[00:00:00] Tyler: The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by the Newsstand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.

[00:00:43] Hello and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. For Rockaway residents, many of you are very familiar with our guest, a longtime Rockaway resident, OG documentarian of the people in this community. [00:01:00] You can sometimes find her surfing off the Jetties uptown at Beaches. We will not mention our guest is none other than the amazingly talented Susanna Ray her work on long form documentary projects such as Right coast, a Further shore, and what are the wild waves saying?

[00:01:21] Explore the relationship of people and landscape, and how public space offers opportunities for escape, leisure, and transcendence. Many of her projects have occurred at the intersection of city and water describing how New Yorkers lives are shaped. By the waters that surround the city. Her latest body of work down for the day is now showing at the Baxter Street Camera Club of New York.

[00:01:50] The exhibit gives us an intimate look at the life of beach goers, specifically people who have made their way to Rockaway Beach. It's a [00:02:00] beautiful composition of the people of diverse backgrounds who make up this great city. I would dare call this a love letter to Rockaway and the magic it holds for New Yorkers.

[00:02:12] Susanna, welcome to the

[00:02:13] Susannah: show. Hi, Tyler. Thank you for having me. And I'm already so touched and tickled by, um, the way you described my work, so thank

[00:02:22] Tyler: you. Why thank you. You know, I lifted a lot off your biography. I kidding. Well, I was

[00:02:26] Susannah: talking about the part that you wrote, the love letter part, which was so dear.

[00:02:30] And I think that that's really, um, really accurate. And it's funny, I, I never did this body work, but I always thought I wanted to have, uh, make a series called I Love You. And just like that moment where you see someone on the subway or the street and you wanna make their portrait and it's just about loving, you know, the themselves and their moment.

[00:02:47] Um,

[00:02:48] Tyler: I, I would like to see that too. There we go. We did, we just, did we just witness the birth of a new, uh, new project? Well,

[00:02:55] Susannah: my teacher in grad school was Joel Sternfeld and he did a body of work called [00:03:00] Stranger Passing, which is so phenomenal. And, um, I, I think that's what that work is, so I don't think I need to make it.

[00:03:07] Okay. I just think about it, but

[00:03:09] Tyler: yeah. Well, I just wanna say like, I really love the topic of this project you've taken on. Um, you know, to me it, it speaks to everything great about Rockaway in, in the summer particularly, like Sure. I mean, the lineup is a bit more crowded in the summer and there are are not many places in the world, but like there that there's not many places in the world where you can see such a melting pot of people on the beach and enjoying the same pleasures together.

[00:03:38] And like, it feels so obvious, this kind of subject. But it's funny because it's a topic that I think many of us take for granted. And I'm curious like how this project and topic percolated for you. Like, how did it, how did it catalyze, you know, in your head like, oh, I need to cover the people who are coming down here rather than the people in the water or the people who live there.

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] 'cause it seems like your past projects have kind of delved into those things as well. Yeah, I,

[00:04:06] Susannah: I, um, I think that the beach in the summer was something I just hadn't thought about as photographic material, um, because I was so involved in other things, like mm-hmm. I came to the Rockaways through surfing, and then I did the, um, series right coast that was sort of the first body of work in these, in this stream of, um, photo photographs about New York City and, and its waterways.

[00:04:34] Um, so it just didn't, it, it, it weirdly didn't occur to me. And I think that was because I was like living there. Yeah. And, and I was also having this problem that you have when you live in a beach town, which is the frustration of the population, you know? Quintupling or more on a summer day. And so I think the [00:05:00] privilege that I had of living in this beach town was overtaking my ability to see what was going on.

[00:05:05] Um, and there was just a moment after living in Rockaway for 10 years where I think I was taking a bike ride. It was late in the day, so it was like cool enough to go bike on the boardwalk. And I saw this family or many families coming off the. The beach and I thought, oh my God. Like this is something, this is really something.

[00:05:25] And you know, they, people were dragging sheets that were covered in sand, they were probably gonna end up in the garbage can and all their stuff in their children, people are happy, but they're also exhausted. The kids are probably like so tired and hungry that they're crying. And it was just amazing. It was all of the stuff that makes up a, a summer moment at a city beach.

[00:05:48] And, um, I just kind of like my eyes opened up and, and meanwhile I had, unbeknownst to myself, been gathering this material in my brain for years. And yeah, that is [00:06:00] the way that I work in general and like a further shore. By the time I started taking those photographs, which are made all around, um, the outer boroughs of New York City.

[00:06:10] Already, you know, I'd already formulated some of the ideas because of just driving to visit my parents in Manhattan. Mm-hmm. So you go over like the North Channel Bridge? Yeah. Between Broad channel and Howard Beach. And I would see people making offerings in the water for various Hindu holidays. I was like, that's a, that's something.

[00:06:28] But you know, people birdwatching, pe What? What is this Weird creek down near in Flushing Queens as I'm driving north to go to like the Bronx Museum because I have a thing there. What's that about? So, you know, like the same thing happened in Rockaway where I was just gathering stuff and shoving it in the back of my brain.

[00:06:49] And in fact, for a further shore, one of the latest later images in the series was made down. Um, In the beaches around Beach [00:07:00] ninth Street. Mm-hmm. Where it's like Reynolds Reynolds channel. Yeah. Channel. Yeah. I always can't remember if it's the inlet or the channel. Yeah. So it was Reynolds channel and I had taken a bike ride just for exercise.

[00:07:10] Right. I get down there, it's like maybe three o'clock, um, on a weekend. And the beach was, you know, very small at that point in time. Mm-hmm. There were these giant dunes and the beach was covered in people and umbrellas, like an unreasonable amount of people in a very small amount of space. And then in, in the, um, channel itself, there's a dredging kind of platform boat thing, this giant behemoth.

[00:07:36] And it reminded me of this Joel Sternfeld photo that he made in, in Texas of a woman. Sunbathing on the beach on a Shez lounge with a super tanker in the background. So this was my like poor woman's Joel Sternfeld. So I see this scene and I'm like, holy moly, I gotta go home and get my camera and come back.

[00:07:54] So I bike home. Yeah. So it's like a nine mile round trip. Yes. So I bike [00:08:00] home and I was gonna drive back, but I knew there was no parking. So then I bike all the way back. With all your gear? Yeah. Well it's like a, not too much. Alright. It, it's a medium format camera, so it's heavy. Yeah. It was just the second round of biking, but I was like in a fever.

[00:08:13] Yeah. So I had to go make this picture. So that was in the series of further shore, which, you know, mostly I had made that work on, you know, the Staten Island ferry or. Various ferries on the East River. Um, photographs made in Long Island City, along the water's edge. Random streams, threading behind a steel scrap yard in the Bronx.

[00:08:37] Yeah. Like, you know, anywhere I could find a little rivette of water, I was, I was like, I'm down. I'm gonna go there. So this, I sort of excluded the ocean front because I thought, well I already did that in right coast and that's a different thing. That's not really the same, same thing. Right. So this was the only beach picture really?

[00:08:55] Other than one I made in Staten Island of a man in his underpants. [00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Tyler: Tidy

[00:09:01] Susannah: whites or boxers? No, they're like blue tidies. Okay. And then around the elastic it says something like light up. It's so weird. His, he had gone to. Throw something for his dog and he accidentally threw his own shoe in the water. It was like so weird.

[00:09:21] And he stripped down and he was getting ready to go after his own shoe. And I'm like, can I make your picture? And he said, yes. And so that's in my book, which is called New York Waterways, but it's the same, it's just a different title of the same body work. So I made this Reynolds channel picture, and I think that planted the seed for down for the day.

[00:09:44] Yeah. And that congestion, that number of people, everyone's going in a million different directions, bodies in the water, people fishing, like the Maxim maximal element was so amazing to me. So by the time I went and [00:10:00] actually started down for the day in 2016, I think I'd already like understood what needed to happen.

[00:10:06] Yeah. I just, there had to be a catalyst and I had to feel ready and I had to know, I usually, when I go into a project, I kind of know what I wanna do, right? There's some discovery along the way, but there has to be enough of a solid idea that I, and it has to be an idea that's complicated enough that I'm gonna want to keep pushing it forward.

[00:10:25] Tyler: Do, do you write it down those ideas, or is it something that just sticks around in your head and like you kind of work through it? Mm-hmm. Like, I don't know if it's like Yeah. A planned out thing at all, or if it's, it sounds like it's just more bouncing around. It's more

[00:10:39] Susannah: in my head. I mean, sometimes I'll have like, I like for a further shore, I had a Google map where I was like, that's awesome.

[00:10:48] Dropping pins or. I could barely make it fun. You know, I don't how to work these things, but it's like it's, and I can't get rid of that map Now. I'm like, I don't need it anymore. I don't know how to delete

[00:10:58] Tyler: it. And [00:11:00] your Google directions in the car show up and you end up like, no, I didn't wanna go to the creek.

[00:11:04] You know, there's, yeah,

[00:11:04] Susannah: exactly. I don't need to go to New Town Creek. I've already canoed with a dog like I did that.

[00:11:09] Tyler: It's, it's interesting actually, our last guest, uh, John Carlo, by the way, he did a whole story about one of the waterways around, uh, the city actually is like this little canal, kind of just in New Jersey though.

[00:11:23] But you'd pass this canal on the commuter train and you'd see a surfboard that was just there, hanging there, and it was buoyed there for like years. And it was always like this go surfboard. And this, he writes about like how this newscaster who surfed. Wanted to explore this and like did this whole investigation of the surfboard and why it was there.

[00:11:45] Did he get it? Yeah, it was, was it rideable? The board was, it was a foam top. It was a phony board, and some guy who worked at this junk junkyard behind it had put it there just to keep track of the tide and Oh my God,

[00:11:57] Susannah: I love that. It is really, I

[00:11:59] Tyler: love that. [00:12:00] It is a really cool story. I'll, I'll send you the link to it, but it is fascinating, you know?

[00:12:04] Yeah. I find it interesting. I, I wanna actually segue into that to the further short because it's, it's interesting how like there's all these like subcultures around the waterfronts around the city, you know, like I imagine like when you were going to explore all these things, you'd find like people and culture in some of these areas, you know, there that would make the waterfront whatever it is to them, you know, it's almost like imagining.

[00:12:32] It being something else. Mm. You know? Yeah.

[00:12:35] Susannah: I like that you said that. 'cause I never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. And I, I do have an interest in subculture in general. Mm-hmm. Which is really just a fancy way of saying like, finding your people. Yeah. And so how we create identities for ourselves and, you know, right.

[00:12:52] Coast was, it's, it's work that's about the New York City surfing community. Yeah. But it's also about my own finding of my own [00:13:00] identity. Mm-hmm. It's the most sort of autobiographical in, in, in an indirect way. So with a further shore, when I was coming up with that project, I had been gathering in my head these moments that I was seeing that mm-hmm.

[00:13:16] Were kind of specific little. Subcultures or genres of people. And I even, for a brief moment, I thought I was gonna do a project on birders, and I haven't given up on that, but I went to Jamaica Bay Wildlife Preserve. Yeah. And I went up to some birders and tried to photograph them. And they're not the most photographed.

[00:13:37] Yeah. Like, not at all. They're not,

[00:13:39] Tyler: you're gonna disturb the birds, you're gonna scare the birds. Well, they

[00:13:42] Susannah: were talking amongst themselves, but it just, they're, I think they're not external people. They're very internal people. Mm. And so I did a little bit, I think I photographed like a license plate or, you know, that said bird n y c and.

[00:13:58] You know, some other stuff that [00:14:00] was not good. And, and so I'm like, well, that's not a project. Um, and, and, and, but I think what I was really doing was observing activity that was happening adjacent to the water. So then when I made a further shore, I still didn't get to photograph any birders. 'cause they're kind of squirrely people.

[00:14:18] Sorry, birders. No, I actually, I mean, I'm really, you know, I read a beautiful column, um, about Christian, I forget his last name. Um, but he's a black birder. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's just so great. And there's another book that I have by another black birder who is just a wonderful writer of natural history.

[00:14:40] Right. And he's from the south and there's all kinds of meditation on race and birding and birding while black. And so, like, I'm not, I'm definitely not anti birder is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. But they're not easily photographed. I'm not, I haven't given up. You almost

[00:14:53] Tyler: have to be like a birder. To observe them.

[00:14:56] Susannah: Yes. You know? Yes. Allah, Danny Lyon [00:15:00] in his bike rider series. Yeah. Yeah. Like you. And so what I did find though was like fishing park rangers. Yeah. The, I did a lot of outreach for that project. I would just email random people, like, Hey, um, you guys do like pub open, public canoeing on the, on Newtown Creek?

[00:15:26] Like, can I bring my cameras? Mm-hmm. Or Hey, you run a boat building program for youth in the Bronx and you have open community rowing, and I wanna come, but I'd like to take pictures of that. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, just sort of clearing in those situations, clearing, um, the access. So yeah, it was definitely an opportunity to meet people who have lives that are so different than mine.

[00:15:49] And that's something that I'm always interested in. So even like, one of my favorite photos from that series is of three people. Um, and the photo's called Prayers and offerings because they're doing a Hindu [00:16:00] ritual. Mm-hmm. They're making an offering, um, in Jamaica Bay, uh, you know, on that little beach between Broad Channel and Howard Beach.

[00:16:08] And I, you know, that was a hard one where I really was like, they are in a religious moment. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna be a jerk. But it was so beautiful what they were wearing in the water. And it was a mother and a a, a adult son. And adult daughter. And I just asked them like, You know, I said, this is what I'm doing and can I make your photo?

[00:16:30] And they were the, the young people were really interested in arts and culture. So it was like I had this maybe assumption that they might not understand and in fact they were New Yorkers. Yeah. Like they totally got it. Yeah. So they just allowed me to be there and be a witness for what they were doing.

[00:16:46] So

[00:16:47] Tyler: it's a tribute too to them, you know? Yeah. It's almost like in some ways you're paying home edge to what they're doing. Yeah.

[00:16:52] Susannah: Yeah. And that's something that I want to do always. And, and with down for the day, I really wanted to make an [00:17:00] homage, or like this love letter as you put it to all of the people that come down for the day and take that term, which has.

[00:17:07] You know, a very pejorative connotation. I, I was

[00:17:11] Tyler: gonna say, like, that term has, well, I, I was gonna ask like, it, it has some negative connotation for, from a local's perspective. Yeah. But from a person outside, that's just what you do. Yeah. I'm going down for the day and that's a positive thing for them. Yeah.

[00:17:27] So it's fascinating that, you know, you're taking something that, that, you know, could be interpreted either way. And I think turning it, putting a real positive spin on it.

[00:17:37] Susannah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like language. My parents were writers and or, um, and, you know, editors in their careers. So language was like a big part of the house growing up.

[00:17:47] Yeah. And so when I make a body of work, I'm always thinking about how do I articulate what I'm doing? And where does a, a title, a project title do that? Where does the name of the image, you know, [00:18:00] serve? I mean, I don't want to be text reliant. Yeah. I'm also very concerned about, You know, making sure that the image speaks for itself.

[00:18:08] Um, but I just thought, you know, wow, I've never heard this term before until I moved to Rockaway. And like now, you know, it gets leveled. Ugh. That d f D took my, you know, parked in front of my driveway and I had to call the precinct and get the car towed and, you know, whatever. Just like complaints. And of course I, you know, I admit to having made them myself, um, because there are frustrations that come Yeah.

[00:18:32] With living in Rockaway, you know, in, in the summertime, you know, that in terms of, it is not a place that is actually able to sustain the amount of, of human traffic that's coming through it, and yet it survives and endures, which is like a very Rockaway thing. So I, I just, you know, there's so much crazy stuff that happens on the beach that there is kind of a reason that that term exists.

[00:18:58] But I also want to [00:19:00] say, Hey, people are self-actualizing right now. Yeah. And they're really. Creating something for themselves that they can't have on a daily basis. Like, we are so lucky we get to have this. So I just wanted to give them the turn back.

[00:19:14] Tyler: It's, it's interesting 'cause like, as a, as a, uh, new resident of Rockaway, basically myself, like, so I've, I've had the feeling of being an outsider for the most part because I, you know, I'm not from Rockaway.

[00:19:30] I, I grew up surfing New York, but not Rockaway. I was Long Beach more. And, you know, for the last 20 something years I've been surfing Rockaway, but as an outsider, you know, coming in. Yeah. And now that I live there, I find it, I don't know. To me, I, I am so proud of living there because I see the diversity on the beach.

[00:19:53] I see. All the cool stuff going on. Like there's music, there's guys selling [00:20:00]nutcrackers, there's, you know, there's people dancing, there's people playing volleyball. There's like so much going on and so much color and so many different shapes and sizes of people and so much going on and so many things.

[00:20:13] All of them are, you know, I hate to use the term melting pot, but it's like the melting pot of the city. Mm-hmm. Where New Yorkers from all over can come to this one place from all different backgrounds and enjoy the same thing, you know? Which is rare

[00:20:30] Susannah: actually. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And we live in, I forget, I feel like I've read that New York is one of the most segregated cities mm-hmm.

[00:20:37] In the United States, if not the most. And um, or maybe it was our school system. Either way, it's obviously not, uh, anything that we should be bragging about. No, it's a problem. These public spaces that I'm interested in are where those divisions tend to melt. Yeah. Melt away. And the communal [00:21:00] experience of the beach.

[00:21:00] I've loved the beach since I was a baby. I grew up going to the beach like, you know, every summer. The best part of the summer was when my parents took us away and, you know, I, I lived, um, in Washington, DC and Virginia mm-hmm. Until I was eight. So we used to go to North Carolina, and then when we moved up here, we moved to Westchester and we lived in Larchmont in this little house in the middle of town.

[00:21:23] And the, the Long Island sound was like a mile or a mile and a half away. And, you know, we would, when school was dragging on through June mm-hmm. Like, we'd come home and my mom would take us down to the beach for a couple hours. Like, you know, it's calm, it's not a Yeah. A surfing beach. But, um, you know, I just, that's such a fundamental part of my life and, and the idea that, The joy that I feel is being felt by every single person around me.

[00:21:52] Yeah. Is like, I am like high on it right now. Totally. Totally. Because we, you know, every human gets up in the [00:22:00] morning and, and you maybe are having an, some people have an easier life than others, but we all have our struggles and, and we're looking for this respite from like the grind. And New York City is a very grindy city.

[00:22:15] I just walked here through Midtown, the Griest and I was like, oh my God, I'm dying. Like the Midtown is killing me. Oh my gosh. I know. And you know, so you, so the beach and the Rockaways or Coney Island or Staten Island, wherever you're gonna go, it's like what a magical asset that we have. And it's such a fundamental part of New York City.

[00:22:36] And it's so funny because people don't think of New York City as a place that's a water place. No. Even though we have an incredible amount of coastline, They don't think of it as a beach town, but yet we have these like world renowned beaches. I mean Coney Island, the legends of photography Yeah. That have draped across that sand.

[00:22:55] Gary Win, grant dn, arb bests, like, you know, Harvey [00:23:00] Stein just put out a book of his Coney Island work. You know, um, Leon Levinstein, like all these amazing, you know, kind of street photographers, Ouija like mm-hmm. The beaches in New York City are really well documented, and yet we still don't think of New York City as a beach

[00:23:15] Tyler: place.

[00:23:16] It, it is so funny and it's, what I also wanna point out is a outside of the city, the moment you leave the city's municipality, the beaches are closed off. Right. You know, long Beach Pay, pay to play. Yeah. Long Beach. You gotta pay like 20 bucks a person almost, you know, it's like, Really expensive. Go to the beach Hamptons.

[00:23:36] You gotta pay, uh, you know, or you can't even park at the beaches. Yeah. 'cause they're only for town residents. Montauk as well, uh, you know, uh, Robert Moses a state park, but you need a car to get there. For the most part. You can take a

[00:23:48] Susannah: bus and it's, and there's still a parking fee.

[00:23:51] Tyler: And there's the parking fee for Jones Beach, Robert Moses, all of those.

[00:23:55] So it's, it's free. Yeah. In Rockaway. It's free in Coney Island. Yeah.

[00:23:59] Susannah: Which is [00:24:00] huge. Yes. And the free. Thing is what makes it be the place that it is. And it is the living room of the city with the air conditioner is the ocean. And for people who don't have the luxury of living in an air conditioned apartment, yeah.

[00:24:18] It's an absolute necessity.

[00:24:20] Tyler: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it, it exposes people to new things too, I think. You know, I mean, yeah. I didn't know

[00:24:27] Susannah: what a Nutcracker was. I still haven't had one and I don't drink. So Yeah. At this point I, I mean, I did, you know, for years, but I was like, I was not gonna go there. It's now, it's too late now.

[00:24:40] Now I'm, you're not missing now non drinker.

[00:24:42] Tyler: You, you're, you're fine. Don't worry. You're, you, you're, you're, you're not missing out on the headache the next day. Yeah. You know, um, you know, it's, it, it, what I think is also very interesting is, is that your R coast was firmly focused on surfers. This almost makes the [00:25:00]surfing and surfing world of, of Rockaway kind of liminal, you know, it's like almost in the background.

[00:25:05] It's, it's a, it's a backdrop to what

[00:25:08] Susannah: the people are. Yeah. It's barely in there. There's, yeah. I don't even think it's on my website. It's not like a final edit picture. I have one image of this young woman in a bikini, she's kind of backlit and she's carrying a foamy surfboard on her head. Mm-hmm. But that might be the only one in the series because I wasn't photographing surfing.

[00:25:27] Yeah. And the thing with right coast, I mean, uh, you know, that series, it really captures Rockaway and particularly captures Rockaway pre Hurricane Sandy. Mm-hmm. But it is about a very. It's a community that's very welcoming, but it is a very exclusive kind of world. And I think when people respond to that work, it's because they're like, oh my God, you know, that's crazy.

[00:25:53] I've never seen that world. You know, that's how I've already brought up Danny Lyon's bike riders. Like, I feel like that when I see [00:26:00] that work, and I am glad I made it, but I don't wanna make it anymore. And I, I want, I, I really wanna make work that's about more. Communal experience and right coast, we were having a communal experience.

[00:26:18] Yeah. And I think those seeds were planted, but most of that work also notably, was made pre motherhood. Yeah. So the last like year after I of that work, I was making a little bit of images and I had had Bettina, my daughter. Um, and you know, I was kind of fizzling at that point. And then Hurricane Sandy came and it was like, you're done.

[00:26:39] That era is over. You can stop now

[00:26:44] Tyler: and we will be right back. And now back to our show. Um, let me ask then, like, you've seen the evolution of Rockaway and when you first moved out here were the beaches as [00:27:00] crowded and as, uh, vibrant as it feels right now, as when you first experienced it. And that is, so have you seen that evolution?

[00:27:09] Susannah: Wow, that is such a great question. And I'm casting my mind back, and I think, no, they weren't. And you know, one of the things that Hurricane Sandy did was it forced a renovation of the Rockaway infrastructure. Creative

[00:27:26] Tyler: destruction, I believe, right. Is the term. Right? Yeah.

[00:27:29] Susannah: So, you know, like nobody ate food at the concessions.

[00:27:33] No. I mean, you would have to, you were like taking your life in your hand because it would be like this flattened piece of what my mom would call mouse meat and on a, you know, and the concessions were monopolized by, you know, it was like really old. It was exactly the food that I expected to get at the beach.

[00:27:52] Yeah. Growing up. Totally, totally. So then Hurricane Sandy came and then. I don't remember at what point, you know, they, you know, [00:28:00] they were rebuilding the boardwalk and they reopened the concessions and then the concessions got taken over by that consortium of folks. Yeah. Like with including Marybell and, um, you know, the, and Chris.

[00:28:12] Yeah. And, and, and all of a sudden there was like hipster food. Yeah. I,

[00:28:16] Tyler: well I feel like Taco Beach was like one of the first to really go in there, you know? Right.

[00:28:22] Susannah: And that was on 96th Street? Yeah. And I lived on 96th. And you know what's so crazy is that I don't think I ever went there until they had moved into the surf club.

[00:28:33] Yeah. Because, I mean, talk about like reactionary stupidity. We were like, who are these hipsters down the street? I'm so embarrassed confessing this because like now I'm like, oh my God, talk away. You know? It's so good. And, and it was such a, you know, like, I think. We moved, you know, there were people living in the Rockaways before I got there.

[00:28:56] Yeah. But when we moved, it was like, I was always [00:29:00] moving one or two steps ahead of the crowd as an artist. Yeah. So I started out living on Fifth Avenue in Park Slope. I lived in this crazy building over a hardware store. The owner was like weirdly in love with me and would leave me messages. Can't blame him.

[00:29:15] Can't blame him. Susie, it's Mr. C, I have a present for you. And I was like, fuck God. So there was like lots of crazy stuff going on there. And then I, I was paying like $700 a month for this little weird one bedroom where the bathroom was like, Off the kitchen, but didn't have a sink in it. And, and then I ne I wanted more space, so then I moved down to Kensington and mm-hmm.

[00:29:40] You know, just like there were no artists there. No. Although actually my next door neighbor was this crazy artist. She was the, so talented, totally lunatic, but other than her, we were just like a seat adrift in Kensington. Yeah. And what's crazy is, like, now my brother and his husband own their apartment there.

[00:29:58] Yeah. And it's [00:30:00] all, oh, Kensington is upscale. I mean, I know. So, but that only happened after I left and I left and I, I lived a couple different places in Kensington and then I moved out to the Rockaway. So like, we get out to Rockaway and it was totally d i y, like our idea of a good time was to go to this total dive bar that's on the corner of 90th, I forget.

[00:30:22] Oh. Used to be there. I, I, I can't believe I'm blanking on the name of it right now, but it was a, they were like dealing drugs in the bathroom and. It was not a good place to hang out or the first time my husband and I went out and it was not a date, it was not a date. We were just friends. But we went to the iris circle, which is now gone and replaced by condos.

[00:30:43] Yeah. And, and they had an O T B window and the iris circle. So my husband, who was then my friend Yeah, he bet on some horse at the O T B window and like won money. And I, I had already had dinner, so I was just getting pie. So he paid for my pie. And there's like a horrible joke that [00:31:00] could be made now. Oh, we're gonna

[00:31:01] Tyler: cruise past.

[00:31:02] Yeah, we're gonna go past that. Okay, fair enough. He paid for your pie. Yeah.

[00:31:05] Susannah: Yeah. We'll leave it at that. So, so we were there and like I, everyone, you know, I says, oh, you cook so well. I'm like, I had to learn how to cook. Like there was really, you know, there were just like Irish. Pubs. Yeah. With hamburgers.

[00:31:19] That was so, we all cooked for each other. We had crazy dance parties. I mean, Lois and Scott, like they had, there were some blowout crazy art parties where they would have people come over and install art like on the walls of their, the loft room and the second floor. There was like a, a. There were these parties where we would end up having what's called an ass off.

[00:31:44] I'm sorry, like that. I'm, but it was, go on, it was just like ridiculous. 11:00 PM hanging out with your like friends in your, you know, I guess like late twenties, early thirties. And you know, you'd just be doing a dance like show off the high, it [00:32:00] was so dumb. It was just the height of dumbness,

[00:32:02] Tyler: but it was white, white people twerking basically.

[00:32:04] Susannah: Uh, probably there was, it was a little bit more mixed than that, but yeah, it was just like d i y. Yeah. Fun. So I think when the whole point of this digression is like when Talk Away showed up, it was like this thing that we had made for ourselves. Yeah. Now everyone was gonna know about it. Yeah. And I, again, I wanna like openly apologize for that attitude 'cause it's super obnoxious given the fact that like, people have been living on the Rockaway Peninsula for, you know,

[00:32:33] Tyler: a very long time.

[00:32:33] Yes, yes. A very, and have, have seen it go through. Yeah. Many, many, many changes, many

[00:32:39] Susannah: iterations. Yeah.

[00:32:40] Tyler: It's, it's interesting. Like, I wanna first, like, I wanted to dive back into time and like first figure out how did you get into surfing? You know, how did it present itself to you? Because I think this is part of a larger conversation though that I think is really interesting.

[00:32:56] Susannah: Yeah. Um, I had been [00:33:00] dating somebody mm-hmm. And it was not a good breakup and I wanted to do something different and I didn't wanna cut my hair or d mm-hmm. Which is usually like what you do. And I think the New York Times ran, its like annual article about surfing in the Rockaways and people renting bungalows in the twenties and, you know, um, that old bungalow colony.

[00:33:22] And I was like, I wanna do that. So I called the Rockaway Beach Surf Shop, the one on one, 16. Yeah. And they didn't give Tommy Sena. Yeah. He didn't answer the phone. It was like, it was his wife. His wife, yeah. And she was like, we don't give lessons. Call this guy named Tank in Long Beach. I was like, okay. Um, and, and mind you, I'm like 30 years old.

[00:33:44] Yeah. But I just, I wanted to try it. So I go to Long Beach on the train. It takes forever getting there from Brooklyn. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. And it's just so hot. And I meet up with this guy who's about six feet tall with this like [00:34:00] shock of blonde hair. Mm-hmm. And he pushes my 30 year old tush into waves. And I stood up on that board and I was flying and I was like, this is for me.

[00:34:13] And, and so I, I took a second lesson with him. Left that lesson, went to Long Beach Surf Shop, bought a really bad pop out eight foot board, um, finagled them into giving me a free board bag. Sweet. And I know, I know I'm not a bargainer, I don't know how I did that. And then, and that, and was like schlepping that board on the Long Island Railroad.

[00:34:36] So then I, I started going out to Rockaway instead. And the first time I got off the subway, off the shuttle in Rockaway, I thought, okay, this is an interesting neighborhood I'm putting interesting in quotes. And, you know, it was definitely unfamiliar and it's, it's a gritty looking neighborhood. Yeah. Not less so now, but even, even still, you know, there's some grit still.

[00:34:59] It's, [00:35:00] yeah. It's not, it's, it's the not glamorous. Yeah. And I am like, uh, this is so okay. And I go up to the beach and. I don't really remember like my first surf session in Rockaway, which was probably just me like falling down better to forget that one. Yeah. And there was, what I do remember is that the surf, there was no official surf beach.

[00:35:22] So there were swimmers in the water. Yeah. And I remember getting into a wave standing up on my board and riding toward people, making out in the ocean. And I'm like, that's awesome. This is dangerous. But I was like, I love this place. I love this place. It's weird. It's so weird here. It's so funky. There's so many cross currents, like it's like the ocean, you know where a currents going one way and there's another current going another way and they hit each other and you don't know what's gonna happen.

[00:35:52] And Rockaway's like that, like every day. Yeah. But it's beautiful. And then this was the era of the, um, [00:36:00] surf forum, the N Y N J Surf forum and, and New York surf.com. Right? There were two. Yeah. Yeah. There were

[00:36:06] Tyler: two. New York surf.com was first Adam Zaro, but then yes, will, will ha you know, then will Hallett, uh, starred N Y N J?

[00:36:13] Yes. Both

[00:36:13] Susannah: are great. I forgot about that. And I started on New York Surf, but I have to say like, it was, uh, brutal. Brutal so mean. And you know, I had that newbies enthusiasm, which any surfer in their right mind would wanna crush that. Like, I get it, chisel.

[00:36:33] Tyler: Oh man, what a great callback.

[00:36:36] Susannah: But thank you. I knew that would hit so, so the surf forms, both of them. Were a place where I was able to find this community and I pretty soon, like there was some party happening at the flea bungalow mm-hmm. Or something was going on, and I basically invited myself and fell in with them right away.

[00:36:58] 'cause it was like the Freaks and [00:37:00] Geeks bungalow of Rockaway and the, and I ended up joining a different bungalow. I met this woman, Elizabeth

[00:37:05] Tyler: Ella. Can, can you, can you, uh, just explain to some of our listeners what the bungalows were? Oh, yeah. You know,

[00:37:12] Susannah: um, the summer housing in Rockaway were these bungalows, like little shacks.

[00:37:17] And many of them, well not many of them are gone now. Yeah. They've been torn down. They've been enlarged. Um, but there's still some that exist in people's backyards. Yeah. And those get rented out to groups of surfers. And so you would have 10 people in a bungalow share. So your outlay was, it was like your vacation home for very little money, but you just had to share it with a lot of people.

[00:37:39] A lot of surfboards and a lot of smelly wetsuits. Yeah. So it was in 2004 that Elizabeth Ello, who's an amazing photographer, um, she, I remember she was standing in front of this brown house on 90th, and she was wearing this like cotton kimono bathrobe. She looked so cool. Ooh. And you know, she was [00:38:00] like, Hey, we're doing a bungalow share for the winter.

[00:38:02] Do you wanna do it initiation? I was like, I'm in,

[00:38:08] Tyler: it's a hundred dollars a month. Can you do it?

[00:38:11] Susannah: No. It was like a hundred dollars for like the season. Oh my gosh. Or 300, or maybe it was 300. It was so little money, Tyler. It was like, there was no way I could not do it. So we had a bungalow that was sort of in the back on 91st, which is still a, an act of bungalow with some awesome people in it.

[00:38:31] And then we also had this house on 90th, which wasn't winterized. Mm-hmm. So that's where we kept our boards. So the boards got stored on a mattress and then we had the bungalow on, on 91st. And then also on 90th was this bungalow that got called the flea bungalow. And it was named after the sand fleas, which was this like mascot that this guy James Scheuer drew.

[00:38:52] And, and it was just a site of mayhem and, and wonderful dysfunction and like so many memories. It's basically how I met my [00:39:00] husband was through this crew of people. And we also would get together in Manhattan at bars in the winter, you know, as called it team desk Rider. Yeah. So people would meet after work and get together and you know, like you, you, you weren't on a surfing team No.

[00:39:15] You were riding the desk. So that's where team, team desk writer came from. Yeah. So I just like really out of this incredible force of will, like, inserted myself into this community.

[00:39:27] Tyler: I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's so awesome.

[00:39:31] Susannah: Yeah, and I mean, I'm still friends with people from those early days. I'm married to one of them.

[00:39:35] Mm-hmm. We have a child and you know, people bought houses. Um, you know, some people made kids, other people didn't. And we, you know, there was just a block party on 92nd and I found myself at the table with a lot of those old friends. I mean, people like, you know, this woman Christy Dickerson, who's the one who told me like, you should go out with Rob.

[00:39:57] Tyler: Really? [00:40:00] Christy did

[00:40:00] Susannah: that. Nice. Christy did that. Christie did that, that she was like, you should, you should. She said You should go out with Rob. You both like books.

[00:40:10] Tyler: It's a start. It's a

[00:40:11] Susannah: starting point. I was like, that doesn't say a lot of good things about our friend circle that he's the only other one.

[00:40:20] Tyler: Well, I think it's interesting 'cause like it's, it's like. And you, I want to kind of touch on this, like you, you talk about the crushing of the newer surfer spirit and it's interesting, like to go from that time period into now. Yeah. And to see all the different iterations of, of people who've come through New York and learn to surf here.

[00:40:40] Mm-hmm. And like, I always find it interesting 'cause like, especially like newer surfers always are like, why does older surfers have to be so mean? Or why do they have to be so tough or aggressive? And you know, and I'm like, don't worry, you'll get there. You'll be like that too. You know, it's funny like how that evolves over time.

[00:40:59] That [00:41:00] attitude of like kind of, you know, like you start to get comfortable with people, you get comfortable in the area and the local and then all of a sudden someone new. You're kind of it, it's interesting like having to be open all the time to all that change.

[00:41:12] Susannah: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I'm, I like that you said it like that because the thing is, I, I think.

[00:41:20] I can get grouchy, but it's usually when people are really, in a way being disrespectful. Yeah. Not intentionally usually. Yeah. It's usually just really not knowing ignorance. Yeah. And you know, I'm also gonna call out some folks who are renting surfboards and sending people in, in droves into the water without really educating them in any way.

[00:41:41] Yeah. And you know, if you, I would not send my child to drive without having taken driving lessons. You have to take driving lessons. Yeah. You have to get a learner's permit. And I'm not suggesting the bar should be that high, but that's where I, you know, I get grouchy. I, I think local BSS is just [00:42:00] ridiculous.

[00:42:00] Like, you know, people, that's, that's the height of privilege. But what I think is really amazing, and, you know, certainly the guests on your show previously have reflected that, is that not only is the crush the newbie spirit, um, Ethos, has it really been reigned in instead the ethos now? Very much. I think paralleling where we have moved as a society in our best of moments is yeah.

[00:42:26] You know, things like Benny's Club, LA Ruba, like this idea of making more space for more people. Yeah. You know, whether, and that's what Baxter Street Camera Club of New York does, like their mission is to make the, you know, photographic practice, lens-based practice. Something that is, you know, where practitioners of all kinds, their voices are going to be heard.

[00:42:53] Mm-hmm. And their voices are gonna be supported. And so to see that same kind of thing happening in the Rockaways, where now [00:43:00] when I look around the lineup, I mean, it's always been diverse. Yeah. But it's like exponentially changing in a way that can only better the s the sport. Now. I agree. It doesn't mean that it's not dominated by white men.

[00:43:14] I mean, most of my sessions. If there's, you know, someone that I'm annoyed at. Yeah. It's not a beginner. It's like, um, entitled white male who Guilty is

[00:43:23] Tyler: charged. Sorry, I didn't mean to burn you in that one time.

[00:43:27] Susannah: I'm just kidding. No, you haven't done that and you haven't mansplained me either, which is really nice.

[00:43:31] No, I don't do that. Yeah. And I, I mean, I, I, you know, I I, we don't need to go down this road for too long. Yeah. But that is the culture of surfing. And, and again, this is a whole other conversation, but you think about surfing's origins. Yeah. And then you think about what contemporary surfing culture is.

[00:43:50] Mm-hmm. Or has been up until maybe recently, and it's kind of this crazy co-opting Yeah. Of, you know, [00:44:00] native Hawaiian culture. So the fact that it became this white bro sport where if you weren't a white bro mm-hmm. Like surfing a certain way, then you weren't. You know, like con you, you weren't gonna be part, you, you, you would get excluded.

[00:44:14] Yeah. And I mean that's, you know, that stuff certainly goes on still and it goes on in Rockaway. And I mean, you said I surfed uptown, but I don't really surf uptown. I, we call it like Midtown. Midtown. You know,

[00:44:25] Tyler: I was trying to be vague. Yes. You know, I was trying to be vague. You know, I have

[00:44:28] Susannah: surfed uptown, we had friends living, you know, in, in uptown neighborhoods and we'd Yeah.

[00:44:34] They have parking restrictions. Yeah. So we would park in their driveway and go surf up on those beaches. Um, yeah. But I just think that to watch the variety of surfers come through and, and my big thing is if you don't kick your board at my head Yeah. Then I'm cool

[00:44:55] Tyler: and we will be right back. And now [00:45:00] back to our show.

[00:45:02] Um, I wanted to also talk about, um, I. You know, uh, a friend of ours who had passed away mm-hmm. Uh, Tim Hill. Mm-hmm. And how integral he was to the community back then. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, I've wanted to talk about him for a while, but I've never had like, guests on who really knew him. Mm-hmm. And I know you were really close with him and, you know, and this guy for our listeners was like a staple in Rockaway and helped, you know, he, he basically, uh, you know, lobbied for the skate park and community gardens and was like heavily involved.

[00:45:38] And I, I was wondering, like, I, did you meet Tim and I was hoping maybe he could share some good stories about him, because I'd love to kind of have that documented.

[00:45:48] Susannah: I, I'm try, you know, I'm trying to remember how I met Tim. I would assume it was through one of these surf forums. Yeah. Like, that's what's so funny is that, I mean these, I miss those.

[00:45:59] All [00:46:00] my memories are, are, are based on the beach or the water Yeah. Of Tim and this whole circle of people. But I think the way I really got introduced was that way and his ha you know, his screen name, his username was like New York Heart. Like N Y H C? Yeah. New York hardcore. And he had a jacket that said that, and yeah, he was one of the first, I was friends with him before Rob.

[00:46:23] Wow. I might have met Rob through him and Rob, um, you know, my husband, he moved out to Rockaway because of Tim. Yeah. Um, my husband had lost his best friend. His best friend passed away in a kind of tragic way. And um, Tim was like, man, you gotta move out of the East Village and come move out to Rockaway.

[00:46:42] Like there's an apartment opening across the street and Rob just did it. I think I happened to move out maybe a month or two later, and I moved into the apartment with Alex Krinsky and I used to go over those two guys were always hanging out. Yeah. Always hanging out. And the [00:47:00] walk from 96th Street where I was living to, to Tim's house, especially at night, was like sketchy.

[00:47:05] I used to run,

[00:47:07] Tyler: they used to be a pack of wild dogs on the boardwalk. I would mall you. Well that was,

[00:47:10] Susannah: and this guy, Andy Neon was like, you should not move out here. There's wild dogs and the homeless pee in mailboxes. Rob's always like, did they bring a step stool? Like, no. How did they do that? How did they do that?

[00:47:23] Yeah, I just took it at face value. He also told me, don't drive under the elevated because the, the chunks of concrete will hit your car.

[00:47:34] I hope Andy hears this. My car is fine. My mail is fine. Um, yeah, so just like Tim had this, um, Shed in the backyard of the house where he rented and there was some crazy like bukowski's characters in that house. And the, I forget, he, he, oh, he called the shed the bodega. It was kind of pretentious. And he had all his rules, [00:48:00] like written on the wall of the door, I mean, on the door of the bodega.

[00:48:07] And, you know, he would do dinging repair, I think, I think my husband probably like cut his, you know, like Lear cut his teeth on dinging repair with Tim. Mm-hmm. And they, and, and my husband had bought this, um, 10 foot longboard from this character named Justin Schwartz. Oh, yes.

[00:48:25] Tyler: Mr. Schwartz. Yeah. So he bought quite the character as well.

[00:48:27] Susannah: Yes. So you should have him

[00:48:29] Tyler: on if you have it already. Oh, eventually, yeah. Eventually he

[00:48:33] Susannah: bought this 10 foot longboard shaped by, you know, as a Cooper Fish. Yes, from Justin. But it had kind of a A, so Justin sold it to Rob actually very cheaply, and that was a huge project that those two guys were working on in the bodega.

[00:48:47] So they'd be like, come hang out, and they'd be drinking beer around a fire in the backyard. Meanwhile, there was a guy that lived in the house that they called Crack Head Mike or something. I remember. So literally I'm like [00:49:00] running the gauntlet, like running down shore Front Parkway down 91st. Through the alley, which is just pitch dark to get to the backyard, to hang out with these two weirdos who are like drunk on beer and had been doing, you know, huffing resin all day.

[00:49:16] So yeah, I mean, I just remember listening to records with Tim and Hi. He was such a music aficionado. Yes. He loved surfing. He loved to talk story. Um, I mean, he was a really complicated person. He had major issues around drinking and substances. There were times where he disappeared and we honestly were like, is he gonna make it home?

[00:49:39] Yeah. And not, I'm not, now I'm not being funny. It was really scary to have a friend and, yeah. Position. I mean, there's such a happy ending to his story aside from his, you know, untimely death. But I will say the final chapter of his life was like really beautiful. Yeah. To see, to see him meet someone and fall in love [00:50:00] and make a child maybe in an age where he wasn't expecting that.

[00:50:05] And to be the most devoted daddy. And I mean, I also, Tim loved to be an expert on things and I remember him explaining breastfeeding to me after I'd already had a child. And I was like, are you? I think I was like, you need to stop. So, I mean he was a lover of information. Yeah. Of how-tos and you know, he's definitely, absolutely missed.

[00:50:28] He would always be there to help you out. He, you know, he was a great soul. He was also a lot, I mean, we were good, really good friends in the beginning. And then there was a point, I think, 'cause he was still. Drinking a lot. And um, you know, he wasn't someone that I spent time with after that because, you know, there's a point where you're like, this is a not a healthy behavior.

[00:50:48] And yeah.

[00:50:50] Tyler: He had his demons, you know, but very much so. I always, like, whenever I would go to Rockaway, I would just stop park right in front of his place, just knock on the door and he'd be there. Yeah. You [00:51:00] know, and then he'd be like, come sit and hang out. You know? Yeah. He just always had time to, it felt like he always had time, at least.

[00:51:06] Mm-hmm. To kind of spend time with you. Yeah. And to listen and talk. And he was incredible amount of information. He was an encyclopedia of random knowledge. Yeah. It was fascinating, like hanging out with him. I, I met him through like the Surf Rider Foundation in the city. Yeah. Back in the day when there was like a small group and we used to meet at the Patagonia Soho store and like, you know, and just kind of always would hang out and see him at all the surf events and, uh, yeah, I just.

[00:51:39] I always think about him. Uh, one where I live, I look into that backyard now all the time. And I always see, I see the pool there now instead, you know, oh, Brady has a pool. Yeah. Nice. But I look there and I always think, oh man. Like I wish, uh, sometimes I wish I were, uh, could have been out here with him.

[00:51:59] Yeah. You know, he [00:52:00] was like a really special person

[00:52:01] Susannah: I think. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I mean, I just remember surfing in the winter with him and I mean, this is, you know, you go to surf in the winter now, and now I'm gonna sound like cranky old local. Yeah. But you'll be out there with 30 people. Yeah. We would go surf in the winter and it would be like just me and Tim.

[00:52:16] Yeah. Like freezing. No one freezing. It would be freezing. Yes. And like that would be the third session of the day too. I mean, Tim was like the king of ne dwells and that, and I feel like he was tragically born in the wrong era, like, He, I feel like he should have been born in like the beatnik time. Yeah.

[00:52:38] And like become a Kerouac character. Totally. And, and you know, the way you're talking about him inviting you in to talk story, I mean, that was what he lived for. Like, the fact that he worked a straight job was always so mind blowing. I know. And but that's how you, you have to do that to survive in New York and he was like this combination of East Village like [00:53:00] R Crumb.

[00:53:00] Yeah. And, and you know the guy living in the Beach Shack in like a Gidget movie? Yes. Remember there's like the Oh my God. He totally was.

[00:53:08] Tyler: Yeah. He was

[00:53:08] Susannah: totally. And, and he just, you know, I think. If anything, if he could have been freed from some of those, like really earthly obligations to make money and pay rent.

[00:53:20] I mean, those were the things holding him back in life. Yeah. The, the, the places where he was so actualized was like the community garden. Oh my gosh. Working with Surf Rider, I feel like he was involved with getting the Surf Beach established.

[00:53:33] Tyler: Absolutely. You know, which wasn't until like 2005. Yeah. You know?

[00:53:37] Yeah. And it's crazy.

[00:53:38] Susannah: Yeah. So he did so much and I love that you brought him up because I think Rockaway as it is now, is in part because of Tim

[00:53:45] Tyler: Hill. Definitely. He, he helped plant, uh, a lot of seeds. Yeah. You know, skate park that's there now. That's, that's him and, you know, and Jimmy Dowd. Yeah. You know, that's like, That was those guys, you know, they, they, they [00:54:00] planted, they, I mean, it used to be metal, you know, kind of sketchy skate park, but it was something, you know, oh, all those

[00:54:07] Susannah: disintegrating plywood.

[00:54:09] Yeah. Yeah. My daughter has like a toddler be like, wanna go play in the bowl? You're

[00:54:13] Tyler: like, no, no, no. We get tetanus. Let her, we're like, go ahead, go ahead. Um, I, I also, I wanted to, uh, touch on something, uh, that I think might help a lot of listeners potentially. Uh, and it's something that started happening to you last year, uh, and it was, you know, uh, it probably changed you significantly.

[00:54:34] Uh, and I was wondering if you'd be comfortable discussing your, your experience with alopecia and also just kind of, um, you know, explain to our listeners what that is Yeah. And, and how it started to manifest. Yeah.

[00:54:47] Susannah: Um, I've, I appreciate you bringing it up and, and, um, I try to be really open about it. I mean, I still have a lot of shame.

[00:54:57] Anxiety around it. So it's funny because like, [00:55:00] especially through Instagram, I've been able to kind of platform that. Um, but that's, I, by the way,

[00:55:05] Tyler: I, I am like such a, I am so in awe when you do posts about it. Like, I think it's so, I don't wanna say it's brave, you know, it's just wonderful because it's normalizing.

[00:55:15] Yeah. 'cause it happens to a lot of of people. Yeah. You know,

[00:55:19] Susannah: it's funny because I feel like in a way, I mean, putting something on Instagram is really easy. Yeah. Walking, biking from my house to go surf without anything on my head is not easy. Yeah. So, you know, there's always, you know, the thing with the internet, and this is, you know, where people run into trouble, is the anonymity.

[00:55:39] Yeah. But it can also give you cover and let you at least make an initial sort of, Gesture toward exposing yourself in some, in, in some way that's maybe going to create space for more people. Um, so alopecia Tata is a autoimmune disease that I [00:56:00] have, and I actually got it after having C O V I D. Wow. Um, we, we as a family got covid in May of 22, or like late April maybe.

[00:56:12] Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we got to the point where we're like, yeah, our daughter can go to school without a mask and mm-hmm. She did. And then Covid came home with her. She came home one day and she's like, I don't feel good. So she tested positive for Covid and we all went down and, I mean, it was among the sickest I've ever felt.

[00:56:29] Certainly did not need to go to the hospital, but I just felt like someone had run me over. Like with a truck and, and um, you know, really like about four or five days of just being completely laid out and, and the saving graces that even my child was old enough that she didn't have to be waited on hand and foot.

[00:56:49] Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of like every person for themselves in the house. And I remember posting something on Instagram stories where I was like, I just wrote, please someone bring me an ice pop. Like it was a [00:57:00] call into the universe because no one could help me 'cause everyone was sick. So, um, so I had C O V I D and then about five and a half weeks later I got up super early and I had this really high pressure second round job interview for an assistant director level job at the School of the Arts at Columbia.

[00:57:22] Wow. And I had been working elsewhere. I'm gonna not name names, a place that was extremely stressful and I was like, I have to get out. Yeah. It's was a very. Very not good situation for me. Um, so I'm going to the second round job interview, and I get out of the shower and like my hair just started coming outta my hands.

[00:57:45] Wow. And it was coming out in the shower and I had gone to the hairdresser the weekend before and had my hair colored. Um, you know, so I was like, wow. Maybe like the hair dye didn't agree with me. I'm having, and, and you know, whenever you dye your [00:58:00] hair, there's so much kind of stress on your scalp mm-hmm.

[00:58:04] That you are gonna shed. Yeah. Like, that happens. And so I thought, okay, that's crazy. And then it just didn't stop. And the funny thing was, I actually texted my hairdresser and I was like, Ugh, I, I think we're gonna have to stop dyeing my hair. Like my hair is falling out. And she writes back, did you have covid?

[00:58:21] And I said, yeah. She goes, when? And I said like, you know, five weeks ago, she's like, that's you, you, you're having post covid hair loss. So I went and I Googled it, and it's called Intelligent Effluvium. And it's the same thing that happens when women have babies and then their hormones drastically change.

[00:58:41] Or you've heard about people having stress and then losing their hair. Mm-hmm. So what happens in that is, and that's a form of alopecia, and your body basically says you are under stress and we need to conserve your vital organ. So we're gonna shut some stuff down, and so we're gonna turn off your hair.

[00:58:58] So your hair [00:59:00] naturally goes into like a resting phase. So that's why we lose hair, you know, um, in our hairbrushes, like that's the resting hair and then it falls out. But with intelligent effluvium, your hair goes into like an extreme resting phase. So that's what I thought it was, but it wouldn't stop.

[00:59:15] And then I started getting bald patches. So by that point I went to the dermatologist for the second time and they did a scalp biopsy and they were like, yeah, it's alopecia Tata. Which is good news. Yeah. And it's not

[00:59:27] Tyler: something else, at

[00:59:28] Susannah: least, well, I guess, but I'm like, what do you mean this is good news?

[00:59:32] 'cause I Googled it. I mean, I knew what it was. I had a colleague actually Yeah. At, at Hofstra University where I taught for 15 years. And a wonderful colleague Yeah. Who had what's called alopecia Universal, where he has no hair anywhere. Anywhere, yeah. Anywhere. So I was familiar with the condition. So to me, I'm like, this isn't get, you know, good news, but they're like, well, it's not scarring, so it means that your hair can grow back.

[00:59:57] Mm-hmm. And I did all kinds of treatments, [01:00:00] um, cortisone injections in my scalp to try, you know, steroids to try to calm down the inflammation. So, The difference between alopecia, tata and intelligent effluvium ist effluvium is like a temporary thing. Yeah. For reason, and I, you know, I already explained what it is.

[01:00:15] Alopecia, Tata is your body's immune system is mistaking your hair follicles like it's an enemy and it's attacking them and it's causing inflammation. So the inflammation is what makes your hair fall out, and it's a condition where hair can come and go. Mm-hmm. Um, and for me, I lost almost over the next, by August I shaved my head, like I was, I was by, I, I first started experiencing it in, in like maybe early July or late June.

[01:00:49] And then by August I was like, I have to shave my head. I had like a, a braid in the back of my hair that was like the size of a pencil. And I am a woman who has had a giant head of curly [01:01:00] hair my entire life. Like thick, unruly, totally. Just like. Crazy curly hair. And, and I never blew it out. I was, you know, I, I, it was annoying to me to wrestle with it, but I was, I loved my hair and it was really part of my identity.

[01:01:17] So to have that over the course of these months, just like falling out in my hands every day. I mean, I, you know, I'm someone who's had anxiety and depression my whole life, and I went to a low place that I have never gone before. I mean, it was the worst. And, um, you know, luckily I had already had a therapist that I had worked with and she had been on maternity leave and I, I felt so bad, but I was like, I emailed her and told her what was going on and she said, I'll, I'm gonna call you tomorrow.

[01:01:50] And she's like, we're gonna, you know, put you on medication. The medication that you used to take back in, you know, when you were younger. Yeah. And. To be totally blunt, I was [01:02:00] suicidal. I mean, I just was like, I don't understand what's happening with my body and, and it's falling apart and I am so ugly and I'm disfigured and I'm a monster.

[01:02:09] I mean, these are real feelings that I still battle with every day. I'm not depressed the way that I was. I'm very grateful for that. That's a lot of work with my therapist and, you know, support from my family. Also, after a year of it, I, you kind of go, well, this is what it is. Yeah. And, you know, I don't have to shave my legs.

[01:02:28] Wow. I mean, that is, find the silver lining. Um, so it's just been this crazy journey and surfing as part of it because, When it was all happening, I was going out surfing and I was, I mean, I remember being with, in fact, when we invented what's called the swim team, which is surfing women in menopause or in middle age, depending on where you are.

[01:02:53] Um, that was with like Lois and Rebecca and, um, Christie, [01:03:00] you know, all women who are around my age. And I just remember being around these people who are my friends and like this feeling of shame, of trying to move what hair I had left. So it would cover all the bald patches and I mean, Tyler, it was just like humiliating.

[01:03:16] And they just got to a point where I pull, I maybe had cut my husband's hair with a clipper. Yeah. And I was like, should I shave my head? And my daughter goes, no, you're gonna regret it. And I'm like, but I just have this like stringy nonsense left. So, I went downstairs and I just went, boop, on one spot and I'm like, yes, I'm doing it.

[01:03:36] So I, you know, I, it, I left maybe like a half an inch. Yeah. And I, I buzzed it all off and I went back upstairs and I knocked on my daughter's door and she opens the door and she goes, slay mommy slay. And I'm like, oh. And I mean, even that hair fell out. So at its worst, I had lost half my eyebrows and a whole bunch of my eyelashes, like my [01:04:00] body hair left.

[01:04:01] And, um, now I have some weird patchy regrowth on my head, but I just shaved it this morning. Yes. So we were just talking about that. Yes. Before we started recording is our,

[01:04:10] Tyler: I know both of us are, uh, you know, um, follicly challenged. I was just gonna say that. Yeah. You know, we're, you know, but that's, There's a point of pride in it, you know?

[01:04:19] Yeah. And it, uh, makes you a better surfer, I think. I

[01:04:22] Susannah: think I'm faster now. Yeah. No, I'm actually not. I'm getting older and everything is like hurting.

[01:04:27] Tyler: If it works for Kelly Slater, it could work for us.

[01:04:30] Susannah: But you know, in truth, like for Kelly Slater, even you, I mean, it's

[01:04:35] Tyler: different. It's

[01:04:35] Susannah: totally different. It's, it's different.

[01:04:36] But you know what, there was actually, there was a session where I saw you on the beach and I said something about my head. Yeah. 'cause I was feeling self-conscious and embarrassed, and you said, oh, me too, blah, blah, blah. And at first I went home. And to be totally honest, I was mad at you. Yeah. I was like, he doesn't understand.

[01:04:54] It's different for women. And then I thought about it later and I'm like, you know what? For anybody. [01:05:00] When their body changes in a way that they don't want it to, there is all kinds of feeling of anger or shame or loss. And I was like, and Tyler has his own feelings around it and he was connecting with me in that way.

[01:05:13] And, you know, yes, it's different because it hasn't been normalized for women. Yeah. But you know, for men who grow up with hair and then they have male pattern baldness, like that's a loss. That's a loss that you went through. Yeah,

[01:05:26] Tyler: it it, you know, it's funny is like when it, it happened pretty young, you know, for me, like I could see, I tried to grow it and tried to, you know, but the spot, bald spot in the back and I was lucky in some ways.

[01:05:40] Like I was tall. People couldn't see the bald spot. But it, it definitely. It, it was something where I was like, I'm just going to start shaving it. 'cause I don't, I don't want to be reminded of, of it. I don't want to be that person who is trying to clinging to something else. You mean the Donald Trump's? I [01:06:00] don't want to be, I don't wanna be the ver comb over guy.

[01:06:02] You know? And, and it's, um, you know, I like it in the sense because it's easy. Yeah. You know, that has, you know, I, I'm lucky that I have a decent shaped head. Maybe it works for me. Yeah. Um, you know, but it's definitely was an insecurity of mine for a long time. And, uh, I've, you know, as I've gotten older, you get used to it.

[01:06:24] But I think for you it's, I can understand a little bit of that frustration that you might've felt because it. Because women are perceived a different way in society, in way that, you know, it's, it's been unfortunately, you know, oh, you don't have hair, you know, a woman, it, it hasn't been normalized like you said, you know?

[01:06:41] Right. And I think that it challenges certain femininity, uh, ideas, I guess.

[01:06:46] Susannah: Yes. And, and the other thing is that, I mean, a lot of female hair loss isn't normal. No. I mean, it's usually indicative that there's something wrong. Yeah. And, you know, I have my objections about our internet [01:07:00] era, but I will say that, you know, my ability to find the female hair loss community, um, you know, you like I, I'm on Facebook exclusively for the wigs.

[01:07:13] Yeah. And I, and the hair loss community there, and they're, it's sort of the equivalent of the surf forums. Yeah. But for hair loss, like, so I ended up in this like sort of, Group based around, it was a, a, a store that sold wigs. And this was like how I learned about what to do or learned what happens to your, you know, like, well, I knew what was happening to my sex life.

[01:07:41] I mean, sorry for my bluntness, but like these things impact your intimacy. And then to read other people's experiences with that and go, oh my God, okay, this is not just me. This is this, what I'm experiencing is the same thing that all these other people have experienced it, and some of them experience it because they have polycystic [01:08:00] ovary syndrome.

[01:08:00] Mm-hmm. Some people have what's called trick mania, where oftentimes from a very young age, they can't stop themselves from pulling out their own hair. Or there's androgenic alopecia, which is the female version of, of male pattern baldness. Yeah. So there's so many different reasons. There's people who've had cancer and their hair never came back, or it's temporary hair loss.

[01:08:20] Mm-hmm. Post covid hair loss, all of it. And, and, and, you know, I feel like just so lucky that I found places where I could get information. I've watched a million videos on YouTube, you know, and there are

[01:08:36] Tyler: some amazingly beautiful women without hair. You know, you look at Ayanna Presley, you know, oh my God.

[01:08:42] Like, she's stunning. Yeah. You know, and she embraced it. Yeah. And Jada Pinkett Smith and, and all sorts of, uh, women who. Who have embraced it and, and, uh, aren't, uh, ashamed of it. And I am, it's so wonderful to see

[01:08:56] Susannah: that. Yeah. Yeah. It helps to have the role models out [01:09:00] there, wherever you find them, whether it's someone famous or someone who is just, you know, like you brought up the, some of the Instagram posts that I've done and it's like my professional account, and I'm not supposed to be doing this according to like a consultant.

[01:09:15] This was pre alopecia. Yeah. But, you know, I just felt like, especially when the one year anniversary of my alopecia starting rolled around, I just wanted to say like, this is. Who I am. Yeah. And you know, I wear wigs. I'm so amazed at like how they look and I mean, they're not my hair though. Yeah. I keep wanting to buy new ones because I have, you know, nothing is gonna bring back that crazy curly hair that I had.

[01:09:42] Um, it's just, nothing's gonna be like my hair. Yeah. Um, but I just wanted to say like, this is real and, and what it's really taught me is that people have these struggles that we cannot see. And, you know, we always wanna give each other grace. And I mean, listen, I'm can be [01:10:00] very impatient and get easily frustrated.

[01:10:02] I've very high expectations of myself and thus other people. But I do think that alopecia has really helped me understand, like, you do not know what people are going through. You don't know, you know, and so if you can just. Find a little way to, you know, make more space for people. And that that's, you know, I think that to come back to my artwork, that's the spirit of my artwork, you know, and down for the day.

[01:10:28] Like, this is a public space that literally makes emotional space for people and they can have the most idyllic experience and forget their cares, forget their troubles, and, and those are the things that I wanna record, um, in photography. And I wanna find the joy where I can. I,

[01:10:48] Tyler: and I think you do. I think you are achieving that with your work.

[01:10:52] And it's beautiful. Like, and you can feel it, you can feel the emotion, you can feel the acceptance, [01:11:00] you can feel the, uh, you know, the inclusivity of it all. You know, it's, it's, uh, I think you've helped to, uh, change the, uh, meaning of down for the day mm-hmm. With this piece and. I really, uh, appreciate you coming on the show to discuss all of these things.

[01:11:21] I mean, honestly, Susanna, like, I could talk more. I mean, I think, I think we're gonna have to do a separate swim team, uh, you know, uh, episode with you and Lois and a few other of your members I think would be really

[01:11:34] Susannah: cool. Yeah. Maybe that'll actually formalize our organization. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:40] Tyler: Um, can you let our listeners know where they can find your work, uh, where the show is and uh, how long is it up

[01:11:46] Susannah: for?

[01:11:46] Yeah. Um, the show is called Down for the Day. It's at Baxter Street Camera called of New York. The address is 1 28 Baxter. If you look up the address, you're gonna see 1 26 Baxter, and that is the main [01:12:00] gallery space. I'm in what's called the project space, and the exhibition is part of their Mid-Career Artists initiative, which is sponsored by the New York State Council on the Arts.

[01:12:10] Um, and you can also find my work online. The website is www.susannaray.com, and then I'm up with an H Yes, with an h s u s a n n a h r a y.com. And then I am on Instagram Susanna Ray photography. Um, so yeah, it's been so great talking with you, Tyler. Oh my God,

[01:12:31] Tyler: it's such a pleasure. And like, I just, like, I have memories of like your right coast book sitting on the shelf at Mollusk Surf Shop back in the day.

[01:12:40] And I was like, who is this? This is awesome. You know, and I think one of the things I wanna say is like, you've really, um, created a genre of, of surf photography, particularly in some ways, like there have been other people who have been influenced, I think by your work. And you know, what you've done is just [01:13:00] beautiful.

[01:13:00] And I always inspired and also just always enjoy seeing you in the lineup. You and Rob, uh, like you guys are the best, like so much fun to, to surf with and I really, uh, appreciate you coming on. Um, and for our listeners, uh, don't forget to go follow, uh, at Swell season Surf radio on Instagram and you can go to swell season surf radio.com and gotta give it out to Joe here, our engineer who's awesome.

[01:13:25] And here at the Rockefeller Center Studio, uh, newsstand Studio and Rockefeller Center. Sorry. And, uh, yeah, we'll um, catch you all down the line soon. Thank you for listening.[01:14:00]