Dreaming Man with Mick Sowry

Hello and welcome to the swell season surf podcast. I'm Tyler Brewer. About two and a half years ago, we had on the show mix salary, a storyteller photographer. Filmmaker publisher, author and good friend. Uh, it's a great episode. I highly recommend you go check it out. It's episode number 1 48. Um, but, um, MC. Uh, was in town recently a few weeks ago.

And unfortunately I was away in, uh, I was not able to catch up with him. And then the one day we were. Uh, able to, or supposed to record an episode. I got really sick from traveling and, uh, unfortunately wasn't able to meet up with him, but. Luckily friend and contributor to swell season. Tati Stewart. Uh, was able to get together and catch up with Mick. Um, if you're not familiar with who, uh, mixed salary is, he is the award-winning writer, producer, and director of the reef. And musical certifica, two films that were made in collaboration with the Australian chamber orchestra. And, uh, quite possibly one of my favorite surf movies.

Definitely. My top five is music as certifica. It's, um, absolutely stunning and beautiful and well shot and very creative than kind of whimsical. I definitely encourage anyone listening to go check it out. Um, the other thing is make, has, um, was a publisher and creative director for the great ocean, quarterly, a journal of art ideas and the sea. Uh, he's been featured in the surfers journals.

Surfing worlds are flying. Uh, and in 2022, he published, uh, a spark becomes in is a limited edition hardbound book of photographs and observations precipitated by the sudden death of his wife, Sue in 2019. Um, mixed just an all around amazing guy. And you'll hear in this interview with him and Tati. You know, he's just a incredibly sweet person.

You can't help, but like, and love after you meet him in just I'm really humble, really smart, very articulate. And, uh, absolutely compassionate too, is what I really love about him. And he's very, uh, sensitive and open and yeah, he's just a phenomenal person and, uh, we're really stoked to, um, have been able to get some sort of recording while he was here in New York with toddy and. Uh, love Tati and, uh, the way he interviews is a lot of fun.

And I think you're really going to enjoy the show. So, uh, without further ado, here's toddy and Mick, and we hope you enjoy this. And. Don't forget to go. And check us out at swell season surfer radio on Instagram, or you can go to our website, www dot swell season surf, radio.com. And, uh, let's see, on the other side, you. If you hear the sound of sizzling bok choy in the background, it's because there's sizzling bok choy in the background. We're waiting for my sons to come back from the climbing gym while we finish up this podcast. What?

Um, I think the one, I mean the things that I, I mean I don't know what to capture in an hour with you, but 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,

8, 9, 10. What did you have for breakfast? Um, a croissant. A croissant? What kind? A plain croissant? A plain croissant with a black coffee.

Black coffee? Yeah. You're not going into the

cappuccino?

No. Just black, no sugar.

Right. Alright. You're not going into the

cappuccino? No. Just black, no sugar. Right.

We're recording now. Let's see. So, uh, I'll just start with this. I'll start in, how, it was like, um, nine years ago, eight years ago that I came to Australia?

Nine. Nine years ago. Yep. And my whole, my trip was predicated on this idea that I was going to make a film about talking to people. About being parenting, surfing, surfing, parenting. And I, you know, I was going to go talk to like, for instance, Wayne Lynch. I talked to him on the phone. I think I was going to go up there and interview him and just be like, what's it like having kids and trying to have a surfing life and all that, you know, just talk about kind of parenthood.

Yep. And, um, of course the day after I got to Sydney with. Robinson, my nine year old.

You had a hurricane or cyclone. Two cyclones. Two

cyclones. Two cyclones that hit exactly where we were going and I think one of them took out Wayne's house if I remember correctly.

Yeah, well, it's a while back. I can't remember particularly.

All I remember is that that was turning to doodoos for you and we started talking. Yeah. And um, I started to give you names and heading south. Yeah, from Sydney.

Yeah. I was going to go up to Noosa. I was going to go up the west coast, up to, or the east coast, up to Noosa, like. Pinging around. Yeah. Talking to people.

All of this, the, um, notionally significant parts of Australia from a surfing point of view, um, are that direction. Yeah. Um, well, and much more benign when you're taking a nine year old. Yeah. And, um, suddenly you're heading south and it's summertime and, um, was it summertime? It was. It was. Yeah. It was warm.

And you, um, it was. Because there was actually, because there was a, uh, cyclonic conditions on the east coast, that's, um, almost habitually means that the surf down on the out coast is rubbish. Right. So it followed you everywhere that it was, um, an unhappy coincidence of crap conditions. And I think we got, in the end, you ended up down my way and we only got little waves there too.

Yeah. Which was fine for a nine year old just learning to surf. Bye. What, you know, what the whole project called The Boys, The Boys Journey. The whole project was predicated on having these conversations with other parents, more or less, and finding other parents, and having these conversations, and doing these kind of things.

So it kind of went so far south in almost every

possible way. And actually, the people that I sent to you didn't have kids at the time, mostly, apart from, I think, on Phillip Island, Steve Demos, who was a great surfer, and a dad. Yeah, he was great too. An old schoolmate of mine. And, uh, and then you came over to my coast and obviously, you know, stayed with us.

Um, and you saw live parenting, live catastrophe, live catastrophe, parenting in action. Yeah. Um, cause it was mayhem usually as it was at our place at the time.

Well that's the thing. So that's what I was like, well, let's start, let's start this conversation with that, with kind of picking up, picking up from.

Where are we left off? Nine years in Jan

Duke. Jan Jack. Yeah. Jan, duke, . Jan. Jack. Jan,

Jack. So let's start, let's talk about that. I mean, you, you have a boy who's 31 1

and one's 28. 28. But at the time that, nine years ago, so, um, uh, Tommy was 19, I think. Yeah. And Joe was, take that much off again. So he would've probably been 23.

Um, um, or something like that. I didn't meet Joey

when we were there because he was off

doing his own thing. He would have been, he was living up in Melbourne. Melbourne. Going to university. He would have been at uni at the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so, uh, I'll just ask you the straight question now, the straight question thing.

Um, when you, what, what changed for you? My friend Karen is about to have a child. I saw, I was talking to her the other day, she and her partner are having a kid. And, um,

That's Lou. That's alright, just talk. Dog barks, I cry.

I gotta stop him at some point, cause he'll just keep barking. I think he's barking at us.

Hold on a second. Okay.

So, Karen is having a kid, and she was kinda like, So, what's, what's, she was talking about today, She's like, what's it like having a kid, and, you know, trying to surf, cause she's, she's really into surfing. She's a good surfer. And, um, And I was like, Oh man, it ruined my surfing life. And it did for a while. I mean, it didn't, and then it did.

It goes through these weird cycles. I found that my surfing life as a father went through these cycles. Of, I would be, uh, Like when it was a little baby, it was kind of okay. Cause I could kind of get away and I could come back. And there was like this weird kind of flexibility. But then it got to like toddler age.

As soon as they started to get into school and all that kind of stuff. It just, there was just no time. Feels like I was getting up at three or 30 in the morning, getting out for about a 45 minute surf and then getting back, you know, it's going out to ocean, you know, like Long Beach or whatever,

driving through.

Yours is a different experience to mine then. Um, because I think way back when Sue and I met, um, you know, she was, aware that I surfed. Um, and I, all I said was, you know, you got to, this is part of my life, let me do it. But, um, what was normally, because I lived in Melbourne, so it was weekend surfing for so many years, but because of the nature of where I live.

In fact, I probably could say that I got more good quality surf when I lived in Melbourne than I do when I live on the coast, because Melbourne's uniquely situated with three coasts, Phillip Island, the Mornington Peninsula, and the West Coast, that are all almost equidistant. Um, in time. So an hour and a half, or somewhere between an hour and ten and an hour and a half depending on road conditions.

And you've got an offshore and good swell because Victoria is almost constantly blessed with swell. So, for all of my surfing life. I could say it'll be offshore and there'll be waves whichever weekend I ever chose, ever. Um, and it'd be only once or twice a year that I didn't score. Um, so, you know, through all of those years before I met Sue, I'd have anything from six to twelve hours surfing on a weekend.

And then, um, because I'd have a couple of surfs a day, both days of the weekend, da, da, da. And I'd have my weekdays at work. And so

Sue would just stay at home with the kids? No, this

is before Sue. Oh, this is before Sue. Before Sue. So when we married, it was like, okay, and, and this is before, um, we had kids, which was six or seven years of marriage before we had kids.

Um, I'd go for a surf on the weekend, but I'd restrict it to one day, but I could go and have my. You know, get up early and go and have my three or four hours in the water and come back and maybe sometimes the next day, but usually we do our thing, you know, together stuff and it was all fine. You know, I wasn't sort of bleeding and if, if I had to get up, you know, sometimes I'd get up in the morning super early in a weekday, especially in that sort of switch of seasons where you could get down, leave at 4am, you could surf and be back at work and in, in the office at nine and have a couple hours in the water.

You'd driven an hour, three hours round trip, plus a couple hours in the water, but you'd get up super early because it was, sunrise was so early. Right. Um, so, but when the kids came along. Um, it was like, okay, I can have one surf a week. But when Joey was born particularly, it was like you're not going anywhere for 12 weeks.

Um, so because that was to get through all of that nursing inside, I didn't go surfing at all for, for three months. But what I did then was go rock climbing. Um, around Melbourne and I just disappeared for say two hours, find a wall, like a bridge, a bluestone bridge or some bit of rock and clamber because this was before climbing gyms, but there's a parallel in the rock climbing experience, you know, that thing of focus and so and physicality and either that or do laps at the pool.

What

did Sue do? Did she get away to do anything

like that? Well, Sue was much more a social beast, and it was time away. Some with friends or she'd go, you know, do the gym and stuff like that. But Sue was blessed with, um, uh, natural athleticism that she had a six pack her whole life without going to the gym.

And those rare occasions that she'd go and she'd go, you know, yawn, it's so boring. But she'd turn up and... People would go, how long have you been coming here? You look so fit. And she'd go, no, never. You know. And, and, um, yeah, she was, had an extraordinarily lucky metabolism. Um, so. Did

you find in your,

uh, Unlike me.

I don't know. You look alright. Um, did you, um, find in your relationship, I mean, how long were you guys married? How long were you guys together? Uh,

30, oh, 35

years. So, what, what part, what, what part did surfing and that sort of, that ability to get away from each other?

Uh, look, it was, uh, it wasn't trying to get away from her.

It was, it was to get that, that, that water time. It was more my mental health as much as anything. And, you know, I mean, Joey at Sue's funeral would made a very funny section of the speech about, You know, when I was around, why don't you go bloody surfing? And when I was away, where is that man? He's off surfing again.

So it was that those natural push and pulls of a relationship, but she was incredibly generous with, you know, I'll say inverted commas, letting me go for a surf, but because of, and she was completely, um, not completely aloof from it. She understood it and she, you know, knew so many surfers and she came to know.

Even quite a few through my various machinations, you know, well known ones and became quite good friends with a couple of them who adored Sue because, just because of the personality that she was. Um, Wayne Lynch being one and Nat Young being another because, um, they were friends of mine through just stuff, you know, like if you hang around the coast for long enough stuff happens like that, but, um, it was, um, Yeah, she was kind of special in that regard.

She was very generous, um, with my time. She didn't sort of stop me, but at the same time, I wasn't overly selfish in going like, I mean, I wasn't, I'm not a pro surfer. It wasn't my career. It wasn't anything like that. So it was just simply a thing I did. But, you know, as you know, as we get older, um, having that connection to the water keeps you, you know, physically far above your equivalent for your age.

Yeah, that's for sure. Um, and especially Um, with somebody, you know, like say a Victorian surfer like me, which, where we're blessed with swell and consistency, it's, it's, it's, you know, where I live is called the surf coast. It's just constant. And there's so many waves. I mean, you know, you get a whole raft of, you know, people with real longevity in the water, um, because they're in it all the time.

Um, so it's, we're lucky like that. Um,

did you, um. Did you have, when you have kids, did you think, I'm going to, were you thinking, I'm going to teach

them how to surf? Totally. And it was a complete disaster, um, because we lived in Melbourne. So, you know, from a very early age, I got them water safe, um, in very, like they were both having swimming lessons before they were one and they both became very, um, good swimmers like in the pool.

They were both, um, you know, highly competitive in their various age ranges, you know, up until they just all, you know, the various cluster fucks of, um, beat, um, cluster fucks of, of life, um, getting in the way of their athletic abilities, um, and both of them had swim coaches chasing them, um, and, and, you know, they had success and they were built for swimming.

But, um, when it came to surfing, Both could surf a bit, you know, I got them to that point. But I, what, an interesting thing happened with Tom, my youngest, who was very athletic in a board sports way. He was a great skateboarder and skater. He was a blader as well. You know, everyone says fruit beater, but if you watch the way they injure themselves, there's nothing fruity about it.

Um, and, um, but he, he discovered that and we lived in Melbourne and, um, It was very hard to learn to surf in Victoria sporadically on weekends in freezing winters. Um, until you start to get into your teens and the wetsuits fit and you've got more time and all of that. And by then they discovered their own pursuits.

Both can still, you know, like Tommy, because of his injuries, can't even, you know, he's got shoulder dislocations and all of that, but, and Joe, Joe can still go out in the water and, you know, go right and left and look like he can serve, but he's just more interested in his life up in town. But when they were both about 12, I'd take, I, you know how you did your boy's journey?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I took them away on. Like dad camping trips individually at that age and Joey in particular I took on a surf trip. And I remember distinctly this particular time taking him out to a break on Phillip Island. And we'd had, we'd been out in the water and it was a nice offshore and it wasn't too big and I said, I'm going in and he said, oh look, I want to stay for a little bit.

And so I'm walking up and I'm watching him out in the water and he's going for a wave and I realized that he's got it completely messed up in his timing and the waves coming up and feathering behind him and he's still paddling madly and not looking at the wave and I'm going, Oh, this is not good and I can't do a damn thing about it.

And it broke. It was only two, two and a half foot wave, but he was only 12 years old. And it was only two and a half foot wave. Broke top to bottom and hit him in the back of the head and drove his face into the board and pushed his front teeth in. And he comes up with his teeth bleeding and I'm going, oh for fuck's sake.

And... And that was the end of the weekend because we had to go off to the dental hospital to get all of that sorted. Um, so, you know, like, uh, and, you know, just these days when you have fathers pushing kids into the waves now and it's much more of a thing. Back then, it was a little bit more, um, leave them to their own devices, I thought, in that.

Try, you know, learn how to catch a wave and they, they got to that. Look, it's to my great regret that, that neither of them surf because of many of my friends, like the days that you've met, um, have got all of the kids surf really well, but it just didn't happen for me. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know what's going to

happen with my kids.

Well, I think in retrospect, I learned not to worry too much about it because they both found their own joys and, and, um, It's probably saved me a lot of money in surfboards,

so yes, so from a point of view of being a surfing parent, it was probably nowhere near where I wanted to be, you know, so yeah, it's, it's more of a solo journey for me now and my surfing life now is obviously after Sue passed. I can just go surfing like it was always after the kids were sort of into their teens.

Look, one thing that did happen through many years was school sport. And you know that, you know, you've got one, one more basketball and, and, uh, what were the other ones? Mostly basketball and, you know, the various school sports, swimming and football and whatever. But, um, every weekend it was school sport.

Um, so I'd only get these little windows for that schooling time of one morning a weekend where I'd go, or I'd go very early in the morning before the day of the sport and I'd be back by 10 o'clock and I've still got a couple of hours in the water. Yeah. But I'd leave it before dawn and be back.

I

mean, I, I find that like even, so we were talking, we were just talking about this a little while ago.

I was like, I really wanted to get. My younger one into rock climbing, so that he could avoid, I could avoid, I could avoid the weekends that are kind of obliterated by soccer. You know, I have to drive him all over the place to go to these. That's what happened with Robinson. He got super into soccer, which also kind of killed my surf time.

Because a big time for me to surf was always kind of Saturday and Sunday mornings. Also on the weekends, and then suddenly there was soccer on Saturday and soccer on Sunday.

I mean, the only other alternative was to not have them do it. Yeah. And, and when my kids were at school, school sport was compulsory.

Oh, it was? Yeah. So they had to do it. Oh, interesting. Um, so they had to choose, you know, it was through the year that was whatever sport was the, the year's sport. So, and so every weekend for literally those 12 years, more. 12. 15 years. I was taking kids to school sport or we were, you know, school basketball or whatever.

Um, and it was fun. It was all part of that life, but I, I, I sort of would love to have introduced them to having the, the oceanic life and all of that stuff. One, one thing I will say though, is that to do with just that water safety thing and the, and the, I did get to the point when we For years and years when, particularly in their, you know, before they were 10 or 11.

Because we have every holiday on the coast in the surf. And I would purposefully let them be caught out in rips. And I wouldn't let them ever go, um, unsighted. But I'd let them go into the water and if they got into the rip, I'd let them go out in it. And then I'd go out and get them and then I'd say, Okay, what's happened here and where was it?

And. That got them to the point where they know where they could do it. And it was also a thing where they always knew they were safe because I was there, but I got them to the point where they knew how to read it so they didn't get into the problem. So, now, like, in fact, when we first moved to the coast, and Tom was...

I think he was 15 hadn't surfed, he'd been actually over here in, uh, California, um, to be in a skate film. And he came back and we went for a surf at Bells and he took out, he wasn't board surfing at the time, and I'd made an Alaia, like a Pipe O Alaia, like a belly one. And he was, he, like, unsighted, hadn't been to Bells before, he was out the back before I was, and roaring across five foot.

Bells on a, and it was proper, proper sized bells and he was just bang into it. He just, he got it. And it was so frustrating when he goes, yeah, but I don't want to be a beginner again. You know, like he had all the water skills, like the knowledge, the feeling, but he didn't, he was so used to being like world class prone on the skates that he didn't want to go through that thing, you know, self conscious and being the new kid in town and all of that.

And by now he'd be hot. Yeah. He probably wouldn't have had the injuries that have almost crippled him. Yeah.

I mean that's why I started surfing. Besides the fact that I, I was a wannabe surfer for many years. Up in Seattle. But I fell off a cliff, I was rock climbing at 15. And I hit, and it was hard. Mm. And I slid and I was out and all the, you know, all the things, and then the, you know, the medevac came and all, you know, I was, I'd fallen a long way.

And then I was snowboarding a lot of the time. My father was a ski patrolman and I was falling all the time. I dislocated my shoulder. I broke my elbow going off a cliff, like all this stuff. Finally I was just like, I don't want to hit hard things

anymore. Well that was my, my attraction to surfing almost from the beginning was that you could fall and.

Not be hurt and I was always water comfortable because I lived on the beach, you know, from my earliest we lived in the water, you know, like I was born in Fiji and we, even though, you know, my first few years lived on flat water, oceanic places, but not with waves coming in, or not big ones, but, you know, snorkeling and, you know, storm surf, body surfing, just rough water, and I was just comfortable there.

And so when the opportunity to surf came along, I was right there ready for it. And my first, I think I've told you that, but my first experience or exposure to surfing was something like 1958. Um, seeing. Um, a car with boards on top opposite, opposite my front gate with my dad and that perked my interest and got me.

intrigued and I'd always be seeing that and I'd see it on the television when television came because it was actually pre television in Australia. Um, and I saw it on the telly, you know, early like Pat Curran type YMU Bay stuff and I go whoa, whatever that is, that's, that's me. And, but it was until I was like 14, 1968 that I actually, or 13 or 14, that I actually got on a board and it was sort of all over Red Rover.

Um, for me then, but again, it was the learning experience was 14 in nowadays is a late stage surfer learning, but now 14 to 55 years ago, you know? So

well, I think a lot of, like a lot of my friends who have kids who were surfers, they're thinking like, I don't want a lot of, and a lot of them started late.

Like, really late. Like, even later than me. I mean, I thought I started surfing at 17, right? Like, that's when I first went into the water. I'd done all everything else, but... So I started really late. And all these parents I know are thinking to themselves, Well, how do I get my kid to start earlier? Start

earlier.

Yeah. Look, uh, and that, that obviously begs into that, um, fallacy, or not fallacy, but that whole rabbit hole of... Um, surfing dads like sport dads, you know, you hope that they'll be good enough to be a pro and all of that. And that crossed my mind, particularly with, uh, Tommy because he was, you know, very athletic, um, you know, kinesthetic sense, although.

You know, he could have probably been he had the physical talents to do it, but you have to have to have the opportunity You know, there's a million John Florence's sitting in the Midwest probably. Yeah, you know or in Mumbai

But you also have the mindset you want it. Yeah, you have to have that mindset kids.

I mean you see the kids doing anything Yeah And then the kid that's like sitting there and is just as good at, you know, rock climbing is, Ruben's good as any kid in that gym over there at that rock climbing gym. He's just like, Jushi's like a little spider. But I'm like looking at him going, Oh, you don't want to be told what to do.

You don't want to be coached. You know, there's a mindset you have to have early enough. It seems like the people who do pro stuff are already predisposed. to being so focused on one single thing? Well,

that's that thing of, at pro level of anything, you have to have the, an obsessive mindset about one thing.

Yeah. Um, and then you'll become good enough because obviously, you know, we all, we've all seen talented, um, surfers that have got other interests in their world and they will never be like pro level. Um, but they're much more enriched humans for that because they've got a diverse set of interests. Yeah.

And I'm, and I'm much, I'm happy that I never went into that space. You know, you have little daydreams about it when you're 17, but Christ, no, you know, I'd much rather have, um, despite all the catastrophes of. You know, we all have in life, you know, like I'm happy the way I've gone it's because I've got to do the other things that I'm interested in, you know, so it's, that's kind of, so surfing for me is one of those things I do and it's been my lifesaver, particularly over the past.

We're not, no, surfing hasn't been my lifesaver at all, but what it has, the act of sitting in the water has been a lot because that. Um, you know, as you know, and probably all through my surfing life, um, I've sat thinking more than I've done surfing, you know, because we all do that, but it's also, you know, like in my advertising years, I'd be sitting out the back trying to nut out a problem, a work related thing.

And when I'm not doing that, I'm thinking about some other thing in that sort of. Variety of creative things that I've sort of actively pursued trying to fail at. So, um, but you know, just continually trying to do stuff, but surfing's that thinky place.

Yeah, it is. All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop us here and make maybe a

cup of tea.

All right. Would you like a tea? Sure.

We lived in that, this really rad little house, right on the park. Yeah, right. And then we got kicked out of that.

Right. in a crazy circumstance. And this was the only place that was cheap enough to get into. It was like the only, it was kind of like also what we could afford. Everything here is so expensive. I mean this place is really cheap. Really inexpensive for it. And um, Oh, Lou. He's just gonna sit back there and bark.

And he's gonna clip here and bark.

Yeah. It's alright. It'll be just Lou in the background. It's Lou in the

background. I have a dog, just so everyone knows there's gonna be a dog in this podcast, um, barking in the background because he loves Mick Sowery and just wants to be next to him. But if he's next to Mick Sowery, he'll bark right into the microphone.

And we can't have that. We can't

have that. So we're in my apartment in Brooklyn, in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, uh, having a All of the sounds of Greenpoint, Brooklyn, including whatever sounds happen in my apartment.

Happy days. Happy days.

Um, I mean, so, there's a couple things going on with you that I, like, Marina asked me, my wife asked me, she was like, I was so excited when you were going to come to New York.

Um, and again, I'll do like a whole thing about why you're here. But I was so excited when you were coming. And she was like, oh, you're... I really love Mick, you know? And I was like, yeah, I really, I really love Mick. Mick is an inspiration to me. And she was like, what, what, you know, she was just being curious.

She was like, what is it about Mick that's so much better than everybody else? I was like, well, you know, it's not better than everybody else, but he is a personality, you know, he's older, he's like an older surfer, an older artist. You and I are the same, super similar. Like, like whatever we did where our careers are similar, like what we're interested, we're both artists, we're both surfers, both have kids, two boys even, you know, there was just a lot of things that I looked at you and you've had all these things then.

And, uh, and particularly I've known you for only 10 years or

so. Well, really? No, it's more like 16.

Well, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. But still like, uh, you know. What I witnessed in your life, you talk about the crises and the catastrophes. I've witnessed those from afar. But you always just kind of got on with it.

Yeah. And um, there were moments I'm sure that I didn't see. Yeah. We would talk and you would just be getting on with it. And then you had a process of getting on with things. Both as an artist and you've always, you've always had like the, Sort of something going on. You just kept going. You just wouldn't let it die.

Well, you're the same way with your

surfing. Yeah. Well, it's, um, look, I'd say, uh, I couldn't say I'm a successful artist, but I'm an arts inclined person. And it's just what you do. And being, uh, of a creative mindset of whatever degree of success you have is. It's kind of a curse. Both my sons have got it. Um, you know, that's just the way they think.

And every arts inclined person that you know can't let it go. And my trajectory as a young person, right way back I could always draw and I could always write to some degree. And they were probably my most natural talents. Um, so, but I was also incredibly curious as a kid to the point that I didn't know what I wanted to be.

And so when it came time to the part of life where you have to actually study, it was out of confusion for me. And around that time, I also discovered surfing so that I was just, um. Uh, wanting to go surfing when I should have been in exams. And I'd go surfing on the day of exams in year 12. Or, you know, when I was final year.

So, I ended up having to repeat that year just because I went surfing on the day of exams. I mean, it was completely stupid and utterly illogical, but I didn't know what I wanted to be. And then I ended... University, um, doing something that I could get into just because I could draw. And at the time I was working on a tin mine in Tasmania in a school holiday job to pay for my next surfboard.

And I tried to get into industrial design and I hadn't done art in many of my, For about three years at school, so they said do a drawing, so I went to the local post office and bought a box of colored pencils and a pad and did a drawing and sent it in to them and got into art school. I mean, it was that loose back then and, and did a year of that course, then changed to art school.

design, graphic design, um, still was uncommitted because I didn't know where I wanted to be and ended up getting thrown out of that because I wanted to go surfing all the time. I was, I was a complete loose unit and, but ended up in advertising and made a career at that because that type of mindset of curious and literate was probably enough, um, to get you going back in those days.

And then you learned on the job and now, you know, oddly enough. 20 years later, I was lecturing that subject at the uni for a couple of years, you know, art direction for advertising. It was more, yeah. And, um, there you go. Like, and I said, I don't have a degree in this and they said, it doesn't matter. We know what your work's like.

And so you end up doing it, but, um, you know, where was I going with all of that?

You did have a moment though, when you were, you had a moment. It was, I don't know, was it a crisis when you made music? A cica? Yeah.

No. Was that a crisis moment? Yeah. Was that, yeah, that was a crisis moment. So go back. I, I had a life in the ad industry.

Um, I was always drawing or had a, some sort of painting idea or some sort of thing always on the side when I was in the office, you know, I even had my own business for a while. Every time I had downtime, I'd be doing little paintings. Um, I had two parts to my studio, which was the painting bit and the work bit.

And it was all just exploratory, mucking around, um, you know, satisfying my own little curiosities. But come to the point that I'm, uh, turned 50, and in the advertising industry, 50's old, and I really felt like life was passing me by to try to chase some dreams. And so we own the best part of a, you know, uh, you know, we had a nice house in a good suburb in Melbourne and, uh, Sue said, look, you, you're driving me nuts, we'll, you know, at least try.

And we sold our house and I put all the money in the bank and started to make a, a film that was about surfing. And I asked. Richard Tognetti from the Australian Chamber Orchestra in a random email, um, whether he might be interested in doing the sound design. And he rang me up and one thing led to another.

And I was suddenly off on Phillip Island with Derek Hynde and a team of surfers doing finla surfing at a time when no one had a clue except Derek. And Derek was wonderful at it. But the premise of the whole thing was this, um, risk in creativity. Well, that was the one that we gleaned from it. And

so do you feel like when you were, let's go back a minute, when you were 50, you were approaching 50.

I was past 50. You were past 50. Did you like see the writing on the wall in your mind?

You were like, Oh, look, I just knew that if I didn't try something, I'd have just regretted not doing it. Yeah. And, and I had no, no, like I was basically throwing Our lives to the winds, literally, um, because I could have stuck it out and, you know, move from one degree to another in, but I'd never wanted to be, and this is true, I'd never wanted to be the boss.

I didn't like, I didn't like being the arbiter of people's lives. I didn't like that idea. Yeah. Um, I didn't like the idea of having to sack somebody. Um, I liked nurturing people. That's why I really enjoyed lecturing and watching. Seeing somebody have, having a feel for them and going, okay, I can help you here.

I can see where you're good at something and let you go. But I didn't like the idea of it because I'd seen it too often in my many years in the industry of just shit head bosses and creative directors that were so full of themselves that they, the only way they could, um, assert authority was to belittle people.

I didn't like that. And I didn't want to be. become that. I didn't want to be part of that. So I got out and um, you know, a bad set of circumstances with the GFC lost most of the house. So that sort of also colored the um, ensuing years. What's GFC? The global financial crisis. Oh, right. Yeah. So I had put all my money in a fund that went, you know, everything just went messy.

So I made Musica Surfica and that's where I met you. Um, at the, the, um, New York surf film festival. And that was a turning point from a, not a turning point, but a signal point, I reckon you'd say in expanding my world of people that I knew that I really cared about. And that's where the beginning of our friendship was.

Tyler Brower, um, to a degree, um, you know, um, Christian Teal, um, just because I met this New York surfing community that I suddenly felt connected to because there was a really cool, smart group of people that living in this cosmopolitan city. that had other lives. And that was the bit that I was interested.

Surfing was the common point, but, and, um, you know, Joe Falcone who was doing law or something like that, but then he was doing shaping, you know, and, and just really interesting guys all over and, um, Dave Dennis with his t shirts. And, and so I've never lost this connection to New York. And so I did it. I did music and blah, blah, blah.

And. It won all of these awards, but never made any money, but it's still a, when people see it, they still enjoy it because it had something to say in a quiet way. And

do you, um, so in that sense, it was like a, I mean, there's like a, uh, It's a bittersweet success.

Well, you know, like it was learning on the job.

I'd never done a film before and it was just winging it. And I, it wasn't just like, I had a good edit, really good editor. Uh, and, um, I had, um, a couple of producers that were helping in different ways and both of those guys in Simon Whitney and Richard Keddie, um, Contributed some sort of, you know, sort of probably storyline experience that I was unaware of within the, in the film mode.

And, but, you know, the thrust of the idea and all of the cutting and all of that was sort of based around this sort of general idea. And you know what it's like when you're cutting a film, it evolves. It's a

whole thing you have to learn about the film once you've already shot it.

That's right. It's a whole other film you're finding.

Yeah, that's right. It uncovers itself. It's peeling like onion layers or whatever. But in the end, you know, when we finished it, it felt like it felt in my heart. When I conceived it. And that was kind of what I wanted. That's delicious. Yeah. And so, but it was obviously it's the sum of all of the people that were involved in it.

Yeah. But you were also, you've also like, I mean, I met you in 2008, I guess, at the, yeah. I think I have a picture of us standing next to each other. It's some

funny picture. With all these giant Americans.

With these big guys. Yeah. Um. But I, I would, I think the thing that we talked, we talked about that, we talked about all sorts of stuff, like right off the bat, we had a good conversation.

And then ever since that moment, you and I seem to be trading, like, I don't remember how long it was between we, when we first met, we kept that conversation going, but just like, there always seemed to be something going on where every time I talked to you, you'd be like, Oh, I'm doing this now. And then you'd talk to me and I'd be like, Oh, I'm doing this now.

And there was this weird trading off of, of, Oh, I'm doing this, well I'm doing this, well I'm doing this, I'm doing this. Um, you're, you're significantly older than me. 20 years. Like, really way older than me. I'm

just joking. Well, I am. You're just about to be 50 70.

So, but, I mean, but you've been doing this a lot longer than I have.

And I'm constantly looking at you going, Oh yeah, if Mick can do it. If Mick can keep. And then you did the Reef and the Reef Redux, Great Ocean Quarterly. And I kept thinking, if he can keep... And then you always have these painting projects going on, and you always have these other things happening. And um, I just always found that really like a, uh, uh, uh, not icon, but um, sort of like a whatever, you know?

I put it up there. It's like, oh, that's a good role model. There's a role model situation there.

Well, I do. I, I, I, hopefully, um, you, you'll do better than me, but I think the, more the point is the constant doing. I mean, what happened after Musica Surfica was that I was, um, about 18 months later, I was offered the chance to do The Reef, um, which was a much grander idea that the Australian Chamber Orchestra had.

And, um, I've, I found out, I think I've told you this serendipitously that they. I'd already started putting it up and the advertising for the film and it hadn't even been made and I hadn't been told I was directing it or I even asked. And then I went, Oh really? And so this, the idea was originally again to take the orchestra up to a remote location and um, and it was originally to incorporate indigenous music and all of these things.

And I had these grand schemes of sort of doing another. Um, extension of the way I did Musica Surfica and build a, um, a documentary into the concert. Um, and even wrote a screenplay for it, um, which, or a treatment for it, and, uh, that got some traction, but I realized that I was muddying the waters in my concentration and I sort of pulled back and just went, okay, I'll do the reef.

So I, um, had to sort of build a structure to something that was unscriptable. And, uh, so I just decided that when we'd go up there, we'd try and build a, a timeline in the shooting that was dawn to dusk, that was analogous to birth to death, which was, um, high in my mind because in that particular, or just a couple of years prior to that, I'd lost my dad.

So mortality was high in my mind and, um, And so we went up there and that became the substructure of it. And I went up there, um, with a team of, oh, about ten surfers amongst them. You know, there was, um, the main ones would have been, um, Derek. And who was also the director of the surfing because it was all supposed to be finless.

And I had, um, asked, um, for Ryan Birch to come along as a, as an adept who had picked up finless surfing and, um, we had, um, Dane Beaver and Tully Beaver and, and, um, that was kind of the focus of the surfers and then a catering crew and safety. And we had to do all of this because it was a big. production number and they've had members of the orchestra and it was this, it was fantastic.

Um, and Derek's presence was probably iconoclastic. You know, he was being Derek and that powerful personality that he has, and he brought a lot to a lot to the table in his surfing. And there was a Tension between, not a, a tension in personalities, but a tension in Derek wanted all of the surfing to be finless and I wanted, um, there to be some finned because we had a marvelous finned surfer in, in both, um, Dane Beaver and And, um,

Ryan, Ryan,

sorry, yeah, that's an elderly moment, um, um, and Ryan and Ryan was astonishing. And he was just 21 at the time, 21, 22 and a revelation because of his brain, because he's an incredibly smart young man and, and he's, and he had these boards that. You know, it's pickle forks and these strange things that he was evolving at the time that's turned into a whole movement now, and you could see that happening then, and he was also astonishing on, you know, he bought his Lord board that square of styrofoam.

So all of these things were going on and we were shooting and trying to build. Stuff and there was some creative tensions that went on and there was the night of the long knives Which is sort of probably less spoken about the better But involved alcohol and mayhem, but all of that spoke to Created, um,

and some very

heavy waves.

Oh, the waves were ridiculous. Well, sort of heavy, um, tombstones you can't laugh about. I mean, it's a very powerful, it's like a 400 meter long pipeline when it's on. You know, the truth was we never got huge tombies. We got maybe up to eight foot, but you know, watching Ryan drop into an eight foot tombstones wave on a piece of styrofoam.

It's pretty interesting. Um. We managed to, we shot over a two and a half week odd period, then we had to come back to, um, Victoria. We had three weeks to edit it, and then it was, um, Um, on the screen at the Darwin, you know, Opera House for what of a better word. And then it toured Australia, did the Sydney Opera House, did all that, went to China, went to Europe, um, and was quite successful.

And I was as proud as punch of it. And you know, I must mention obviously that my shooter was John Frank. And so John and I and Richard were the core creative team on it and we were choosing music. that Richard had a bigger palette of music and we honed down to these particular 21 odd pieces that we had to then, okay, put them in a chronological order, think about the feeling for the day, you know, this, this, this mythic day of dawn to dust, birth to death, and try and build it out of all of the footage we shot.

And it was just this mad, like, A big painting that we were trying to create and I was as the director and I say writer because no very few words were written but conceptually there was this timeline that I was trying to stick to and the director part came in as much as anything in trying to stick to that conceptually as we were building it and so John who's very who's editing style would have to be the very emotional and feel based and mine was coming from advertising idea and and the idea was prime and then the feeling comes towards the idea.

So I was having to sometimes manage John or do a cut and it'll be got Johnny. We're talking about this, not that it's this time of day. They're not that time of day because we've got this timeline, but he's his feeling for the actual cutting. He's brilliant, you know, and he brings that brilliant eye to things.

Yeah, that flow. And the feeling. And, and he and I, you know, over that reef and the subsequent one became very close friends and we still remain so. Um, and, and it was, but you know, very different creative styles. And, and actually that period also created a fantastic relationship between John and the orchestra.

And I've. Subsequently done a few things that where it's Johnny's done some stuff he's done I think called the crowd and two or three like great friendship there's a whole there's probably three things that he's done since with Richard you I

mean you look back kind of these cycles of your life or these sections of your life I mean do you look look at him like that do you can you see Different.

Oh, that,

that, that, yes. Um, well, that period with the orchestra is definitely that. Um, I, I think on reflection, um, you know, I was definitely biting off more than I could chew a lot of the time. I, I was going, I've got no idea. Like if you can imagine sitting in a little studio in Janja, cutting something that you know is going to be on at the Sydney Opera House in two weeks.

Yeah. You know, that's pressure. Um, and, and then. Doing it again a couple of years later with even more pressure because you know that we had, there was, you know, benefactors throwing money in and we need to go up for another shoot and

all that. This seems like a, seems like a, like a regular pattern with you in your life.

I mean, you throw yourself into certain things. You, you, you go surfing instead of taking your final exams. You. Then you, you write, you draw, you go to the, the, the post office and you get some pencils and you draw something and you send it in and they're like, yeah, come, come, come to school here. And you go to school there and then you go to school and then suddenly you're like, Oh, I guess I'll go into advertising.

I mean, I don't know how that worked. You met Sue. Suddenly you're like, well, I guess I'll be partners with this person, you know, and then you're having kids. And I mean, it feels a little bit like. You have, you've, you've had that sort of sparkly ability just to, to tumble into things.

Yeah, pretty much. Do you feel like that?

Yeah, a little bit. It's more like, um, it's not planned, um, but Like, I probably, if I've got a talent that's been fairly good at a lot of things, but, you know, jack of all trades, he, you know, and I can understand things quite quickly, um, and get my head around it. So that lets me, but there's a bit of kill them all, let God sort them out.

You know, it's like, I'll just give it a crack. And um,

how does that work with you and the

idea of failure? Oh, well, that's just hand in hand. I feel like I've pretty much failed at everything, you know, honestly. Um, but, um, you've got to just try. And that being said, you know, like, I, I'm very critical of the work that I personally critical with the ACO work.

Um, only because I know that on reflection I could have done so much better. That's the

Australian Chamber Orchestra. Yeah,

Australian Chamber Orchestra. And you've got to remember that this is an incredibly significant group of people. You know, Richard is one of the finest musical artists Australia has produced ever.

You want to watch him play. His partner Sadie Vansker is. The whole orchestra is full of virtuosos. They're amazing. Uh, the guardians called 'em the finest small orchestra on Earth. Uh, I've seen them play at the Ojai Music Festival, and the, and the American crowd is rapturous. You know, this is discerning, you know, with Dawn Upshaw, who's one of the greatest, um, singers in America, you know, watching her with them, like they were, they're phenomenal.

So it was a great privilege for me to actually be included in that. Um, for six or seven years or more. And I'm still friends with Rich. He comes every time there's a swell. He rings me or texts, you know, what's the waves going to be like? We go surfing. Um, we. You know, his, his instruments, all of their instruments are off the hook, but I've had like 14 million, 15, 16 million worth of violins in my car.

But you're critical of the final

output. Well I am only because like lots of things really, because I particularly maybe the second reef I felt like, you know, there was all of this in, try this, try that, and I wasn't strong enough, I feel, to. And probably inex to inexperience to say, look, we need to not have that, we should do that.

Um, Richard threw some advice at me a couple of times that I didn't take and because I felt like I had, I was trying to keep the, the line of the idea. Mm. But it was a, it was a mixed. There's conflict, um, which is natural. Um, and, and after the fact, um, maybe I should have been a little bit more collaborative, but I was, but you know, I was just doing my best at the time, you know, and, and, uh, it's me, my mind playing games with me about what, what, what could I have done better.

And when I look at it, it's really, it's good. But obviously with any, any artwork, it's could have been better. And but subsequently the ACO has gone on to do two other things called, um, river and um, mountain, which I urge anybody listening to this to get onto iTunes and look up river or mountain because they're incredible.

Then you after the reef, was that when great ocean quarterly came

up? Well, yes and no, I, I, I'd started, I'd had this idea for a magazine of, For, for people that were world curious people with a passion for the sea.

So just, yeah. So let me just, let me just set this up because Great Ocean Quarterly came in between, in between the surf music and the Reef.

Or the Reef Reef redux.

Uh, yeah. Well I had the idea for the, uh, GOQ probably in 2000 8 0 9. Right. You know, around the same time that I met you. Yeah. Uh, I was designing it in my. Computer,

you know. So the Kratos Quarterly, so people who don't know and you should, you know, um, is a, it was semi annual. It was for a while.

No, it was a quarterly. Quarterly. Yeah. We did

it for three years. Yeah. Three years. Quarterly. About ideas in the

sea.

Yeah. So, so what was the, what was, yeah, what's the. The, the, the crux of that, yeah, the, the elevator pitch on GOQ

and then, well, I had, I designed it. It was sitting there. I, uh, one of my friends, Mark Willett said, you know, we were just yarning and I said, Oh, have a look at this.

I don't know. I can't remember. I showed him and he, he, Mark's quite entrepreneurial and he said, we've got to do this. And it

was a magazine,

a quarterly magazine, quarterly magazine, but well, it was, yeah, great ocean. But the idea was. For, as I said, world curious people that curious, curiously minded people, um, with a lean towards the ocean, anybody with water out the front would be interested in what we have it, but it wasn't about surfing.

It couldn't be about surfing. It had to be about. Uh, philosophy and poetry and art and photography and literary writing and, and stuff. It was like a mixture of, um, National Geographic and New Yorker and Nautilus magazine or something like that. But it had to be for people that thought, you know, and that was it.

And so I was hooking in anybody I knew that had good signs and say, could I use this in my mock up? And I just designed it all and went, okay, this is working as a thing. And then I just left it there, but it was just niggling at me and Mark saw it and then he said, let's do it. And we thought, well, I can't be the creative, you know, I can't do everything.

I can't be the editor and the designer and it's just too much me. And we had a mutual friend in Jokserong who was. Um, very clever lawyer barrister who was wanting to jump into novel, you know, as a novelist. Um, he'd written his first novel at the time and he was leaving the law to be a novelist. So he was taking, he was like all punt, punting his life on that.

And, uh, so we brought jock in and jock brought a fabulous voice to it and, uh, some discipline that. You know, if you know the mental force that a barrister has, he brought that sort of mindset to it. So it was very focused and strong, but he had, he was well read and he could do that part. And so we had this really good mix of three guys with very different, extremely different personalities.

So you did, you just came out with another, I just received it literally today in the mail. Um, now you're doing them. as you will,

as they're available. Okay. So the history of it was we did it with, we were trying to get to a critical mass market, done spreadsheets. And we thought we'd in four or five magazines, we'd be making money, enough money to make it a thing that we could keep doing for years and years and let it grow.

As it turned out, after three years, our sales were going up, but then we needed at least another three to get to a point where we could I think we were getting there, and we didn't have any money left. And, you know, it was literally a case of, well, we've got to pull the pin. Even though we'd planned another publication, we had this day where we'd go, Oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do that.

And then the spreadsheet came out, and we went, We can't do anything. Abandon ship. You know, it was literally every man for himself. So we, what we did do was, um, promised to each other that we would make sure that every single debt was paid and every person was paid out and, and it was sort of cut clean and that was it.

But it all cost each of us quite a bit of money to do so. Um, so it was a great big loss. We never made a penny the whole time, but our heads were left high, you know? And so

give me, well, just give me three, let's just wait one, one to three exemplary Articles or projects or presentations inside the GOQ from those years that you're like, Oh Christ, there's so many of them.

Yeah, but these ones are like, they're not, they don't have to be your favorite. They don't have to be, but like, okay, this one really exemplifies what GOQ was all, is all

about. Oh, um, okay. Um, I'll give you three. There was, um, through that period, um, I became aware of an, a Victorian writer called Gregory Day.

And he had a piece in our first and second issues called the Seaganades, which was a short story about, um, sort of alluding to the silky, the mythical, um, seafolk of, um, the Hebridean tradition, but he'd written it in an Australian context. And it's a love story. And it was just the most beautiful thing.

And I, the experience for me to do the design for that and... and create that flow and that actually started a, are we still good? Yeah, we're good. Yeah. Um, that started a, um, a friendship that sort of progressed through to now and we're really close mates. And, um, He's a mentor to me at the same time. He's 10 years younger, but everyone's 10 years younger than me.

Um, he's a brilliant writer, like, you know, he just won the Patrick White Award for Lifetime Achievement in Australia. Like, he's a really great novelist, really great writer. And, um, Patrick White's a, um, Booker Prize winning. I think he's even a Nobel Prize for literature, who was a famous Australian novelist from years back.

But anyway, so Greg's book, um, I'm here in New York for the, um, We did a piece on a New York artist called Ran Ortner who I discovered, I think I discovered his paintings on that website, This Is Colossal, something like that, and um, was sort of quite taken by the artwork, or the work, and got in touch with him.

Interviewed him for the magazine. We got on like a house on fire, like very similar mindsets. And, um, we, um, did a feature article on him and we became friends. And that's why I'm in New York now, because he invited me out of the blue to his wedding. And it was one of those things where I went, uh, this is once in a lifetime.

I'm going to blow the bank, but bugger it, because I'm only here for six days. Um, so 48 hours of flying in six days isn't that much fun, but there you go. And

um... But Ran's work is like these massive paintings of the ocean, like this space, kind of very similar, actually, well not similar, but like in the same world as what you're doing actually with your photography.

But that's something that's another conversation. Well,

yeah, indeed. And like, I couldn't say it didn't influence me. influenced me a bit. Um, but at the same time, you know, you develop your own thing. But, so, Ran, um, that was significant. What else was there? We, well, Alexander Selmanov, who was in the, one of the more recent ones, who was a Russian underwater photographer.

Discovered his work, getting in touch with him. He's out on the ice in the, you know, Russian Arctic. Gets back to me, yep, no worries, I'll send you all of these shots, you know. And in fact, we were doing, on the absolute last issue of the mag, before we folded it, we were going to have a piece on him. And I had all the images, and then we pulled the plug.

So, you know, three, four, five years later, when we did the COVID edition of it, I went, I'm just getting out of it. Remember me? You know? And he went, yep, no worries. And they all come sailing in. And that happened time and again. And the great joy of doing the magazine was just discovering talent. Um, you know, there was, what was her name?

There was a young, um, New York, um, Zoe, Zoe something, um, her first published poem. She was from up this way. And she sent this poem in out of the blue and we published a poem. And that, and it was really good. And, and all of that sort of stuff. It was new talent, established talent. Um, you know, world, uh, David Dubele.

Um, the, he's had more covers of, um, National Geographic. Than any photographer and suddenly I'm on the phone to him and he's in his house with his iPhone showing me where he, you know, Oh, this is my, this room and these, these photos and, and you just, this wonderful thing, all this connection happens. And so the joy of doing a magazine like that is connection.

And then being able to, it's like showing off your work, but it's everybody else's work. Yeah. And that's like, there's a generosity to it and it's just

fun. That's how I felt when we had the gallery, we had the picture gallery. Yeah. It was just fun. It felt like I was showing my work, but it wasn't,

but it's not, but it didn't matter.

It was

felt amazing.

That's right. And, and, and being, and look, the challenges were like I had to design and build the magazine. Yeah. And. I've got a very great friend who's a graphic designer and every time I do it, he goes, do you like it? And he goes, Oh yeah, what was wrong with it this time? And Richard Cook, you're listening to this.

Um, and, but he, he, you know, when you've got somebody who's got a high level of respect and, but he's got a very, there's the right way and the wrong way. But for me. It's all experimentation. Let's try this, try that. But I, what I learned was that in the beginning of the magazine, I was doing that whole thing.

I'm gonna do a completely different design for every different article. And it was just too hard. It was so in the end, I've just pulled it back to a simple, very simple style. Um, and, but I'm constantly comparing myself to people in that magazine design area that are specialist like. Gray Murdoch who does white horses in Australia.

Right. And he's brilliant, you know, he's a brilliant graphic designer. I'm not a brilliant graphic designer. I'm just like a lot of things. I'm okay at it. Um, but I'll just keep going, you know, and, and, but it's the, it's the broader picture of the thing that I'm just trying to get out

there. And just to stay on that, just to stay on this, cause there's one more, there's one more topic I want to get to beyond this, but just to stay on this, you then roll.

Kind of directly. And when did you start? I mean, have you always been a photographer?

Have you always been taking pictures? I've been taking pictures since I was at art school. I, in fact, I got my first camera when I was about six. So it was always something that was a noodley interest. Because,

cause I was, let me just set this up real quick.

Cause obviously listeners may not know you. The work you're doing now, one of, one of the things that you're doing right now is you go out to the coast and you take these absolutely ethereal, weird, luminous, like ferocious photographs of, um, you do your, your, your, your, you know, the, the, you'll do great surf photography, but then you'll go off to the corner At the right moment where, because you know that area so well, and you know what's going on with the, with the light and you know what's going on with the weird environmentals and everything like that.

And you get these incredible, bizarro moments of churning ocean, ocean like, it's not meeting the land literally, but you can see the land underneath where it's pushing the water up and it's just in these churning, beautiful, soft, like I said, luminous. things. There's this great darkness and this great lightness in these kind of in between spaces in these photographs.

Just to say, you're doing that now, too. And you've had two, two solo shows? One solo

and one group show. Right.

And you're printing them pretty big.

Yeah. A couple, you know, like six, six feet by, you know, one meter by six feet. Um, you know, what are we calling 40 inches by, Uh, what am I saying? 85 inches, you know, what's, what's, what's, uh, 12, 70, yeah, 80 inches by, um, 40 ish, sort of that sort of, pretty big.

Um, and because when you're doing ocean, you can't do itsy witsy, you know, it needs, and, and the only restriction for me is literally file size. I'm shooting digitally at the moment. Um, but. Uh, like the premise with the photography is trying to, I suppose, show all through my surfing life, we've all done this, is the observational thing while you're paddling and you go, Ooh, I wish I could have shot that.

I wish we'll look at that, you know, the details, the big, the grand details and the small details. And so I think what I'm trying to do is share my view of the, the, the small and the mighty of my ocean. And which is an extension of the Great Ocean Quarterly in a way, in a pictograph, pictorial sense. Um, and I'm doing it, look, there's no, I've, I've, I've, I think in two shows I've broken even, but it's not about the money.

It's about the opportunity to share it. I, I'm even conflicted about that. Because I just, it's just something that I do. You know, and I've always done photos and I've got lots and lots of them and it's just that. The actors, what I'm more intrigued with are also painting. Um, but. Like, and I paint in oils, but I'm scared of it, but I'm okay at it.

And if I did it all the time, and this is the problem in my life is being lack of focus because it's a do that, then I do that. And then I've got three or four paintings on the go at home, but I'm scared of them because it's got to the point where, yeah, it's pretty good, but I don't want to stuff it up.

And, um, and, and you've got to, and then I forget, Oh God, I've got to go and remind myself what the, you know, like it's, it's process driven, um, Um, you know, post Sue's illness and death, um, painting, particularly for a while there became a bit of a rescuer because both Tom and I were grieving, we were both at home and we started, and this is a digression, but we used to do this thing called like tag team painting and we were both, this was particularly in the first sort of eight, 10 months after she died, was, you know, like after I abandoned learning how to play the guitar.

Like, we'd have a canvas, and the rule was, um, you do something, then I do something. Whatever we did, we can't criticise, and when it's, whoever calls it, this is the end, that has to be the end. And we'd go back and forth making marks, and it wasn't pictorial, it was fully, you know, Um, high abstract expressionism, um, as loose as hell, but you know, it was such fun and it was a shared thing and it got us out of our heads and it was a creative thing and you know, we've got them all over the place.

And um, and then, but I'd be doing my own paintings and Tom's got his own paintings and he was going through all of his tortures after his failed operations and stuff like that. So we were just sort of navigating life. So that's

the one thing about your photography that I look at. Now I don't, I mean, I see the paintings every now and then.

You put one up on the Instagram. Mm-Hmm. But, or maybe you put Tommy's up on the Instagram. Yeah, I do

both sometimes.

Yeah. That's with your photography. I look at it every time I see one of your photographer photographs, I'm like, Ugh. It looks so much like it's your perspective. It looks so much like I can't show up and take that photo.

I'm a photographer. Mm-Hmm. . I can't show up and take that

photo. I don't know. But I'd look at your photos

and feel the same mark. Yeah. The spirits, the way the atmospheric is going on, what is it like? It all feels so much like it's. It's you, like

the knowledge and your angle. Well, it's a bit of everything because they're also often, um, you know, compromised exposures and there's so much that goes on in the, in the sort of teasing the image out of the thing.

Like they haven't shifted. It's not like Photoshop changing things at all. It's, it's literally, um, and I won't, I'm not trying to make, um, Ansel Adams, I think it was, said, You don't take a picture, you make a picture. So it's like grading a film or something. It's, it's going, okay, this is our base image. What are the things that you want to emphasize in it?

And if someone asked me, I say, well, I actually, I'm trying to, um, create an image that make, that reminds me of how it felt when I was there. And, and because it's, you know, particularly the one spot where a lot of my stuff is taken is a place down on the deep southwest coast that's got a cliff behind it and the light's quite unique and it's a surf spot that I've loved for almost my whole surfing life and it's a very heavy, like, deep water, right hander, spiky rocks and dangerous and all of that and there's a shipwreck there.

I'm not giving anything away, but it's. But, um, it's full of, um, portent, you know, and, and, and it's so much fun because every surf you have is an adventure there. But where I'm, the spot that I'm shooting is actually the shoreline where it's, it's just heaves and in a big swell, it even heaves a lot more, you know, and people, if they saw the picture and then you were able to drop a person into it and got the scale, you Holy crap, you know, but it's a wonderful, so I'll park myself there behind a rock in a storm and let it all happen and it's late light and it's all mayhem and then I'll take it home and see what comes out and I will look at that and then, you know, and then you tease out the image and, and part of my challenge moving forward in that developmental sense is finding other locations that give me that because it's not like I, if I go to my locals, Bells, Winky, Etc.

The light's falling a certain way, but the problem with all of those, it's basically surf photos. And I don't want to take surf photos, I want to take oceanic, heavy, um, like a little bit. There's a, there's a German romantic Caspar David Friedrich, um, who, like I was always taken by his stuff when I was at art school.

And I'm sure there's a million other people that are in love with that. thing, but the feeling that sort of elemental, like, like Turner or somebody like that, you know, that it sort of, and it's trying to find a way to. Do my take on it. I mean, talking with Ran Ortner the other day, you know, cause I was actually here partly to see if I could show him a work in a gallery here, but then I went, uh, you know, stuff it.

It's just because, you know, a 70 year old bloke walking, Oh, you want to see my pictures? Nah, I'm not going to do that. You know, if someone finds me fine, I don't give a rat's ass otherwise, but, but it's just, I want to keep doing it because in the end the whole point is to do.

I would say this, there, there are surf photos.

I mean, I don't mean that in a way that you're thinking of it, but I mean, I appreciate those photos as surfer. Yeah. Um, in a way I might not

if I was. But that's the secret space, you know, for in the, in the sense that a surfer will look at it and go, I know what's happening there.

Well, I'd see there and be like, Whoa, but, um, that's not the, I'm not, don't mean to say that there isn't another way to look at them, which I'm also looking at them by other brain of course, which is the art brain.

Yeah. And I'm just thinking about the densities and the light and the, and the motion and the stuff that you capture within a frame. That bounds this kind of crazy kind of, it's not violence, it's like ferocity or, or

just light. Yeah, I sort of see it as a kind ferocity though. Yeah, yeah, it's super soft. Um, because I, I, I mean my relationship with the water is fairly benign.

You know, I'm not, it's not a thing that I'm necessarily, like I'm at ease in the sea. And that doesn't say I'm a great surfer, that says that I've just grown up around it. You know, so it's just the thing that, um, I'm not, um, it doesn't, of course we all have scary moments, you know, but the, I think the key to those scary moments is to be able to have a mindset that says I can, I'll work this out now and I'll, I'll, I'll predicate that say my partner in the magazine, Mark, um, is an ocean racer.

You know, he's done two Whitbread round the world yacht races. I mean, he's a, a, a waterman par excellence when it comes to big, scary Southern Ocean yacht racing, which is a whole other thing, because that's, I sort of might call it extended courage. You know, it's, it's, it's, you're throwing yourself into the more of like you're into the pit, basically.

You can't get away and you do that surfing in reasonable size waves, you know, anything over six or eight feet. It becomes a little bit of that and you'll go and that's probably my joy is in that sort of medium range where you can go out and have a little adventure for the day and you might have a moment which you go, Oh, this is a bit sketchy.

So then you go home.

So you, I mean, you're still surfing and you're still surfing at a level that, uh, You know, maybe you might see other people around, you know, down in the West Coast, the surf coast or whatever, you know, who are surfing at your age. I

don't know. No, there's a couple,

but not too, but not too many.

And um, I mean, there's a, that's a whole lifetime of experience and odd ocean wisdom and comfort. I mean, I, when I'm, I'm getting older, I don't, I'm not, uh, you are way older than me. Um, I'm, but I'm super glad. To be, I mean, she had my hip replaced. I have a bad ankle. I'm a mess, but I'm super glad not to have to move so fast.

I'm super grateful that I don't feel that weird sense of tension and competition that I used to have with other people. Yeah. Now, something has shifted in my, after I turned 45 and I'm like, Oh, Competition is no longer this thing that's driving you. Yeah, it

doesn't entirely go away. I mean, you know, back when I was sort of Aths with my son Tom, Little Athletics.

Yeah. And, and, you know, running 400s with them, um, because I could, um, and I wasn't going to sit there like a dad and just not do anything. So it ended up all the dads come running and we'd be all of these 14, 13 year olds. All these 40, 50 year olds and they're all trying to do 400s and 200s and

stuff like that.

Well, and you're certainly different than me because I think by the time I'm 68 or 69, I don't know if I would be paddling out into the waves that you paddle

out in. But I'm lucky that I live there, so it's a fairly normal thing.

Yeah. But you're like out there. So the other day, when was it that there was a, there was a, someone filmed you?

Yeah, that was dropping into a, that was a big wave. So you were filmed, there was a, there was a viral, viral bit of Mick Sowery dropping in on it. It was a Bell's wave. Yeah. That was, what was that, 16

foot? No, it was, we could probably go 10 foot, you know, like, I mean, we're, there's a silly thing, and I won't go into it, but it had a pretty decent, it was about four or five times over head.

Yeah. But it was, Bells. It's, it's, it's, yeah, it was, it was very, it was a funny day. It was a very funny day because it was like smallish. It was about five foot, um, which what we would call five foot, which was probably, you know, twice over head. And so I took my seven foot board, which was just my, like, slightly steppy uppy one for a 69 year old and um paddled out and I didn't even get my hair wet and then the swell really jumped like even the locals, the like long term lifers said they'd never seen it jump so much and it jumped from, you That size to towards the end of the day, there were 12 foot sets like what we would call 12 foot sets, which would probably equate to maybe 15 foot in a lot of people's parlance.

You know, it was got really big five, maybe six times overhead. It got really big. So, but so we're all out the back having a laugh because it was the usual crew sitting out there going, Oh, it's got big. And. What's happened with Bells lately is that there's a lot of bigger boards out there as the surfers get older and there's, you know, more and more like skilled surfers who, um, are getting older and the boards get longer.

So they're sitting further out the back and everyone was sort of arced up with their, you know, nine foot boards and, you know, just lots of foam and catching, well, attempting to, it was a strong swell and that particular wave I just, um, spun and, And got a quite late take off and a bit of a wobble, I had my, um, front foot a little bit on the wrong side of the stringer.

So I had that thing, oh Christ, I've got to, and there was a guy in front of me and I had to jam a turn with, you know, how you want to wiggle your feet into the right spot. So I had to turn and then wiggle and then a couple of sections and it was basically an adventure of a wave. I was just trying to get round things.

And Then I got round the final section and I had face ahead and I managed to do a turn and a bottom turn and a cut back type of thing and then I was getting by now I've probably ridden 250 300 meters and getting towards the end of Towards the critical part of the ride at Bells, which is towards the button the business end of towards Winky Pop Didn't want to be there Because it gets all ugly and very sort of compressed and Bad and there's a current, you can end up on rocks.

So I got out and so I paddled back out and um, and nobody had seen the wave and I hadn't had a hoot. I think I got a hoot off one of the guys that I passed on the way down the end. Um, and, but I said, I think that was pretty big. And that was the end of it. And they were whatever, you know, and, and, um, I got a couple of other waves and then went in and then.

Um, one of the guys on the beach said, was that you? And he made some sort of glowing sort of reference to what a good ride it was. But I didn't again thought, well, I was, you know, it was nice that you saw it because I thought nobody had seen it. And then a few days later, it turned up in my inbox from Mike.

Uh, Peter Baker, um, the shooter who'd randomly just turned it around. He'd been shooting proper pro surfers out at Winky Pop had got this wave of me at Bells. So, and, and it's a little bit weird because, you know, it's full of flaws, but it's, you know, for me, it was like, Oh, right. That's nice. You know? And, and.

Again, because of my age, people have started to, or had, you know, this wedding the other day because Ryan had been sharing it with everyone before I turned up and that's all that anyone wanted to talk about and I'm going, for fuck's sake, I'm not a big wave surfer, I just happened to get a big wave, you know.

But you were a big wave surfer. Well, I like surfing reasonably sized waves, but, you know, uh, it's fun, but,

but. I told Tyler, so I was talking to Tyler before this and, um, I was like, I should get a bottle of Campari because Mick is the most humble, he's the classic Australian humble guy who won't talk about things too much.

Um, kind of holds it close to your chest. I'm like, I should get some Campari and, and really have, you know, let

loose a little bit. No, cause I'm like, it's like, I've always liked larger surf, probably because there's more space for you to hide your mistakes and, and you know, it's just, and I've never, it's just not a space that I've been particularly worried by.

I like. The, the bigger, um, like the big amount of water and the faces and stuff. It's just easier and, and I've got good lungs and I've never smoked in my life. And I've never, you know, like, it's just a happy place for me. I'm not, and it's just, you know, then there's big, big, you know, and done a little bit of that, but.

And it's attractive, but it's just that, that, that I've just been sitting in this space of, you know, in that sort of up to about 15 feet range, you know, um, maybe a little bigger when the opportunity arises. But then the last time, you know, when I go down to, you know, the big, big places down our coast. Um, which will remain nameless.

Um, you know, I've had some success and some absolute disasters, so, but it's all, all in the name of just experience and, and being out and amongst it. And it's good. How does your body feel now? It's fine. You know, the only thing that, um, it's fine except that I've got, um, what would you call it? Desk neck, so being, having a nice big high arch back when you're paddling is harder as you get older.

Um, but from a point of view of the other injuries apart from that, not much. I've got good knees and good flexibility and, um, you know, still relatively strong. But that's just because of a lifetime of... consistency as opposed to training, you know, like I'm always moving and, and mostly, and haven't been ill.

And, but, you know, having lost Sue and seeing what can happen, I'm on that edge of anything could happen at any point. So enjoy it while you can. And And, and do while you can, so subsequently that's kind of why I'm just constantly doing stuff. And I do too much staring at my phone and too much of procrastinating and too much of, um, worrying about whether I should, you know, like it's just, it's time and fitting it all in because I've got to still work, you know, so I'm doing work.

with an environmental organisation, um, writing with them and I work, um, for an ad agency. Still, when they need me, and, you know, any projects that throw at me, I'll, I'll do them because I just still have to keep money coming in. Um, and, you know, like Great Ocean Quarterly again, because we... Wanted to do another edition, which we've just done on the Great Southern Reef.

So it was an environmental, um, project to throw light on this, um, ecosystem at the bottom of Australia. And that was, the joy of doing that was, um, this, um, again, the whole discovery thing. But it, um, it sort of reawakened a fire in me to try and make the magazine live again, really. Because it's always, um, Such a, an enlightening thing and you want to go, well, if it really could get its legs up and running, a whole world, there's a whole world of people out there that enjoy it.

And the more opportunity I get, we get to, to grow, it would, um, you know, I'd love it for it to have a life beyond me and Mark and Jock. That's what I'd really like, because it'd mean that we'd started something that had some sort of significance for the world. Because it's really, it's got that potential, because, you know, we just need windows to the things that we're potentially going to lose.

And people just don't realise the beauty that's out there.

Yeah, it's, it's um, I'm working with a reef restoration foundation right now, and it's almost, um, how scientists who work in that world. keep themselves from being too depressed all of the time. Is, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot that goes on in that world where there's a lot of therapy that has to happen for those scientists who are working in that world.

Um, what do they call it? Um, uh, when you're able to keep going. Um, anyways, there's a word they use for it. Um. But they have to take, there's a lot of work that goes into that. So you get into that world and you start looking at what's going on in the reefs in particular. And how the bleaching is going and how quickly it happens and how total it is.

Um, the depression rates are

incredible. Well, yeah, I mean, I've, I've, um, Oh, resilience, that was the word. Yeah, yeah, well, you need, I suppose resilience is probably part of what makes, you know, Mental health is, good mental health is resilient and, and not abandoning it. And I'm probably from that point of view, you know, I've had.

Um, pretty decent resilience, um, through the period and it's not without help, you know, like, you know, I've had a grief counsellor when, uh, and that bounces up when Sue died, but that bounces off, um, to my sons because, you know, if they see me doing okay, it makes it easier for them, um, to a point, um, but, um, it's.

But from a point of view of looking at the world, it's, we're in a state of near catastrophe, but it's not unrescuable, but part of the thing that is making it hard is, is ignorance and apathy. And, um, you know, I don't have, I'm not a scientist, but to a point that I'm a communicator. Or can be part of a group that's communicating or the facilitator of communication.

I can say yes, I can do that. So that's why doing Great Ocean Quarterly was great, was a great thing to do. And it's great fun to do and that's sort of a nice combination anyway. But at the end of the day, um, It's limited because it's only being seen by, you know, a few thousand people when if it was thousands of people, you know, like obviously the science communicators all around the world that are doing this and it's still falling on deaf ears.

And I don't know what the, um, until you can get past the almost, well, the, the way that certain media bias themselves towards an anti, um, anti environmental stance because it's economically inconvenient when the long term view is that It's going to be vastly more economically inconvenient wherever it's turning into a major clusterfuck.

Um, but it's short sighted and people are more interested in the bottom line and it'll affect our shareholder prices and all of that, or outcomes. Um, but you know, it's, you just got to keep persisting. It's like life. You just got to keep persisting.

Um, I think the one, I mean, the things that I, I mean, I don't know what to capture in an hour with you, but one of the things that I always want to talk about is, um, we already talked about your longevity and sort of like some of these cycles that you've gone through in the art and the, um, sort of this weird trajectory you've had with art and this, It's a long relationship you have with surfing, um, but a couple years ago you lost your wife.

Five years ago. Five years ago. Okay. You lost your wife, uh, to cancer. Yep. And, um, and that's a whole story in and of itself, but, um, it's yet another sort of layer on who you are and the experience you've had. Um. Obviously, that's not an easy thing to deal with, but how, how do you, like, what, what, what was that like?

What was it?

Uh, look, um, well, background, um, Sue was a very lively, um, healthy woman, you know, like vibrant and funny and, um, you know, probably sort of. a little bit mad in a really good way. She was hilarious. Yeah, funniest, one of the funniest people you'll ever meet. And um, and our, our 30, well we met in um, 30 odd, 33 years of marriage.

Um, it was sort of this chaotic, dodging bullets, laughing, um, sort of. maelstrom of emotion, um, but we laughed all the time, you know, Sue wasn't easy, but at the same time, that's probably as much as why I loved her, you know, she was nuts, but she was my nuts. Um, but, um, and, but we were having our financial problems.

And, but as I'd say to her, um, but darling, we've got our health and look where we live. And that particular conversation or a variant on that happened about a month before. She started to get these pains in under her ribs and which we thought initially was a maybe a cracked rib from leaning over a rail to get some dust which she was often trying to do because she was a clean freak and it turned out you know after six weeks of taping ribs and escalating pain and running out of you know codeine based painkillers to It just wasn't working and I just said by morning we've got to go to emergency and that was an escalating day that was ended with a doctor coming in and saying, um, crying and saying there's nothing we can do, it's end stage, um, that was the words.

And Sue blinked and I said, shit Sue, and we just sort of gathered ourselves and left about half an hour later and. And drove home, trying to figure it out, um, and then it was a five, five months and three weeks from that day to, uh, going. And so, but it was a pretty, in a weird way, it was a really good time because, um, you know, like a rekindled romance almost, you know, like we just realized what we were about to lose.

And Sue was, you know, you met her. The vibrance that she had was pretty, um, special and she wouldn't let it all get to her at all. It got to her, you know, there were moments for sure, absolutely couldn't not. Um, cause as she said, her future shrunk to a pin brick and that's a pretty hard thing to hear too.

And, but we, and you know, obviously we were navigating it with the boys and, and losing their mum in their early twenties. Which was pretty hardcore. And of anyone losing their mum. But when you've sort of thought you'd have her with you for at least another 25 years. It's shit ass. So, um, So, she passed and that following year was pretty hard.

Or very, you know, it was just ridiculously hard. Because she just lost. And, um, But, You know, thanks to the Australian health system, I was offered grief counselling, which helped a lot and, um, probably, um, you know, the ocean helped a lot, being able to sit out there and sort of work it out and walking a lot and thinking a lot and taking a lot of photos and writing and getting it off my chest and, and realising that grief was, um, losing somebody didn't mean you lost them.

Um, you lost their physical selves, but that internal connection remains, but it changes. Um, dealing with being alone. Um, that's a thing because you, you, all of those, you know, couples have shorthands and that shorthand's gone, but you still wish it was there. And, um, you sort of talk it to yourself. So, yeah, so about 18 months later, I met somebody, um, which was quite, um, um, expected and, and that lady, I'm not going to go names because she's a private person, but I love her to bits and she's, um, doesn't replace Sue, Sue, she's her own.

person and it's our relationship. But, and, um, and that's the glorious thing about loving somebody is you love them for themselves, not for anything else about that. And love is one of those things that, um, ambushes you. It's a hijacking and you don't expect it and it happens. And I was lucky enough for it to happen again.

And, um, however long it lasts, I'm damn lucky I'm already there, you know, but. But it doesn't mean I've abrogated, um, an emotional space that Sue occupies. I've created a new one for, for Penny. And look, it's, it's, it's weird and strange and you do it and, um, we navigate it because we live in different cities, but that's life, um, and, and you don't let it go because it's inconvenient.

You make it work. And if it's, if like, it's been three years now, and um, if it stopped tomorrow, I would have said that, well, you know, that was, I was bloody lucky, you know, and, but you just, it's that whole thing about persisting, and relationships are the same, you know, Sue and I had, what would, you call it a, I'd call it Um, calm with storms, you know, but they were always storms that were, uh, you know, you find a way to navigate them.

And that's the whole point of getting, if you, if you marry or you commit to somebody, you commit, you go, okay, it's gone to shit, but I'm going to make it work. And you can, um, and, um, so, so here we are. And you know, like, there's not a, a day that Sue's loss doesn't bite. Of course, and I, I think the thing that probably gets me more than anything is just the abject unfairness of it, because it's just not fair, but that's the way it is.

And also it's focused in me, uh, an awareness of my own mortality and being a man of a certain age, all sorts of bloke things happen and you're always scared it's going to happen to you. Um, but it hasn't yet, but it might, um, so. And, you know, it's sort of men are notorious for dying five years earlier than women.

So it shocked the life out of me that I was the one that was left behind. And then you have survivor guilt to a degree. We do like undeniably you do. But the responsibility you have is to make the most. You try to make the most of what's left. I, you know, you. It's why I hate my iPhone, because I keep looking at it.

Oh, there's another 10. Wordle's stolen another 10 minutes of my life.

Um, what is the, um, what's the nature of grief counseling? What, what is that like for you? Well

it's basically, um, I, I was, went in there fairly, um, Uh, open minded, I, you know, it was offered to me for nothing, so I thought, well, there's nothing, no harm in giving it a try, and really it's just having a voice, but, um, the, the lady, um, that, um, was my, Kim, who was my grief counsellor, was very good at it, and she was able to just, Be a sounding board and tease things out and maybe normalize the things that you're feeling.

Um, but at the same time, I was probably, you know, you know, well enough knowing me that I'm hard to shut up once I get going. And, and so I'd just blabber and she'd put an, you know, I won't say put the needle in it, but she'd say something and I'd lose it. And it's one of the things that happens when. Um, you know, you're in that point in your life is it'll hit you in a rush at the back of your head and suddenly the, the waterworks go and there's nothing you can do about it.

You just sort of get this surge. And when Sue died, you know, like I'd be just driving down, just thinking about it and then banging it hit and banging it hit and banging it hit and it happened several times a day in the beginning. And that's the slowly. Lessons and suddenly there was a point about eight or ten months in where it stopped mostly and but you know when the other day when I was at the wedding for Ran something was said in the ceremony that it hit me in the back of the head again because it was about kindness and and loyalty and stuff like that and that sort of stuff that you wake up and you go well you know that was the sort of drum I was trying to beat through the time that we were married and and That's just that sort of way of, you know, trying to be a good human.

But, um, you know, if there's anything that I think is the key to a good marriage, it's that kind of thing, that kind of thinking, um, because you've got to have a, like a generosity to your partner and acceptance and those sorts of things. So anyway, that, um, all of those things, it helped him. And I came out the other side feeling much more, um, like, I wouldn't call it at peace but, you know, able to understand.

Because in the end, it's not about Sue anymore, it's about the feelings that it's eliciting in you and you're trying to just get on with being able to function. You know, because you're trying to go to work and, um, and be outside yourself. And then it, and that sort of helped and then, you know, I did. Put a book out.

I wrote a book about it, um, that I self-published that was on reflection a little bit too introspective , but you know, people liked it and, and it was of its time. Um, you know, and it helped me and it helped other people that were in the process of losing people. I got that sort of feedback because it helped them normalize the feelings that they were feeling.

Because it's, it's quite a shocking experience when it happens, um, you know, even like I, in a weird way, Sue having a five month illness that was terminal was better than having a two or three year one, um, you know, um, it was, uh, it was short. But I would say without any exaggeration, in some way sweet, because there was so much good that happened in the period.

And we're not religious, we weren't thinking, you know, you're going off with the angels or any of that stuff. It was more like a contentedness with, with an acceptance of the process and that, you know, yes, it's. Um, I feel like I've lived a good life and I can leave it knowing that the boys are safe or that I'll be safe.

Personally, you know, like Sue thinking towards me. We talked a lot about, um, uh, you know, even what it's like to die. Um, but also, um, just feeling... free to go without doing that thing about tell her it's alright to die, you know, that, which I felt quite annoyed at because it was said a couple of times, because no, it wasn't alright.

Um, but you know, it had to happen. I mean, the whole process is just a thing, you know, watching somebody die, the whole thing, you know, it's, but all of that, it was just, it is what it was, you know. We, we, but you know, I, I, you know, slept by Sue the whole time. And, you know, I was lucky enough that some friends helped us, um, with a GoFundMe, which was unasked for, but it, the, um, it freed up me having to leave her to, to work.

Um, so for about three months there, I was able to just be with her. You know, which is, it was, it was a blessing, you know, I can't imagine what it'd be like if I was having to go off and clock in eight hours a day, you know, like, um, but we didn't have to. And then, you know, afterwards it was, as I said, the grief counseling and, and, you know, just sort of moving through life.

Do you remember, do you recall what, like when you, you said it a couple of times, normalizing Yeah. Yeah. The feelings that you're having. Mm. Do you remember what those or those moments like was it normalizing the fact that you would break down and cry? Oh no, I knew I was

gonna do that cuz I'm a blubber mouth.

You know, I was gonna do that. I cry the dog forking across the road. But um um no, I I I don't have any sort of um qualms about crying ever. Um but um the the that loss feeling and that surge that you get when you just you just It just sideswipes you. It happens to everybody that has a loss of that magnitude.

Um, I can't imagine what it would be like, you know, if it was one of the boys. But, um, It's, it's a thing that, I mean, there's that whole maleness thing. Oh, you shouldn't cry a bit, which never affected me because I'm, as Joe calls me, the most feminine bloke he knows. All I need is a bloody handbag and a tutu and I'm off.

Good. It's good

to be on that side of things.

Um, so it's, it's, I'm not worried about that emotional exposure, but, um, but, but. But just the intensity of it for anyone that's, that loses them, just understand that it will, it will lessen, it will become easier and there is life after it and you can be happy you're allowed to be.

You know, you have to have that permission to be, I think, because I, I watched my, for instance, my grandmother, you know, 50 years ago when she lost her husband, um, my grandfather and she, it was just this long, long, long. Um, period of mourning that was beyond the pale, but that was the way it was back then.

You know, it's almost not quite the, the Sicilian black dress thing, but it wasn't far away from it. You know, it's just, look, it's, it's, we navigated it, we, we, you continue to navigate it. It's not ever gone. Um, it still feels unfair. Um, and you know, it reminds me every day cause who left notes about close the window and make sure that's wiped and.

And I find chocolates under my underpants every so often because I haven't looked down that far. Because she's hidden them all around the house. You've got a lot of underpants. Um, no, no, I only just use one or two pairs.

So yeah, so that's kind of it, really.

Um, so what haven't I asked you? So, so what didn't we talk about,

Nick? What didn't we talk about? We've talked about G. O. Q, we've talked about the films, um, Uh, you know, maybe what's it like living where I live? You know, that whole 70 year old thing, um, is probably worth addressing in that, like, I live in Janjuk, which is between Bells Beach and Torquay.

I think you're supposed to call it

Janjuk. Just, I'm just gonna say

that. It's Janjuk. And, um... We've lived there since 2012. Um, we moved down there as economic migrants after all the disasters that I had, but it's worked out really well and we were, I think the tragedy of it was that we were really coming to love it when Sue got ill.

Um, because there had been some, uh, you know, Londoner, suddenly down there, but... She was working.

Part time up, up in

Melbourne. She had been managing fashion shops up there. You know, she, she, there was about four or five that she'd skipped between. And, um, and gave that away to come and work down our way. And had set up a little business that was going quite fine.

And, and then all of the, the crap happened. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's an interesting town. Um, it's obviously a hub of Australian surfing. Um, Um, there's an immense amount of really, really sort of skilled surfers and I think for me, the great joy was how much, um, emotional support those men and women gave to me at the time.

Um, you know, and I was, I'd been surfing there since about 1971 or two as a, in and out guy. And I got to know. You know, sort of, you know, being a city surfer through those 45 odd years was, um, you're a local everywhere. You know surfers on all the coasts and, and I'd made friendships and those friendships just, um, cemented themselves and blossomed and, And more relationships came and I, for a time there, I was working with Morris Cole, Morris Cole's manager.

I'd call it, as he used to call it, two broken old blokes trying to heal themselves, because this was definitely through the time post suit. So I was working with MC with that. And, um, and he still remains a very close friend of mine. Um, I've distanced myself from the business, thankfully, and passed it over to a mate of mine who's now being driven mad the same way I was.

But, you know, what the, probably the great part of that was that it got me access to some really good surfboards over the time. And the other thing that came out of that was, um, just watching a few young shapers over that period come through too. So particularly, um, uh, two young guys, uh, Sharma Buttonshaw and Darcy Day.

who both actually they work together those guys and very talented surfers and shapers and it's been a joy watching those guys sort of grow into their surfing careers and oddly enough with Darcy. In particular, he'd, um, been giving, he was sort of losing interest in surfing as about a 16 year old and he was looking at a career as a professional downhill, um, mountain biker.

And I loaned him, um, my Derek High and Finless that Derek, free friction board that Derek had made for me that I rode with, you know, moderate success. But, um, you know, I knew there were many doing it far better than I. Um, and he fell in love with that and then started carving. Boards out, like even gave him an old Morris of mine to play with.

And it, it what awoken, uh, Darcy was a, uh, a pretty analytical design mind and that got him into, and both Sharma and Darcy did some minor apprenticeships with Morris and moved on from there. And, and, um, they've got, um, really good, strong followings of their own now

because when I was there, Darcy was at.

Was it, uh,

Morris place? That's right. And they're, but they're making, both making beautiful boards. And, you know, another, um, young shaper called Marcus Hyatt, who does, um, his boards. And his boards are, um, exceptional as well. So it's just, um, really good watching young talent. Because, you know, Torquay had been a place with this.

group of well set in shapers that have been there for a long time. And, and, and they're all good. And, but just to see a new generation pop up, and there's a middle ground, you know, Corey Graham and Dicko and, and, um, Babel and all of these different brands that are coming through and, and, and, um, JoyMill surfboards, which is really more, uh.

A, um, a glassing shop, bit like Moonlight. And so Tookie sort of had a real, um, renaissance. And so I, it's all happened since I've been there and watched them all and, and just seeing the energy in the place. And so from a surfing, surfing point of view, it's just really lively and it really blossomed through COVID when there was that big, um, everyone was buying surfboards.

Um. And the only thing that's not good is the crowds, it's just going through the roof, but that's happened everywhere as we've got that influx of, of adult learners. Um, so you're navigating a change in surf culture, people not understanding the rules of the road and dodging people and getting older, like most wave counts dropping like a stone.

Because, like I had this thing that if I, for up until I grew the beard, I'd be shaved, you know. I'd have a shave and then it would grow back and I'd have a shave. And if I'd had a shave, I've got more waves than when it would grow back. 'cause it'd grow back gray. And they'd team me. Old guy, not old guy, old guy, not old guy.

And now it's always old guy. And you know how a, you put a hood on and your face turns into something, assem resembling a prune with a beard on it. And it's like, uh, you know, so you just sort of get more patient. What, uh,

what are you, what are you writing right now?

Um, I've got a few boards. I've got the board that I rode that big wave was, was a seven foot board that I sort of a self designed thing that I, um, a very neutral seven footer that was V all the way that I just wanted to try something that was absolutely without personality, um, to try and just see just how it, just a general, but I knew that it'd work in a range of wave sizes.

And, um, be a good paddler. It's a poxy V all the way with a slight double concave. And the, um, Boots Garrard at, um, who runs Joy Mill kindly just said, let's try it. And he ended up doing one for himself and he loved it. So we had two and he does it as a variant on it. It's a model now, but it worked for me.

Um, I've got a lot of Morris Cole sports because we're lifelong friends and I've been helping him. So I've got a. fish of his that I love, that has got a super deep, um, fish tail that's an inverted, it's not the normal convex, it's a concave, like you can imagine, I can't, it's almost impossible to describe, but it's everything opposite of fish is, and it's, if you took it nose to tips, it's six feet, but if you took it from, um, the apex of the fish, it's probably about five nine, it's a really, really deep.

So, but it goes, it goes fantastic. And then I've got, um, a six, eight step up of his, I've got a eight, three gun. I broke a nine, six gun, um, last Christmas. In Big Surf down south. Um, which I've got another one on order. Um, so, which is slightly scaring me because it means I'm going to have to go down there and surf it, but Big Bells would be useful.

Um, I've got, um, I just bought, we just had the World Longboard titles down our way, and I, Um, through Morris ended up hosting Steve Sawyer, who was the world champion in 2018. So he stayed with me. So we got to meet Steve and watch a world class longboarder and ended up, um, he was unloading one of his boards cause he was flying over here and they were charging him a bomb.

So I ended up buying a board off him. So I've got a really nice nine six log of his and, um, what else have I got? Um, I've got like about 10, 12 boards lying around in there. Do you have a board that you

take out more than any other?

Uh, yeah, probably, uh, like the fish I take out a lot. Um, I've got a, a 5'10 hipster T of Morris's.

That's like a little tiny fish that I really like in small surf. Um, I've got, um, What else have I got? Um, I've got a 6'5 um, another one of Morris's that I write a hell of a lot to, like a sort of a medium sort of... Actually, no, I've got a Shama Buttonshaw twin that's 6'5 that is probably one of my favourite boards I've ever had.

That I've been writing. And it's like, kind of, for me it's now a short board. I, I did a little run, uh, of writing some experimentals. Like, I tried to, over the past six months, I tried to... A Lasers app, Shane Horan Lasers app with a star fin on it that was 5'10 Um, a, a, um, side cut Mick Mackie, uh, square tailed, um, thruster 6'2 Um, you know, like all these boards, um, Adam Robinson, who's really a wonderful surfer with a wonderful board collection.

He said, try these. And so I was trying all these boards, but I realized that a performance board around six foot was just starting to get... Not hard to ride, but hard to get waves on when you're dealing with everybody else in the water because I'm six, I'm 69. So I could ride them, but my wave count was dropping like a rock.

I just need that little bit more paddle. So, so, you know, like the, the fish is flat rockered and, and got a bit of meat so I can ride those sort of boards, you know, sub six foot, no problem. But if it's a, if it's a pro level. Thruster, forget it. It's just, not because I can't actually surf them, it's just because I just don't have the same energy as a 20 year old whizzing around.

My friend,

my friend, a friend of mine, Jack, um, tells me that he, um, he's in Santa Cruz, so he surfs, surfs a fair amount. He's like, he says, um, I go out and get 10 waves, and I never get 11, and

I never get 9. Yeah, well, I'm more like 5. You know, it's more like if I go out and I get, get 5, I'm happy, even if I get 3.

But, you know, with Bells and Winky and the waves around, 3 of those is as good as, you know, 5 or 6 somewhere else. And I tend to just, because I've driven for surf for so long. I just go there, or I'll go down the coast, you know, like proper down the coast. Um, lately I've started to drive a bit more just because the crowds are driving me bonkers.

But, just, look, it's, it's just water time. And, and also picking your time. You can just turn up and you go, there's no way out, and actually the swell's just kicked. Um, so most of the local guys around my way will check it three or four times a day. It's a thing. And you just have a look and go, nothing or woo.

And the boards are in the back and you might just jump in for a bit. Um, and, and you know, if true, if you really wanted to just get in the water all the time, there's just so many opportunities down there. It's just a case of like, I do have a rule. If I have work, I don't surf. If so, I have to get what I.

So I surf throughout the year often in shit because I've passed up on the offshore because it's in the morning and I'll go out in the afternoon. But that's just my rule, you know, I just feel guilty. And being raised as a child, Catholic, Catholic guilt doesn't go away even when it comes to surfing.

And that's what the Maxens don't talk about.

Well, I don't know, I think the boys might be coming home soon. Yeah, I think we're there. I think we're there. Tyler, I hope we did you proud. Hope you have a good time editing this. Yeah, good luck. Good luck.