[00:00:00] Tyler: The Swell Seasoned podcast is recorded by the new Stan Studio, ed Rockfeller Center in the heart of Manhattan, and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.[00:01:00]

[00:01:07] Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer on December 14th, 2022, images of surfers in the Rockaways trying to help push a juvenile sperm whale back into the water, made the rounds on social media, and eventually the news. This would be the beginning. Of what is being called an unusual mortality event for this winter, for whales along the East Coast in all around 23 whales have washed ashore along the East coast.

[00:01:42] Since December, there has been much speculation as to what is causing these deaths. Everything from container ships to wind farms have been thrown around. We wanted to bring on the show to discuss these whale passings and get a better understanding as to what is happening to the whale [00:02:00] population along the East coast.

[00:02:02] Our guest today is Andrew Lewis. He's been covering the story for New Jersey Spotlight News and is a writer for the New York Times Magazine. Andrew was a former editor at Surfing Magazine, rest in Peace and has written for numerous publications over the. And wrote a book called The Drowning of Money Island, a story about the community left behind in the wake of a devastating hurricane.

[00:02:28] His writing tends to explore stories that inhabit the narrow corners where water and humans collide. Andrew is our guest, and I'm excited to welcome him to the show. Andrew, welcome to Swell Season. Thanks,

[00:02:42] Andrew: Tyler. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:43] Tyler: I wanted to bring you on because I, you know, one, we, we've, we've known each other for years and, and it was nice to, to reunite with you here, but also, um, I wanted to bring you on cause I saw you had written, uh, for New Jersey Spotlight News, uh, an article in a very [00:03:00] thorough way covering the whale deaths that have been washing ashore.

[00:03:04] This year particularly, it feels like it's happening a lot more. And it's also been really, um, present in surfer's lives. I feel like particularly along the northeast here, we've seen everyone from like Ryan Mack, who's a photographer doing drone footage of some of the whales, Washington Shore too. The incident that I mentioned at the beginning.

[00:03:28] Uh, the surfers trying to help that sperm whale back into the water and, and in Long Beach and Lido Beach, we've seen it. So I was hoping you could come on here and help clarify some of the, some of the things that have been happening, cuz there's a lot of misinformation that's been going around and there's particularly, uh, connecting it to wind farms.

[00:03:50] And I don't want to minimize what impact the wind farms could have. I don't want to poo PPO it, you know, but I also feel like there needs to be more. [00:04:00] Context that's going on, cuz there's a lot more, a lot more confluence of events that have been happening. Um, so I wanted to first ask like, how many whales to your knowledge now have, have died and washed, uh, onshore this winter along the East

[00:04:14] Andrew: coast?

[00:04:15] Uh, it, it depends on, um, if you, when you look at it, cause a lot of the, a lot of people are starting with that December event Yeah. Here in, in New York. Um, but you're right, it's, it's in the twenties now, uh, basically between New York and New Jersey. It's something like, uh, I think 14 in New Jersey alone. Um, and that's, there's other whales that have washed up besides humpbacks, but it's mainly humpbacks.

[00:04:42] Tyler: Humpback. It's, uh, uh, what is it? Uh,

[00:04:45] Andrew: right. Uh, whales. No right whales. No. No Right whales yet. Pygmy sperm whale just washed up in Ocean City, which is very close to where I live in South Jersey, uh, just on Friday, but it was very decomposed, so it had been dead for a while. [00:05:00] Um, I think there was another juvenile pygmy sperm whale mm-hmm.

[00:05:03] That washed up, uh, in, in Jersey as well, um, very early on. But mainly again, it's, it's, it's been humpbacks and really the, the, the intense, um, part of it all was in January through February. It's kind of tapered off in the last, you know, few weeks.

[00:05:25] Tyler: It feels like it, it tends to happen in, in, and they've been counting this since like 2016,

[00:05:32] I

[00:05:32] Andrew: think.

[00:05:33] A little longer. Longer, little longer than that. Um, they, they can go back with pretty good accuracy to about 2010. Mm-hmm. But the. The thing that you're referring to and what you talked about in the intro is this unusual mortality event. Yeah. So that's a, that's a, that's an actual thing that's described in, in law.

[00:05:53] Mm-hmm. In the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which is, I believe it was passed in 1973. So the, that [00:06:00] act was a part of the whole slate of environmental, massive environmental laws that Thank you happen. Thank

[00:06:05] Tyler: you Richard Nixon.

[00:06:07] Andrew: Totally. I know. Don't know that came from, but I know Well, he was a savvy politician.

[00:06:11] Yeah. That, that should be a, a, a caveat there. But, but he did it. And, and those laws are, um, very much still in effect and have had profound, um, impacts in terms of cleaning up the environment. But the, the Marine Mammal Protection Act is another one that's done a lot of great things. And in it, they basically, uh, said, you know, if a certain amount of marine mammal strandings happen in a short period of time, and they're not sure of the causes, And they're in a, you know, a sort of a tight geographic area, then it can be declared an unusual mortality event.

[00:06:47] And that essentially just triggers more monitoring by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And in 2016, they, they being Noah, [00:07:00] were getting reports from various marine mammal stranding centers up and down the US East coast, um, of a lot of humpbacks washing up a lot more than in previous years.

[00:07:08] And so that by 2017, um, allowed them to declare officially an unusual mortality event. And that, to be clear, that unusual mortality event is, is the same one that we are currently in right now.

[00:07:23] Tyler: So it's Those are connected basically, would you say?

[00:07:26] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it, it's basically an ongoing situation. It's really just like when the strandings drop down.

[00:07:33] To a low level and stay that way for a couple years. Mm-hmm. They will declare the u e to be over. But as of now, since 2016, um, it's spiked and spiked in the last couple years. It's gone down. Actually, uh, last year was a low year compared to previous recent years. Yeah. But of course, this year looks like another

[00:07:56] Tyler: spike.

[00:07:57] It's been, I, I think I read somewhere the average was like, [00:08:00] almost like 52 whale deaths a year on average, roughly. Is that that correct?

[00:08:05] Andrew: That could be for combined whales. Yeah. Yeah. Humpbacks the, I, I don't know the exact number, but the highest amount of humpbacks I think occurred in 2017 or 2018. It was in the thirties, maybe 36.

[00:08:21] You'll have to, you have to check me on that one. Put that in the show notes. Show notes or something. Show notes, yeah. Yeah. But, but that was, that was the peak of it, and it's, and it's been in the twenties and then, Last year I believe was down in the teens, which was good. So, I mean, Noah at that point would've been thinking, okay, we're seeing a decline.

[00:08:39] Yeah, let's monitor this. But then of course December came and here we are.

[00:08:44] Tyler: Do you, does this happen mostly in winter as well? Like, it seems like from, from other past articles I've read, like, it, it seems to happen around this time. So I'm curious like what their migratory patterns must be around this [00:09:00] time and, and what, what other things factors could be playing into this?

[00:09:05] Andrew: Yeah. Well that's a, that's a big question. Um, because a lot of things have, have changed. I, it, it depends on what you're talking about. Um, in terms of location. Mm-hmm. Um, spatial distances. So in the winter, the, the strandings, let's say within, in the past, since 2016. Mm-hmm. So, we'll, we'll talk within. This, this current gome event, cuz that's where there's a lot of really good like data incident by incident data.

[00:09:34] Yeah. And in that case, um, in those past years, it's, it's been isolated around the mid-Atlantic. So the Chesapeake, the mouth of the Chesapeake, Chesapeake Bay tends to have seen a lot of humpback whale strandings in the wintertime. Mm-hmm. They do happen here on the East coast, but then there's another uptick in the summer.

[00:09:56] Mm-hmm. And that has to do with, with migration [00:10:00] patterns. Um, in the fall, the humpbacks are historically they, they've had, they've had it south to the Caribbean. That's where they, that's where they breed, you know, that's, and, and then they, they stay there for the winter and then they head back up to basically the Gulf of Maine.

[00:10:15] Gulf of Maine and other areas. The North Atlantic, um, you know, around this time of year. So I don't wanna get too far into it, but there's been changes in the way. Humpbacks particularly have been migrating back and forth. Mm-hmm. And this summer, for example, when the whales should have been further up north, there, here were, there was a tremendous amount of sightings off New Jersey and New York.

[00:10:44] Really? Yeah. It's, um,

[00:10:47] Tyler: first I'm gonna just, I have the data. 78 dead whales were reported 2017. Okay. I don't know, uh, hump acts, but it included humpbacks and Wright whales and probably minks too. Yeah. Minks as [00:11:00] well. Yep. So just a, you know, now I don't have to put it in the notes. Good. But, but it's a lot, it's a insane amount.

[00:11:08] It, from what I was reading, there was a really good piece in the New York Times also recently, uh, discussing this. And they, they mentioned how, you know, some of the habits have changed because of the, the, you know, one is, is the water is a little warmer. Climate change is definitely having some sort of effect.

[00:11:28] And then what they eat has moved closer to shore. I, if I'm not mistaken. Is that that correct?

[00:11:34] Andrew: That is correct. Um, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot that scientists still don't know about humpback behavior, and that's saying a lot for this area because the, the humpback population in the Gulf of Maine is probably one of the most studied humpback populations in the world.

[00:11:52] That has a lot to do with a, you know, it's, this is a metropolis here. Yeah. Um, you know, there's a lot of people here. There's a lot of [00:12:00] institutions, woods Hole especially. Um, so anyway, the, it's, it's a, it's a highly studied region. And we know from, from a lot of research that the Gulf of Maine is warming.

[00:12:13] It's one of the fastest warming bodies of water on the planet. Wow. I mean, it's, it's really heating up fast. And that has a lot of implications for obviously the marine life that, that use it. But not just the marine life, the, the wildlife, the, the Berg populations. And it's even more complicated because the Gulf of Maine is a mixing ground for a lot of different marine mammals, a lot of different seals, a lot of different whales, like we mentioned, hump bag, Mickey, uh, right.

[00:12:38] Whales, a lot of porpoises and sea turtles. And, and so they, they all come to this area, uh, historically to feed Yeah. Uh, in the summers. And with the water chemistry changing generally the, the it heating up that has changed, um, all the way from the way. Plankton is [00:13:00] distributed to the distribution of bait fish.

[00:13:03] And when we talk about distribution, we just mean where basically where they're swimming to Yeah. And where they're going. And when you have those shifts in bait fish in food sources, the, the whales are going to respond, uh, in kind. And there is some, um, research or there there's definitive knowledge. I think it's blue whales have, have shifted Wow.

[00:13:25] Uh, a little further north to chase, uh, uh, their, their food source sources. Humpbacks. They're still trying to figure out exactly how they're changing. But what they do know is that menhaden, the menhaden population in, in the last couple years has, has really exploded. And Menhaden tends. To school closer to the shore.

[00:13:46] Uh, anyone who's grown up on the beaches around here probably have seen the menhaden boats out. Mm-hmm. Out right Offshore, they, they dropped the big, the, the big scene nets. Mm-hmm. And they catch the menhaden there. So, so they're, they're near [00:14:00] shore fish. And, um, you know, the, the whales, if a lot of the other species that they, that they chase like whiting, which have declined Right.

[00:14:12] Declined right. Yeah. So as you get declines, they're gonna get a little more desperate and they're gonna chase what they can. Uh, as one scientist told me, it's not like they love menhaden more than than anything else. It's just that they, they gotta eat what they can.

[00:14:23] Tyler: It's, um, it's, it's also right that the humpback population has come back tremendously and there's just more of them than there have been in, in.

[00:14:35] The past 30 years, right. Like, I mean, I, in, in preparation for this, I, I decided to watch, you know, star Trek four, the search, you know, the way home as you do. Yes, yes you do. You know, because the Hump X what saves us from, you know, the, the probe that comes in and wipes the water off the earth, right? So, uh, very important research there.

[00:14:56] Uh, but remember, like I remember in the eighties there was this big [00:15:00] push to save the humpback whale and there was they so much that they made a Star Trek about it. I mean, it was really in the, the zeitgeist almost. And it has, for the most part, the populations have bounced back tremendously.

[00:15:14] Andrew: Yeah, I that's you're right.

[00:15:17] It wasn't the zeitgeist. Everyone knows Save the whales. Yeah. Um, so the thing is, I'll just push back against that a little bit. Yeah. Cuz I thought that's what, that was the language that I used when I called. Yeah. All these various scientists, I would say, So this, the humpback population, it really appears to be exploding.

[00:15:36] And they would always sort of correct me and say, yes, it's, it's doing a lot better than it was mid-century, mid 20th century. I mean, they were almost gone. Gone, yeah. From whaling, um, mid-century. And they have the, the, the global population Yeah. Has, has, has increased, you know, in a healthy way. But what [00:16:00] they don't know is how much the Gulf of Maine population, cuz they look at populations, um, separately, right.

[00:16:08] And that population may or may not sort of be growing at a healthy rate, or it might just sort of be level. And then there's other, there's other, um, humpback populations that mix. So it's really hard to tell on a population by population basis, um, who's doing better than the other. But as taken as an aggregate as a whole.

[00:16:30] Yes, you're right. The humpbacks are doing, um, better than most other whale species. I mean, for example, the, the North Atlantic right whale? Yeah. There's, there's only like 300. Yeah. Like roughly about that. Yeah. Left. Um, that's crazy in the world. Yeah. So it's, it's one of the most endangered, uh, you know, species on the planet.

[00:16:50] Tyler: So we have these confluence of things happening, you know, um, the whale population, you know, for humpbacks have, have [00:17:00] increased though, you know, whether they're, they're rebounded is, is another discussion. We have food, they're food source is moving more close to shore, which is, it's interesting, I never saw whales close to shore growing up, and in the last 10, 15 years it feels like we see them so much more now.

[00:17:21] We see them in the East River, we see them, you know, Right off the coast Yeah. Of Rockaway, you know, where God, when I was a kid, like you just had to be careful of not stepping on needles. You know, like, it's, it's really one, I mean, the East River and Hudson have have cleaned up tremendously. Totally. Um, but there's also, you know, this food source, you know, and I wonder if before, uh, before Europeans came and hunted the whales, if that was normal for them to come this close.

[00:17:54] And there's no real way of checking that

[00:17:56] Andrew: data, I guess. Yeah. Well that's, that's a, that's a [00:18:00] fascinating thought experiment. And I think there's, I think that's sort of like a a million dollar question that scientists know. They can, they can never answer. But I think there's hints in history, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:10] Um, I just wrote this story for the Times Magazine about Yeah. Atlantic Sturgeon. Yes. And that's a good, that's a great, that's a good comparison there. Thank you. Um, you know, before European settlement. Yeah. Um, In the Delaware River area, so Philadelphia, that, that, all of that, um, it's something like 350,000 spawning adults, adult Atlantic surgeon rushed up the river every spring and spawned, and there's, there's all kinds of stories in including accounts by William Penn of mm-hmm.

[00:18:44] You know, 14 foot, uh, Atlantic sturgeon jumping out of the water. Yeah. Landing on boats. Uh, and, and just this, this, uh, this body of water just alive with fish. And of course we have the stories of the passenger pigeons and how they, how they blotted out the [00:19:00] sun for minutes at a time. And I think it's hard for us in the world that we live now, especially when we, like you and I, we go down to the beach, you go down the Rockaway, I go to Ocean City and we sit on these beaches and, and we're ostensibly in nature.

[00:19:16] Right. But it's not nature at all. You know, the beach is, is been replenished. It's augmented. Mm-hmm. There's a boardwalk. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's not natural. So the nature I think that, that we think we are spending time in these days, and to be fair, it is nature. Yeah. But it's not the abundant nature. Yeah.

[00:19:36] That existed before we, you know, were here, threw a wrecking ball through it. Yeah,

[00:19:42] Tyler: totally. Before we built boardwalks and food stands and jetties and all of these things. Jet basically, you

[00:19:47] Andrew: know, pop sand. Yeah. Nonstop. Oh my gosh.

[00:19:50] Tyler: Yeah. So we have all of these things right. Happening. Um, what are, what do you think are the contributing [00:20:00] factors then for these, what let's, I want to actually, I first want to ask this, this question.

[00:20:05] Um, it's, it's, uh, basically what is a Nicki? What, what is that? How does that, uh, Determine how a whale has passed.

[00:20:18] Andrew: So, uh, a Nero is just an autopsy. Yeah. It's the animal form of a, of an autopsy. Uh, what they look for, uh, it depends on really the condition of the, the animal. Mm-hmm. For example, that that, uh, that pygmy sperm whale that I mentioned earlier, that washed up just the other day in Ocean, ocean City.

[00:20:40] It was so, it was so decayed that they couldn't, they can't do anything with it. Um, they might've taken tissue samples or something like that. Mm-hmm. But there's, there's not much you can, you can do with a, with a specimen like that. Uh, it's, you can imagine. I guess I should probably describe it as best as I know it as well cuz it's [00:21:00] because I'm curious, like crazy how

[00:21:01] Tyler: this gets done on a whale.

[00:21:02] Like how do you do an autopsy on a whale that is, you know, 40 feet Right. You know, or something massive, you know? Right. And it's, you can't just bring it into the, you know, the morgue and, and just like go, yeah. All right, let's take

[00:21:17] Andrew: a look and open her ups. Like, let's play this thing. Yeah, no, you'd have to, I mean, it's, it's like Moby dick, you gotta, yeah.

[00:21:22] You're gonna have to swallow, it's gonna have to swallow you to, to get into it, but no, they, I mean, they talk about, um, I had a, I've since spent some time with, and also talked with, uh, folks who run these marine mammal, uh, stranding centers. Mm-hmm. Basically each state, east coast state has a marine mammal stranding center that's sort of sanctioned to be the one that responds to these events.

[00:21:44] Uh, and they also handle, they oversee the necropsies and, and yeah. I mean, it's as, it's as kind of brutal and dangerous as you think it is. I mean, just to cut into, to get to the stomach contents of a. Of a humpback whale. And I should add that all these humpback whales are [00:22:00] still juveniles. I mean, they're, and they're like 30 feet.

[00:22:02] Yeah. And these are still juvenile whales, so they're massive. And you have to just pull out these massive knives and blades, and often they're working. It's freezing cold. The wind's blowing. It smells, it stinks so bad. I mean, the stench is, is out of this world, um, from a, from an animal that large that's closing.

[00:22:23] What about

[00:22:24] Tyler: the ex whales exploding? I've heard like stories of whales be, you know, bloating with gas and then like, they could explode

[00:22:31] Andrew: if you're not careful. Yeah, I guess that's, I know that's a concern. Uh, but then it's a thing. There's like that one, uh, that one YouTube spoof video, no one knows if it's real or not.

[00:22:42] Yeah, I know. Blubber raining down on, on the, uh, you know, unsuspected Beach tours in, I think it was in Oregon or something, but, um, I don't know. Uh, ba basically what usually happens, it's, it's. This is the same thing that happens with any decomposing organism. It, you know, gases build up. Yeah. And, and um, I guess if it hits a, a [00:23:00] critical point and there's no release valve, then there could be some kind of explosion.

[00:23:05] But I think it's more of like a, a slow popping. Yeah. And, and, and usually when they, cuz the whales will, will, you know, wash up in the shore break and sort of be half in water, half in the sand. Yeah. And then they bring the excavators and they roll them, and I think when they roll them, yeah, that's, that, that usually causes a, a puncture that, that can then release the gases.

[00:23:25] But I mean, it's just a, if you're, uh, if you're a 35 foot. Animal. There's a lot of gas that can be created from, from that, sorry, at the minimum. But

[00:23:40] Tyler: ju juvenile, uh, humor here for the juvenile whales. Sorry,

[00:23:43] Andrew: we gotta keep a dark situation. We gotta bring humor in when

[00:23:45] Tyler: we, when we can. Yeah. Um, so, so they go in and it's a brutal, brutal process then where they have to cut like deep into it.

[00:23:56] I mean, there's a lot of blubber that you have to cut through, I imagine and [00:24:00]must be extremely difficult working conditions.

[00:24:03] Andrew: It's everyone that I've talked to, they say that it is, um, you know, if it's pouring rain, sometimes it's snowing. Not this winter, but, um, yeah, it's just, it's, it's hard to get in there to get basic things like stomach contents.

[00:24:17] I think they would probably tell you they being the, you know, the folks that do the necropsies, they would tell you that stomach contents is one of the easy things. Um, but in terms of extracting, um, Certain bones that might indicate other types of injuries? Very difficult. Uh, you can't just, you, you, how are you gonna, you're gonna have to cut the whale's head off and, and take it into a lab or something to, to really, you know, look at bones as closely as, as you need to do.

[00:24:46] So what happens is, is the, with most of the necropsies, they do the basic testing. Uh, and I, and I wish I had specifics for you exactly what they take, but I do know that it, it all depends on the condition of the, of the specimen, uh, [00:25:00] how fresh it is, how big it is, where it's located. There's so many variables.

[00:25:04] They, they do what they can to, to get, you know, basic, uh, you know, samples, to try to figure out what's, what's going on with these, with these

[00:25:12] Tyler: creatures. So when they, they, when, and they being, who are the, the, the, these people who, are they funded by the government? Are they funded by nonprofit? Where do they get their funding to do these?

[00:25:25] Necropsies

[00:25:26] Andrew: They are. A lot of them are not funded by the government directly. Uh, there's, there's a group that did some of the, the necropsies of the whales here in New York and New Jersey, and they, they get their own funding from, from various sources that the one group, it should be said, gets, uh, some of their board members, I'm not gonna say they get funding, but some of their board members are, are associated with, with offshore wind.

[00:25:52] And We'll, I know we'll get into that. Yeah. So that is a, that is a reality, uh, for, for that specific group. And [00:26:00] I, I think it's the, gosh, I don't wanna mutilate the name. Yeah. Um, Marine Mammal Society or something. Mm-hmm. Like that. I don't want to get that wrong. But, um, but no, a lot of the other groups are, they're independently funded.

[00:26:11] For example, um, the, one of the, the folks that I spoke to down in Virginia, it's associated with the, the aquarium down there. Yeah. Um, so that's where they, they get their money and of course they, you know, They may conduct scientific studies here and there that get government money. Yeah. Cause I think, I think it's also important, something that people don't realize.

[00:26:34] A lot of the research that's done by scientists, um, you know, that money comes through the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we wouldn't be able to conduct the research that we do on all levels of science Yeah. Without, uh, you know, government funding. That's just how it works. It's not, it's not sinister or anything.

[00:26:54] That's just how the whole entire system, our assumptions,

[00:26:58] Tyler: our whole, our whole weather, you know, [00:27:00] everything we do. Yeah. To predict weather came from government funding, you know, and it's, what is it? The, uh, the fifth state, uh, the Michael. Oh, the fifth risk. Michael Fifth Lewis. Yeah. Michael Lewis. Yeah. You know, he talks, great example, talks all about these incredible programs that the government funds in the name of science that we have benefited from in private businesses.

[00:27:22] Yeah. You know, private enterprises have benefited from, and it's just so funny, Lynn, like, when, when we want to defund things and you're like, no, but this, a lot of this stuff is so important actually. Right. And have so many benefits that we have no clue about.

[00:27:36] Andrew: Like, no, I I think that's such a good point.

[00:27:40] And, and Michael Lewis's book is the perfect book to, to quickly Yeah. And easily understand that dynamic. Uh, I think when we, I mean, we think about taxes and when we think about taxes, we think about roads and bridges and, you know, the infrastructure, especially now and, and how, you know, tax [00:28:00] dollars allow us to have decent.

[00:28:04] Highways and, you know, all these things and, and airports. But it's so much more than that. You know, it's, it's, it's all of the science that, that's conducted innocuous, as you said, whether, I mean, we would, we would not be able to predict hurricanes the way that we do without noaa. Yeah. Um, and, and all of the science that's been, been created over time.

[00:28:23] I mean, it's, it's just, you know, it's, we, we, I think we. How much Yeah. Government funding has, has gotten us to the, the, the modern society that you know is America today.

[00:28:37] Tyler: It's, I, I used to have a girlfriend who worked for Noah and her whole job was basically trying to calculate, uh, modeling of currents and the effects on sand and everything under the water, basically, you know, using mathematical equations and, and using all the mapping basically to show like what happens when [00:29:00] there's a storm and a swell comes in and there's current this way.

[00:29:03] And so where the sand will go and how that will deposit and all the overall effect and that, that sort of stuff can, can have huge impacts. Like they, they, I was reading recently about how stuff like that has helped, uh, coast Guard locate people, you know Yeah. Uh, who have been lost at sea because of this sort of stuff that was funded by

[00:29:24] Andrew: Noah actually.

[00:29:25] Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, uh, To that point. Yeah. In that vein, we can look at beach replenishment. Yeah. On the, on the, not just the East Coast, but you know, east coast and, and Gulf of Mexico. Certainly. I mean, yeah. All of, not only is that just that work directly funded by taxpayers. Yeah. I mean it's the, the federal government, uh, pays, uh, over 70% of the, of the bill for each beach replenishment job.

[00:29:52] Yeah. That, that happens up here in this area. But then there's, there's universities, for example, Stockton [00:30:00] University in South Jersey. I wrote a story a few years back also for the Times Magazine about Stuart Ferrell. Mm-hmm. Stuart started the, um, the Coastal Research Center at Stockton. And, you know, a lot of the money that they got, you know, came through government funding.

[00:30:14] Mm-hmm. It also came through the university private, uh, private entities. But the research that Stu did, which was the exact same research that Yeah. Uh, the, your friend did. You know, it was invaluable for calculating how much sand a town would need. Yeah. So that they wouldn't be overcharged, they wouldn't do too much because, you know, if you do too much sand, you could do harm, you could do major harm, or you do too little and it's just wasted money.

[00:30:37] So, um, beach tree plans, it's a, a fantastic example of basically if we didn't have a government structure and a, and a strong tax structure Right. We, we wouldn't have any beaches to go to straight up. That's crazy. Yeah.

[00:30:52] Tyler: And we will be right back and now back to our show. So back to [00:31:00] the whales here. Uh, but you know, cuz and we'll, we're gonna get into this too because this is definitely part of your beat is, is like the government and, and how it plays a role in the studying of this.

[00:31:13] But I, I guess part of the issue, I guess then is now. A lot of people are looking for what causes these, what has been causing this, um, you know, these deaths, the, you know, and what is, what has been causing unusual mortality events. And everyone that I've seen on social media, uh, it feels like, has been pointing to wind farms, uh, as the main culprit for this.

[00:31:42] And, you know, there's a organization Protect Our Coast, which, uh, is, feels like it's solely focused on the wind farms and that's it. Um, and, and so I wanted to know, like, [00:32:00]and I don't want to discount this, you know, cause I don't, I don't, I don't think there's a definitive answer Yeah. To, to this question. I think it's a, a confluence of things and I, I, I'm one of those people who believe there's a lot of gray.

[00:32:13] Mm-hmm. And it's not black or white, but. What are, what are the main contentions here? What are people saying, uh, about the wind farms and what effects they, they believe could be having on the

[00:32:25] Andrew: whales? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'm, I'm with you. I, I think I'm, I'm someone who thinks the answers lie in the, in the, in the gray areas as well.

[00:32:35] Um, so the main contention right now for, for the, the reason for the whale strandings is this stuff called sub-bottom surveying. Mm-hmm. That's happening on behalf of the, of the wind farm. So, to be clear, there are no windmills out off the ocean yet. Yeah. So what they're doing, and it's, when I say they, it's, it's basically two companies.

[00:32:57] It's Orstad, uh, a Danish company, and [00:33:00] then Atlantic Shore. And they have some lease areas. They've, they've been granted lease areas off of New Jersey and New York mm-hmm. To build these, these wind farms, they, they vary in size. Um, I think Ted's lease area in Southern New Jersey will have about, uh, a little over, I think a hundred of these massive general electric wind turbines.

[00:33:22] These are, these are big like a thousand feet.

[00:33:23] Tyler: Yeah. These are like next statue of Liberty size

[00:33:27] Andrew: dwarf, the, the Statue of Liberty. Wow. Yeah. They're very, they're very big. Yeah. Um, and it's worth pointing out the, the entirety of the lease areas that the federal government has sort of carved out mm-hmm. Is over 2 million acres of, of ocean floor up and down the East coast.

[00:33:43] So it's, it's, it's a, it's a huge amount of. Nearshore area, they're gonna mills

[00:33:49] Tyler: where they're gonna be fairly visible from

[00:33:50] Andrew: shore, correct? It depends, yeah. Depends on how far they're located. Yeah. Um, the ones in South Jersey will on on clear days, obviously if it's cloudy and foggy Yeah. [00:34:00] You're not gonna see anything.

[00:34:00] But yeah, by and large, most of them are pretty close and, and they will be seen. Okay. Um, so right now you, you have to survey the, the sea floor to, to find out, you know, where you can put footings, if there's any, you know, wrecks, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, things in the way the sea floor has to be profiled in order to, in order to build these, these structures.

[00:34:21] And that's what's happening right now. And, and what they're doing is they use a variety of equipment to survey the sea floor. Mm-hmm. Uh, it ranges anywhere from essentially innocuous, kind of like fish finder style, uh, you know, sonar. Yeah. All the way up to, uh, these things that are called. The sub-bottom profilers, which they, they can see down a couple hundred feet into the sea floor.

[00:34:48] Yeah. Cuz they need to know the strato, see that there's bedrock or whatever exactly is down there that can hold it. These things are called generally boomers and sparkers. Okay. Boomer? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Boomer boomers are in the, [00:35:00] in the hot seat now, let me tell you. Um, they get pulled behind these, these boats and they, they pulse signals and it's very simple to, to see the sea floor, to see down into the sea floor to see fish on a fish finder.

[00:35:16] Mm-hmm. That is sound. All it is is sound pulse through the water and it bounces off as objects and then it creates a picture. Yeah. Uh, for whoever the technician is reading the screen. And this survey, this survey work, this sonar work is at the center of this drama that's unfolding with the humpback whales and, and now dolphins.

[00:35:38] Yeah. Now

[00:35:39] Tyler: I was reading somewhere, uh, that you know, that it depends on the animal, on the ma mammal, uh, or animal, but there are some that have teeth and some that don't. And this might affect ones that have teeth and the ones that don't, you know, it wouldn't really [00:36:00] affect, uh, what's the science say behind all this so far?

[00:36:04] Andrew: Yeah. Well, I just want to be clear that what a lot of what I'm saying Yeah. Is comes from conversations that I've had with scientists. Of course, I am by no means a marine mammal scientist. Of course I am not a sound. Expert. Um, but what I do is I, when something like this happens, I call up the people who have published papers, have conducted studies and put it out there mm-hmm.

[00:36:28] In, you know, in public forums that are accredited and respected and have proven to be correct in the past. So that's kind of like my baseline there. Yeah. With that said, Yes. It depends on the, the type of whale species. Tooth whales are more sensitive to sound, but, but it's, it's basically, you can think of it in three stages of sound.

[00:36:50] So there's high frequency sound, there's mid-range sound, and then there's low frequency sound. Yeah. High frequency is like a dog whistle, basically. Um, I've been told that if [00:37:00]you actually did get close enough to a dog whistle, you could actually hear a, a slate chirping and then all the way down the low F suite, which is like going to the loudest rock concert you can get to and putting your ear up against the base like it's that low.

[00:37:12] Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it can be heard and, and these different, these three different la layers of sound are heard differently by different types of whales. Yeah. Um, you know, um, humpbacks, they do not use echo location. Mm-hmm. But they are. Echo location can, can pick up on high frequency stuff. Yeah.

[00:37:33] Uh, dolphins use that humpbacks don't do echolocation. They're more in the mid and low, uh, frequency range. Yeah. Of, of hearing. And they are one of the more sound sensitive, uh, whales in the ocean. I don't know if you've ever heard a humpback whale song, but it's, it's like sad and, and beautiful and, and just, it's like, it's

[00:37:56] Tyler: gorgeous.

[00:37:56] It's gorgeous. Do you think the opening song's gonna be for this episode? [00:38:00]

[00:38:01] Andrew: I have a good website with all the whale sounds. It's, it's gorgeous. People go to sleep to them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, it's, it's, it's gorgeous and it's, it's that mid frequency, uh, sort of base Yeah. Sound. [AL1] 

[00:38:13] Tyler: So, so the concern amongst a lot of the people is that sonar is affecting them, making them disoriented and then losing their way and.

[00:38:27] Could that, and is that what they're saying? Is killing them the disorientation or are they saying that it, you know, it, it messes up their brain, causes brain injury? What are, what are like the people who are questioning the wind farms saying about this? Yeah. So like, what's that science I guess, that they're leaning on for

[00:38:47] Andrew: this?

[00:38:47] Well, the thing is, is that there is no science on the behavioral response, right? To sound in marine mammals. Um, because you can imagine how hard that would be to, to study. [00:39:00]You'd have to hit a marine mammal with a sound and somehow be able to swim alongside of it as it, um, you know, diverts or dives down.

[00:39:11] So no one has observed exactly what happens behaviorally. So it's need to get them some EarPods they need, we need whale pods or uh, air tag. Yeah. You know, an air tag would be

[00:39:20] Tyler: helpful. And then EarPods and we do the sound test. You know?

[00:39:24] Andrew: Exactly. I mean, they, they, they do, they do. Um, I'll just, I'll just stop there.

[00:39:33] I'll, I'll say that, um, we do know the, the only definitive evidence we have of, of marine mammals being killed by sonar activities is a handful of naval exercises. Right. In the last. Several decades. Uh, the big event was in The Bahamas, I think in 2000. That was the one that they, uh, it was Beaked whales and beaked whales are, are sensitive to, to [00:40:00] mid-frequency sound and these naval exercises.

[00:40:02] Another one was in the Canaries. I think it's a lot of boats together. Um, firing off a lot of this, this, this low and mid frequency. Wow. Uh, sonar. And there have been s stranding events, um, that have happened within hours of these exercises. So can someone, did someone see with their eyes, you know, obviously you can't see sound moving through the water, but I mean, it was, it's pretty clear Yeah.

[00:40:27] That this sonar activity has, has injured these whales, um, humpbacks. There's, there's less to no evidence on, on the, on a direct, um, stranding event. Mm-hmm. So there's just these nuggets or these anecdotes from the past that are really alarming that. Do suggest that if marine mammals, humpback whales, wright, whales, seals, even certainly dolphins, if they are in close proximity of this, of this [00:41:00] equipment, this equipment that's pulsing this sound down, that it, I mean, it, it will have an impact on, on these, on these animals.

[00:41:07] I, I like to think about, you know, how you watch TV and they'll say, this is a, we interrupt your program where this emergency broadcast signal, and it's like that bur Yeah. I mean I think that's, that's, I think that's a good way to think about it for these animals. So, you know, in the, in all of this drama, you hear a lot of stuff that has no basis in science.

[00:41:29] Like it's exploding their brains or it, it's killing them, um, immediately. And to be clear, even. The sound with the, the naval exercises that have happened in the past. It's not the sound, I mean the sound is the cause for sure. Yeah, it is. It's, it's there, but it's because they dive and then they essentially get the bends.

[00:41:49] Mm-hmm. So they're diving away from the sound and they're killed by the, the nitrogen bubbles. Okay. In their blood. Um, that's a little difficult right off the coast here because it's not that deep. Yeah. [00:42:00] Um, so I'm not saying that. I mean, look, we don't know, right. I mean, we don't, we don't even have the results of these necropsies yet.

[00:42:09] And I am just of the camp of where we need to like, just take a deep breath and see what comes out of these results and, and look at what's been Yeah. Compiled by scientists in the past. Because what's happening is, The, the, the good information where you can, you can start to grab a hold of and look at for reference, like these, these naval navy practice strandings in the past is getting all swirled and mixed up with these wild conspiracy theories.

[00:42:41] And in that sort of mix is just a mess of ideas and it's just a lot of noise and, and it's, it's becoming more confusing than it is helpful in my opinion. It, it

[00:42:53] Tyler: feels like it, right? Like I, you know, so I, I, I reached out to protect our coast and [00:43:00] one of the things I I, I emailed and ask, and I haven't heard back yet, but I'm sure I will.

[00:43:04] Um, I did ask like, well if studies, if the necropsies come back and they show conclusively that these deaths were caused by other reasons other than the windmill, you know, would you be willing to back regulation for these other things? Uh, cuz I think because when I went onto that site, it's all windmills.

[00:43:25] Everything is about the windmills and nothing else about like plastic or shipping or anything else that could affect, uh, you know, the deaths of the whales or, or sea life in general. Um, so to me it felt so singular focused and it didn't, it felt like they were just, this is the problem. That's it. As opposed to being open to some of the other potential, uh, hazards that are, that we are seeing that could be regulated relatively easily actually.

[00:43:58] Yeah. Um, you know, [00:44:00] and, and you even write in one of your articles, you, you started to write like, you know, around the whale were these plastic signs, you know, say no to windmills and. Hang on. Plastic signs on the beach being thrown left there. Probably not good to protect the coast.

[00:44:17] Andrew: Yeah.

[00:44:18] Tyler: Yeah. It's so, it felt a little counterintuitive to me.

[00:44:21] Andrew: I guess it's, it's, it's one-sided. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, protect our coast. They, they started a lot of years ago. Um, they, they started as a small community group in Ocean City mm-hmm. And South Jersey. And they were, that was their thing. They, they did not want to see windmills off the coast. It began with, um, this is gonna hamper our view.

[00:44:46] It's gonna, it's gonna mutilate our view. And it, and it sort of has, has grown from there. And, you know, when you, when you start your, your movement and you put it on social media, you know, it's. I don't wanna speak [00:45:00] for the, the founders of, of protect our coast, but I, I can almost guarantee that they're, they're probably not happy with all of the dialogue that occurs on that website.

[00:45:08] Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's a movement that started and they certainly can't be responsible for, for all of the, the views a spouse there. But I think in this, in this controversy, you're right. You know, it's the, the folks are who are crying the loudest about the plight of the whales. Um, this is fantastic to see so many people all of a sudden care so much about our marine life.

[00:45:33] Yeah. Because last time I checked before December, 2022, the ocean was in pretty shit condition and I didn't see anyone yelling and screaming about that. And so that, I think is what is really frustrating for a lot of people is that yes, it's great to be shining a light on whatever's happening with the whales, even if it ends up being sonar.

[00:45:56] But let's not. Be one-sided about it, let's [00:46:00] accept that. Um, plastic is in every one of those stomach samples that we, you know, we talked about during necropsies earlier, that their food sources are, are shifting and they're becoming hungrier and, and, and it's, it's, it's making them in some senses, more desperate for food, um, in some places.

[00:46:18] And, and, you know, and with regard to, to seals in the Gulf of Maine, they're having problems with avian influenza. Yeah. Now making them sick. Wow. And there are some cases of dolphins as well, so the ocean is sick. So I think what makes it really difficult to have any constructive dialogue is that no one says, makes a peep about, well, what happens if we don't try different forms of energy and we just keep going on business as usual with fossil fuels?

[00:46:52] What is like, what is that unforeseen event? As a result of not changing that might occur and [00:47:00] kill more whales than, than sonar could, could, could ever kill. So it's actually like, it's this really shitty situation, right? Like, wait, what's the collateral damage of us trying to continue the existence that, that, that the way we're, we want to have

[00:47:15] Tyler: the way we're going.

[00:47:16] You can see the effects on the ocean. Yeah. Like we can, we, we have tons of data, you know, so clearly we're having an impact and what we're doing isn't helping. So we need to change. Yeah. You know, something. And to me that, uh, just feels like, yeah. It, it feels, it rings hollow to me. Yeah. When you say, well the wind farm, we wanna save the mammals.

[00:47:39] Well fuck. Like, you just put plastic on the beach to promote your organization, that is probably gonna end up in the ocean and potentially some animal is going to eat it, potentially a whale, you know? Right. Um, That to me rings hollow. Uh, and it definitely is, is frustrating. Um, [00:48:00] we should talk about then also like, like some of these organizations and, and also the, the, the organizations that are, like you said, uh, studying the ne where the funding is coming from.

[00:48:11] Yeah. You know, because there is, you know, the Protect our coast, when you hit on that PayPal, it goes to a conservative think tank organization. That definitely, um, you know, seems like a bit of a conflict. You know, it's, um, um, trying to look up the Caesar,

[00:48:30] Andrew: Rodney, I, Caesar Institute. Yes. Caesar, Rodney Institute.

[00:48:32] And, and it has, it's a lot of, it's, it's people are very clearly. Sort of anti renewables and pro fossil fuels.

[00:48:46] Tyler: So yeah. And then on the other side, wind farms are funding the necropsies and who, what else, you know, what other organizations they're getting into as well.

[00:48:56] So they, they do have a venture vested interest. [00:49:00] Do you think then, because of where the funding is coming from on both sides, is that creating then this mistrust of the data and, and it seems like there's a mistrust of the necropsies and, and the results that might come out because there is funding coming from the wind farms.

[00:49:20] Is that something do you think we need to worry about or be concerned with? I think we

[00:49:24] Andrew: need to be concerned about it at a societal level. Yeah, because it's not, um, these, these, all of these different funding sources that have their own agendas, you know, they're, they're just gonna muddle the, the debate.

[00:49:42] Even more, you know, it's, I, I think it's good that we're, we're looking into, um, you know, all of the funding sources for, you know, these, these various, various necropsy organizations, um, these folks that are doing necropsies. [00:50:00] Um, but again, I think the, the, the, the, the tragedy in all of this is the, the, the scientists, you know Yeah.

[00:50:08] Who have been going at this work for, for so long, um, you know, that they have been working independently of any funding source that they get, and, and they're. They're kind of being trampled by this, by this, this argument. And, and, um, I, I wish that, I wish that their voices could come through more, but quite frankly, some of them are scared to speak out because they, they get harassed so heavily by certain people with regard to this situation.

[00:50:37] Yeah. Um, so they're becoming, they're becoming a little leery of, of speaking to, to people like me. And, and so I think that's, I think that's why it's in important for someone like me when I, when I write these stories is, is to, is to be extremely measured. Yeah. Um, because again, they're, there are a lot of questions, you know, these, these, the wind farm [00:51:00] companies, they're, they are moving at breakneck pace.

[00:51:04] Yeah. This is happening really fast. And the government, these government agencies for all of the good that they, that they do for science, I, inside the agency, sort of at the administrative level there, there is susceptibility to politics and things. Puzzle pieces do get picked up and shifted and moved around.

[00:51:23] That's a real thing that happens. And so in a sense, I'm glad that there's pressure on the government, um, in terms of their, their processes with these wind farms. But again, I think all of the nuance is getting lost in these, in this argument, um, about different types of boomers and sparkers and what frequency they're, they're running at.

[00:51:50] And, and you know, there's, there's this whole other debate that, that I think is far more viable, which is, you know, the [00:52:00] impact that the actual operational wind farms are going to have, um, you know, on various things Yeah. In the oceans, whether that's the way that, you know, surface currents move, that can change distribution of, of prey species.

[00:52:12] And those are things that scientists are actually truly concerned about. Yeah. And all of that nuances is getting lost in this. Crazy social media drama. Gotta get rid of social media. I think so.

[00:52:26] Tyler: I think so. And we will be right back. And now back to our show. Let's, let's dive into the, this government aspect of it, because you, in your New York Times article that came out last month talking about the sturgeons and how the government picked and choose, chose the information that they wanted to Yeah.

[00:52:51] Follow and, and there was a lot of political pressure that happened, uh, within it. Um, can you talk to that a little bit? [00:53:00] That the susceptibility, uh, of the government agencies are to

[00:53:04] Andrew: politics? Yeah. So I, the, the story, I'll try to condense it as, as much as I can, but there, there is a fisheries biologist in Delaware who does a lot of Atlantic sturgeon research, uh, in the.

[00:53:17] In the Delaware or estuary. So that's the Delaware River in bay. Yeah. Um, but also elsewhere, up and down the, the, the East Coast, uh, Atlantic sturgeon are an endangered species as well, and there's a big problem with vessel strikes. Mm-hmm. And Atlantic sturgeon, not just in the Delaware estuary, but in a lot of rivers.

[00:53:38] And there was very little known about just how, um, much of an impact vessel strikes had on Atlantic sturgeon. For various reasons. They are more susceptible to vessel strike because where they live their size. Mm-hmm. Even there's even sort of evolutionary reasons. Um, so this, this scientist in, in Delaware, Dwayne Fox, he [00:54:00] devised this study where he basically sort of distributed dummy carcasses throughout the estuary.

[00:54:05] And by seeing how many people in the public reported them, he could kind of get an idea of, of. Basically how many dead sturgeon were going unnoticed in the estuary. And then that would then give him an idea of how many vessels were, were hitting Atlantic sturgeon. And that study, as all science as we've been talking about, was, was funded by the National Marine Fishery Service, which is an an arm of Noah.

[00:54:32] And it was, it was funded by the agency. It was reviewed by the agency biologist. It was approved by the agency biologist. And as far as Duane Fox knew at one point the study was good. It was in this sort of cachet that, that the agency calls best available science. So any review that the federal government does of a project, they are required by law to use the best available science.

[00:54:57] Yeah. By all accounts, Duane's study was now a [00:55:00] part of that best available science. Well, when, um, a couple projects came down the line a couple years later, um, that. Were directly in Atlantic Sturgeon critical habitat in the Delaware River. Uh, and where Duane's study would have been the perfect best available science to use, uh, for the environmental assessment of those projects.

[00:55:23] It wasn't used. This study was, was hardly referred to in these things that are called biological opinions. And basically the problem with Dwayne's study was that it showed that far more Atlantic sturgeon were going to die as a result of vessel strikes than any other previous science. So where those projects were located probably would be killing so many Atlantic sturgeon in the Delaware estuary that, that, that genetic population there, which is very small.

[00:55:56] Yeah. Only like 250 individual. Would, would probably be [00:56:00] extricated. Now, one

[00:56:01] Tyler: of those projects was like a Wind Farm Depot, right?

[00:56:04] Andrew: Yeah. Right. It's the wind port. Yeah, the wind. Southern New Jersey. It's going to, it's, it's next to the Salem nuclear power plant. Mm-hmm. In South Jersey, not far from where I grew up.

[00:56:17] Um, clever in terms of land use, they, they utilized an area next to the nuclear power plant. There's this really nice kind of, um, symbolism there. You have this old, uh, old renewable Soviet era nuclear power plant with this renewable energy, uh, area. This, it's a landing port, basically. And so what all it is, is it's where the, the big, these big ships come in and they load the turbine blades on and the, and the, uh, and the monopiles, and then they, they ship 'em out to sea from there.

[00:56:46] And of course you need a massive touring basin for massive ships, uh, in order to load that stuff. And that required. Dredging. Yeah. And that dredging, uh, was the thing that [00:57:00]most concerned a lot of people about Atlantic sturgeon. Cause they do live in that area and they do, um, potentially spawn in that area.

[00:57:07] Tyler: And, and these people, obviously, there's a vested interest Right. And they're gonna look for the data that supports

[00:57:16] Andrew: what they want. Yeah. I mean there's, it's, yes. I, so I had, I had, I talked to several people Yeah. In the story. And I encourage anyone who's listening to, to read that story, cuz those folks can spell it out far better than I can.

[00:57:29] Uh, but, but basically what they told me is, yes, you know, there's political pressure has occurred since the beginning of time Yeah. In these agencies. And, you know, there's a lot of, um, certainly on the, on the conservative side of politics, a lot of people say that the Endangered Species Act is a overburdensome on.

[00:57:48] On bus on industry mm-hmm. And private property owners, when in fact the, the data actually shows the complete opposite. It's, it's, most of the projects have always get improved, you know? Yeah. And, and, and these projects in the Delaware estuary were [00:58:00] perfect examples of that, of that, that data. Um, of course, no one at the, at the agency is going to tell me No, I asked, of course I ask.

[00:58:08] Yeah. I say, uh, I've been told by several people that, you know, political pressure has changed biological opinion results in the past. Yeah. You know, something, some kind of question like that, and have obviously was told. That I'm wrong, but then I have, uh, several people who have worked at the agency tell me otherwise.

[00:58:27] So it's, it's a thing. Well,

[00:58:29] Tyler: I mean, uh, recently wasn't there recently something came out about the EPA under the Trump administration. A lot of scientists had been pressured to change data and switch information because of the political pressure that they were under. So, I mean, that was like, uh, recently that came out I think in the times

[00:58:47] Andrew: actually, yes.

[00:58:47] That was, there was major pressure Yeah. Under the Trump administration and particularly, um, up in Alaska Yeah. In areas that, you know, could potentially [00:59:00] be areas for oil exploration. Yeah. There was the, uh, the, the word of, you know, the waters of the US rule Yeah. That, that the Trump admin administration wanted to get in and meddle with.

[00:59:11] So there was just a lot of, of pressure and, um, some biologist who worked at the agency that I spoke with, They should still be working at the agency now. Yeah. But they took early retirement. Wow. And, um, no one wants to tell me specifically, but everyone took their early retirement during the, the Trump administration years because, uh, for one reason or another it was too much.

[00:59:39] Well,

[00:59:39] Tyler: we should say also though, that Biden has opened up some drilling in, in Alaska too. So let's, let's,

[00:59:46] Andrew: and, and let's have some criticism there too, right? And, and Oh, absolutely. I mean, these, these folks, again, these biologists that I, that I talk with, they've been with the agency since the early eighties.

[00:59:55] They've been through, uh, you know, Reagan, Reagan, Bush won, [01:00:00] uh, Clinton, Clinton, Obama, you know, good. Pushed to pushed. Yeah. It, it doesn't trust me. It, it doesn't matter what the political, uh, affiliation is. There is pressure, uh, and I don't know, maybe that's a lesson for all of this that's happening right now.

[01:00:17] It's like we shouldn't be. We shouldn't be looking at this through such partisan lenses. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's more than that. It's, it's, it's, You can't, you can't just take aside in this, in this stuff. Well,

[01:00:33] Tyler: let's talk about some of the other causes potentially, um, that ha that that is affecting the whales.

[01:00:40] Uh, one thing that I, I think should be mentioned is the increase of, uh, cargo traffic that has been coming in and out of Newark. Um, I do sales. I sell a lot of product. I've noticed since, uh, particularly during Covid V and also the strikes in Long Beach in [01:01:00] la, you know, that cargo port, a lot of people started rerouting to the East coast because of some of those issues, and they found it to be a little bit more reliable.

[01:01:08] And then they just made, um, recently in Newark, they have allowed larger cargo ships because they were able to open the port up to make it bigger, to allow larger cargo ships to come in through Newark. Right? Yep. So there's a tremendous amount of traffic and there's also a lot of evidence that these whales have been hit by

[01:01:27] Andrew: ships, correct?

[01:01:29] That's, that's correct. Um, most of the whales that have been found this winter show evidence of vessel strike, uh, you know, folks who, you know, are concerned about the, the sonar will say, well, did that vessel strike occur? Was it, was the death result of a vessel strike, or was that that whale somehow discombobulated by the sound and then became a victim of a vessel strike?

[01:01:56] Yeah, and I think that's a fair question. I think that's, yeah. Um, and that's also [01:02:00]really hard to answer, uh, almost impossible. Uh, but, but it's a, it's a fair question, but to your point about vessel traffic, yes, absolutely. Both the Newark, New York port mm-hmm. And the, uh, Delaware River Yeah. Port pump Complex to the South, have experienced the biggest years of, of, of their existences.

[01:02:24] Um, both have changed infrastructure to accept these new panax cargo ships where these, which are these, of course, that was, I think that was the, the ever given that got stuck in the Suez Canal, that was one of these new pan, I mean, these things are so massive. They c clogged the, they clogged canals canal.

[01:02:42] So I mean, the ships are bigger, there are more of them. Um, Coming in on a, on a frequent basis. And then of course you have, you know, going back to the distribution changes Yeah. With the, with the whales. I mean, I, I've had several people tell me, um, including [01:03:00]commercial fishermen that, you know, this summer they've never seen so many whales, you know, in the channel areas that they ever have in their Yeah.

[01:03:07] You know, 30, 40 years of, of fishing the waters off the coast. So, uh, that's a bad combo to have bigger ships, more ships, more

[01:03:17] Tyler: whale whales, more whale. Do you think, I wondered if any of the dredging that I've been seen happen in Rockway and, and other places have had any effect? Also, I sometimes wonder because you have a big vacuum just sucking sand off the ocean floor and there are.

[01:03:37] Lines of sand tubes going and they have buoys and they're all coming up. And I wonder like how much that affects it as well. Um, it it, it feels like there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that are happening out there that could be affecting it. Yeah. And it's really difficult to, to

[01:03:54] Andrew: say exactly. I, it, it's true.

[01:03:57] I, I think, I think a good story, [01:04:00] quick story to tell is for that Sturgeon story, um, I was out in the bay with Dwayne Fox, uh, last summer. And he dropped a, a hydrophone over in the water because some of the sturgeon, um, they, they congregated Yeah. At the mouth of the bay in the summertime. And, and a lot of them are tagged along with other fish.

[01:04:20] And that hydrophone was a great, provided a great example of how loud the ocean is down below. Yeah. Um, you could hear, you could, we could hear the rumble of the engines of those cargo ships going into the Dell River. You could hear recreational boats, you could hear dolphins, uh, squeaking. Um, and of course you could hear the click of the, of the fish's hydrophone receivers.

[01:04:40] Of course, that's not audible to, to fish, but my point is that the environment is very loud under there and beach replenishment. Is a very loud thing. Uh, it's, I, I, I don't think we could connect it to the whales because there would be whales washed up every year because it, it happens. So we've [01:05:00] been doing it every winter.

[01:05:01] Um, it it a side note as well. I mean, they use, they use so sonar as well to mm-hmm. To, um, you know, find these, these sand stores offshore. I mean, it's, you can't, yeah. If you want see the bottom, you have to use, you use sonar. Sonar. So it's not like, um, you know, this sonar that's being used by these, these, uh, offshore wind survey ships is the first time it's, it's, it's been used off the coast of New Jersey and New York.

[01:05:26] I mean, it's constantly being used. Uh, you can definitely argue about the concentration of it with these ships in these certain wind lease areas. But, um, so is, is, is dredging detrimental to the marine environment? Absolutely. Not only does it suck up you. Areas of ecosystem, but then it covers over areas of ecosystem on the beach.

[01:05:47] So, I mean, if we want to be, if we want to be down the line environmentalist, um, we, we ought to be a little bit louder about beach replenishment too. I mean, it's, I mean, it's a tough one for people like you and me, right? Because we [01:06:00] sort of live and die by the beach. You know, we, we need sandbars and we need beaches to enjoy and go surfing.

[01:06:06] And, and the, and the, at least in New Jersey, I'm telling you, very few beaches would exist without beach replenishment.

[01:06:14] Tyler: Wow. This is why we should have artificial reefs all up and down, you know, go the Greg Weber Artificial Reef. I don't know if you've ever seen that. That thing's amazing. But, uh, yeah. Was that a plug?

[01:06:24] It was, it was. Wow. No, it's not a plug, but it's an idea that I would love to see happen. Cool. Yeah. Um, It does feel like there's a tremendous amount of, of, of opportunities for these whales, and most of them have been juvenile. Is that also correct? Like they're they're young

[01:06:40] Andrew: whales too. That's correct. They do know, uh, re mammal scientists do know that the, for they don't know why, but they do know that the vast majority of the humpbacks that are close to shore are juveniles.

[01:06:50] The adults tend to say once they're offshore,

[01:06:53] Tyler: probably easier fishing, you know, the, the shallower water. It's easier to kind of collect, I imagine, you

[01:06:58] Andrew: know? Yeah. They're not [01:07:00] sure, but that's, that's actually one of the reasons they, you know, juveniles are a little more, they're, they're feeding patterns are different.

[01:07:05] They're just like juvenile human beings. They're, they have a little more energetic, a little more willing to, to go to different places. It's, it's, it's true. They talk about it. They, they don't have, they wish they had these behavioral studies. Yeah, because that's really like the core of the, of the big question right now.

[01:07:22] What is the behavior that's, that's being impacted here? Well, I

[01:07:26] Tyler: can, I can just take a guess. Looking at juvenile humans and how dumb they are sometimes, you know, little kid spinning around and bumps his head, you know, you're like, well, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, but juvenile wells might be a similar, uh, similar in that way, taking a little bit more risk and could be, there's

[01:07:44] Andrew: a scientist would love to know that for sure.

[01:07:49] Tyler: Um, so we have, we have some, some theories at least. What can be done? I mean, what, what can we [01:08:00] do to, to move forward? Because the wind farms I don't think are gonna stop. And, and to be honest, like there were, where were a lot of people when, when the liquid natural gas was gonna be built out there too. They were talking about that and that was gonna use sonar too.

[01:08:17] So that, that's one thing I do wanna mention, like where were pe were people up in arms about that also? Um,

[01:08:23] Andrew: oil and gas, often outer banks. Exactly. Yeah. So

[01:08:28] Tyler: I guess what, what can be done? Is there any regulation can we do for the boats? Um, what it feels like we're at an impasse almost because they, they just want it to stop, but at the same time, what are the

[01:08:43] Andrew: alternatives?

[01:08:44] Yeah, I mean that's, that's the big existential question, isn't it? I feel that we are at an impasse, and I do want to say, I think that the wind companies have done a terrible job at engaging [01:09:00] with the public since this has happened. They've clammed up, um, they will not stop. Um, they. The survey, Ted is owned

[01:09:08] Tyler: Byor, right?[AL2] 

[01:09:10] Or or they're, aren't they connected? I thought,

[01:09:12] Andrew: I mean, they're all old oil and gas companies that have evolved into, that's their, their default. Yeah. They're following, you know, trends. Yeah. You know, economic trends and, and that kind of thing. Atlantic Shores for sure, yeah[AL3] . Is an old, um, I think it was, geez, I don't know.

[01:09:26] I don't wanna speak outta the term, but yet they, they definitely, both of them have ties to oil and gas and their

[01:09:31] Tyler: default. Is that pr of just not engaging?

[01:09:35] Andrew: Yeah, it's, it's, I wish they would just engage more, um, I, I, I under, I understand the reflex to not engage with the, the crazier theories. Yeah, that's fine.

[01:09:47] But there have been opportunities too, in including with the press. Yeah. You know, we, right now, um, I think those of us who are covering it responsibly, we have good relationships with [01:10:00] folks at the, at the Wind farms, just so like, we have good relationships with folks in the opposition. I know I do. I talk to both sides all the time, and I'm just trying to figure it all out.

[01:10:09] Um, but from the, from the Wind Energy company side of things, I'm just getting statements, you know, and, and it's, it's really frustrating as a journalist because you just want to, you want to, you want to talk to someone, you want to talk out whatever the, the problem might be. So in that sense, I, I wish that, you know, they would engage a little bit more with the public, one of the groups, um, Clean ocean action, which has been, been leading the, the opposition, um, you know, a group that's been around for a long time.

[01:10:37] Yeah. Beach cleanups in New Jersey. They've, they've asked for a, for a pause in the surveying. Yeah. And I'm actually of the camp where I don't think that's such a bad idea. It's not unreasonable. I don't think it's unreasonable. I think it's, it's now with all of the craziness Yeah. That's mixed into all of this.

[01:10:54] It's, it's causing the companies to clam up more and, and be probably less receptive. Mm-hmm. [01:11:00] To applause. Um, it's becoming so politicized by politicians in New Jersey that it's just making it basically the loudness of the opposition is making it less likely that there will ever be a, a pause because both sides are just gonna dig their, their heels in.

[01:11:18] And I think that's unfortunate. So, um, to your point, I think we are at an impasse and I actually, I. I don't know about the, the future of, of offshore wind on the East coast. I think, I mean, we can all look at the Block Island project, right? Yeah. That was, that was actually, um, deep water. Wind, yeah. Was that company.

[01:11:42] And they ran into a lot of opposition from communities and, and environmentalists I think, and Ted

[01:11:49] Tyler: Kennedy

[01:11:49] Andrew: at Kennedy, you know, there you go. Done, get a Kennedy involved and your project's dead. So that is just a, it's a figment of, of what it was supposed to be. [01:12:00] And so I don't think we should rule out a, a future where it's a very paired down offshore wind scenario off the East coast, depending on how this movement goes.

[01:12:13] And of course, this movement, this is really messed up. It, it depends on how many marine mammals keep dying. You know what I mean? So it's, it's just like there's so many variables and I makes my head hurt and there's.

[01:12:28] Tyler: There are other issues with the wind farms too, right? Yeah. Like, like they, they do have some oil in them and there have been issues with strain cracks and other issues there.

[01:12:40] Um, what was it? Um, also some of them have, uh, that, um, SF six greenhouse gas that they use in some of the turbines. So there are definitely a lot of things to question about it. You know, it's, it's, it's still probably better than, than using, uh, fossil fuel, but [01:13:00] there's still, you know, how do you maintain that?

[01:13:02] How do you maintain these things out in the ocean? We've seen how strong the ocean is as surfers. We are very aware of how powerful and how difficult it is to navigate sometimes. Yeah,

[01:13:15] Andrew: I mean, I would, I guess I would counter that by saying we do have examples of what happens and that's oil platforms.

[01:13:22] Yeah. And there are true breakdowns and. Yes, there's oil. I, I just, I find the argument of the oil leaking out of the windmills a little stretched because of course there's going to be failure with any machine. But when a, when a oil platform has a failure, we have the BP oil spill. So, uh, is, is a, is a windmill when, when it's blade blows off and oil spills in the ocean.

[01:13:51] Is that good? No, that's terrible. Yeah. Um, but the BP oil spill also destroyed an an a huge vast areas [01:14:00] ecosystem. Economy. An economy. An economy. So, yeah, I mean, I, I think I, I do think there's going to windmills are gonna, one of them, or many of them will at some point break down and maybe there will be an oil spill in the ocean.

[01:14:13] But I think that, that argument, that seems strange to me because we have these examples of oil platforms. Um, I heard, uh, someone recently, Criticizing windmills because well, they're metal and they'll rust. Well, yes, metal, rust in the water. But you know, again, uh, we, oil and gas platforms, they, they break down as well.

[01:14:32] They need to be dismantled. Mm-hmm. They have a shelf life too. They don't last, uh, in perpetuity. Boat boats. Boats. Yeah. So,

[01:14:39] Tyler: uh, you know, oil barges. Yeah. Uh, Exxon Valdez, anyone?

[01:14:43] Andrew: No. We're, we're dumping plenty of stuff Yeah. In the ocean without windmills. Um, but if I may, I, and I think again, it's, it's lost in, in sort of all the noise right now.

[01:14:55] But the real concern I think of, of the, all of these turbines [01:15:00] is, is what they'll do to the, to the environment. You know, just all of these structures essentially crowding these areas. You know, for New Jersey, uh, rad Offshore is a, is a very productive commercial. Scalp, ground, clam grounds, you know, the fishermen, they can't, they can't do trawls through those areas.

[01:15:18] Yeah. Um, you know, if the, the clams are, for example, clams are moving. Very quickly. Yeah. Because of temperature changes. You, you used to be able to get surf clamps right off the beach in New Jersey, you know, 20 years ago. They keep, each year they move further and further out. Wow. Cuz they're following cold water.

[01:15:35] Mm. Into deeper areas. So you can't expect, just because you've leased out an area that shows no clam beds right now, that that's not gonna be the case in 10 years. So I'm more worried about in their operational phase, what they're doing, uh, how they'll affect the bottom. I mean, commercial fisher fishing is obviously bad for the environment too, but then people who [01:16:00]complain about commercial fishing, fishing then go out and buy, you know, clamps at the store.

[01:16:04] And so it's like, let's, let's be honest here, commercial fishing isn't going anywhere. Um, so how are these wind farms gonna impact that industry? Um, these are very real problems in, in my mind because they, there, there's proof of, of how, you know, the. The catch that they're after will be affected by structures in the water and you know, how current surface currents move and stuff like that.

[01:16:28] So do you think it could affect our waves? No. Okay. No way. Just

[01:16:32] Tyler: checking. You know, the most important question for this episode, this podcast is could it affect the waves? And

[01:16:40] Andrew: now we're good. Podcast is over. Selfish, selfish surfers. No, I, I think, I mean, my god, an ocean swell is one of the, one of the nature's most amazing forms of energy.

[01:16:53] If not the most, maybe next

[01:16:55] Tyler: step. We might change the angle though. You know, like they go and like, you know, sometimes like bottom [01:17:00] country. Yeah. You know, you can make it bend. Hey, maybe we get more wedges.

[01:17:03] Andrew: Wedge. Yeah. Could, like a nazare kind of canyon funnel. I don't know.

[01:17:09] Tyler: Let's create a wind farm funnel for waves.

[01:17:12] Andrew: A wind farm triangle where the last one comes right up to the, to the beach. Yeah. Um, Andrew, I

[01:17:19] Tyler: really appreciate your time on this and explaining such a, a complicated topic. I, I, I hope I was able to do justice and I hope our listeners are able to kind of understand this issue a bit more and realize it's far more complex than, than people want it to be, or, or a lot of people make it out to be.

[01:17:39] And there's a lot of variables going into it, and I think you've done an incredible job of explaining it. So I, I want to thank you for coming on.

[01:17:51] Andrew: Hello,

[01:17:52] Tyler: this is Breaking News from Swell Season Surf Radio. So, um, [01:18:00] Andrew, we recorded on Tuesday and we discussed everything going on with the unusual mortality events. And we go out, we have dinner right after we record, and then on the way home you get an email. Um, well, who did you get the email from and what did the email say?

[01:18:28] Andrew: So, yeah, I think actually, uh, right after dinner, I, I, my phone buzzes and I told you it looks interesting and told you I'd get back to you, um, quickly, and sure enough it was a letter sent to me by, um, one of Senator Corey Booker's. Press people. Um, and it was, it was a letter signed not only by Senator Booker, but Richard Blumenthal, Robert Menendez, who is a fellow New Jersey senator of Corey Booker.

[01:18:57] Mm-hmm. Uh, Jeff Merkley. [01:19:00] And Sheldon Whitehouse. And it is a letter asking Noah to provide essentially more transparency in the, uh, the process of conducting these, these necropsies of whales and, um, not just humpbacks, but other, other whales. Um, and, and sort of streamlining that process and being more transparent about getting the information from those to, to the public.

[01:19:30] Huh.

[01:19:32] Tyler: Yeah. So. So that's, that's a huge development, you know, that's like kind of a big deal, particularly because it's Democrats who are asking for this and they're asking for a pause as well on the, uh, wind farms. Is that also the case or is it just more transparency on the necropsies?

[01:19:53] Andrew: So they didn't go as far as asking for a, for a pause, um, of the kind [01:20:00]that, that you and I talked

[01:20:01] Tyler: about.

[01:20:02] Mm-hmm. Um,

[01:20:03] Andrew: but they, and, and they didn't specifically mention anything about the surveys that, that we also discussed what they're asking for. Basically, it, it was kind of, it's very diplomatic. They're, they're saying, look, we have more money in the federal coffers to give you, tell us what you need to be to, to streamline these, these necropsies, um, and to get, you know, to get results to the public faster.

[01:20:30] Um, Let me just read a line cuz I think it's, it's important and I, I did tweet about it afterwards cuz I thought it was a key line. Um, you know, we believe accessibility, transparency, and timeliness. Timeliness is of the utmost importance for Noah's whale injury and death reporting. And then they go on to ask Noah to describe to them, which is common in one of these sort of congressional letters to a, to an agency.

[01:20:56] They, they, they're asking for answers and [01:21:00] they, so they want a timeline from NOAA in terms of sharing necropsy information for the public. Um, how NOAA plans to sort of strengthen its, its data sharing practices with nonprofits and other, other government agencies. And then how they're gonna, you know, monitor, um, further marine mammal situations like this going forward.

[01:21:23] They don't say, they don't sort of couple that with offshore wind, but it's, it's quite clear that, you know, they're concerned about. This up uptick in deaths. Um,

[01:21:34] Tyler: and they, they basically want to

[01:21:38] Andrew: see Noah engage with the public a little better, um, than they, than they have been. I think. I think that's, that's a fair sort of between the lines

[01:21:47] Tyler: assessment.

[01:21:48] Do you how much, I mean, everything is politics, right? But I wonder how much of this is a calculation for them. Um, this is [01:22:00] definitely a priority for the Biden administration to get these wind farms. And by providing more transparency, they will hopefully, uh, quell some of the concerns or at least have answers for a lot of the concerns that, that they're probably hearing from a lot of their constituents.

[01:22:20] Andrew: Yeah, I think, um, everything is politics on, on both sides of this, of this drama for sure. Um, But I think at the baseline level, I mean the, the people who have been relentlessly calling their offices and writing them, I think they deserve a lot of credit for, for this, for this letter. I mean, I know that they have been just going full court press on, on their, on their offices, um, all of all lawmakers, Republican and, and Democratic and, and, um, so I, you know, this is, you know, I, I haven't talked to anyone in the press office [01:23:00] I've requested to speak with,

[01:23:01] Tyler: with

[01:23:02] Andrew: Senator Booker.

[01:23:03] But yeah, I mean, I think this is an example of, of the public putting the gas on, on, on these senators. Um, but also it allows them, you know, the public, we have the power to, to put pressure on these agencies, you know, by, you know, Sort of waging public campaigns like some of these groups are doing. Um, but we also have the power through public records requests and stuff like that, and public records requests.

[01:23:36] You know, that is an extremely inundated system. It takes a long time to get information. So the, you know, these senators know by writing this letter, you know, this letter kind of goes to the top of the pile, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And, and can, can sort of expedite some of the, the questions that folks want answered.

[01:23:56] And I guess probably the hope is that, you know, [01:24:00] by expediting some of these things, they can quell, uh, some of the fears and maybe refute some of the, some of the concerns. You know, it might, it might backfired and it might not review anything and it might, you know, it might prove that, um, what's happening is in fact have any impact on, on re mammals.

[01:24:21] Tyler: Do, um, I wanna ask like, cuz. I saw some people posting things, um, requesting Governor Murphy to put a moratorium on this. How much say does he have over the wind farms and, you know, cuz this is kind of federal land. I, I thought so. I'm, I'm not sure how much, uh, control the, the state level has over, over something like this.

[01:24:49] Andrew: Yeah, it's, it's really tricky and I don't wanna talk out of turn cuz I don't know all of the ins and outs of how that relationship works. It's, it's, it's super [01:25:00] tricky because obviously these, these projects are happening in federal waters, so they're under federal permits. Uh, and the offshore energy companies like Ted and Atlantic Shores, they're, they're beholding to, to federal permits, you know?

[01:25:14] Right. They really, they're bow um, permits that they're operating under. And National Marine Fisheries permits, not New Jersey stuff, but then the transmission lines, obviously they land in New Jersey. So there's this really complex, uh, relationship between them. And with regard to pump acts, north Atlantic Wright Whales, I mean, these are, these are federally protected species.

[01:25:42] So analysis of, of these, of these animals is, is at the federal level. I'm not quite sure about who's in charge of, um, necropsy analysis of like dolphins and purposes. I actually [01:26:00] am trying to figure that out right now, uh, because. That kind of feeds into Senator Booker's letter, like, what the hell's going on here?

[01:26:07] Like, how, what is the gene of command with, with these, with these things, but with regard to, to, um, governor Murphy, while his and his administration's hands might be a little bit tied in terms of, you know, putting the breaks on a, on a, on one of these projects that's ongoing right now, they can certainly speak up and be heard.

[01:26:31] Yeah. Uh, you know, and, and, and ask and, you know, ask the federal government issue a letter like Senator Booker do. That kind of, um, level of, of, um, engagement that certainly has impact one way or the other. So it doesn't just have to be sort of a executive decision or, you know, a, you know, an official mandate from the governor's office.

[01:26:57] It, it can just be sort of an, an acknowledgement of. [01:27:00] The fact that there is something going on and that they, uh, have concerns enough to make some changes at, at some level. I mean, that, that coming from the governor's office, that'll be heard at the right levels on the federal side.

[01:27:19] Tyler: Do, um, now that this has been, been put out there, and it's interesting cause it, it hasn't, I have not seen much, uh, in the press yet about it.

[01:27:29] Um, so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Um, obviously there's a lot of other really big stories that are happening. I mean, Gwyneth Paltrow getting cleared is really

[01:27:39] Andrew: huge for news. How could we focus on anything?

[01:27:43] Tyler: No. Um, but, um, how long then do you think we will see a outline, uh, until we see an outline from Noah on this and in kind of a timeline of when we can start seeing, um, information.[01:28:00]

[01:28:01] So I

[01:28:01] Andrew: think, um, within the next couple months, we will begin to get some necropsy results in the public sphere. Um, you know, as a result of people like me and, and, uh, plenty of other reporters out there wanting to know about it. So it takes time. I mean, the, the necropsy reports, this is nothing new. I mean, it's, it's like anything in the federal government, it takes way too long to get, to get results.

[01:28:34] So, I mean, it's, it's like necropsies in taxes, you know? See, I think, I mean, it, it's taking time. So I think, uh, but in the next couple months to get results back within that frame of time, I mean, that's a pretty good turnaround. I hope. What I don't know is if, how, like, we'll get results, but will they include, um, The most recent [01:29:00] strandings?

[01:29:00] I, I don't think so. So I think it's gonna kind of be like a, it's gonna be more like a trickle than a, than a than a full dump. But, you know, you know, pressure like this. And again, this letter from, I mean, again, it's, it's worth reiterating how important this is for senators who support renewable energy, have supported offshore wind, um, in the past to, to step out of, out of the box, so to speak.

[01:29:30] And, and, and kind of put this extra pressure on. It's, it's, it's going to speed up what people like me can then get out to the public.

[01:29:41] Tyler: And for the, the groups that are out there, do you think this will satisfy them at all? Will this, um, give them. Will it buy time for them or will they still be dissatisfied with justice request and we'll want still like a moratorium on, on all the surveying.[01:30:00]

[01:30:01] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, they want a moratorium on the surveying now. Um, and I think as we discussed at this point, especially after the, the eight dolphins that stranded in, in yeah. South Jersey, um, the other week, I, I have kind of transitioned to thinking that a pause is probably a good thing personally. That's, that's a, that's a personal feeling, just Yeah.

[01:30:24] Being here and seeing the, the level of, um, just the sort of the momentum that it's given, given these groups. I mean, and the, and the, the level of concern. So, um, yeah.

[01:30:40] Tyler: Forgot, forgot the question. Go. What was the No, no, no. Whe whether it satisfy them. So, right. I, I think it's, it, you answered it, it it's definitely still a, a concern and I think everyone kind of wants to see, you know, and, and, and to be honest, that's a great way to test whether, [01:31:00] you know, if they do stop and then the, the, the dolphins and whales do stop washing short.

[01:31:05] That is in itself a bit of a test, you know?

[01:31:09] Andrew: Totally, totally. That's, that's what they, that's what they're saying. Um, I, I wanted to add to that. I was at a, um, they handed over a petition of 500,000 signatures yesterday at the Wow. Trent, Trenton State House, and I was there and it just sort of talking to a few folks and sort of gauging one of the speakers mentioned this letter.

[01:31:33] And it, it kind of just by gauging the crowd, it seemed probably like maybe half the crowd knew about the letter, um, and maybe the other half didn't. But those who do know about it are treating it as a big deal. Um, again, it's not gonna, it's, it, it doesn't, so h their, their concerns or, or their position, no.

[01:31:50] Cause that, that petition is asking for a pause immediately. So I think I did see a couple rumblings on social [01:32:00] media, some of the accounts that are very anti offshore wind, basically saying, wow, can't believe Booker, uh, you know, has done this. So I, I, I think it maybe in the interim, it makes some people feel like someone's finally listening in a sense.

[01:32:20] Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, It's not gonna, it's not gonna satisfy them, and nor should it be if you're an activist advocacy group. You gotta, you gotta keep, keep the pedal down and, and go for it. But, but yeah, I mean, I think it's been, I think it's registered at a, at a decent level that this is a,

[01:32:38] Tyler: this is a shift.

[01:32:41] Well, Andrew, um, we really appreciate you coming back on, uh, with these latest developments. And I obviously would like to continue covering this story as it develops, and we'll definitely be in contact about it, um, as, [01:33:00] uh, as we find out more information.

[01:33:02] Andrew: Cool. You're never gonna get this podcast out because something's going to happen tomorrow and that

[01:33:11] Tyler: Well,

[01:33:12] Andrew: we'll do our best.

[01:33:17] Tyler: Oh, thank you Andrew. Appreciate it. Thanks

[01:33:19] Andrew: Tyler.

[01:33:25] And now

[01:33:26] Tyler: back to our show.

[01:33:30] Um, where can our listeners find you? Uh, normally if they want to check out your work or Yep. Uh, or hire you or whatever, you know, you never know who listeners,

[01:33:40] Andrew: please hire me. I, I am definitely not on the tape from anyone. As a freelance writer, I'll tell you that much. Um, yeah, no, I, I appreciate that, Tyler.

[01:33:48] Uh, you can go to my website. It's just my name, Andrew s lewis.com. Um, and I put up my latest work. I, lately I write for New [01:34:00] Jersey Spotlight News, which is sort of the news arm of New Jersey pbs. Mm-hmm. Um, so we, that's a, that's a pretty regular beat. Uh, I provide basic news stories for them. Magazine stuff.

[01:34:10] I'm. Try to do as much as I can for the New York Times Magazine. And then also Yale Environment 360 is another publication. So, um, you know, if more whale drama happens, I'm sure my name will surface. Uh, for better or worse, I don't know how I feel about that. But any,

[01:34:27] Tyler: any interest going back into surf, uh, riding at all or doing anything that, that, you know, on the mainstream level for it at

[01:34:35] Andrew: least?

[01:34:36] I think Bill Finnegan smashed that for all of us who wanted to do, uh, Finn Finnegan. That was my idea. Damnit, I, I mean, gosh. I mean that's another story, right? It's, I would love to write for surf publications, but what surfers. Beach grit, man. Beach.

[01:34:54] Tyler: No.

[01:34:56] Andrew: Hey, I don't know. Whatever. [01:35:00]

[01:35:00] Tyler: They'll pay you in wax. Yeah,

[01:35:03] Andrew: it's some t-shirts like the old days.

[01:35:05] Tyler: Well, Andrew, uh, again, really appreciate you coming on. Um, this was a great conversation. I really enjoyed learning more about this. And, uh, listeners, uh, definitely go check out Andrew's work and check out some of his articles. They're all well referenced and there's lots of great links to other, other background information, so you could really get in depth here.

[01:35:27] Uh, I was able to do a lot of research based off of your article. Um, and, uh, want to thank Joe here, our engineers recording here at, uh, Rockefeller Center at the Newsstand Studio. Always a pleasure to come in here. And, uh, listeners, uh, don't forget to listen and check out, uh, at Swell Season Surf Radio on Instagram.

[01:35:48]You can also go to our website. Swell season surf radio.com. And uh, we'll also have transcriptions. We've been posting transcriptions of all our shows on the website too, so you can[01:36:00]always use that to reference and, uh, we'll hopefully check you on down line so

 [AL1]Pretty minor, but the sounds the humpbacks make aren’t mid-low frequency sounds. I think I was trying to say that it is mid-low frequency sound sources that humpbacks are sensitive to.

 [AL2]They have agreements with Equinox for… wait for it… natural gas lol: https://orsted.com/en/media/newsroom/news/2022/10/20221027579311

 [AL3]Atlantic Shores is definitely worse. They’re basically a Shell side project.