boycott WSL events until the rule is reversed. This set off, for a lack of a better term, a shit storm on social media with both sides of the debate shouting into the ether on the comment sections, it seemed almost everyone had an opinion, and to be honest, it was hard to listen to middle-aged men talking amongst themselves on podcasts, in articles, and in the common sections about the policy.

[00:02:37] Without talking to those most affected by this policy and the vitro that has come with it, we wanted to have a more nuanced and thoughtful conversation about this with friends who have firsthand experience and knowledge. So we are lucky and grateful to have our friends from Benny's Club, Joni Capta and Momo Otani HUDs here [00:03:00] to help us have a more meaningful conversation about trans inclusion and surfing.

[00:03:05] Uh, for those of you who might not be familiar with Benny's Club, they are a community-based surfing collective. They provide an inclusive space, not only for the queer surfers and surfers of color, but all together for the love of surfing they seek to cultivate a sustainable relationship with the environment and surfing community.

[00:03:25] In and out of the water. Joni Momo, welcome to the Swell Season Podcast. How are you? Thanks, Tyler. Yeah, thank you. Doing great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Uh, Jessica gonna say, I am a cis, white, straight male, and I thought this might be appropriate to mention for listeners as I am the middle-aged guy out there that I talked about in the intro.

[00:03:52] Um, I wanted to, uh, invite you on because I thought you can give us a much better [00:04:00] conversation and meaning, because from everything that I've seen out in surf media, it's been rather disappointing, uh, to see the. Non attempts, to be honest, to engage, uh, the LGBTQ uh, LGBT plus, uh, Q community. Sorry, I, uh, I'll fix that in the post.

[00:04:25] I'm nervous, you know, cause, cause I want to do it right? Like, I want this to be a meaningful conversation and not just a bunch of people shooting from the hip with no knowledge, no prior experience, or no friends or people that they know who are of the, of the, of the community. So I was hoping that we could have you on.

[00:04:47] So thank you very much. Thanks for happiness. Um, so I think I want to, I want to ask like your initial reactions when you saw the W S L, uh, post [00:05:00] this. And then I wanted to hear what you thought of the Bethany's stance and, and what had ensued after.

[00:05:10] Joanie: The first thing I did was call Momo.

[00:05:14] momo: I think I sent it to you. You had, you didn't have any idea. I was off Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. I saw some friends posting anti Bethany posts and I was like, what? Let's go. What happened? So like, obviously like the WSL thing, like completely was like quiet. Like I didn't, I didn't even like see the policy at any point.

[00:05:37] I just like did some like slew thing and saw Bethany's post and was just like, oh, just, yeah. I was like, oh, okay, so here we are. Here we go. And like, I don't, like, I was just, I don't know even know if angry, but just like kind of shocked. I mean angry [00:06:00] and shocked, but it's, it is so little to do with these people.

[00:06:07] These topics and like, it's, it's just like outrageous. Honestly, I don't know. It, it left me speechless and I was just like, for a while, just like, okay. And like also seeing like all the comments, just being like, all right, like not a single person here, like has maybe ever interacted with a trans person or like, knows of queer community.

[00:06:29] So it's like, how are you guys reacting so strongly to this when you don't even know anyone who's like, of this exp like a trans person, you know? Like, I don't know. Yeah.

[00:06:46] Tyler: It, it feels, it feels ridiculous, right? Like, uh, let, let's, let's be honest, Bethany has more, uh, the odds are more likely for her other arm to be bitten off by a tiger shark [00:07:00] than it is for her to be competing against a trans surfer in a W S L C T event.

[00:07:06] You know, it, it just feels, um, like just this weird outrage at something that doesn't really have an effect on them, uh, at all. And, you know, and then if they were to have that competition, then it's, then you can have maybe a little bit more of a conversation about it. But it, it feels rather silly almost, you know, you're like, really, this is what, what we're all getting up in arms about?

[00:07:36] Not the fact that there's less equality on the WSL than, than, you know, there's, there's less women on tour than there are men that the women get put out in the worst conditions compared to the men and, you know, all these other things that they could be more focused on and more, uh, have more energy towards.

[00:07:58] But this is, [00:08:00] this is the outrage, unfortunately, and the, the culture wars that we kind of live in. It feels like. Yeah,

[00:08:07] Catherine: totally. Can I also say like, I think it's like what Momo was saying earlier about not seeing the WSL being so forthcoming in this policy change, right? Mm-hmm. Like I don't think actually people found out through WSL platforms or social media from the wsl, they found out through second parties.

[00:08:27] Yeah. Um, I can't remember. I think it was the inertia. Yeah. Who actually posted it. And while it's like, I'm, I guess like already while I'm talking about this, I'm debating in my mind is it worse that they didn't take the initiative to just own this and also like create a better environment or space or platform.

[00:08:47] Right? Because like the way that they did it, this left a lot of room for people to come out and speculate and toss around all this false information. So what's like, I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Like, is this the [00:09:00] Wsls also their oversight? To some degree, um, or is it just like any other policy and they rolled it out and they didn't make a big deal of it?

[00:09:09] Is this consistent to what they've done in the past? I'm curious.

[00:09:14] Joanie: I don't really know anything about the w when, like when I was, when I was growing up, it was the as p like I don't, yeah. I don't really, yeah. Um, it's not really my like, wheelhouse in particular. What I'll say is the policy itself is borrowed from the Olympic Commission mm-hmm.

[00:09:31] Policy. And then the WSL took it from the International Surfing Association. So they're really just covering, they're just covering themselves, kind of trying to get ahead of things because of Sasha, Jane Loon kind of competing. Yeah. Um, she reentered competition last year after meeting the, after meeting the isa, um, policy like qualifications and Yeah.

[00:09:54] And you know, now she's like competing regularly in on touring. Could

[00:09:58] Tyler: you, uh, for our listeners, explain who [00:10:00] Sasha Jane Loon is? Yeah,

[00:10:02] Joanie: Sasha Jane Loon is a long border, a trans woman, um, who was competing before she transitioned. Um, and was kind of like, what do you say? Um, I don't wanna speak out of turn. I wasn't particularly following, um, her career closely, but from, from kind of what I can gather as like a regionally very talented surfer, sort of like winning regional competitions, um, before transition and, you know, works a day job is not like a professional surfer.

[00:10:36] Right. Um, and then transitions does her whole thing, reenters competition, um, competing against women, uh, in the women's division. And yeah, she sort of was in a couple of competitions that had like an international deal, um, like international surfers were there and she like wasn't doing very well and um, you know, she was [00:11:00] surfing kind of.

[00:11:01] As her abilities are. Um, and then she entered like sort of like the state championships kind of thing. Yeah. Um, and won that. Um, which sh Yeah, so that's basically what happened. Um, one of the things that I think, uh, and then, um, when that got announced, there was like the whole, that was kind of like the start of like, for, I think for so long, like trans people in surfing have been quiet.

[00:11:27] Yeah. And like mostly just trying to pass or, or just, you know, whatever. And, um, surfers like, you can't even talk about like gay people in surfing. Like they don't know what, they don't know what trans people are even really. Um, so anyway, that was like a big, she won that contest. That was a big mess. And what I think got missed, um, and what we, we'd been, we've been talking, um, you know, a lot amongst ourselves.

[00:11:50] Yeah. And I think Kyla Langan, um, pointed out, or maybe it was Nick, Nick Bsba, um, that. The, the re like [00:12:00] the Australian Surf Association, like really did a lot of education before that contest Yeah. To be like other competitors. Like here's the, here's the deal, this is what a trans woman is like, this is what she had to do to be able to compete in terms of like levels, hormone levels and, and all of that stuff.

[00:12:14] Um, and jumping through all the, the legal, the legal hoops of like name change and, and everything. Um, and it's, yeah, it's, no, it's no walk in the park. It's, it's a bureaucratic nightmare to get all that done. Um, and it takes years. So the, the girls at the contest were, you know, I, from what I, from what I heard anecdotally, like, yeah, it was totally fine, yeah.

[00:12:40] Until the announcement got made. And then, then the media had a mess. But that's kind of Sasha and she's been, um, she's kind of taken to her platform to um, you know, be like a very, like, yeah. Out outspoken and out trans woman who's competing and surfing. I,

[00:12:56] Tyler: um, I reached out to the WSL and [00:13:00] emailed them a bunch of questions ahead of time.

[00:13:02] Cause I wanted to have the correct facts on this. Uh, I reached out to Dave Proin. I still haven't heard back yet, so, but my questions to them were, uh, were all the surfers engaged in a conversation about trans inclusion policy before it was announced? Was there literature of any sort of information about trans people and the effects one might experience going through transition and its effects on surfers, bodies and strengths ever distributed?

[00:13:30] Was this policy implemented because a Olympic guidelines b fairness to trans people or see both? Um, you know, and how long were these discussions about the policy had within the organiz? Was there an attempt to educate surfers about testosterone levels and all these other, other things, you know, that, that get very technical?

[00:13:53] Um, you know, these are questions I wanted to know because it feels like to [00:14:00] me, uh, the Surfing Australia had done its diligence and had reached out to all the surfers. I had talked to some of, uh, female competitors who, who competed against Sasha and they said that they did a wonderful outreach, whereas the wsl it, it, I get the feeling this was kind of half-assed.

[00:14:22] Uh, if you go onto the WSL website and try to click on the trans policy, it goes to a dead page. Like there's a press release, but then when you, there's a link to the ISA trans policy, it goes to a dead page. Mm-hmm. Um, so there's really nothing. That seems like they're supporting it properly. It feels like they're, they're going through the hoops for the Olympics, basically the I o c and it, it doesn't feel like they're really trying to really engage about equity, e equality in surfing.

[00:14:57] That's, that seems very [00:15:00] clear, uh, and seems rather disappointing. And it seemed like a moment that they could have used as a great platform to educate surfers and, and get them on board and actually help create equality. And instead it feels like they've done more harm than good, potentially. I don't know.

[00:15:20] Like, it just feels like I'm not, I'm not trans. I, I am not from the queer community, but I get enraged reading the comments. I get so upset and heartbroken, uh, seeing. Names that I'm familiar with, surf names and all of that sort of stuff. And it's heartbreaking to see the lack of empathy and compassion that these people have.

[00:15:46] And, uh, you know, I can't imagine how you might feel about it because of this, because it's like, I'm, I'm upset. I feel like I'm like really angry about it. And I've like, I'm not gonna [00:16:00]comment though because I'm gonna comment because that is not a place for a dialogue, I think, or a conversation. Um, so yeah, uh, that to me, that, that, that's, at least I, I've done a little bit of the diligence beforehand, trying to get information and, and it doesn't feel like, um, the WSL really has a quality in mind.

[00:16:21] Um, from, from what it, what it

[00:16:23] Joanie: appears. Definitely not. I don't know if you had a chance to read the policy at all before, like read through it. Yeah. Um. But it hasn't, I mean, it's not like a transgender inclusion policy. Yeah. It is like a policing, policing women's body policy. Yeah. Like what is it? You know, like, it, there's, there's nothing about trans-masculine people in there.

[00:16:43] No, there's not. And you can hear it in like, Bethany is like, uh, the way she structured her sentence, it was like she said, male bodied individuals, also known as transgender athletes, as if you can't be, so like,

[00:16:55] Tyler: it's just like, as think you're not a woman, like, you know, like that's the thing. You know? Or, or,

[00:16:59] Joanie: [00:17:00] and also that like, there's, uh, a bunch of different like, ways to be trans, right?

[00:17:04] Yeah. Like she's, she's just, and you just, yeah. Um, yeah. You just get the sense that like, uh, she's picturing like Robin Williams in a dress or something. Yeah. Um, when she's like, when she's like saying that, and that, that's kind of, that's kind of the, the vibe is like, yeah. Actually, I, I don't think I have anything to say after that.

[00:17:26] momo: Yeah. Um. I mean, just going back to like the whole, I mean my, I had like no thoughts just because of like, I wanted to, I remember when I saw the Bethany thing and everything on social media. I like, I wanted to say something, but I was just like, what, what could I even say right now? Like, there is such a huge lack of education that like, if I even say one thing, I'm gonna have to explain like six other things.

[00:17:58] Just like the

[00:17:58] Joanie: whole frame of reference is [00:18:00] nonsense. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:00] momo: Yeah, exactly. And it's just like literally just like straight, flat out, like transphobia and misogyny. Mm-hmm. Like, so it's just like wrapped up so easily, like right there. And it's like, how, how do you even engage in a conversation with these people without.

[00:18:17] Just being like, okay, when you said this, this was that. And then that reference was this. And like, it just like, like everything they said was just nonsense. It's like hard to even like engage. I mean the

[00:18:27] Catherine: narratives that were like circulating online by Bethany herself and other people who were commented were, you had to do so many mental black back flips to create these like hypothetical scenarios in which there was a negative impact of having trans bodies and surfing.

[00:18:46] Right? Yeah. Like you're talking about language that also was classist. Mm-hmm. That was sort of xenophobic, um, talking about quote unquote poverty stricken countries. Yes. And surfers coming from there who were, will [00:19:00] transition to fem bodies. To make money. Yeah, yeah. Um, which I don't know. I mean, the great irony of it is like for a, uh, a space that has suffered so like, or that has struggled so much to find equity and pay for women, cis women's surfers alone to, to sort of like sell a narrative that somebody would try to compete as a, as a female surfer to make money when we know that that's not how female pro surfers have been living is actually hilarious.

[00:19:35] It's comical. Um, which I think is, yeah, I mean, that's just the perfect example of like how difficult it is to make minds meet in this space. And then, like what you were saying Tyler earlier, like the danger of how it was cultivated by players like the W S L in this space, to not create an educated, knowledgeable platform and to allow people to sort of go ham on all of this [00:20:00] misinformation and like, I think f from my perspective, like after, you know, this happened and like engaging in conversation with cis people who might not be in the queer community at all.

[00:20:12] Like people who were maybe on the fence or felt like they didn't have the information to have a really well formed opinion on this. Like it's so dangerous because then they're validated the argument that trans bodies, especially for female surfers, are dangerous. Yeah. Like that's validated. Like I kept hearing from like male surfers, cis male surfers, like, oh, well this pro female surfer agrees, so therefore, That's valid.

[00:20:42] Then this argument's, that's such a dangerous wait.

[00:20:44] momo: Also, like all thing to frame all, sorry. All the SISs, all the straight dudes who are suddenly feminist.

[00:20:50] Tyler: I, I wanted to, I wanted to point that out. I really wanted to point that out. I was, I was thinking that like all of, all of this misogyny [00:21:00] is, this is disguised in feminism.

[00:21:02] You know, I, I feel like Bethany Hamilton almost makes a misogynistic, uh, point she does by saying that women are, by saying that women are protection and no, we need your protection and that women are inferior to men when it comes to surfing and the physicalities, which I strongly disagree with. Yep. I mean, if you, I think what a lot of people seem to forget, and this is more of a historical, uh, context, first, women have never been, uh, encouraged to really surf.

[00:21:37] Uh, throughout modern surfing history, it's never truly been, uh, encouraged. They've never had the funding, they've never had the support. You have some cases, you know, where you could look at like the Benson sisters or a couple other people who were encouraged by their parents, but they never had the money, they never had the group support.

[00:21:58] Um, so of course there's [00:22:00] gonna be a com, there's gonna be a, um, performance lag, but also women also don't have as large of a talent pool to draw from as, as the men have had over the last 60, 70, 80 years, whatnot. You know, so when you think about it, Oh yeah, of course women aren't gonna be as, uh, as high performance as men because there just hasn't been as much support.

[00:22:26] There hasn't been the money, there hasn't been the organization, there hasn't been, um, you know, everything from the comradery and grouping to, uh, you know, to the talent pool in itself, you know, has been very small. So I would argue in like 20, 30 years we could potentially, and I mean honestly, this next generation of female surfers, we could see that performance gap shrink even more and more.

[00:22:54] And the other thing is I look at like someone like Jackson Dorian, who's a kid who [00:23:00] surfs better than half the guys on the men's tour, you know, and he's not lacking any physical, uh, physical ability. He. Under a hundred pounds and doesn't have full, full use of all the muscles and everything that that's, he has probably just going through puberty right now.

[00:23:18] So, and I look at like other surf kid surfers who I see are like 10 years old who surf better than most grown men and are doing maneuvers and other things of that nature. So I don't think there's a real, in surfing particularly, I don't think there's a real physical limitation, uh, to, to a female body or even a, you know, or, or, or, or trans, you know, or any of that.

[00:23:41] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:42] Joanie: Totally. Yeah. I mean the, it's like all the pro surfers where many of the pro, I shouldn't say all, many pro surfers are like homeschool. They're just, they surf all the time. It's like you, like you even, like I, I did some competition in high school. Yeah. And it was like, the girls who surf all the time surf better than [00:24:00] anybody, you know?

[00:24:00] It's like, it's just, it's time in the water. It's trips, it's. It's money, it's access to the beach, it's support, it's all those things. I also, there's this, um, I also want to, I guess point, point out, like in the, if you look at like footage of old surfing, it's like, okay, yeah. You know, men have like a more like masculine presentation on the wave, which obviously like a patriarchal society is kind of into.

[00:24:25] Mm-hmm. But technically speaking, like in the sixties and seventies and maybe fifties, I don't know if I've seen that much footage from the fifties. Like, women are not like worse. They're not like worse surfers. And, and you see like the, the real like split, like the achievement gap comes. After the 1970s when boards got smaller, um, Deion made that point.

[00:24:46] And also like windsurfing. Professionalized. Yeah. Um, and the money started pouring in. All of a sudden there's money to be made and you know, it's like, oh, the girls over here, like in their like little onshore whatever. And like that, that sort of start [00:25:00] that, that put things on, on tracks where we got, kind of where we are today.

[00:25:05] And, you know, surfers from the, like, there's this quote in this Matt War shot article from like 19 90, 30 year old article, sexism

[00:25:12] Tyler: Sucks. Mm-hmm. Article.

[00:25:14] Joanie: Yeah. Debbie, Debbie Beem talking about like how different things are in 1993 than they were. In the seventies when, when she was surfing and competing. Um, yeah, just within her lifetime.

[00:25:24] And,

[00:25:25] Tyler: and the thing is also at that time point, the beginning of professional surfing, the money pool was tight. It was small, and the men were running the show for the most part. So of course, where's that money gonna be allocated? You know, they're gonna allocate it to the men. Uh, you know, so there's, there is that whole conversation right there, um, that I think has, has not been really, uh, talked about or investigated, uh, very well.

[00:25:56] I, I thought I wanted to, to [00:26:00] discuss though, like, do, do, do you think that, um, the debate around the balance? I, I feel like I read this really interesting article in bbc, um, and they talk about the debate centering around the balance of inclusion. Sporting fairness and safety in women's sports. Essentially whether trans women can compete in female categories without their biological sex, giving them an unfair advantage or presenting a threat of injury in other competitions.

[00:26:30] I guess we're talking about boxing there, maybe, but do you, do you, do you feel that there is any sort of physical advantage, I know we just kind of talked about this, but do you feel that, that the, that a trans, trans female surfer would have any sort of physical advantage over the women's surfers?

[00:26:57] I think

[00:26:58] Joanie: it depends a little bit [00:27:00] in on the type of surfing that's happening. There's, um, I mean the, the, the studies are pretty small, but the main advantage. Trans women seem to, to carry over through transition is like lung, lung capacity. Um, so I think maybe if you're like a big wave surfer, yeah, maybe that's helpful there.

[00:27:25] The biggest advantage is like, uh, ac depending on when you transitioned and, and what kind of privileges you enjoyed before you transitioned. Like you had access that like, and support Yeah. Cultural and social support that girls didn't have. And I do think that's, you know, that's something that, um, if you're talking about like the average lineup should be considered, but when you're talking about pro surfing, when you're talking about the WSL and the top, you know, whatever, 66 surfers in the world, like that's, they all had that.

[00:27:53] Yeah. There's no, there's no, like, that's not an issue

[00:27:57] Tyler: there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, [00:28:00] it, it, it's a very interesting point that you bring up. Like, yeah, if, if a, if a, if someone transitions at an older age, but they had all the benefits, Of men in our society basically. Also, because it's not just in surfing, but also just how you sometimes maybe even carry yourself, your attitude of yourself even.

[00:28:22] I mean, that's natural. That's,

[00:28:23] Joanie: I, I also wanna, I also wanna push, I also wanna push back a little bit like, okay, you, the, the privileges, the, the sort of like quote unquote male privilege that, that you enjoy is about access, right? Mm-hmm. And it's about kind of, um, your ability to go do things, but, um,

[00:28:41] you know, you, like, what do I say? What do I say here? Like, there's, um, the idea that like, you know, like, uh, someone who will later transition was carrying herself, like Yeah. In a, as like a, you know, in a very, like, that's not, no. Like, if, if you ask like, do trans women have [00:29:00] trans women enjoyed male privilege answers?

[00:29:01] Like, sort of mm-hmm. Because also the whole time, like, okay, maybe you're hanging out with, or I can speak from a per, I can speak from a personal experience, like I spent a. Um, a bunch of, a bunch of a couple summers in high school, like just hanging around shapers and surf older surfers and, and very much like boys club.

[00:29:19] And I was very, you know, just with these like older men kind of every day and like the, the sensation that I was like, absolutely not one of them Yeah. Was acute. Mm-hmm. Um, the, like, I, I barely, I barely spoke. Yeah. Like, I just kind of hung out. Because you're like sort of terrified that if you say like, you sort of like know deep down that like, this is not like that.

[00:29:45] If you say something like they might catch on. You're sort of like, I think the, the pre-transition, uh, or the pre like out kind of experience is one of like deep paranoia. Mm. Yeah. That someone will catch on because you, you know, you feel that something's like [00:30:00] different or wrong with you. There's, there's, you don't know what it is exactly, but there's a sense that if you, if you reveal too much, like you'll be found out.

[00:30:08] Um, even if you don't have the word like trans kind of floating in the front of your head Yeah. That, that pervasive kind of like low grade paranoia seems to be pretty common among trans experiences. So, um, yeah. It's, you know, it's definitely a kind of, sort of thing. Mm-hmm. But I think in, in terms of surfing, it's like, you know, in the lineup, like the older guy is gonna be like, gonna tend to be nicer to you Yeah.

[00:30:30] Than, you know, he would to like maybe a 10 year old girl. I don't know. And that also might cha have changed a bit. Yeah.

[00:30:36] Tyler: Yeah. I mean I think that's, I mean, who knows, you know, I mean, and we will be right back and now back to our show. It, it's interesting cuz like I, I see I've, I won I think. What do you think about the, the concept that, that Bethany throws out and that all these [00:31:00] surfers have thrown out that there should be a separate division for trans athletes?

[00:31:05] It, it seems. So ridiculous to me. I don't know. Like I, I was reading, you know, like there's not enough surfers to have, you know, there's not enough trans surfers to have your own division. And then it's still like, I think there's an interesting thing about being able to balance fairness and inclusion, right?

[00:31:28] Mm-hmm. And you're never gonna get a hundred percent in, in one or the other, right? Mm-hmm. Like it's, and it's never ever gonna be fair, is it like, Jackson Dorian is not fair competing against other kids his age because that kid had access to everything, right? He had access to all the boards, and his dad's a professional surfer, and he gets to surf good waves all the time.

[00:31:54] We all decide what's fair, right? Mm-hmm. Like it's all, we, we, we, we can [00:32:00]create what is fair and what is not fair. Mm-hmm. And so why can't we just make this exception? Because we make all these other exceptions. Right. It it, that's what it feels like to me.

[00:32:11] momo: Totally. Yeah. I feel like that's something that we came back to also when we were talking about like Right.

[00:32:16] The discussion of like a third division. Mm-hmm. Which again, there is this, it's crazy. This like fear. It's an, it's a literal fear that you see in the comment sections. Mm-hmm. And it's like, what, where is it coming from? Because you've never interact, you don't see there aren't enough trans surfers. In the water in the world that are like, at that level to be presenting a threat to you.

[00:32:40] And like I,

[00:32:44] Tyler: I just, there, there was an interesting, um, study. Um, you know, the best example I, I read this, like the, there was a population study to look at. Um, you know, if you look at like NCAA sports, there are more than [00:33:00] 200,000 women competing every year in the ncaa. Mm-hmm. Trans women make up about 0.5 to 1% of the population.

[00:33:08] Mm-hmm. So we should be seeing around, they said about a thousand to 2000 trans women every year competing. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the NCAA 11 years ago allowed, you know, this is like, you know, 2010 almost allowed trans women to compete and based on hormone therapy, we should be seen like one to 2000 every year.

[00:33:27] But we're not, you know, trans women are never gonna take over professional surfing. You know, it just, It's just statistically, rather, rather, you know, uh, difficult for that to happen. You may see one or two, but it's never gonna be like women are gonna be boxed out of their own sport. And not, not to say that first, I wanna say they are, they are all women by the way.

[00:33:53] I just wanna also mention that. Yeah. We have to get that out of our heads that it's, that there's a [00:34:00] differentiation.

[00:34:00] Catherine: Absolutely. I think like, like I was an athlete in college, it was certainly, that's certainly not professional athletics by any means, um, as a cis woman. Mm-hmm. And I feel like, I mean, I was there in the era that that was a policy for the NCAA for trans as athletes to be able to participate.

[00:34:19] And I can't say that that was even a topic of conversation at the time that I was an athlete because there was so little visibility, or there was so. Few athletes that were at least out, if anything. Yeah. Um, and that also being said, like, and this ties back into the conversation surrounding like fairness, which is like a word that I really struggle with.

[00:34:41] Um, especially because I feel like, um, like Joanie and Momo and yourself, Tyler, like we care about equity Yeah. In this space. And there's two parts of this space we're talking about professional competition, and then we also have a part of surfing that's [00:35:00] recreational. This is for fun, this is for happiness.

[00:35:02] And so like, I think my struggle is, is like for us to disseminate like the notion of fairness and like what you said Tyler, like fairness, even outside of the gender issue, is already something that we, is a moving target that we can't achieve. There's no such thing as a perfectly level playing field and many athletes who are, you know, outside of like recreational and in professional or competing at these high stakes environments, like they are oftentimes already outliers.

[00:35:32] Yeah. Either culturally through resources, through like physical, whatever it is. It's not even important to even like dive into that because you're never going to untangle that. So if we acknowledge that, Advantages are not necessarily the core of the issue here, then, then we can look at like equity being the issue and like about, um, um, in the notion that like when people and like respect for [00:36:00] other people.

[00:36:00] So like when someone is saying like, I am a woman, and to like sit down and to parse out what makes them a woman, which includes hormone testing and all of these things we are already, or like to create a third category for transgender folks, we are already negating that. And then it becomes less of a question of fairness in my eyes, which is already to, I don't think we can weed through that to a question of like, what kind of like ethical framework or moral framework do we want to operate?

[00:36:28] And like, and I just, for me at least I'm speaking for myself personally, and I think like that's the most productive lens to look at this through. Like, if people identify with a certain gender, then why can't you respect that? Mm-hmm. Ultimately that's the end game question. To me.

[00:36:48] Tyler: It, it feels like, um, it fe I just think also, if you think about it, Bethany still has to compete in the water every day.

[00:36:58] She wants to get waves. [00:37:00] She competes against men at pipe to get waves. All of us have to compete against each other. There's no, you know, there's no division in when we go recreational surfing and we all kind of want our waves. So I feel like it's, um, you know, while in competitive surfing or quote unquote competitive surfing is, you know, her, her whole thing.

[00:37:23] But surfing is so much broader than that, right. And it's so much bigger and so much more, um, you know, about just being out in the water. And I feel like, well, she still has to compete there too, so it's, you never hear her complaint about that, you know, do you? Mm-hmm. You don't hear about her complain.

[00:37:42] About getting wave at chopu or pipeline either. Mm-hmm. And having to compete against men for that, you know? So I think that's also something to consider.

[00:37:51] Joanie: Um, I just wanna, yeah, I just wanna just, just quickly about the, about the sort of like trans only division thing. Yeah. Obviously this is, that's like a, a deeply [00:38:00] transphobic position to have, right?

[00:38:02] The idea that like, um, trans people are fundamentally different. The other thing that I think is funny is, I funny, like, we make jokes to like, you know, of course cope with humor. It's actually just, uh, ridiculous and deeply upsetting if we like, think about it. Too hard for too long. But, um, when people suggest that, I'm always like, that sounds, that sounds fun.

[00:38:24] No one who suggests that is, I imagine they're imagining, I imagine that they're picturing like just trans women in the water together. Just like me and all my trans fans can be like, that sounds amazing. Like, let's, let's do it. Let's do it. But I want went

[00:38:39] Tyler: to Benny's Club. When's event? Benny's Club competition.

[00:38:42] Come on. Benny's

[00:38:43] Joanie: Club Surf Off. Oh yeah. Hopefully June with Queer Surf in Pacifica. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Which will have open divisions, queer surfers only competing, um, at various levels of, um, aptitude. But yeah, it should be a good time. Uh, it's That's awesome. [00:39:00] Queer judges. It's collective judging and it's queer surfers only and it's, yeah.

[00:39:05] We're making, we're making it. Yeah. We're making it happen. Yeah. Like, that sounds

[00:39:08] Tyler: kind of awesome. All right. You know, give us pipeline for a couple hours alone, you know? Yeah. Or, or trestles without anyone now. Yeah. W s l let's get another division going.

[00:39:26] It, it is, it, it is. It, it's amazing like how, uh, limited people seem to view, uh, human nature, uh, human, you know, like they just view it as a binary and, you know, there are multitudes of, of gender, you know, there's xx chromosome x, y chromosome even. There's all of that to consider. There's so many things that make up gender, you know, that, that's the thing that I always, [00:40:00]I'm like, why does it have to be either or?

[00:40:02] Why can't there be a spectrum of things?

[00:40:05] Joanie: And I mean, the idea of like, you know, binary gender is, this is documented. I'm sure someone listening is gonna be like, that's crazy, but just literally like can just go read about it. Like the strict binary gender is like a very strongly like white supremacist project that traveled around with colonialism.

[00:40:21] Like there's extensive documentation of. You know, quote unquote third gender is existing in like many indigenous communities. And, and also like, even like before the Industrial Revolution, um, which sort of like created like massive social upheaval and instability, like not very long ago, like the kind of a a, it wasn't called trans, but like, people were like doing that, like mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] A lot. Um, so it seems there's like, there's painting, you know, there's paintings, there's paintings that are like, you know, like depicting trans people. Um, there's written documentation and it's all like being [00:41:00] passed through like a Calvinist lens for the most part. So it's like hard to tell exactly what happened, but, um, yeah, very common across like the, the Pacific Islands and like, um, like in, in Southern California, like the Kumeyaay people, there's like documentation of, um, of things.

[00:41:15] So it's all like the. This is all kind of like new, for lack of a better word, gender is expansive. And I Momo brought up, asked rhetorically like, what are you scared? What are they scared of? You know this fear. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, but part of it seems to me there's like, they're confronting the reality that this thing that they've held to be a hard and fast rule all their life, the, that people have constantly told them is a defining characteristic of who they are.

[00:41:46] Mm-hmm. Is actually just maybe like a little bit made up and maybe like not actually that stable. Yeah. Which of course is terrifying mm-hmm. To face.

[00:41:54] Tyler: Yeah. For many people, you know, it's, that is an interesting thing like [00:42:00]moment you, you brought the fear and what, what is driving this, this fear. Right. I can, I guess if I were to try to understand Bethany Hamilton's position, um, you know, She is very religious.

[00:42:16] So there is that one aspect to it. Um, but the other is, um, you know, the women, like, like we have said, the women have not been paid very well. There is no equality, you know, there's really hasn't been that much equality in surfing, not just in com competition, but also, um, you know, from sponsorships. And so maybe she's afraid that her meal ticket is gonna be taken away, you know, that she might be afraid that, oh, well, there's only so much to go around.

[00:42:51] Sure. And it's a very interesting divide and conquer tactic, right? Like, it's like, let's, let's divide the women over this [00:43:00] and let's divide this because the men get a disproportionate amount of that money. Well, it's

[00:43:04] Catherine: really shortsighted, right? Yeah. Because at the end of the day, Trans people are not taking away a piece of the very this or the crumbs of the pie that you're already fighting over.

[00:43:16] Right. Like, that's not the point. Yeah. And like, this is really hard, I think, because when we have conversations surrounding trans bodies in sports or in like anything, I mean, arguably is surfing a sport, I dunno, but competitively, right. I think like, it's hard because I think this conversation itself also keeps going back to like, this is misogynistic, this is built on a framework of binary gender

[00:43:44] momo: entirely.

[00:43:44] Right? Yeah, exactly. Like she's afraid of men, women,

[00:43:47] Catherine: essentially. Yeah. And women are lesser than. Exactly. And then people who are trans women who, I mean, I, I hate like the language that she's using. Male bodied. Yeah. Like, interesting. Okay. But like [00:44:00] all, all of these things, it's hard because from like, you know, Before, like I feel like, and I've had this conversation with you and you Momo and Joni, like when we talk about policing trans bodies in these spaces, and like what Joni pointed out earlier, this is about policing women's bodies right.

[00:44:20] At its core. And, and I don't want to, I don't want like the movement for equity for cis women to piggy back off of the movement for equity for trans bodies in this space. But at the same time, like I don't, I think we're kind of like at this stalemate because we haven't been able to break down the problematic parks of this framework that are misogynistic towards cis women.

[00:44:45] And so like, it's really hard, I think for a lot of people to engage with the conversation surrounding trans people and surfing when they already. You know, this isn't, there isn't enough discussion surrounding women or change [00:45:00] for women if it's policy, if it's like access to resources or so on, so forth. I mean like this is prevalent in all spaces in sports and anything competitive that has a platform.

[00:45:12] And like, again, like, like what I was saying earlier, the notion that like these spaces can have such a massive influence into our day-to-day lives. It's because it's true like athletics and sports or anything that's like, um, that's being spectated. Mm-hmm. This is like a spectatorship that we're talking about watching competition surfing and how that like influences people.

[00:45:35] Like when we say in a space that it's okay to police trans bodies in sports, we are saying it's okay to police trans bodies. All across the board. Yeah. And that is the greater issue at hand. And then also again, police, women's bodies all across the board, not just, you know, in recreational spaces, in like our schools, in, [00:46:00] um, you know, in medical, like access all of these different things.

[00:46:04] Tyler: Healthcare access, didn't they in Florida? Aren't they trying to do that right now? Where they want to monitor, you know, periods of, of, of young girls and things of that nature. Like it's, it's, it's crazy. Like, you know, it, it's, it's wild. Joni, you are shaking your head. Oh,

[00:46:24] Joanie: you're, yeah. I mean, it's all, it's all so crazy.

[00:46:27] But I guess I just, the, um, I mean, you know, let's not forget that the WSL committed to pay equity back in 2014. Right. And they haven't, I mean, okay, maybe like the checks are the same size, but there's half as many women on tour. Like Exactly. That's not only

[00:46:44] Catherine: happened two years ago.

[00:46:47] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's definitely, uh, you, you, you can see the, the inequality there, you know, and only what they got to compete at Pipe, you know, in the [00:47:00] last two years, right.

[00:47:01] Like where they were put out at Home of Bay, cuz they were afraid the women couldn't surf pipeline, which is just kind of mind blowing when you think about it. Mm-hmm. It's so crazy, you know? Oh yeah. Only the men can surf these dangerous waves. But no, the women are too dainty to do that. That, and, and it's so crazy that none of these men who were speaking up, you know, for Bethany, Hamilton, this whole thing and talking about feminism, they never, you know, beforehand we're never championing this sort of stuff.

[00:47:34] And it's very rare that you see them champion it now even, and it's like, I, I, I just don't understand it. Yeah, it's,

[00:47:45] momo: I, it's just, it's so blatantly misogynistic. Sorry, I'm going crazy. Go, go crazy. It's just no, because like, this is the place to do it because like it's just viewing, it's like protecting women, right?

[00:47:57] The trans thing is protecting women because [00:48:00] transgender people in their eyes are just men dressing as women, so, okay. Then that also just completely cancels out a whole group of trans people, like, You know, female. Like, uh, what am I, trans

[00:48:17] Joanie: am trans, Hey, hey

[00:48:23] momo: trans people. And then everything else in between.

[00:48:26] Joanie: Right. Oops. Um,

[00:48:30] momo: but it just, it's so, it just like keeps perpetuating this like idea that men are predators. Yeah. And so if a man wants to be a woman, there's still a predator. They're doing that to get an advantage on cis woman. And its like not Yeah.

[00:48:44] Joanie: Continue. Sorry. Wait. And that's the whole thing with like the, the, all of the bathroom legislation, right?

[00:48:49] Yeah. Is this, is this, uh, is this like really like insane, just like queer people are like [00:49:00] evil perverts thing. Mm-hmm. You know, and we had like, this was like, this was like a, a big like homophobic trope, like Yeah. In the middle of the 20th century, right. That like, Gay men were perverts. Mm-hmm. And we're like trying to like, I don't know it.

[00:49:13] And obviously it's, it just, it's so crazy to even engage, like, to just be like, obviously a gay man is not interested in your daughter. Yeah. Like, it like, well that's not only

[00:49:27] Tyler: that you for fucking real Well, to be honest, it also to me says more about the person accusing and what their sick thoughts are.

[00:49:37] momo: Yeah. They're projecting, yeah. They're projecting their own thoughts. Yeah.

[00:49:40] Tyler: It's, that's kind of what it is, it feels like. And so even Bethany to project that she would say, she said, oh, well what's the stop? Someone from a impoverished country, quote unquote, she, what she said, uh, to dressing up and, and going [00:50:00] through transition just to have an edge in competitive surfing.

[00:50:03] It's. Oh, is that something you would do? Is that totally. Is that, is that, is that your mentality? More

[00:50:10] momo: is, but also that whole thought, and that's also brought up a lot, is so crazy because the trans experience is not one that anyone is like, I mean, it's, it's an amazing experience, but, but also it's incredibly hard, like why, like no one, no one like, would go out of their way to put themselves through this, like incredibly mentally tolling, like, I mean, it, I don't even know like how to, it's just like, like, why would anyone do that?

[00:50:45] Like,

[00:50:46] Tyler: right. Can you, can you, and this may be, we may not have, you know, this may be you maybe don't, don't wanna talk about this, but can we, can you lay out a little bit of that process so that listeners can [00:51:00] understand how difficult it is and how. It's not something to be done, you know, something, it's not done at a flip of a, you know, of a hat.

[00:51:09] Like, oh, I'm just gonna be this. It's, it's so much more. Yeah.

[00:51:13] Joanie: It's,

[00:51:14] momo: I think a big reason why a lot of people are maybe afraid of trans people is because of how sure and confident we are in ourselves and how much we know ourselves mm-hmm. Compared to so many other people. Mm-hmm. In this world. Mm-hmm. Like, because obviously a lot of cis people, like Exactly.

[00:51:34] Their whole identities are based off of their gender. That's, that's who they are. Like,

[00:51:40] Joanie: which is normative.

[00:51:41] momo: Exactly. And spoon fed. So to see someone who's outside of that and living their life happily, confidently, is a threat or is also just scary. Like they can't imagine a life like that for themselves.

[00:51:54] But to get to that place is incredibly hard. Like you have to go [00:52:00] against all. Of society essentially. And you can

[00:52:05] Joanie: carry on. You have to, you, there's like, there, there are these feelings that are sort of like around for your whole life. Yeah. And you have to make the active decision to take those feelings more seriously than then almost everything anyone has ever said to you.

[00:52:25] Mm-hmm. It take like, I don't know how, I don't know what mom's experience is. I came out, I mean, it feels like late, but it wasn't that late, but I was like, whatever in my like, early twenties and it was like the amount of like emotional work. Just, just to like give yourself the permission to think that it, that it might be possible for you to give yourself like liberty.

[00:52:47] Mm-hmm. Take took years. And then after that there's like all of the actual logistical stuff of like, you know how like. Finding access to, first of all, you don't need to transition to be a [00:53:00] trans person. There's lots of nont transitioning non-binary people. Yeah. Um, and that's, you know, that's definitely real, but that's also kind of not really what the WSL is talking about.

[00:53:09] Yeah. Like, you know, getting access to healthcare. Um, we live in New York, thank God, like it's so easy here, but in a lot of places you need to like, you know, convince a therapist who's probably cis and probably straight that you know, you have always known and can prove it. Mm-hmm. Have always known and can prove it that you are actually meant to be like, you know, a man or a woman and get them to write you a letter and then you go get hormones and then you, you know, administer hormones to yourself for years.

[00:53:47] Yeah. And then there's like sometimes surgical interventions. Then there's like all of the legal stuff to like get your like, Documents changed. Um, my, like, [00:54:00] uh, my friend, my friend is transitioning like as a, uh, as a teenager and like still lives at home and his mom is like, you know, it's like a part-time job.

[00:54:11] She's like going to court to like, you know, help, help with this stuff. And then you have to like learn how to do gender again. Yeah. In a way that makes you safe because, um, yeah. You know, you just, you have to learn how to, which, and this is like, honestly kind of like fun, but for like, for me, it's like kind of fun.

[00:54:33] It's like, oh, you have to like, learn how to dress again. You have to be like, you have to be like, you have to like, you know, face yourself and be like, oh, X, y, Z, and then mm-hmm. Um, be, I mean, in a way to get taken. Sorry. I, I guess just to finish the thought, it's like, yeah. Go. You don't do that just because it's like cute and fun, like you do it so you don't get like, you know, harassed on the subway or when you walk out of the house.

[00:54:50] Mm-hmm. Um, which still happens, obviously, like. I don't know. Mm-hmm. Multiple times a week for me. And this is New York City, like, it's not even a,

[00:54:58] momo: and [00:55:00] off of that, like, and we live in New York City. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So for so many other trans individuals, like it's actually survival. Like mm-hmm. I don't know what the number is, but the amount of trans women that have been killed across America, like mm-hmm.

[00:55:19] Joanie: Every

[00:55:19] momo: year. Yeah. Every year. It's just like, just for, just for being. Just for living. Like, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:26] Tyler: And it's, it's just like, not to mention suicide as well.

[00:55:32] momo: Exactly. Which is, yeah. I don't, I'm not even gonna get into everything that the US is doing right now.

[00:55:38] Joanie: Mm-hmm. Oh God. But bad week, but

[00:55:41] momo: yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:42] Yeah. And so you have all of those things plus society, like, plus like even getting to that point, which for you is like in your early twenties. We have other friends that have lived their entire lives. Mm-hmm. As like, sister people have had kids and [00:56:00] then have given themselves the freedom to actually express them, which is like heartbreaking that, you know, you can, I, like, I had like feelings of not being my gender when I was really young, I would say.

[00:56:15] And I never gave it that much for a while. I was just like, oh, I just like girls. Like, but like, I can distinctly remember like as a child in elementary school, like wishing every day that I could just wake up a boy. And like, I, I was like, I didn't have anyone to talk to. I didn't know anyone who's trans. I didn't, I didn't know what it meant.

[00:56:36] I felt so like crazy in my mind. Like I, why was I so abnormal? Mm-hmm. Like, why did I want those things? Mm-hmm. Why couldn't I just be like everyone else? Mm-hmm. And I think that's another thing that like, So many people have those thoughts and it's just not worth it for them to break that mm-hmm. To get to the other side.

[00:56:59] So [00:57:00] they just keep it in and they, they'll keep it in their entire lives. And that's like so sad to, like, I know from like my own experience and like, I came out as queer like pretty early on sometime in high school. And like from that point I feel like I was already living a more authentic version of myself as like the coming out as non-binary and then like wanting to start medically transitioning.

[00:57:24] Like for me, like I kind of always knew like, okay, this is where I want to get to. But for so many people, like that path is not clear. Mm-hmm. And you're just like stuck in this state of like, confusion and like, it's just so, it's just funny to me to see all these people commenting about how. You know, well, couldn't this dude just, you know, dress up as a woman or transition to do the, it's like, no, you're not.

[00:57:57] Joanie: Yeah. Like, yeah, you can't, you [00:58:00] can't fake it. Yeah. You can't fake it. There's like, I feel like when you slipped into like a little, like joking register earlier when you're like, oh, what am I like, but there's like, you know, when I, and like trans people are always like making jokes like that. Like it's all kind of like, nothing's like real or whatever.

[00:58:15] But one thing, one thing that I think about that gives me like a little smile is I'm like, oh, okay, so let's say it's this man, like, you know, doesn't know that he is trans transitions for like, you know, professional gain or whatever. I mean, then he's a what? Like, then he then, yeah, he's a woman. You can't, you can't like go back.

[00:58:35] Like there's no, like, there's no going back. And then that just really, yeah. And you, yeah. Yeah. And you also, you can't fake, you can't fake it. No. Like I, I living, uh, you, you just can't, you can't.

[00:58:47] Tyler: And we will be right back and now back to our show. Yeah. What, um, did you read the, um, the article on Beach Grit that was, [00:59:00] uh, written by the, the founder of To Write Love on her arm?

[00:59:03] Uh, uh, Jamie, um, I'm forgetting his last name, but he wrote a, a beautiful piece, um, basically saying, well, you know, if he's like, if I have to choose between making a, a group feel awful and potentially driving the, driving people to potentially commit suicide or feel awful about themselves, or if I have to include them in a sport, I'm gonna include them in a sport instead.

[00:59:32] I'd much rather include people than exclude them and drive them to, to feeling shame about themselves and shame about who they are, you know? And it was a, it was a really well-written piece, you know, and. It, it just shows like at the end of the day, it's just surfing, you know? Or it's just a sport, you know, it's not, you know, it's not, it, it, it means [01:00:00] so little, but means so much too, right?

[01:00:01] Like, it, it it for, for Bethany to have to compete against a, a potentially a trans woman in a surf contest, okay? She, maybe she doesn't win that one comp. Maybe she, she wins another or whatever. Um, it's like, but that trans person who got to compete in comp, that probably meant the world to compete against Bethany and probably meant more to that person than it did to Bethany.

[01:00:28] And so when I view those things, I'm always like, well, let's just make people feel happy then. Like, why would we want to deprive, why do we want to deprive people? Of feeling included, you know, that, that always feels so weird to me and feels so odd, like that we want gotta put people down and make 'em feel, uh, less than it, it doesn't make sense, you know?

[01:00:52] And, and on the top of that, let's say there is someone who is a very good surfer, who is [01:01:00] trans. It pushes the performance also, you know, in, and it maybe makes, makes them better surfers, everyone, you know. So I don't understand why you wouldn't want that. Also, if that is the case, which it's not really, you know, but that, that just seems silly to me.

[01:01:19] I don't know. It, it, it's real, really disappointing when I, when I hear, uh, you have these people who are just want to just make other people feel bad. I don't know. Um,

[01:01:34] Catherine: I think there's something that Joni said to me one time that I felt like was something important to bring up in this conversation, and I think it relates to things that we mentioned earlier, particularly like Momo, when we talk about identifying as trans mask or trans fem, or identifying as a trans woman or a trans man, especially in competitive, anything competitive, right?

[01:01:54] Like there's obviously like this notion, this fixation with trans women and the notion of having an [01:02:00] advantage, but no one talks about trans men and therefore with this same logic, the notion of having a disadvantage, right? And then like, again, the conversation about disadvantage advantage. And I just remember like Joni, you said to me one time, um, like this is also about a culture surrounding.

[01:02:18] Yeah. Like to, to have to sit here and to, and like, it's only a problem when there's an advantage, but not a problem when there's a quote unquote perceived disadvantage. Right? Like that winning is inherently what gives value to surfers or people in participating in competition. Like that's a cultural issue.

[01:02:38] Yeah. In my opinion. Right. As well. Like, I agreed with Joni when, when they brought up, I don't know, Joni, if you wanna expand on that at all. Um, if I gave you a good segue,

[01:02:50] Joanie: it's like, no, here,

[01:02:52] Tyler: it's on the platter. Yeah. It's on a platter. Jon, you say

[01:02:55] Joanie: something. I mean, it's Yeah, yeah. I call that, yeah, we call it like the right to win.

[01:02:59] You know, it's like, [01:03:00] do people, how do we like, um, create that and I don't know. I think it's, it's complicated when you start, when you get to the level of professional athletics because you know, actually like winning is how they make a living. Yeah. Um, and I, I want to, you know, I'm sensitive to that. I don't want to.

[01:03:18] That that's a real thing. Um, but culturally, yeah, I think we're, I think the idea that sports are about winning primarily Yeah. Is a bit diluted. Like, you know, you stick like, you know, kids like play soccer when they're five years old, big groups. And we've all decided that that's kind of like culturally important to us, and that is a hundred percent not about winning.

[01:03:41] Those kids are who's keeping score. Like nobody, like we understand intuitively that sports are about being in your body and, and moving and being social in some ways. Mm-hmm. And, um, interacting with, uh, a landscape and a field of play. Um, and yeah, the obsession, [01:04:00] the obsession with winning seems to really like be the, uh, I think we're doing ourselves a disservice.

[01:04:07] Like, let's talk, let's like really talk about what sports are about. Um, for me, like surfing's about interfacing with the ocean and being in it and like, Kind of liberating my being a body without organs. Yeah. Like liberating myself from who I have to be on land and trying out what it feels like to move, like without an idea of what good movement is.

[01:04:29] Mm-hmm. Or what it should look like. Like that's super important to me personally. And if, uh, we can tweak the conversation in a way that sort of acknowledges that and, and what's, that's what's important about trans inclusion and surfing for me, is sharing that I don't care. I mean, you know, I actually don't care about competition.

[01:04:50] I'm like, I don't, I don't need. But it,

[01:04:53] Tyler: but, but surfing is so, like, these sports are so much more than just winning, right? Like Yeah, it's about community. [01:05:00] Mm-hmm. It's about getting together with people. Mm-hmm. It's about, uh, social interaction. It's about, uh, physicality, you know, pushing your own performance limit and, and seeing what you can do.

[01:05:11] Mm-hmm.

[01:05:11] Joanie: Sorry, can I, can I, can I finish the please? Just, just to, just to, to finish the thought, like the, this discourse mm-hmm. The anti-trans, kind of like sentiment that is being exhumed right now and the, the policy that brought it about, and the way that the media has short sort of, uh, or social media.

[01:05:32] I'm not really sure, I guess, but the way that that conversation has been steered is actively getting in the way of sharing, surfing with other trans people, right. Right. Mm-hmm. It surfing is presenting itself to be a deeply hostile place. Mm-hmm. Out outside, you know, compe, compet, I think Kat said this, like the, the competitive part kind of signals what the culture is about and what it holds to be deer.

[01:05:56] And, and that's, that's what really bums, you know, bums [01:06:00] me out. It's,

[01:06:00] Tyler: it's, it's, it is, it's a total bummer because it, it's not what surfing's about, that's the whole thing. Competitive surfing is such a recent invention in professional surfing. You know, 1976, that's, that's the start. It's, it's surfing. Before surfing existed.

[01:06:20] Before that surfing existed way before that. You know, I mean, in Hawaiian culture, you know, it was there as something that everyone can do recreationally. There was competition as well, but there was also the recreational side of things. Mm-hmm. Um, surfing is so much more than that, but it, it, but all of the sports, you know, it's not always about winning.

[01:06:41] And I dunno if you read the news today, but in North Carolina, they, they proposed the bill to ban, um, You know, participation awards in, in children's sports. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:53] Joanie: That's insane.

[01:06:55] Tyler: That's why does it matter? It's just driving all, it's all about winning, you know? It's not about participating. And [01:07:00] I'm like, no, that's, it's about participating.

[01:07:02] That's, that's the key. And

[01:07:03] Catherine: to what both you, Tyler and what Joni was saying about signaling, like what we were saying earlier about how these spaces signal culturally mm-hmm. To us in general. Mm-hmm. And I think it's like, it's Joni's, right? People are making a living off of professional sports. Yeah. And so, you know, get your bag for sure.

[01:07:24] Like I understand to win is also maybe a paycheck for you. Mm-hmm. However, it's like. And just in sports in general, like the athletes that have stuck out to us, like MVPs, like all of this stuff. It has never just been about performance. It's been about character. Yeah. It's been about like, like what you're describing, how we behave around others, how we interface either with the natural environment or how we interface with people.

[01:07:51] Right. And, and so it's like we already acknowledge that winning isn't what makes a great athlete. And most athletes who win [01:08:00] mm-hmm. Typically are, I mean that's a lot. I don't know. There's some athletes out there who are, no one, not so great people, but Yes. But a lot of them are the ones who are, and even if we talk about cutting a paycheck, I mean like the reason, like we talk about how most athletes make a living in competitive sports.

[01:08:16] A lot of that is sponsorship. Yeah. A lot of that is like being spokespeople. A lot of that is finding ways to contribute to society other than the physical act of what it is that they excel at. And so it's kind of like, This notion that we exist in this like very like black and white framework of like mm-hmm.

[01:08:34] Athlete and being a good athlete is just performance. Like we know that that's not true. Yeah. And so, like, again, bringing about, I said this before and I think you echo this Tyler, and I hope everyone else does, which is like, this is about an ethical and moral framework. Like how who we are as people, like this issue is not about performance, it's not about winning.

[01:08:54] It's about who we are as a society and what our compass is in that regard, if that makes sense.

[01:08:59] Tyler: [01:09:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I wanted to, to, uh, end this conversation. Unfortunately our time is kind of up, but um, I thought, I don't know if you've read Leanne Kern's quote that was on. Uh, but I thought it was really, really nicely, well, word worded.

[01:09:20] Um, for many listeners who aren't familiarly and current is a, is a queer surfer, phenomenal surfer, um, you know, and her father is my hero as well. But, uh, but also he's a beautiful surfer who won in surfing, won in competition, but his best surfing happened outside of the competition, in my opinion. Um, on the search, that's the, the surfer to me.

[01:09:46] Um, but he wrote, um, I think feminism and transo transphobia can't coexist. Your video is harmful. It com a comforts, uninformed, people excluding and pointing the [01:10:00] finger at a minority with arguments that are rooted in misogyny. Sad to once again see a wave of transphobia in the commons. Trans surfers belong and should thrive.

[01:10:11] Trans women are women and trans men are men. Sports are about respect, inclusion, equity, talent, inspiration, and humanity. Leanne Kern and I thought that would be a nice way to kind of cap this, cuz that kind of encompasses everything we kind of talked about just now, I think. Yeah. Um, if our listeners want to get in touch with Benny's Club, where can they find you?

[01:10:40] Uh, on the spot?

[01:10:44] momo: Uh, Instagram, I guess we really, we are not active enough. Um Okay. We have a website, an Instagram and an email and I believe our Instagram handles Benny's dot Club Club. Well retake. [01:11:00] Okay. Our Instagram is Benny's dot Club. Our e uh, email is benny's dot surfing. Nope.

[01:11:10] Joanie: How about website?

[01:11:11] Benny's dot surf.club Yeah. Gmail

[01:11:13] momo: com. Yeah. And the web, our website is benny's club.com. So,

[01:11:17] Tyler: perfect. And do you have any, uh, upcoming meetups or, or, um, anything that you want to let listeners know or become aware of June 17th? Besides the Battle, battle? All of Benny's surf competition. I was kidding.

[01:11:34] Joanie: No, no battle.

[01:11:35] It's all, it's all love. It's all love. I know joke's, all love and positivity, but yeah, June 17th, Pacifica, California with Queer Surf. It's gonna be fun and cute.

[01:11:48] Tyler: Awesome. Well, I, I really appreciate you coming on and, and discussing this and hopefully, uh, we could shed a bit more nuance and, and light onto this [01:12:00] subject and, and our listeners, um, can get a bit of better grasp on what this conversation really is about.

[01:12:07] And. Uh, Kat, I really appreciate you coming on as well.

[01:12:12] Catherine: No, thank you for having me. Thank you NoMo

[01:12:15] Tyler: and Joan. Awesome. And, uh, just want to thank Joe here, our engineer for uh, hanging, hanging tight here and uh, keeping us sounding good. Uh, swell season. You can follow us 12 season surf, uh, radio on Instagram and you can go to our website www.swellseasonsurf.com.

[01:12:37]And, uh, yeah, just wanted to say thank you to Rockefeller Center in the newsstand studio for hosting us, and uh, we will check you all down the line soon.[01:13:00][01:14:00]