00:00:38] Tyler: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast.

[00:01:13] I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Surfing is a terrible thing. It destroys everything it touches. We traveling surfers have long considered ourselves goodwill ambassadors, citizens of the planet who bridge cultural divides, forge friendships, and inspire humanity with our carefree childlike sense of play as we boldly beat paths into the unknown.

[00:01:38] I'm leaving no marks but the magical transient lines we draw on waves. But our track record is rather less auspicious. From Malibu to Mundaka, The Gold Coast to Grodigin, Jefferies Bay to Cuda Beach, Neos to Noosa to the North Shore, surfers have been the forerunners of sudden [00:02:00] tourist chick and the unfettered development which follows.

[00:02:04] Quote from Tim Baker's The Sinking Islands article in Surfer Magazine, volume 39, number 11, in 1998. Our guest, Dr. Tara Ruttenberg, spends much of her days studying and thinking about surf tourism and how we can find other tourism models that help to improve and empower local communities to control how they would like to benefit from their local resources.

[00:02:31] Dr. Ruttenberg is a writer, free surfer, research consultant, and PhD in development studies. Her work has been featured in books like The Critical Surf Studies Reader. Lessons from the Ecolaboratory, Environmental Governance, and Economic Development in Costa Rica and the Rutledge Handbook of Latin American Development in peer reviewed academic journals including Tourism Planning and Development and Sport and [00:03:00] Tourism.

[00:03:01] She created Tarantula Surf as a platform for authentic sharing and engaging with alternative socio economic and socio ecological paradigms for a more beautiful world. And Dr. Tara Ruttenberg is our guest on this episode in Swell Season's Surf Podcast, and she's here with me in the studio, not in the jungles of Costa Rica, and I'm so stoked to have her here.

[00:03:25] I Tara, welcome to the show.

[00:03:28] Tara: Thanks so much, Tyler. Thanks for the intro.

[00:03:30] Tyler: No worries. I Love the work that you're doing. It's really incredible. And so when I was in university I was studying creative nonfiction writing and one of the papers I wrote was on surf tourism and it's horrible effects on travel and effects on local communities and so I've always been drawn to this topic and As someone who spent a lot of time traveling as, uh, you know, when I was younger, [00:04:00] uh, you know, it was something I was always conscious of and aware of and trying to travel consciously, but it's a, it's a, you know, as we've seen over history, it's hard to do.

[00:04:10] And I'm just, like, really curious, like, first, like, how you got into this, how you started thinking about this, and how it kinda came to that you wanted to study this and research it.

[00:04:21] Tara: Well, first of all, where can we read that piece you wrote? Oh,

[00:04:23] Tyler: gosh. It's, uh, printed somewhere, and it's in my files somewhere.

[00:04:29] Tara: I'm gonna dig that

[00:04:29] Tyler: up. I know, seriously. I mean, it's not as, um, well sourced as your stuff, but we didn't have much to go on. I had, like, Kevin Lovett's story, Peter Troy, and, like, this article from Surfer Magazine with Tim Baker, so not as well researched, maybe, but, but I used what I could at the time. Yeah.

[00:04:49] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:50] Tara: Well, that's interesting. I love that connection. Thanks for sharing that. I'd love to read it if you're able to dig it up someday. I

[00:04:54] Tyler: will take a look. Absolutely.

[00:04:56] Tara: Okay, so thanks for that question. A few things [00:05:00] kind of came together to really inspire me to get I'm interested in studying surf tourism.

[00:05:05] First of all, I started surfing when I moved to Costa Rica when I was 19, and that was a lot of the reason why I ended up staying.

[00:05:11] Tyler: Why did you move there, if you don't mind me asking?

[00:05:14] Tara: Yeah, so I did a study abroad year, and I was meant to only stay for a semester. And just completely fell in love with it.

[00:05:20] Halfway through the year, my parents actually moved down to Costa Rica also. So after I graduated college, I went to undergrad at Georgetown. So I did my junior year in Costa Rica. Went back. Was kind of depressed all year, wanting to get back to Costa Rica and to surfing. And so as soon as I finished college, I didn't really have the time.

[00:05:38] The great plan afterwards, a lot of my friends are moving to New York or elsewhere, finance jobs and everything. And I went back to the jungle and kind of carved a path and followed surfing really because at that point I was fully addicted. I'd been surfing for about six months to a year. And then kind of all of my passion started coming together.

[00:05:58] So I did the surf bum [00:06:00] thing in Hako Beach, Playa Hako.

[00:06:02] Tyler: As you do. As one does. Which

[00:06:04] Tara: is somewhere where I lived for seven years, kind of bouncing around between Hako and Playa Hermosa. And after about a year, Um, my kind of nerd self started speaking to me in the back of my mind that it was time to go back and do some more school.

[00:06:18] So I started a master's at the UN mandated University for Peace, which is kind of outside the city in San Jose, Santana. Um, so I was doing international peace studies there and kind of right at the end of that, I was, uh, you know, there was kind of a call for applicants for a teaching assistant position for Dr.

[00:06:37] Peter Brosius program he was running in Costa Rica at the time that had a surf focus. So he started the first surf related study abroad program. It's now called Surfing and Sustainability, Political Ecology in Costa Rica. So it has sort of an environmental anthropology and political ecology focus looking at The connections between surf tourism, conservation and development on the [00:07:00]Pacific coast of Costa Rica.

[00:07:00] So that was really where a lot of these concepts came from. It just came onto my radar working with him and then kind of understanding the similarities I was seeing in different places that I was starting to travel to surf at that time.

[00:07:12] Tyler: And then it's just a rabbit hole, you know, because then it's like you start, I feel like once you start looking at things that way, you start to see it everywhere too, you know, and it must be like, I imagine it's overwhelming at times when you just start to see how surfing has.

[00:07:30] It's kind of, you know, spread all over the world and some of it's very positive, but there's also a lot of those negative repercussions that have come with it. And also that colonial kind of aspect to it. I'm, I'm curious, like, so I want to bring up something I wonder, like, I'm curious your thoughts on. So on July 6, a collective of local groups campaigning for tourism degrowth protested over.

[00:07:56] Mounting concerns that mass tourism is responsible for, [00:08:00] among other things, driving up short term housing prices. This is all going on in Barcelona, and the Barcelona event, the latest in a slew of similar anti tourism protests held throughout Spain, including the Canary Islands, Málaga, uh, Girona, and other international areas, uh, you know, and it's not an isolated incident.

[00:08:18] You're starting to see this in a lot of places, and And especially post COVID, like, is the way we travel sustainable, globally, even? Like, you even have massive cities who are now kind of, you know, Pushing back against the tourism and do we need to rethink how we look at how we travel even?

[00:08:40] Tara: I think definitely and I think that's often the elephant in the room in the surf industry and in international surf culture, right?

[00:08:47] So I think a lot of surfers have sort of that endless summer idea in the back of their mind and that's something that's created Through the travel industry. That's really promoted through surf media through the international contest circuit, [00:09:00] et cetera. So surf travel is really endemic or, you know, constructed and has become now endemic to surf culture, right?

[00:09:07] So this idea that we as surfers need to travel to surf is something that if you ask a surfer, it's something they want to do. It's something they've done right. But looking at. The implications of that, it is fundamentally unsustainable, and of course it depends on how you're defining sustainability, but if we're looking at it through kind of, you know, carbon emissions related to international travel, whether we're looking at our impact in local communities, etc.,

[00:09:32] of course, as you mentioned, there are some positives in terms of job creation, relationships that are forged among traveling surfers, local surfers, etc. Um, but I think the negatives often outweigh the positives in a lot of places, particularly related to overdevelopment, and I think it's great that communities are starting to protest that.

[00:09:53] Tyler: I grew up kind of idolizing, like, you know, there was this almost, uh, romantic, uh, [00:10:00] aspect to surf travel. Like, if you read about, like, Peter Troy, or Kevin Naughton, Craig Peterson, or any of these surfers from, like, the 60s, 70s. Mike and Bill Boyum, you know, building G Land Surf Camp. Like, it's all Got this kind of swashbuckling kind of, uh, you know, aspect to it, and it's super alluring, you know, and, and it's, on one hand, like, it's really good because it gets people out of their comfort zone and gets them to, uh, learn other cultures and engage with them and get different perspectives, but at the same time, it feels like We've kind of lost almost that swashbuckling travel lightly aspect to it, and it's become so much more heavy handed over time.

[00:10:45] You know, it's, it's interesting, like, to have seen the surf travel industry really take, take hold and, and grow. What do you Like, what have you seen from the surf travel industry? Do you see them engaging and [00:11:00] trying to change, or are they, uh, opposed to it, uh, from your interactions with, with many of them, I imagine?

[00:11:08] Tara: I think it's, it's both. I think there are people in the industry who are really trying to promote more sustainable forms of surf travel. Um, and then I think there are people that are just catering to the surfer who maybe has a couple weeks a year who wants the luxury surf experience and isn't necessarily thinking about what their impact might be.

[00:11:25] And then you have within that spectrum travelers of different, you know, economic backgrounds, of different levels of privilege, what they can afford, et cetera. But I think that narrative of kind of the rogue backpacking surfer, that was kind of what we aspire to in some, in some ways. Kind of, you know, going feral in a, in a place that's super rugged.

[00:11:47] I think that, It's happening still, right? We still have some surf icons that we look up to who are doing that. But a lot of it that we're particularly seeing in places like Costa Rica, and I think Bali and [00:12:00] other places like that, um, that get high visitation of traveling surfers, that's not what we're seeing.

[00:12:05] We're not seeing people who are necessarily looking for that experience. People want to come plug in and start playing, whether they're on a boat, whether they're at a, you know, surf hostel or surf camp. And it's interesting because Surf travel now caters to so many different experience levels of surfer, right?

[00:12:23] So it's a market that's endlessly expanding and pushing new frontiers, right? Where experienced surfers might get annoyed at the fact that places are now crowded, so they could be traveling to different places or traveling less. We have new surfers, intermediate surfers who are wanting the surf camp experience, and they don't necessarily care how crowded it is, right?

[00:12:43] Because if they're working with instructors, getting pushed into waves, They can virtually surf anywhere.

[00:12:48] Tyler: Yeah, yeah. It's, I wonder, do you think that that type of mentality originally of the, the, the traveling backpacking surfer, do you think that was [00:13:00] healthy or problematic?

[00:13:03] Tara: Good question.

[00:13:05] Tyler: Sorry. Um,

[00:13:06] Tara: I think if we're looking at surf travel on the whole as something that is an unsustainable and practice, we might look at those early kind of exploratory, Trips or that type of rugged travel as feeding into the narrative that's perpetuating This desire for surfers to continue traveling and traveling to far off places the narratives of discovery Yeah, often reproduce tropes of colonization Etc and I'm sure we'll get a little more into that Um, but I'm glad you mentioned the story, or, you know, you mentioned Kevin Leavitt, and I know he has a beautiful new film out that I'm dying to see.

[00:13:40] I know, I can't wait for

[00:13:41] Tyler: this to come out. I'm really excited for this. Yeah,

[00:13:44] Tara: I know they're doing a screening in the UK, but, um, maybe they can do something here in New York, and I'm, I'm working maybe behind the scenes to bring something like that to Costa Rica, because that film, I think, will be incredible for us to see from that perspective, right?

[00:13:56] I'm

[00:13:56] Tyler: gonna pitch something right now. We should do a podcast with them. [00:14:00]

[00:14:01] Tara: Might be able to facilitate that. Yeah, now

[00:14:03] Tyler: we're talking. Cause that is quite, it's quite a story there too, which is interesting. But that is a perfect example of a place that was relatively, you know, you had local people who lived there, but it was undiscovered by Westerners or, you know, however you want to call them.

[00:14:23] Yeah. Surfers particularly, like these guys. They went, not just guys, like them and their girlfriends too, they went overland through Sumatra to get to Nias and, you know, had this crazy experience and then all of a sudden like this place that had never seen surfers before all of a sudden, you know, within a span of 10 years had totally fallen into this horrible patterns where locals started getting drugs for the surfers and Prostituting out women to them and all and sex trafficking started happening and all these Horrible things and it was [00:15:00] really bad for the economy there in the people and it seems like it has turned around though I'm not a, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but it seems like it's changed or maybe they've gotten a better handle on it.

[00:15:12] But from when I was researching and reading that article, it seemed pretty, pretty wild. I'm curious your, your thoughts on that, actually. Sorry.

[00:15:20] Tara: Yeah, so I haven't followed the case specifically of G Lan, so I think Definitely a conversation with Kevin might be in the future on a swell season. Yeah But I can speak to the experience that we're seeing in Costa Rica and other places that I've traveled I mean, we're seeing the construction of the the seawall and everything happening in Uluwatu, right?

[00:15:39] That's an incredible example

[00:15:41] Tyler: It's crazy. So listeners, if you're not familiar, they're, uh, they're building this crazy seawall, and they did it without consoling local people or anything, and the government just basically heavy, heavy handedly just, they're building this huge wall wrecking the cliffs and potentially ruining all the surf [00:16:00] spots that What drew people there, you know?

[00:16:03] What

[00:16:03] Tara: continues to draw a significant part of their tourism, right?

[00:16:06] Tyler: Exactly. And their

[00:16:06] Tara: income. So, sort of like, you know, throwing out the baby with the bathwater a little bit. But we'll see. We'll see what ends up happening there. Especially now because Bali is such a destination for mass tourism. Yeah. And I know that that's what the government is catering to.

[00:16:20] Kind of the more high volume approach to tourism, which we're seeing in a lot of places. And Costa Rica's no exception, right? And that's the, um, example that I have the most experience with. Of course, and we are seeing that too, right? So Costa Rica is considered in the top three destinations for surf travel.

[00:16:35] Mm hmm. A lot of the coastline has Become privatized the beaches cannot be privatized, which is an incredible legal framework within Costa Rican regulations but The land adjacent to the beaches can be so in Guanacaste, which is the northwest province of Costa Rica, which is considered the most developed on the coast, um, 80 percent [00:17:00] of coastal businesses and land is owned by foreigners.

[00:17:05] Tyler: That's crazy.

[00:17:06] Tara: And even in the south where I live, the majority of people who own land around there. are also foreigners, right? So just thinking about the relationships, how they change, how power dynamics change, how that affects local people's access to living near the coast, what that means for inflation, price of living, etc.

[00:17:25] So, thank you. Even looking at it beyond just what it means to have a place become overdeveloped in terms of river sanitation, water quality, waste management, et cetera, the impact on local people is significant.

[00:17:37] Tyler: I wanted to see if you can give our listeners a description of what Post development perspective, uh, uh, description of post development perspective in relation to surf tourism and more specifically surf, sustainable surf tourism, uh, or in another way you put it in your work, uh, is decolonizing sustainable surf tourism.

[00:17:57] And I was hoping you can kind of speak to those [00:18:00] two things because I think many of us think sustainable surf tourism, Oh, great. It's great for the locals. It's great for this. But in reality, it's actually just. Reinforcing this colonial kind of structure on

[00:18:12] Tara: them. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's a really important question.

[00:18:15] And that really touches at the essence of the work that I do, particularly the research that I did for my PhD. I was working with a local community outside of Santa Teresa on the kind of tip of the Nicoya Peninsula in the northwest of Costa Rica. And the idea was to look at alternatives to development instead of kind of pushing the narrative of sustainable development.

[00:18:38] Right, and so that critique is built on this idea that we don't want more sustainable forms of something that's fundamentally unsustainable, development. We want alternatives to that development. So that's really the post development critique that in my work I applied to the field of surf tourism. So thinking about non growth oriented strategies that [00:19:00] leverage existing community assets to support local well being, ideally in harmony with nature.

[00:19:06] So. Tourism might have a role to play, and it probably does, because a lot of these places where, you know, I'm interested in researching these alternatives and where people are already working towards alternatives that might, may or may not be that visibilized, um, it, it presents a place where these sorts of conversations can arise and ideally affect some sort of change.

[00:19:31] Tyler: Can you give me like an example of what? sustainable surf tourism looks like as opposed to some of the work that you've done. Like, I thought it was really, I really wanted to actually kind of dive into like your work with Playa Hermosa and, and, uh, the PAR methodology that you were doing there. Um, but I, I was hoping you can break it down for our listeners in layman's terms, like, What sustainable surf tourism is now, and then [00:20:00] what you've been working on in Playa Hermosa and kind of describe that a little bit.

[00:20:04] Tara: Yeah. So the field of sustainable surf tourism is something that we can discuss as being sort of an umbrella framework or an umbrella term really for different projects that are both academic oriented and more kind of practitioner or activist oriented.

[00:20:21] Tyler: Yes, she's pulling it up. She's got her notes. I love this.

[00:20:25] I

[00:20:25] Tara: don't want to forget anything. No,

[00:20:26] Tyler: this is so great

[00:20:27] Tara: Let's make sure I have this right Okay, so we can think about sustainable surf tourism first as including things like sustainability standards and best practices for resorts for surf tourism providers surf volunteerism for development so there are a few different organizations around the world that Attract surf tourists who want to give back, right?

[00:20:49] So that's the volun tourist part. Um, usually oriented towards some type of socioeconomic development projects in those communities. Surf philanthropy, so through [00:21:00] organizations like Save the Waves, for example, receiving funding to support the protection of surf breaks or to support different communities in different places.

[00:21:08] Um, Surfenomics policy mechanism. So this one's really interesting. There's a lot of work being done to try to understand the economic value of different surfing waves. So there was actually a study done in Uluwatu, and there have been many studies done around the world. It's sort of a precursor for the World Surfing Reserves program of, uh, Save the Waves.

[00:21:29] So it's something that they do when they're trying to consider whether or not a place would be recommended to become a world surfing reserve, is they do a whole surfenomics study where they try to value. You know, how much income a certain wave is bringing into a community to then leverage that toward conservation, right?

[00:21:46] Wow. So that's an interesting, um, avenue that people are working towards, right? Try to convince, um, local governments in particular to choose conservation and preservation of a wave resource. Instead of [00:22:00] overdeveloping or creating some sort of industrial project that would, uh, threaten those waves.

[00:22:04] Tyler: Like a marina or something along those lines, which, you know, we've, we've seen so many good surfing spots destroyed because of it.

[00:22:12] And, and, you know, it ends up not being good for the community in the long run a lot of the time.

[00:22:17] Tara: Exactly, exactly. Um, educational surf travel, which is something that I participate in. Surf tourism management plans, so the two that come to mind and that are kind of most famous in this work are, uh, Papua New Guinea has a surf tourism management plan and Barra de la Cruz in Oaxaca, Mexico.

[00:22:36] And those are kind of two different model, models. But Both would fit under this category of tourism management.

[00:22:41] Tyler: Can you break down what those look like? Actually, because I'm, I'm curious. Like I've, I know you talked about with Karen on a past episode, by the way, listeners go listen to that as well. Um, you know, but it, it's that I'm curious, like how that has developed because I imagine post COVID, Must have [00:23:00] thrown so much out of whack, you know, and trying to control those places must been really difficult during this time.

[00:23:07] Tara: Yeah, so I can speak to the example of Barra because that's somewhere that I've visited multiple times and I've done a bit of academic research related to their particular experience with surf tourism management. So what I know there is that They charge kind of an access fee the last time I visited which was before COVID, I haven't been back since then.

[00:23:27] It was I think 1. every time you go down to the beach to surf you pay an entrance fee. Yeah, and then they don't allow any building On the beach except for the community run cooperative cooperative restaurant. Yeah, and that's actually linked to a Local governance framework, so they have kind of an autonomous status from the federal Mexican government because they're an indigenous community Which is, which is interesting and very kind of unique in the [00:24:00] surfing world, right?

[00:24:00] That a local indigenous community has decided how they're going to run surf tourism in their community. So they don't allow foreigners to own land. Um, They don't even allow non local indigenous Mexicans to own land. So you would have had to be born into the community to be able to own a business, to own land, etc.

[00:24:21] And a lot of, um, the local businesses there are part of this, uh, community cooperative framework. So then they're receiving income. And then distributing it among the community in different ways. So for the clinic, for the schools, for, you know, pensions, for scholarships, et cetera. And then they do require people who are part of that assembly to do some public work projects throughout the year to maintain infrastructure and things within the community.

[00:24:48] So it's a really interesting way that they are. Leveraging some income from tourism, but also resisting the types of kind of private investment encroachment that we see in so many other surf destinations [00:25:00] around the world as the norm.

[00:25:01] Tyler: Well, it's so crazy like how The surfers from, you know, from a lot of Western nations have gone on taking advantage almost of a lot of these places by buying up huge swaths of land, uh, and creating these surf camps and whatnot and, and other experiences.

[00:25:21] And it's, it's weird. Like, Yeah. I don't know, like, uh, because it kinda is almost goes against a lot of the localism kind of aspects of surfing that we've all, you know, many of us grew up with, you know, and you learn, like, you don't go into another place and then try to act like a local, you know, and it seems like we kind of throw that out the window, though, when it's our own kind of our own situations and own pleasure.

[00:25:48] I had this idea while you were talking, by the way, about the charging. Here's an idea, by the way. They should charge, because we have AI technology with videos, we should now charge per [00:26:00] wave as opposed to access. So that way you don't take too many waves and you learn to share and you make the most out of your wave.

[00:26:08] Tara: Interesting. Right? You heard it here first.

[00:26:10] Tyler: Right? Serious? Cause I'm like, I was thinking about like, cause still, they're gonna be there. They're still gonna be jockeying in the lineup. There's still gonna be people trying to take more than they probably should. Especially a more advanced surfer will probably, you know, You know, paddle around you and try to take more waves.

[00:26:27] So maybe if they have to pay for more, then they'll be more choosy and more selective. I mean,

[00:26:34] Tara: it's an interesting idea, and I think it's being done in interesting ways in different places, right? And that's where the localism piece comes in. Yeah. People pay local surfers to block for them. Yeah. For example.

[00:26:45] Right? So that's an interesting thing that's happening in surf tourism, but it's not usually the pros who are doing that, right? It's usually people who wouldn't necessarily be able to get a wave on their own, but do have the financial ability to be able to pay locals to just sit out there with them.

[00:26:59] They're probably [00:27:00] surfing, too. It happens where I live.

[00:27:01] Tyler: Really? And

[00:27:02] Tara: they'll pay something like, you know, 100 a wave, I've heard.

[00:27:05] Tyler: That's crazy.

[00:27:07] Tara: It's happening.

[00:27:08] Tyler: How does that, that? That seems so weird to me. I don't know, like, it feels like you're selling out as a local too, and you're also, and the person coming in is just buying the privilege, you know, and kind of, kind of ruining the whole aspect of surfing in that sense.

[00:27:26] Tara: It's an interesting dynamic, I will say. I'm not sure it equates to local selling out, though. I think it's the, Leveraging their power in the water. True. And making some sort of financial benefit for themselves Whereas these visitors might come anyway, they might not get as many waves Yeah, and locals would still have to deal with them in the water in other ways But again, giving up your wave priority as a local, I see what you mean is that possibly representing some form of selling out?

[00:27:55] Tyler: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, it's, I get it. Like, and in one way, maybe it's a [00:28:00] great way to enforce kind of better behavior in the lineup. You know, it gives you a certain status or an effect. I've always imagined like it would, and we actually, this happened in New York back in the early 60s when surfing first started, when my father's friends was paid by the town of Long Beach to police the lineup.

[00:28:20] And he would regulate and he would, not in a mean way, it wasn't like he would fight anyone, but if he saw someone who was creating problems or was getting in the way, he would Either tell them to go in or to go to another spot and it was like a way to mitigate issues in the lineup.

[00:28:36] Tara: That's really interesting.

[00:28:37] Tyler: I know, right? Like, I think, I think we need, no, I, I'm not going to say police cops because that means where it escalates things, but. Maybe like surf Jedis in the lineup who resolve issues, you know?

[00:28:51] Tara: Yeah, who bring, who bring the knife out to cut leashes, right? No, no, I was thinking

[00:28:56] Tyler: more to de escalate situations and to kind of, [00:29:00] you know, more so like help people keep the lineup flowing.

[00:29:04] Keep people from paddling, back paddling and other sorts of issues. Almost like, So in who can be there to kind of moderate the issues. Yeah, and that's

[00:29:13] Tara: often a function of localism At least how I've experienced it in different places that I've visited and in particular where I live where it's you know Locals take it upon themselves as their responsibility to first of all make sure people aren't just doing egregious things that would put other Surfers at risk including themselves For example, if a boat comes over drops off a bunch of surfers and then the boat just takes off Those surfers are often trying to surf at a spot that's above their skill level.

[00:29:39] There's rocks on the inside You know the conditions aren't appropriate for how they're surfing etc And then it becomes kind of a locals responsibility if something happens to them. Yeah, so I think there should be no qualms that those surfers have the right and the ability to say, Hey, you would have more fun at another break or you need to sit here, you know?

[00:29:59] And [00:30:00] so it's both an assertion of belonging to the place where they're from and kind of the hierarchies that are, have been a part of surf culture for time immemorial, immemorial. Um, But also a way of kind of maintaining that sort of order and Supporting kind of a better sense of flow in the water because you know when you have people from everywhere with different surf etiquette different surf Cultures coming together it gets crazy.

[00:30:25] Tyler: Have you ever read? There was an article by Lewis Samuels. I think in surfer magazine Or surface journaling. It was basically this concept where everyone was out in this lineup and they were kind of locals, but they all had a number and basically they all kind of took turns and if anyone, you know, and someone out there would call up their number and then you just kind of do this nice rotation and everyone played and if someone tried to, you know, try to sneak a wave or drop in, you know, everyone would then box that person out basically together as a collective.

[00:30:59] Tara: Okay.

[00:30:59] Tyler: And that's [00:31:00] like a really good, I feel like. It's never been done in practice, I think, but it was written as a fictionalized story of how lineups could potentially work.

[00:31:09] Tara: And I think it's done in practice in many places and in many ways, just not necessarily with the actual card. But when you're sitting in a lineup, you're aware when it's your turn, you're aware when it's not.

[00:31:17] You're aware of the people who are taking waves out of turn, if they have the right to, if they're locals or not, etc. Right? So often in the localism that I've experienced, it's locals kind of take turns among themselves and then visitors. Kind of wait for the leftovers, right? And they're going to get more waves if they're a little bit nicer in the water, if they have a higher skill of surfing, etc.

[00:31:38] But I think, you know, recognizing that as a visitor, it's our responsibility as well.

[00:31:43] Tyler: It's crazy how so many surfers don't seem to understand that, though. I don't know what it is, um, why that, that has broken down over time. So I feel like there was a better sense of that before. In the past and over the years, it's just kind of [00:32:00] degraded and people just think, I bought my ticket here and I, I deserve this way and I don't care who I burn or whatever.

[00:32:08] Um, yeah, it's, um, it's interesting, like listening to watching surfers behave and I'm curious, like actually for you in Costa Rica, have, do you feel that the etiquette and the attitudes have gotten better or worse over your time in Costa Rica?

[00:32:25] Tara: I would argue that they've gotten worse, I think, particularly in terms of just sheer numbers, right?

[00:32:30] So it's a lot more people coming to visit. I'm not sure if in the surf camps where people are learning these days, if they're learning that, that type of etiquette, right? What it means. I think it's often that surf instructors are pushing people into waves, wanting to kind of generate that stoke experience, but not necessarily explaining, you know, this is the person who has the right of way on the wave.

[00:32:51] If you're a visitor. You know, adhere to the idea that locals have priority, et cetera. Um, and I also think it's a function of entitlement, right? So if people, like [00:33:00] you said, are coming to a place, they've paid whatever they've paid for a spot on the boat, or at a resort adjacent to a wave, it's a sense of ownership.

[00:33:08] Right? I paid for this, therefore I'm going to take the waves that are owed to me, based on what I paid. Um, and I find that really problematic, of course, because it's not respecting the place where they are, it's not respecting the local community, the surfer community, it's all about I paid to play, and so I'm entitled to play.

[00:33:27] To that. And I experienced that a lot in Costa Rica. I've lived in Costa Rica and surfed there now for half of my life. Um, so I've seen these dynamics and obviously the fact that I'm studying them and researching them, I'm very aware of what's going on and the politics of that in the water. And I think it does come down to that sense of entitlement.

[00:33:44] Tyler: I want to discuss like your, um, you know, your paper and the PAR methodology and how it was implemented in Playa Hermosa. Like how, what did you, can you explain, because you do a great job in your paper, but I was hoping you can explain it for our listeners, like [00:34:00] what this program was and what you guys did and how it was implemented and all the different ways you kind of explored a more sustainable model.

[00:34:08] Tara: Mm hmm. Yeah, so I worked with the community that is in Playa Hermosa, which is, uh, near Santa Teresa. Mm hmm. And I chose that area, first of all, because I was living there, and in this type of research, it's important to kind of be a part of the community that you're researching with. Mm hmm. Um, and so it shifts the idea that a researcher is meant to just kind of, you know, Do extractive research where you learn from, observe, take away, write about.

[00:34:33] Um, the idea is that this research is meant to be participatory and useful and do something in support of the community. So the project itself was designed around a methodology called the Diverse Economies Framework, or the Community Economies Framework, and that was developed by the Community Economies, now the Community Economies Research Network, but initially by J.

[00:34:54] K. Gibson Graham, who are feminist economic geographers from Australia. Um, and it's a methodology [00:35:00] that can be broadly applied because what it does is it takes an inventory of existing assets and existing skills among the community towards thinking about alternatives to development. So that's what I was talking about previously.

[00:35:13] But the research process itself ended up being sort of a community based project, and that's what it looks like when you're doing it in the field. And the idea is to kind of support communities organizing in a way that they can, can and want to start thinking about what would it look like if we did something different to this more privatized, neoliberal model of surf tourism that we were seeing happening in Santa Teresa and continue to see happening there, right?

[00:35:40] So it's not that the research we did in Playa Hermosa has meant that there aren't these kind of overarching favorites happening, but it started conversations around, um, what local people wanted to see and starting from what already existed in the community. So it's this assets based approach.

[00:35:57] Tyler: It's interesting.

[00:35:57] Like, um, You [00:36:00] know, I guess, like, the difference is, like, the sustain a lot of the sustainable surf tourism, like, it's based on this colonial kind of model of growth, you know, or capitalistic model, where it's constant growth almost, it feels like, and I'm curious, like, what the, What are the alternatives and what does that look like?

[00:36:20] What are, what are the more, you know, because you kind of discuss it in your paper, like how everyone took stock of their skill sets and using it based off of their skills as opposed to what they own or the, the, the land that they have or whatever it is or monetary contributions. And I was, you know, Curious, like, what are, what are other models that we could utilize or in surf tourism that would be beneficial to the people and also still be able to go surf these waves in relative peace?

[00:36:49] Tara: Mm hmm. So this approach, why I find it useful in many different situations is because it starts to de center those types of capitalist logics and also [00:37:00] capitalist practices. So looking at an economy, we're not just starting to think about, think of it, think of it as We're starting to think of it in different terms other than wage labor is producing for an enterprise in a capitalist economy.

[00:37:12] We're looking at all of the ways that people are supporting each other, getting needs met, whether or not that is commonly seen as economic. So expanding the definition of the economy beyond those types of capitalist frames. And that's, It's kind of a revolutionary approach, right? Because it doesn't just say that local people in surf tourism communities will be happy if they have access to a job that pays well, which is what it's, how it's often done.

[00:37:38] And that's the difference of this approach compared to, for example, the kind of more mainstream sustainable surf tourism approach, which tries to leverage still a growth oriented model to support locals. So the question changes. It's less about how can locals make money and it's more about how can.

[00:37:56] These types of approaches support community well being and [00:38:00] this, you know, brought more, you know, broader understanding of what the economy looks like. So it takes a starting point with a different question.

[00:38:08] Tyler: I got to ask then, like, um, you know, when we do these studies and investigate and recommend solutions, do we run the risk of falling back into the same kind of colonial trap, like of, You know, coming in and saying, well, this you should try or this we should try.

[00:38:24] I mean, we see this with lots of NGOs that come into places and try to tell people how to work within the capitalist framework, basically.

[00:38:33] Tara: Yeah, I think that even the research I do, there's a risk of that as well. Right. And the idea is that this approach is meant to kind of circumvent that or provide an alternative to that.

[00:38:42] But even as. As a foreign researcher, even if I've lived in a community for a number of years, I still carry with me those types of logics and ideas. Right? But that's sort of the critical approach that is looking at the power dynamics of the cultural power [00:39:00] of colonial mindset or a Western modern framework of even understanding what sustainability looks like or what community well being should look like.

[00:39:08] So recognizing that as researchers or as community members in different places, we kind of carry with us. Those narratives those ideologies we can't necessarily get outside of those but we can support Conversations and support what people are already doing and I think that's the most important part It's not trying to implement sort of a prefabricated list of what it means to be a sustainable surf community It's really starting from where people are looking at skills assets the things that Make people happy, et cetera.

[00:39:40] So kind of deconstructing the idea that, you know, Western style development is what communities need to live a quality life and thinking about how local culture factors into those types of conversations as well. And starting there.

[00:39:55] Tyler: I mean, honestly, like, I wish we could expand that beyond even like, you know, I think [00:40:00] we, I wish we could expand it to our, our everyday lives, that type of mentality, you know, cause it, cause in, in theory you have like, Surfing is a resource.

[00:40:11] It is a, it's no different actually than oil or gold in some ways, I think, because it's, you know, something that people can make money off of or sustain off of in some ways, and I imagine, like, there are wave rich places that could host tourism, uh, in such a way that it supports the community where they don't have to chase or get on this, you know, hamster wheel of capitalism, where they could live a good quality life, where they work.

[00:40:41] Certain amount of the day, but not work themselves silly, like kind of like the Hawaiians used to do, which is interesting. Um, I wonder, like, is that possible? I mean, do you think, do you think surfers would, would be okay with this? Uh, that type of model or [00:41:00] changing the access to everything?

[00:41:03] Tara: I mean, I think it's possible and I've also seen it happening.

[00:41:06] So it's, it's possible and it's happening. Um, but I think ownership is important. Yeah, right. So in a lot of places foreign owned surf camps are hiring local surf instructors But the distance between what the local surf instructors are earning and what the foreign owners are earning that's you know Traditional form of capitalist exploitation, right?

[00:41:27] The owner earning beyond what they should based on the labor of other people So I think as a traveler trying to find the surf camps in the surf schools and surf businesses that are owned by locals Not just the ones that are hiring locals That's fundamental to kind of really shifting those dynamics from a structural standpoint rather than you know Feeling good about yourself because you're working with, um, a surf camp that's hiring local people and that's fundamental.

[00:41:57] Tyler: Are we seeing, are you seeing, [00:42:00] um, Locals from these surf spots get involved in almost your field of study and and starting to research this as well like as opposed to us westerners coming down and then trying to Spark these things. Is it coming from the ground up as well in other places? Do you know?

[00:42:18] Tara: Well, definitely and I think costa rica is a really interesting example There's kind of a nationwide local surfer association. It's kind of informal, but they they communicate they have and it's really interesting Um whatsapp group where they're kind of sharing resources and sharing information and kind of calling out surf camps that aren't doing things Right and are trying to hire non local surf instructors, etc So it's a Kind of informal mode of regulation and that is really inspiring to me the ways that local surfers are Organizing they're fully recognizing what's going on and not really willing to stand for it, right?

[00:42:54] So there are certain beaches that don't even allow foreign owned surf camps to come in They don't [00:43:00] allow non local surf instructors to come in, etc Or and it's even happening where they're more and more trying to push You Surfers to be hiring local surf guides to even be able to visit the different surf breaks, which I think would be a really supportive model for the types of things we're talking about.

[00:43:17] Tyler: Well, I think that I like that model, too, of hiring a local guide, because not only you're you're getting access to waves, but you're you're forced to interact with someone who's from there and who lives there, and maybe you might learn something. I mean. Kevin Naughton once said the difference between a, uh, a tourist and a traveler is the tourist remains unchanged from their travels and a traveler is changed by the experience of traveling and I think if you can get more tourists To become travelers in that sense by it, you know, having a guide or having someone show them and talk to them, you know, instead of talking down even, you know, [00:44:00] like, because a lot of times you can have that weird dynamic where they're the customer and they're the, you know, and they're, you know, and you kind of talk down to them.

[00:44:07] No, they're my guide. But instead, if it's more, On an equal playing field, I feel like people might get changed or might have a different viewpoint.

[00:44:17] Tara: Yeah, and even the humility to say, I'm traveling to a new place, I should hire a surf guide, because that's one way I can directly support local surfers and the local economy.

[00:44:26] And also, you're probably going to get way more waves, right? So I've been in the water many times with friends of mine who are surf instructors and surf guides, and they obviously are supporting their clients in catching waves. For more information, visit www. FEMA. gov And then everybody else who hasn't hired a surf guide is just kind of trying to vie for position and getting in there.

[00:44:45] They're getting yelled at by the locals, right? It's, it's a whole thing. Yeah. And you're going to have a better time. You're going to be supportive of the community. So it's, I think it's something that as travelers, we should start really implementing.

[00:44:58] Tyler: Yeah. And they, [00:45:00] and those people will also get you to spend locally too.

[00:45:03] Because they'll be like, we're going to go to this restaurant. That's my friend. And we're going to go here. You know that that was that was the thing that I always loved about traveling was I always felt and Times have changed and I haven't been traveling much in a long time. So But when I used to travel a lot like and and just do the full you know kind of I wanted to be like Kevin Norton Craig Peterson full rugged backpacking and Surfing, I found, was a way for me to get to know the locals and to get into and learn the culture and learn the local people and get involved even in the community, you know, I wouldn't, a lot of times I wouldn't travel to a place for like a week, I would spend like months at a time to try to um, Really get a better feeling and understanding of the place and I felt like travel surf travel was a gateway drug to Understanding the world much better and I feel like over the last 20 years It's become more [00:46:00] isolated where these camps and everyone is you know?

[00:46:03] Just protected around this bubble and they're not engaging with people and so I like that idea, though. I think that's the, that to me is probably one of the better ways that we can kind of implement surf travel.

[00:46:17] Tara: Yeah, agreed.

[00:46:18] Tyler: Um, how about expats, or as you've called them, settlers, uh, which is a very charged term right now, by the way.

[00:46:28] Um, you know, how, like, how should expats go about, you know, moving if they want to live in one of these places, should they do that? Um, you know, it's, you know, my wife and I, we talk about wanting to retire. We can't retire in the U. S. Really? It's too expensive these days. But if we could, if we went to somewhere more affordable and preferably with waves, um, so I'm curious, like how do, how should someone go about that without ruining the [00:47:00] dynamic that is there.

[00:47:01] Tara: I think that's a really charged question and a really important one, especially in this line of work. Right. And I think the first, my first gut reaction is just like, don't, but I think we can unpack that a little bit further. Um, So I'm, I'm happy that you kind of brought up the, the term settler, right? And so that is in reference to the idea that expats or foreign migrants, um, mostly from northern countries are moving into the global South in surf destinations, buying up land, building a house, living their dream and the implications of what that entails.

[00:47:37] And so that's the settler part of settler culture. Colonialism. Yeah. Um, and I think that we could talk about, you know, right ways of doing that or good ways of doing that, but recognizing that in the process of doing that you are contributing to the further colonization and ongoing, you know, um, Investment in places and the impacts of that so [00:48:00] you can't just wipe yourself clean of that no matter how you want to you know Put on your rose colored glasses for it That said I think you know, I know a lot of people who are expats who own land.

[00:48:13] I don't own land But I think that There are people who do it in a way that feels better for a community and ways that doesn't feel good for a community. So, believing that you're a local just because you show up and you buy a piece of property and so you have access and entitlement to the surf, you know, No.

[00:48:33] No. No. That's not really how it works. Um, and that's really kind of, you know, Uh, frowned upon and seen poorly among the community and just kind of the mindset I think when people come in and you know, you see someone who comes to a place and they're immediately asking you, do you know any land for sale?

[00:48:50] Do you know any land for sale? And my response is, is this your first time here? Why don't you try to get to know the community, see if they would actually want you to live here. For example, are you just, you [00:49:00] know, here to serve your own interests and do it in an extractive way, or are you here to give something and support the well being of this community in a way?

[00:49:08] Are you conservation minded, et cetera? But like I said, um, You know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so even the most well intentioned uh, settler coming into a community still has that behind them, right?

[00:49:23] Tyler: Do you think then, like, renting is a better option than, than buying up? Uh, you know, and renting obviously from a local and not from an expat, you know?

[00:49:34] Do you think that, uh, I mean, asking for a friend, asking for a friend, how

[00:49:41] Tara: do I

[00:49:41] Tyler: do this? Because

[00:49:44] Tara: maybe, maybe renting is better if you're renting from a local, but you know, at the same time, a lot of the rentals that we're seeing now are going up, the prices are going up exorbitantly. And that was a function of during COVID times.

[00:49:57] But the idea is that [00:50:00] you can live there, and people were posting on the local community groups, like, Hey, I can pay, you know, three grand a month for an apartment.

[00:50:07] And so something that might have been a thousand dollars, overnight became three thousand, because the market could burn. You know absorb that so I don't know I don't know if renting is the answer either because what it does Eventually is it pushes local people out of the possibility of paying that type of rent, right?

[00:50:24] So it's just upward pressure on the prices cost of living, etc. So I'm not sure if that's the solution either.

[00:50:30] Tyler: It's Yeah, it's a it's a sticky it's a complicated thing because you know, because we all have our wants and desires and You Wanting to do what's right and also we're all a lot of us are stuck in places that we live at You know, whether it's our work our jobs and then it's like well we don't necessarily want to stay in this hamster wheel either and it's It's a hard one to kind of square and, and also it's morally fraught going [00:51:00] in line and like, I mean, and it's, and look, you see this happening in other parts of the world, non surf related too, that we, we can avoid that conversation right now if you want, but, but I mean, it's, it's really.

[00:51:14] Yeah, it's really problematic and and and I imagine it causes so much resent resentment in the communities How have you seen like local community resentment? What does that look like? And what sort of forms does that take?

[00:51:30] Tara: Yeah in Costa Rica, it's Recently taking on a new form I would say and I think in the past Costa Rica, especially in tourist locations, was very much about pleasing the tourists, catering to tourists, recognizing that tourism is a very important part of national income, um, and kind of accepting that mantra, that narrative, that, you know, the tourists can do no harm because they're supporting our economy.

[00:51:56] Tyler: The customer's always right.

[00:51:57] Tara: Exactly. That idea. And I definitely [00:52:00] felt that in the, you know, the You know, first 10 years probably that I lived in the country, but I think that that's actually dramatically shifting, particularly in surf communities that are just seeing, you know, in the past 2 to 5 years, expansive growth, right?

[00:52:15] Yeah. And a lot of overdevelopment and it kind of happened seemingly overnight. Right? And kind of very pro investment, governmental policies that allow for foreigners to invest and buy land, um, and what that has meant for people and what that continues to mean in terms of, sure, access to quality paid work, especially as a surf instructor is a sought after job.

[00:52:36] Yeah. Um, But recognizing that you could work and work and work, but you're still not going to be able to afford the multi million dollar property on the beach. Yeah. Whereas years ago, and maybe when I first came to Costa Rica, that would have been more accessible to locals. And even local families who have or did have coastal land holdings, the government began taxing those exorbitantly to the point [00:53:00] that to be able to pay your tax, you had to sell a piece of your land.

[00:53:03] Right? That's

[00:53:04] Tyler: crazy. There

[00:53:05] Tara: are these You know, behind the scenes incentives that are really pushing coastal land sales. Um, and I feel like I'm digressing from the question. No, no, no, no,

[00:53:15] Tyler: we're flowing here. This is good. No, it's like that's, it's, it's leading me to another topic of like access to, to the ocean and what that, that buying up of that land, that privatization of the land and being able to access the beaches.

[00:53:30] We've seen that issue. You know, here in the U. S. that's a major issue. I mean, gosh, like, we just saw a surfer get, you know, racked by police officers in New Jersey for not having a badge to access the beach. You know, and, uh, you go out east on Long Island, you can't park on the, near the beach at all because it's all private property.

[00:53:50] You know, private land, private community, and you have to have a badge to park, and all these things. And so, that privatization of the beaches is really something [00:54:00] that I, I am very concerned about in terms of, for surf culture and surfing as a whole.

[00:54:05] Tara: Yeah.

[00:54:05] Tyler: Um, and is that, has that been an issue in, in Costa Rica where you, where you live?

[00:54:11] Like, are you seeing that sort of, Like you said at the beginning, like, luckily the beaches are not, you can't own it, but they can own that property adjacent, which can prevent you from accessing

[00:54:22] Tara: it. That's a good question. And I remembered what I was trying to say in the last question, so let me just go back to that really quickly.

[00:54:28] So just to kind of conclude, I do see that mentality shifting, especially among local surf communities, where it's not so much, you The tourist is God, or, you know, the tourist can do no wrong. It's like, okay, the tourists can maybe come if they're supporting our economy, but we still want to live here. We still want to have access to surf, you know, live in the place where we surf, etc.

[00:54:50] So there is some resistance, and I'm Very glad to see that happening. Um, and in other places around the world, right? This is kind of coming to a head, and I think, you know, more [00:55:00] and more people are talking and there could be some sort of cross border movements forming related to tourism, right? Tourism is one of the world's top industries.

[00:55:09] Right? Multi, multi, multi billion dollar industry, um, and the ways that people are starting to resist that locally I think could be, you know, very empowering for local communities, so. Let me end that response. And then the idea about access. So in the Costa Rican case, if you are someone who buys coastal land, you, and you provide an access to a beach that didn't necessarily have an access road to it, you have to also provide a public access road.

[00:55:36] But there are many resorts and small hotels and things like that that aren't doing that, and they're facing legal repercussions, which is good. But it would take, You know, a community hiring some type of lawyer to then require that hotel to create a public access if they're not doing it in their own regard, um, and they're often fighting it because they want to say that they have this [00:56:00]private beach for their guests.

[00:56:01] Or if someone was walking along the beach trying to sell something, they'll try to put up a barrier or something like that. Um, but even just this idea that someone can come by land close to the coast, put up a big wall or kind of block off some sort of, you know, informal pathway that someone might have had, a community might have had to the beach, that's happening all the time.

[00:56:22] Right, and even just the, the feeling of belonging beyond privatization or how you can physically walk to a place. If your whole coastline is now owned by foreigners and it's resort after Airbnb after vacation rental or mansion on the beach. Local surfers might not even feel that comfortable visiting and surfing at their places if they're looking around them and it's all tourists or expats in their place and they have to travel now, you know, a half hour just to get to the surf that they've been growing up surfing their whole lives.

[00:56:53] Right? So that that type of reality is happening.

[00:56:56] Tyler: That's crazy. It's, it's [00:57:00] It's so frustrating, like I imagine, like I would imagine it's so frustrating for so many locals to have to deal with this now, you know, and I remember you said in your podcast with Karen a few years ago, just how a lot of these people who buy that property and they have that sense of entitlement and then they keep moving the goalposts, right?

[00:57:21] Like, you know, You said like, Oh, well, one of the local, one of the local guys said to expats. Well, I'm from this country. You're not. And the guy's like, well, you wouldn't have surfing without, without me, which is like the most crazy thing to say. It's just so wow. Like tone deaf. And it's, it's. I think a lot of surfers think that.

[00:57:41] Tara: Yeah. Well, that's a really interesting dynamic, right? And most Costa Rican surfers recognize that they started surfing because foreigners visited, left surfboards, they started messing around on the boards, or someone taught them who was visiting. So that's really interesting when you think about kind of the cross cultural dynamics of how people [00:58:00] started surfing and appropriated, culture from, you know, Hawaii or Polynesian pre colonial surfing cultures in the Western world, particularly California, and then how that has then been more dispersed into other places and in Central America, of course, Mexico, Central America, South America.

[00:58:18] The majority of local surfers did, uh, Somehow learn from North American surfers. Yeah, and then thinking about localism in that context is really interesting And so those types of dynamics come up a lot Yeah And whether it's just in the psyche of someone who owns a beachfront Property in Costa Rica and has owned it before there were even local surfers there.

[00:58:40] Mm hmm and then saying well This is my sport rather than recognizing that there are these kind of people Privilege, entitlement, resistance, dynamics happening through the ways that localism is being enacted. You know, it is, like you said, it's kind of tone deaf and it's, it's not recognizing those power dynamics in places related to ownership, [00:59:00] access, freedom, et cetera.

[00:59:01] Tyler: What I love though, is that a lot of the local communities have adopted surfing, but they make it their own. They, you know, uh, I, I don't want to say appropriate, but they, you know, they, they They take surfing and they're like, okay, and they put their own culture into that. And that, those are the things that I love to see when local surfers take surfing that maybe, maybe a colonial surfer brought over there, but then they make it their own.

[00:59:28] They put their own style into it, their own, you know, uh, graphics on their boards or clothing style or whatever. And then they, they even develop certain attitudes around it that's slightly different. But it is interesting that you mentioned like the localism aspect and being. Almost taught by, by the surfers who came, uh, I remember being in Morocco and wanting to go surf, uh, Safi, and it's a really good wave, but heavily localized because a French [01:00:00] surfer went down there, bought the land around it, and then encouraged the local surfers to Harass any surfers who weren't part of his tour.

[01:00:09] Tara: Wow. You

[01:00:10] Tyler: know, and you've seen that in lots of places like, um, and I'm curious, like, places like Nihi in Sumba, which is a private, private resort. You can't go there to surf. Or, uh, Tavarua, how it used to be, not anymore. Like, do those models work? Do you feel that those private, Landownerships that limit people to the breaks.

[01:00:33] Do you think that is negative or positive for the local people?

[01:00:38] Tara: That's a really good question And that question came up for me also as I was reading the the latest piece in OnSurf Tourism in the surfers journal and their latest issue. I don't know if you haven't

[01:00:47] Tyler: read it yet Yeah, it's

[01:00:48] Tara: definitely worth a read they look at Three different models of surf tourism and kind of try to analyze what's working.

[01:00:55] What's not so I think it's that The question is in the [01:01:00] air about what is the best model and I don't think we can find the best model and then apply It as a blueprint in different places. Yeah, and I think that's what people often want to do, right? Okay, this is working at Nihi. So let's do it everywhere, right?

[01:01:13] um And I think, I'm not even the right person to ask that question to. Right, I think asking a local community how they're experiencing that type of model would be a good place to start. Um, Working with a community to develop a model that would be supportive of their needs, et cetera. I think the Nehe model is interesting, right?

[01:01:35] They're, you know, sold out. Surfers book their spots.

[01:01:38] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:01:39] Tara: you know, years in advance. They

[01:01:41] Tyler: pay a lot of money, too. Exactly,

[01:01:42] Tara: and you don't know if there is even gonna be swell necessarily when you show up. Right. Which to me is just crazy, but they've built out a model that is very sought after and it does keep crowds low at that point at that particular break.

[01:01:56] Right. So, you know, and I've, I've actually lived in Zumba [01:02:00] for a couple of months. I did a work trade at Nalumkala, which is down the beach a bit, um, doesn't have a private wave in front, but they are like a permaculture community and, you know, work, work, work, Sustainably with local people, et cetera, um, but seeing the Nihi model and kind of contrasting that to other spots in Zimbabwe or other spots in Indonesia, I think for the paying surfer, it's an incredible experience, right?

[01:02:26] You get an uncrowded world class wave right in front of the place you're staying. Does it support conservation of the area around it? Probably. And is it contributing to the local tourism? Um, Economy on Zumba, yes, so it might check off a lot of those boxes, but again, I'm not sure I'm the right person to respond to that because I like to promote approaches that are community oriented and centered in that way.

[01:02:51] Tyler: Have you been following what's going on in El Salvador with the growth of Zumba? Uh, the investment in surf city at all

[01:02:59] Tara: a bit. [01:03:00] So I'm not the expert on El Salvador. I think I'm just more more

[01:03:04] Tyler: from a from a top down, like kind of outsider view of it. I'm just curious, like from what you've seen and people, maybe you've talked to, like what your thoughts are on that type of investment and what you've seen.

[01:03:15] What they're doing to that area.

[01:03:16] Tara: Yeah. So it's happened very quickly as well. I think in post COVID years, especially with the current president has really cracked down on gang violence, et cetera. It's become more of a hospitable place for foreigners to travel. Whereas in the past it was like kind of seen as scary.

[01:03:31] Do I really want to go there? I've had some scary situations myself in El Salvador traveling as a woman surfer. Um, And I haven't been back since COVID and it's somewhere I want to go kind of see what's happening, but I, you know, see content from there. I have a lot of friends who live there, work there, et cetera.

[01:03:48] Um, and I think it's a bit of a mixed bag, right? So this idea that I know they are working to really develop even on the eastern coastline, which was kind of the wild east. Yeah. [01:04:00] But seeing like how La Libertad is now a place where they're hosting surf contests, where that was like the sketchy place that you go and probably get knifed, right, as a foreigner.

[01:04:11] Um, so I'm not sure. It's hard for me to really Speak to that, not having been there and not having researched it myself, but kind of looking at the ways that they are wanting to use surfing and surf tourism as a, you know, fueling a development model. I could, you know, critique that in the way that I've critiqued surf tourism development in other places,

[01:04:34] Tyler: of course.

[01:04:35] Um, I want to ask then, like, you know, how can our listeners be better travelers then? What are some of the recommendations? What are the things we should look out for? How should we go about surf travel moving forward? And what are the things that, you know, You look for when you go travel and, and, you know, I was hoping maybe you had some recommendations or tips for people.

[01:04:57] Tara: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the things we've already been talking [01:05:00] about. So, you know, hiring local guides, focusing on staying places that are owned by locals, if you can find them, um, checking your entitlement at the door, recognizing that if there's a pecking order in the surf lineup, you're kind of at the, at the end of it.

[01:05:14] And you know, approaching places with kindness and respect. I always think about. Yeah. Thinking about sustainable tourism or how to be a sustainable tourist or traveler. It's like how would you behave in somebody else's grandmother's home? Yeah, right. You don't sit on the couch unless you're instructed to sit on the couch kind of thing um And it's it's that sort of mentality and mindset shift beyond just wanting to support locals and local economy It's how to how to behave Respectfully in a place that is definitely not yours and an openness to, you know, experiencing the local culture rather than just wanting the culture to cater to you as the tourist, you know, those sorts of things.

[01:05:53] Tyler: And can you talk a little bit about tarantula surf and your your program there and what that entails and [01:06:00] how. You know, uh, how that differs from some of the other stuff that we've discussed.

[01:06:05] Tara: So Tarantula Surf is kind of an umbrella, broad, I guess, platform that is where I house a lot of the different things that I do.

[01:06:14] So it has some of my creative writing, it's a home for, you know, sharing information about upcoming retreats that I'm hosting. It talks about the educational surf travel that I do, some of the research that I do. I think it's all, it's also in a process of transition. I'm not quite sure what the future of tarantula surf holds.

[01:06:32] It might be outdated at this point. I'm not sure. Um, but the idea is that the different projects that I'm working on, I'm sharing those on tarantula surf. Um, and then currently I'm thinking about working on, um, A new surf tourism related project that I won't give a lot of details about because it's in the initial stages.

[01:06:53] But kind of learning from what I did in my PhD, doing that in a different place and, you know, with some new [01:07:00] nuances based on the learning curve from that experience as well.

[01:07:04] Tyler: And what are your retreats like?

[01:07:06] Tara: So I have been running surf, yoga, and riding retreats. It's since 2017, 2018, and I started in Santa Teresa and now I host them in Southern Costa Rica.

[01:07:17] And the idea is they are for women surfers, so creating kind of a safe, unique space for women surfers to travel. See, I feel bummed out because

[01:07:25] Tyler: I always wanted to go. I see them and I'm like, I wish I could go, but I'm not, I wouldn't, you know, we're men, we take up so much space, but I do want to, you know, I would love to, I don't see any male surf retreats where we're riding and doing yoga and things like that.

[01:07:40] I think there is a market for that too, by the way.

[01:07:42] Tara: There is, and I, there are, there are some happening, I can put you in that direction. And I'm actually hosting one that isn't only for women. Nice. Um, in November, so I can talk about that as well. Um, and the idea is that we're linking kind of these creative flow practices, so surf, yoga, and writing, three of my [01:08:00] major passions in life, and doing it in a way that is meant to be respectful of local communities, support the local community, and conservation.

[01:08:08] Um, I can't say that my retreats are decolonizing, they're not. Is any retreat decolonizing? Maybe. And I think people are working towards that. Yeah. I don't know. But we are looking at community in those ways, and I, during the writing programs and the conversations that I'm having with the people who are visiting, we're talking about these things as well.

[01:08:27] So doing things in a way that feels sustainable, feels respectful, um, working with providers who are focused on regenerative farming, regenerative forestry, et cetera, and then making sure that we're working with locally owned surf schools at the same time.

[01:08:42] Tyler: Nice. And, um, did I see somewhere you recently got married as well?

[01:08:47] No.

[01:08:48] Tara: I did.

[01:08:48] Tyler: Congratulations. How's, how's that been going?

[01:08:52] Tara: It's been lovely. Marital bliss.

[01:08:55] Tyler: That's awesome. Did you guys have a honeymoon?

[01:08:58] Tara: We haven't yet.

[01:08:58] Tyler: Oh, where are we [01:09:00] going? It's in the

[01:09:00] Tara: works. I'm not sure. That one is, it's in the air at this point. I'll let you know when we know.

[01:09:06] Tyler: Well, Tara, I really appreciate you coming on and discussing all of this.

[01:09:11] This has been Really, uh, really informative and I encourage our listeners to go visit tarantulasurf. com. Is that it? Mm hmm. Go visit it because she's got incredible writing, uh, access to your paper and, and other, other thoughts and musings on travel and decolonizing, uh, surf travel and all these things and it's, it's beautiful and, and your retreats look awesome.

[01:09:37] So, um, I really appreciate you coming on. And, uh, you want to give our listeners. Just a quick, you know, plug of where they can find everything, even though I just mentioned your website. But if there are other places they can find you.

[01:09:48] Tara: Thank you. Yes. So you can check out my work on tarantulasurf. com. I also have an Instagram, tarantulasurf.

[01:09:55] Email tarantulasurf at gmail. com. So tarantula surf is still [01:10:00] happening for the moment. That's the best way to reach me And would love to host people on retreat in Costa Rica and also connect around these different topics that we've been Discussing here on the podcast. So thank you again so much for having me

[01:10:11] Tyler: No, it was my pleasure and I'm a huge fan of your work and I really appreciate that And, and listeners go definitely check her out.

[01:10:22] And, uh, of course, got to give a quick shout out to Joe here, our engineer for making everything run smoothly here at the newsstand studio at Rockefeller center in the heart of Manhattan. And of course, don't forget to check out at swell season, surf radio on Instagram, or you can go to our website, swell season, surf.

[01:10:38] com. And, uh, yeah, and, uh, I encourage everyone to. Read all about this and become better travelers, become better surfers, become better at being abroad and being more aware of the people we are affecting. So, yeah. And other than that, we'll see you all down the line soon. Thank you. [01:11:00] [01:12:00]