In Deep with Matt George

Matt George - In Deep

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[00:00:00] Tyler: If you live with the myths in your mind, you'll find yourself always in mythological situations. They cover everything that can happen to you and that enables you to interpret the myth in relation to life as well as life. In relation to myth, Joseph Campbell, our guest is someone who helped to create and build the myths that make up surf history as a grommet while sitting on the toilet, avoiding homework.

[00:00:28] I found myself constantly gripped to every word our guest wrote. For me, surfing became more than a sport. It became a world unto itself, a religion, a quest in Odyssey, fables, tall tales and more. It was with the help of the writing from our guest, Matt George, that helped build this world and a lifelong commitment to surfing.

[00:00:54] For me, his profile pieces elevated the standard surf magazine [00:01:00] profile. He was not afraid to be critical. His deep dives got him to know his subjects, spending days attached to their hips. He may not have always wrote what the surfers wanted, but he was fair, and he gave us the readers an honest view into who these surfers were as people. His commitment to surfing is something to be admired in a world where there is so much cynicism.

[00:01:27] His earnestness and blind faith in surfing as something more than just a sport or a hobby is refreshing and inspiring. Matt has just released a compilation of his writings in the book titled In Deep, published by DeAngelo Publications. Matt has touted this book as an antidote to the synthetic image of surfing that is being promoted today.

[00:01:53] It's an incredible read that really captures the times they were written in, but I would also dare [00:02:00] say they could be something of an inspiration for younger surfers to go and explore the world around them. Matt, welcome to the show.

[00:02:09] Matt: Well, thank you so much. I'm really proud to be here. Um, thank, thank you so very much for that introduction as well.

[00:02:15] I, I, I, it we're obviously kindred spirits in this.

[00:02:21] Tyler: I I got a sense, you know, like I've been, you know, you've, you've done the, uh, you know, the David Lee Scales interview, which, which was wonderful and really perfect for a lot of core surfers. And then he did, uh, Matt Barr with, uh, looking Sideways, which is a bit more highbrow with me.

[00:02:38] We're just gonna get down and dirty and fantastic. Just totally nerd out on everything. Fantastic. I, do you think, like you mentioned chat, G p T and, and you mentioned it with, with Matt Barr . Do you think there's a way to use it to help. Uh, in terms of writing to help [00:03:00] improve writing or to make it, uh, you know, better. Like, that's what I know in terms of news. Like they're talking about that for New York Times, like you can do more with less, basically.

[00:03:14] Matt: Um, I think whoever invented it should be, uh, uh, arrested and shot. I, I think it's, I just think it's just goofy as hell and it, it's, it's a thief. Yeah. And it robs, it robs people of curiosity and imagination to seek something that you want to know. Mm-hmm. Is one of the great joys on earth when you find it.

[00:03:39] Now, look, I get it. I'm, I'm say I'm in law school or something and I, oh my God, I have to do some crazy essay on the, you know, some court case with, with Clarence Darrow. I'm like, oh my God, do I have to do this? And I could push a button and, and, and have it done Still. It's synthetic. Yeah. And the one thing that has [00:04:00] never changed since the hieroglyphics is a human being putting their thoughts to paper, putting their thoughts down, putting their thoughts into a readable form.

[00:04:12] This is a very, very human act. It is not a robotic act. And so I believe that, as I've said before, if, if you don't look into surfing, It's not gonna look into you, it's not gonna be a lifetime adventure if you're, if you're skimming over it with AI and chat G T P stuff, you know, like, you know, Hey Siri, tell me all about Kelly Slater.

[00:04:35] You know? Um, and you just get this sort of little encyclopedic overview. That's, that's a very wooden and, and, uh, uncreative. It's just informational as if we don't get enough information with, you know, with with, with these things that we carry around in our hands, these hand phones. So, no, I, I don't think it's gonna improve anything.

[00:04:55] I think it's gonna remove desire, it's gonna remove romance. [00:05:00] It, it, it's going to remove humanity. I, I think it's an awful thing. Do you,

[00:05:07] Tyler: where do you think then the landscape is for surf media in the future? Like, can, can magazines exist? Where can, where can we go to get, you know, really like to get writing like that you wrote where there were, you could get these small details about a person, whether it's a hand movement or, uh, the way they, they drink their coffee, whatever, but it, it tells.

[00:05:40] It's something more about that person. It tells more about that person than just the overview of the facts. You know, it tells what type of person they are, you know, by the way, they, they move, you know, like mm-hmm. Where can that exist? Is there, is there a future for that?

[00:05:56] Matt: Well, that's an interesting question and I, [00:06:00] I remember I once wrote about how Tom Curran opens everything with his teeth.

[00:06:05] Anything that he has Yep. That he needs to open. I was reading that, whether it's a candy bar or, you know, some, some new gift or even in a box, like if he gets a box of chocolates or something, he'll, you know, he'll, he, he opens it with his mouth. You know,

[00:06:20] Tyler: Marie was not a fan.

[00:06:22] Matt: Yeah. Well that tells you so much about his personality, you know, that the, the incredible person that Tommy is.

[00:06:27] But, um, right now, I, I believe, I, I truly believe that there is gonna be a backlash to all this shallowness and skimming over of things. Now, the visual stories that we get online, you know, the endless clips. Okay. They're always gonna be around the same way that surf movies have always been around. Yeah.

[00:06:50] But I, I do believe that there's gonna be a backlash and people are gonna be hungrier. To express and, [00:07:00] and, and read the written word about this sport that is so overwhelming if you're doing it right, something, you know, the, the surf that really, I mean the surfing life that really hooks you and really gives you this purpose.

[00:07:16] I really believe in the future that there will be, um, a resurgence in print media. I, I really do.

[00:07:25] I

[00:07:25] Tyler: hope so. I mean it, I think the thing that kind of sometimes bums me out about surfing today is like you said before, the goofiness, you know, and there are lots of people out there who even just start surfing or, uh, just even look at like the surf training online.

[00:07:48] There are all these people who I'm like, do you even surf? And you see this, like, they're trying to tell you how to surf and, you know, and they're doing it on a skateboard, but you never see clips of them surfing and all these [00:08:00] things where I feel like there's this weird, the money particularly and the monetization of surfing definitely makes it weird, you know?

[00:08:10] And it, and it op and, and it's interesting, like I've had this theory, and I've talked about it a lot in, in past episodes where I talk about the great democratization of surfing, you know, for. 40, 50 years surfing was controlled by a small group of people. Ba basically it was a gate, it was gate kept, uh, you know, you had the magazines, you had the companies, and they basically told all of us what was cool and what was great about surfing.

[00:08:37] And very true. Yes. And part of that was great. Part of that was nice because there was, uh, I guess like there was, I don't wanna say like a monoculture, but we all could agree on, on certain things, right? Like, you know, you, you felt like you were part of that culture. And then the early two thousands and, and, and the 2010s, it's been, [00:09:00] you know, the affordability of cameras and recording equipment and editing and all these things that you don't have to, don't have to have a lot of experience to do anymore.

[00:09:10] Um mm-hmm. You know, has, on one hand it's been phenomenal because you've got greater representation, you've got more people surfing that are from varied backgrounds. You're getting more stories out there of people from different places. Um, yes. Which is phenomenal. But it's also, you're getting a lot of these people who are surfing and trying to monetize it and doing it in just such a weird way without knowing the history, without knowing the culture, without knowing what came before.

[00:09:41] Yes. And I always find that a little awkward and weird when I see it

[00:09:45] Matt: out there. Well, yeah, I mean, the, uh, the perfect example is the, uh, leadership of the W S L. Yeah. You know, um, um, and, and you, you, you have to remember that, you know, I, I've been a card carrying [00:10:00] member of the I p s, the, uh, the a s P, the W Ss l.

[00:10:05] Mm-hmm. You know, I've been through the, that whole evolution of, of the gatekeepers of competition. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, you, you can't get two surfers to agree on the time of day, you know? And so when it was surfer led, there was a lot of chaos, you know? Yeah. And then when the corporate, you know, Disney World, people came in with W S L, it swung the, the, the needle swung in, in such a, the opposite direction.

[00:10:31] And so right now we find ourselves with everybody up in arms because we need a surfer that's gonna run the W s l, the gatekeeper of, of, of our professional surfing career. You know, we need, we need a hardcore surfer there. We don't need someone who puts their fins in backwards, you know, and so it's, it's.

[00:10:50] I, I think that this is, again, one of those backlashes where I'm talking about where Surfing heals itself. And so the needle, you know, swings [00:11:00] back and forth, but it always finds itself in the center when it comes to the sincerity of surfing. I mean, let's not forget that, you know, surfer Magazine was known as the Bible of our sport, and it was, you know, it, it was suggesting surfing that has an overwhelming feeling as much as a belief in religion.

[00:11:18] You know, that we could call this magazine a Bible and nobody questioned that and, and nobody was, uh, offended by it in any way. Yeah, it was the Bible of the sport, you know? Um, so to to, to make my point, um, I just believe that surfing, uh, no matter how much we've made the mistake, uh, professionally of trying to worship the mainstream, like surfing has to become mainstream.

[00:11:46] As much as we've made that mistake, we've gotta realize that we are the Knights of Templar. You know, we are the crusaders and we don't need anyone to believe in surfing other than us. We don't [00:12:00] need anybody from the outside. You know, we don't need people in Ohio. You know, understanding and believing in surfing and, and, and worshiping an athlete like, uh, Canoa ii, we don't need it.

[00:12:12] We don't need you. You know, we have our own world, our own or fringe dwellers. So I think that's been a big mistake. Um, trying to chase down the mainstream audience and trying to make it a mainstream sport. I think that's a, a big error. I mean, let's face it, you know, people that do curling Yeah. Have never tried to sell it to the mainstream.

[00:12:38] You know? Why are we,

[00:12:40] Tyler: well, it's interesting 'cause it, we're our own worst enemies, though. The surfers themselves we're the ones who do sell out. We're the ones who do surf lessons to all these people. We're the ones who are trying to make a living off surfing by appealing to [00:13:00] those people that don't surf.

[00:13:02] Right? Like mm-hmm. I, I, I often find like we're the, we're the ones who cause, who cause our own grief in that sense. We complain about crowds, but we're the reasons for it. You know, we're, many of us have, have contributed in some ways to, uh, trying to convert a lot of people to being surfers. And, and there's nothing wrong like, God, I don't blame anyone who wants to learn to surf because it's the greatest thing ever.

[00:13:29] But it is interesting how we, we all. Kind of do it to ourselves.

[00:13:36] Matt: Well, it's the curse of the great white hunter, you know, the great white hunter in Africa that was, you know, where, where hunting was just so glorious and they could blast away at elephants and all these horrible things that they did. But in order to maintain that adventurous lifestyle of being a hunter, they had to bring in, uh, neophytes in order to be a guide.

[00:13:56] Yeah. And, and so now they were, they were putting other people in [00:14:00] front of these elephants to shoot. Now I'm certainly not glorifying, you know, hunting, but I, I wanted to say that in relation to the ment white charter business. Right. You know, where the discovered these incredible waves and the only way you could still viably surf these waves is to bring other people there.

[00:14:20] And so you, you and, and show them, you know, the, the, the great elephants and, and it's, it's, it's amazing when you see a lot of these guides in, in the menti, a lot of them are very grumpy because they have to bring people to these magical places and stand back as the guests get the prime conditions, or a set comes in and the guide can't take the wave.

[00:14:44] He's gotta let the guy that can barely paddle try to catch it, you know, and, and it leads to, you know, a lot of grumpiness and a lot of, uh, a, a lot of disgruntledness, you know. But it is the curse of. Of surfing and it of course, that leads to a [00:15:00] conversation about colonization. Yeah. You know, I live in, I live in Bali.

[00:15:03] It's a surfing colony Uluwatu that cliffside little hamlet is certainly the most extraordinary colonization that has ever existed in the surfing world. Mm-hmm. And it, it brings, it brings its own evils, you know, but the whole, you know, exclusivity of, and the whole dream of, you know, living on a desert island with a perfect wave out front and, you know, a foxy girlfriend, you know, that's just, that is not satisfying.

[00:15:34] Yeah. We, we do, we are a community. We wanna be around each other. We do want community, we do want to share. And you know, like I said, there's 120 people out at Skeleton Bay. You know, it's like, it, you cannot stop us from wanting to share this extraordinary act. Yeah. And we do. And it leads to colonization and, and, um, you know, it leads to this, you know, crowded conditions [00:16:00] do,

[00:16:00] Tyler: how, how do you feel about making surfing your, your living?

[00:16:07] You know, like this is something that I had struggled with in the past where, uh, my family owned, uh, owned one of the old owns one of the oldest surf shops in New York, and I worked in that for a while and had done numerous things in surfing. Where I try to, you know, make surfing my living. You know, I tried to make it the, the thing that would, would fund this lifestyle.

[00:16:34] And I found myself dissatisfied with surfing after a while because of all the conflicts that come with it and all the frustrations. Uh, you know, how did you do it? You know? And how do you keep that excitement for surfing while still making a living off of it?

[00:16:52] Matt: Well, I, I, you know, people quite often when, when, when I talk to 'em about my life, oh, [00:17:00] you're so lucky.

[00:17:00] I'm like, like, hell, you think this, you, you think this was luck What I did? Are you adding sacrifice mind? I did this to, to great sacrifice. I did it with great financial sacrilege. I did it with, uh, uh, I never, I never raised a family. I've never owned a home. Um, I've never had a big bundle of money. You know, it's, uh, to me surfing and the surfing life I wanted to make was, was, uh, financially humble and, and fraught with, you know, fraught with, with financial disaster, you know, and there was no security and there was none of this.

[00:17:37] I mean, I didn't even get married until I was in my late fifties. And even then it was to an exotic, you know, Indonesian woman, you know, it's like, you know, it, it, it, it, it, the surfing life to make a life of it is, can be a life of great sacrifice. And to the, how you stay excited [00:18:00] is keep seeking, keep seeking the adventure, keep getting out there, keep paddling out, keep surfing, keep going to these places.

[00:18:09] I just, uh, I just got, well, you can see my shirt. Yeah. I just got back from Can Dey Resort and, and sure you can say that that was, you know, it, it's, uh, heavily trodden path. But I, I think, I think you're crazy to think that the waves were still there. You get up in the morning, you're excited, you get on the boat or you paddle out, you're waxing up.

[00:18:29] You're like, you know, and here I am in my sixties, you know, hooting and hollering when someone else takes off. So it's the surfing life as a career. Yes. I can see how it could make someone bitter, um, about not getting enough of the material things or the white picket fence or someone who wanted to have a, a, a family and, and a and own a home and, you know, the American dream, you know, I can see how that would be very disappointing.

[00:18:59] There's a [00:19:00] story in, in the book that I wrote, 'cause I, I write quite often. I write in third person. Yeah. I get inside someone else's head. Mm-hmm. And it's called Old Smoke. And it's about, it's about an old, uh, you know, cannabis grower. And how angry he is about what, what his life has ended up being. He's, he's just some cannabis grower, you know, what did surfing do this to me?

[00:19:25] You know, that sort of thing. So I believe that, um, unless you are, you know, one of the surfing brand titans, or unless you are, you know, uh, a John, John Florence and having, you know, inherited these, uh, extraordinary contracts with all this, you know, money being showered at you and all this, unless you're one of those rare things, um, you've gotta be prepared for a lot of sacrifice in order to feel something that is, that is so overwhelming and, and, and so beautiful.

[00:19:58] And you, and you have to [00:20:00] keep it, you've gotta keep it beautiful in a daily basis, or it, it will trouble you. It will it. But be prepared. Be prepared for financial and, and, and personal sacrilege and sacrifice. You know, do,

[00:20:17] Tyler: is it worth it? You know, like, I feel like sometimes that like, is the pursuit of a surfing life, you know, where, where everything revolves around it.

[00:20:31] Is it selfish or selfless? You know, because on one hand it's, it's you chasing your passions and your, your goals and your dreams, but you are sacrificing, obviously, other things as well. So I'm trying to, like, sometimes I try to think like, is it being, am I being selfish by just pursuing surfing or just wanting to do nothing but surf and, and not do other things or, you [00:21:00] know, does that make me more selfish or do, or is it because I sacrificed, uh, certain careers or certain opportunities or sacrificed time with certain people even, you know, that, that makes me a little selfless, maybe.

[00:21:14] I don't know. Yes.

[00:21:16] Matt: Well, certainly surfing, like being a musician or being a great artist or being anything you, you read throughout history or even being a great adventurer or a great sailor, or it takes obsession. If you are not obsessed, you're not gonna become Eddie Van Halen unless you're obsessed.

[00:21:34] Unless you throw yourself into it and let you know you're, you're not going that, then you're not gonna be satisfied in the fact that you're not satisfying your true desires. So yes, it can be very troubling to. To, you know, build your life, uh, you know, around the weather and around surfing and around swells and, you know, the freedom of of, of being able to do this incredible act.

[00:21:58] But on the other hand, [00:22:00] bottom line, what the hell else are you doing? Honestly, what the hell else are you doing? What? Chasing down the buck on Wall Street for what? Haven't you seen that movie? Yeah. Those people, those people are dreadful human beings. You know, I believe that having something, whether you're a skier or a surfer or a, you know, so your life can revolve around this great high, this healthy, beautiful, um, adventurous, travel laden, dreamy sport, you know, that, that fills you with these extraordinary feelings.

[00:22:38] Honestly, you know, you think that there's something better out there. You know, personally, I believe in the sacrifice, and I believe in the, in the obsession. I believe having the freedom in your life to be able to surf whenever the hell you want to. You know? And if you, if you have enough passion, [00:23:00] You'll make it.

[00:23:00] Look at Ben Gravy. Yeah. Look, you know he did it. Yeah. Look at Nathan Florence. Look at, look at, well look at his brother, John, John, look at, look at Kelly. Look at these people. Look at the brand owners. Look at, uh, SAB Bruie. Yeah. You know, if ever there was someone who was embedded in surfing and skating, oh gosh.

[00:23:19] It, you know, it was the package and the package, you know, and it's like, so for me, um, looking back, there's an absolutely zero regret because the bottom line is, my whole thing is, and I've told this to many people, what the hell else are you doing? You know, I, how else are you gonna be? How else are you gonna become Eddie Van Halen?

[00:23:41] How else are you gonna do this? Well, could there be a

[00:23:43] Tyler: balance? Is also the question, right? Could there be a balance between those two, right. Like

[00:23:51] Matt: I don't think so. I do not believe that. I think that you can have certainly a happy life and say you live in, um, you know, you live in [00:24:00] Newsom, Myrna, and you are a, let's just say you're, um, you know, you're, you, you're an accountant.

[00:24:06] Yeah. Okay. And you've got a, you know, lovely wife and a couple kids, and now, and then, you know, you get to go surf on the weekend. That's a whole different thing that, that's a different, that's a different satiation of a desire. What, what you and I are discussing is a life embedded and immersed in surfing.

[00:24:25] And let me tell you, the joys of it are not to be found only on the face of a wave. In fact, that is a very rare act. It's the community, it's the friendships you make, it's the stories you're involved in. It's the outrageous adventures, whether it's going to the end of the street as an kid, or being the first guy to discover neon or whatever, or wherever you're going.

[00:24:48] This embeddedness and this, this immersion into something like this, it just gives you a remarkable life. A, a, a life to look back on with [00:25:00] joy and glee and, and, you know, to, to, to, to, to commit yourself, you know? To this, it's like committing yourself to music. You know, I'm gonna be a great piano player, and you, you, you immerse yourself in it.

[00:25:14] And all of a sudden, at the end of your life, your friends are musicians. You've had all these incredible gigs you've done, you've seen all these incredible things. You've heard the sound of applause. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, hell yes.

[00:25:26] Tyler: It's, I, I guess sometimes, like, I always, I, I feel like sometimes there's a bit of a melancholy ness to, to some of it too.

[00:25:36] You know, like I remember reading in a surfer magazine in the late nineties, um, they did like a whole thing on photographers and they had John Buback, who I fucking loved his photography, and he wrote, he said something towards the end of his profile, he basically said, you know, here I am, you know, on this deserted island and I see this gorgeous shell and see all this beautiful thing, [00:26:00] but I have no one to, to share this with or to no one to send a shell to.

[00:26:05] And so I guess like the relationships part, which you talk about, you know, here, like very important. Sometimes the surfing, you know, for even my own personal experience can get in the way of, of those relationships and can stunt you from, from developing those relationships too. You know, I, I feel like that that definitely is something to be weighed and considered too.

[00:26:31] Matt: Well, it's, it's surfers always, uh, are in conflict when they come across a civilian, you know? I love that. You know, I love that. Of course. You know, of course it is. And, and surfers growing up, a lot of our say, uh, feminine company or, or, or, you know, and any sort of lovers' company, um, is, you know, can be completely misunderstood.

[00:26:55] And I understand, I understand how the melancholy can come from that, but it has been [00:27:00] my experience again, that if you immerse yourself in it, when I think of my circle of friends, my global circle of friends, that it, it is an extraordinary bonding experience. Mm-hmm. And surfing becomes a real home filled with, with so many different characters and so many people that you are truly bonded with because of this act that you share.

[00:27:28] And you're part of this, this community. And you can go anywhere in the world and find a surfer. The only place I've ever been where I didn't find a surfer was on the Great Wall of China. Mm-hmm. And that was in 19, and that was 1985 or something. And, you know, being me and Willie Morris, the first surfers to carry a surfboard on the, on the Great Wall, And I'll never forget that old woman coming up to me and through our translator, she asked me, what am I doing on the Great Wall of China with an airplane [00:28:00] wing?

[00:28:03] Tyler: And this is what I knew. Did she, did she say, don't you know, they go in the trunk? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:10] Matt: And I, and that's when I knew I, I was as far away from home as I would ever be.

[00:28:17] Tyler: All right. I want to go into this, this was actually one of the things I wanted to talk about is your adventure in China and mm-hmm.

[00:28:23] What was that like? I mean, God, like you guys went searching for surf surf in China mid eighties bef Yeah. You know, before the boom in China too, when it, when a lot of it was still rural. Course it was just getting started was, and have you been back since?

[00:28:40] Matt: Oh, it wild. And think of that crew. We had RA's Sun, the great queen of Makaha.

[00:28:46] We had John Dam, the pipeline charger. Oh, we had Willie Willie Morris. We had, you know, Warren bolster the great photographer. I mean, what a crew we had. But what was amazing to us is that we went completely [00:29:00] naive, uh, because it's so, it's so hard to learn about China until you get there. Yeah. But we were so naive when, when we showed up, we didn't realize until we were like 10 days in that the Chinese were hosting us like rock stars because they wanted us to train their junior springboard diving team.

[00:29:21] To become gold medalist surfers. We didn't know that. And they gave us their junior springboard diving team because they figured, well, these guys know water. These guys can swim. Yeah. These are Chinese people that can swim. And so we found ourselves down on Nan Island at a place called Spring Bay and getting there, you know, with, um, a, a, a military convoy going past overgrown, um, you know, uh, giant holes left over from the Vietnam War, the shells that used to be dropped on Nan Island on the way over the Gulf of Tonkin there.

[00:29:57] And we were in this, you [00:30:00] know, military transport being delivered. And these kids would show up in their military transport and, you know, they look like springboard divers. And, you know, we had to, you know, take 'em in the ocean, teach 'em how to surf, which is a great joy to me. But when we realized that they, they expected us to be a, a training force, it was extraordinary.

[00:30:23] And I'll never forget, of course, outta these 10 kids, there was two that really got it. Yeah. You know, they really got it. You know, they like these, these guys are talented little surfers. And they, and they were, you could see in their eyes and they were so stoked and the whole thing. And I remember to my horror, I remember I was, I was back in the United States and I was staring at the ceiling falling asleep, and I thought, what have I done?

[00:30:49] I. I left my two boards there and I mean, these kids, we, we gave them the, we gave them our boards and we gave them [00:31:00] this beautiful introduction to surfing and then we left. Now. Mm-hmm. Are they gonna be able to go back to the beach? Are they gonna be able to, how long are these boards gonna last? What if they get a dinging?

[00:31:11] There's no, nobody knows how to fix these. What if they break their board in half? You know? And I was just staring at the ceiling thinking to myself, my God, what have I done? You know, like, like I, I, I introduced like this, this disease, you know, without them being able to, you know, really participate because there was absolutely zero, um, support or absolutely zero, um, infrastructure even.

[00:31:37] And so I really, I remember, I, I, I really had a regret. I remember just, oh, I, it's, I can remember it even now, it's staring at the ceiling there when I was in Santa Barbara, just going, my God, what have I done? You know? And, and, and, and if you, if you read the China story, it ends with that sort of thought where, where there's the boy and he is going off into the rice patty with his [00:32:00] dad and, and, and their oxen, you know?

[00:32:01] And, and that's how the story ends. And I'm like, God, in a year that, that board's gonna be pretty beat up. You know, like, what's he gonna do? Where's he gonna get another channel Islands thruster, you know?

[00:32:15] Tyler: Do, do you ever have the desire to go back and try to track down that board? I.

[00:32:20] Matt: No. Um, I, I, my relationships with surfboards have always been, I believe they should be written until they're dead.

[00:32:29] And I, I, I, you know, wall hangers, they're all very pretty and

[00:32:32] Tyler: like going, no, not to keep, I meant to just get the story. Like, what an incredible story to reunite and meet the person, see if they did continue surfing or not. You know, I wonder, I

[00:32:43] Matt: I, I, I had, China is a place I never had a desire to go back to, and I don't want to of course insult anybody, you know, from China or China, the country itself, but it, it, [00:33:00] it was so, well, first of all, we didn't find good surf.

[00:33:03] Yeah. Um, and it was just so, um, otherworldly that it wasn't the kind of place that I wanted to return to, and I didn't believe in the surf there. Yeah. Um, it's a, you know, gulf of Tonkin, um, a very shallow ocean. Um, you know, I imagine the surf, you know, is a, is a lot like our, our, our East coast. Yeah. Um, but not as good.

[00:33:29] And so I. Without, without sounding, um, insulting in any way. China did not capture my surfing imagination the way these other countries had. Have

[00:33:41] Tyler: you followed or, or, or know about the guy Nick Zia, the Italian, uh, anthropologist. He's been in China, like studying surfing in China for I don't know how many years now.

[00:33:57] He is written papers on it. He actually claims [00:34:00] that surfing had, had, had sprouted there, you know, hundreds of years ago. Even. You know, there's evidence of it and it's just

[00:34:08] Matt: really interesting. I would certainly believe that. Yeah. I would, I mean, let's not forget that the Chinese were remarkable oceangoing people.

[00:34:15] Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, let us never forget that. And any, any oceangoing seafaring, um, any seafaring culture, of course is gonna have surfing. I mean, even the early sailors, the Venetians, I mean, as soon as they got on a swell on their boats, they were surfing, they felt that feeling, that rush. So, um, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

[00:34:37] I'd be very interested to, to, to read, uh, this person's work. I've never heard of him before. Oh, please do. I interesting.

[00:34:44] Tyler: I would love to read it. Oh, and the photos of the waves there look pretty full on actually. Pretty good. I'm just gonna say.

[00:34:51] Matt: So people found waves and, and you know, those, it's a typhoon sea and Yeah.

[00:34:56] You know, I can see it. Uh, we, our exploration was so [00:35:00] cursory and we had so little time, you know, I think we had, what do we have three weeks? Oh gosh. That's all we had. And we were escorted the whole time, you know? Yeah. Uh, you know, and, and protected and kept away from the culture. I mean, we, you know, we were surrounded by translators and handlers.

[00:35:15] Mm-hmm. And it was, I mean, it was like being on the Led Zeppelin bus or something, you know what I mean? Like, we, we were completely handled the whole time. So it wasn't, um, an immersive, uh, ex um, cultural experience at all. I remember once I got up early, I was in Beijing and I got up early and went for a walk to go feel the people, you know, and I was there in Nan Men Square and, um, there were these sirens and stuff, and I thought, I thought, is there any crime in China?

[00:35:44] Like, I didn't, and they pulled up and got me and bundled me into a car to get me back to the hotel. And I just went, okay, okay. This is, this is different. This is totally different. You know, that's, and so it was, uh, it was, it was, it was, it wasn't. [00:36:00] It wasn't, um, a, a real deep cultural surfing experience for me.

[00:36:05] I'm sure it's changed now. This was the mid eighties, you know, but, um, yeah, that was a different thing.

[00:36:10] Tyler: So let's talk about your book here in Deep. Sure. You know, might as well, you know, you're on the book tour, you know, and, uh, um, what I mean in Deep as a title has many layers, right? Mm-hmm. Like mm-hmm.

[00:36:28] You're in deep because of, you're in deep in surfing and it's surrounding you and obviously in Deep Barrel and all these things. Like what did, what did the title mean to you personally?

[00:36:43] Matt: Well, it, first of all, my brother Sam came up with the title of this book. Mm-hmm. And I thought it was perfect because in deep to to, to, to him symbolized our immersion into the surfing world.

[00:36:58] Like he said, you know, [00:37:00] we were embedded journalists. We were embedded before they even invented the word in the Gulf War. Mm-hmm. You know, we were always embedded and, and, and we were inside it looking out. It's like my brother's Al, my brother always said, my brother said about himself. He said, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a writer.

[00:37:18] That surfs. I'm a surfer who writes, you know, and I always thought that was a genius that my brother said that. And, and I feel a little guilty that I actually use those words in my foreword when they're actually my brother's words

[00:37:32] Tyler: word for word. It's okay. I've got a bunch of my brother's questions in here, so, okay.

[00:37:37] Younger brothers are allowed to steal from older brothers. It's all good. Okay.

[00:37:41] Matt: Okay. Fantastic. But that, that is what this title meant to me. When, when, when he said, you know, the whole, he just said, look, you gotta call the thing in deep because of all the different layers of it, you know? And I think it's also what attracted Kelly, you know, when Kelly called me up and said, Matt, you know, I, I gotta do the forward of this book.

[00:37:59] I know, [00:38:00] I know what it is, and, and I gotta be part of it. I said, that's fantastic. You know, 'cause you know, Kelly and I have been, you know, friends all our lives and when, when he wanted to be part of it, I thought, okay, this title really touches people, uh, particularly surfers. And I'm very happy with it.

[00:38:17] And I'll, I'll tell you something else about this book that I'm very happy with. Um, when you're a creative person and you've made Hollywood movies like I have and, and documentaries and, you know, N B C television series and all this kind of stuff, they always turn out not the way that you expected. You know, like you, you know, you with a Hollywood movie, you, you don't finish it, you abandon it, documentaries, you abandon them.

[00:38:44] Um, a lot of things. You abandoned this book. Looks, feels and reads exactly the way I dreamed of it. I, I just can't. But from the cover to cover the way it looks, it's got my iconic small photos [00:39:00] in it. Even though they're as big as little credit cards still, the, the down to the very type of this book is exactly the way I dreamed of it, and I am 100% satisfied with

[00:39:14] Tyler: it.

[00:39:14] Not to mention the, the handsome cover photo of you and your brother staring out into the distance.

[00:39:21] Matt: Yes. That cover, that was a new BGAN in 1984. Mm-hmm. And that's my brother in the sang and that's me standing up by the mast in that little tiny Phu sailboat back then when you had to take these little tiny boats Yeah.

[00:39:38] To get out to Newsom Bgan mm-hmm. Off Bali. And, um, this was Dawn at a place called Shipwrecks. And this photo was, uh, shot by the great surf photographer Bernie Baker. And it was, it's so sincere and it's so true that this photo has always for me, captured [00:40:00] my brother and I and our surfing life and our attitude.

[00:40:03] You can see, you can see commitment, you can see sacrifice, you can see belief, and you can see. Brotherhood. And

[00:40:12] Tyler: so even a little satisfaction too, you can see on your brother's face.

[00:40:16] Matt: Oh, without question. Yeah. Now this, this cover is a photo of two surfers who made it, they made it to this place called Shipwrecks on a little tiny island off the island of Bali in Indonesia and whatever it took for us to get there in that little boat.

[00:40:33] And you can see that channel, one of the first channel islands thrusters in the foreground. You know, we one, you know, the first Al Merrick Oh yeah. One of the first thrusters there. And this, this is an image of two surfers that have done it at a, you know, that got there, you know, and I hope that it inspires people.

[00:40:54] What was I 2025 in that photograph? I hope it inspires 25 year old surfers [00:41:00]today to go out there and get it and see it, and, and be there. Get in deep, you know, now. So I'm very, very, very happy with the presentation of this book.

[00:41:11] Tyler: I wanna ask then, was there, when you're going through and picking the stories out, was there a method or is there a re rhyme and reason of how the stories laid out?

[00:41:27] Because, you know, we have quite a few stories. There's 524 pages or 540 pages here. Mm-hmm. You know, was there an order that you put the stories in or was it more random selection?

[00:41:43] Matt: It was very random. And, um, I had great editors. Um, I had, I had, you know, DeAngelo publications with a team of editors that really helped me, uh, put this, because it is not in chronological order.

[00:41:57] This is not a memoir, it is [00:42:00] not a, uh, a history book. It, it's nothing like in, in, in many ways it's a great bathroom book. Yes. You know, because you can just thumb through it and pick, pick and choose what story you wanna read for whatever mood you're in. And this goes for both men and women because I've always been a, a strong proponent of female surfing.

[00:42:21] And there's some extraordinary stories in here about extraordinary women as well. And, and there's stories about little, you know, young surfers and old surfers and, you know, there's, there's plenty in here. Um, now I sound like I'm really shilling it, and I think you can, as you should give my sense of. I think you can feel my sense of pride.

[00:42:41] I feel that this is a real achievement. And so, no, it is not something that you read from cover to cover. It's something that you open up and discover. You discover a story that you wanna read, and it can last you so long. This book, you can live with this book, you know, you can put it in the bathroom and live with it for a [00:43:00] couple years if you want to, you know, because there's, there's so much of this.

[00:43:04] And yet when you come across a story just randomly, like, if I thumb through it, and here's the story about Marlon Gerber, you know, the surfer in Bali and his free diving experience and all this, you know, and, and you can, you, you come across something like that and you read it. And I think it just all these different stories that are not a history, not chronology, not some memoir, you know, it's all about us.

[00:43:30] You know, that's what this book is about. It's about us.

[00:43:33] Tyler: I love the fact that you lay it out as something to be discovered. And so it's not, you know, you don't have all the, you know, it's not in the timeline or it's not even, not at all in a um, you know, theme, you know, order, which. I think is great because it allows us, as a reader, like you said, to discover something new.

[00:43:56] To pick up, pick it up and be, ooh, what is, you know, [00:44:00] a beautiful island, or what is beast of burden or ice blue eyes. Okay, I'm gonna dive right into that. You know, as opposed to having to read what came before to lead into it or to, to achieving, you know, get a theme. You know, like certain people would do themes maybe of these stories, you know?

[00:44:18] Yeah. Like, and I like the fact that you allow it to be something that you could just pick up, put down very easily, which is, which has been great. You know, I've been really enjoying it.

[00:44:30] Matt: Well, I'm, I'm really proud of them of that because of the magazine format. I, I will say, if there's any theme at all, if I tried to think of a theme, it's strangely enough in, in the end, it, it very much is, um, about the Kelly Slater era in many ways, isn't it?

[00:44:49] Mm-hmm. Like, you know, you, you have a 17 year old story here about Kelly, you know, when he was 17 when I first met him, and then the very last story, I just [00:45:00] noticed it now, is called Farewell to the King. Yeah. For now. And it's a Kelly Slater story. And I'm like, 'cause you know, when I saw him, what, a couple months ago, and it's like, Wow.

[00:45:11] You know, I guess it did this extraordinary era of, of when we had a king, you know, so if there's any kind of theme, I guess it does cover that entire, everything that was in that extraordinary era. Um, e even though, you know, it's, it's not the, the story of Kelly Slater. That's not what the book is, but it does cover

[00:45:33] Tyler: that.

[00:45:33] His influence, that era. Well, that era is of his influence, you know, or Exactly. You know, it's like his and, and, and a bit of Tom Kern, of course, we gotta throw in there. Sure. But my favorite, but I think, so let me ask this, and you know, you have the seduction of Kelly Slater. The question of Kelly Slater and Farewell to the King, how has Kelly changed over the years?

[00:45:57] You know, you've known him from a real [00:46:00] young, young person to now a, a Wisened senior, uh, person in the surfing world, you know, you know, what do you think has changed about 'em and what has stayed the same?

[00:46:14] Matt: Well, I have to say what stayed the same, most of all is his stoke. Yeah. This guy loves, loves to be on the face of a wave.

[00:46:23] And he is always distracted. Surfing is always on his mind no matter what, you know? Um, he, he surfs alone. He will surf alone. He will, you know, he'll go to soup bowls at, you know, on, on, on, on a whim. You know, he, he'll go to Baron Island in, in, you know, in Micronesia because, you know, he's heard that as swell might arrive at, at, at Martin Daley's Island or something.

[00:46:49] You know, he, what has never, the, the one thing that has really defined his surfing is exuberance. Mm-hmm. And, and desire [00:47:00] and excitement about the actual, um, act of, of riding a wave. Um, the way that he has changed, I believe, is that I believe that he has become more private. Um, I think that with his maturity, um, because of, because of his exuberance in surfing, he was always very much an open book as, as most people know, um, and we gave him mystique because he's such, he's so bright, you know?

[00:47:32] Yeah. And we gave, we gave him this mystique where, you know, he was this. Ultimate competitor. And he was, you know, in the water. He was such a calculator and all this. Um, I, you know, I'm not buying that. I think he was just a red hot surfer that wanted to catch the next wave, you know? And that's, and that's why, you know, he was so dominant.

[00:47:50] So I would say now the last time I saw him, he's become a far more guarded, private

[00:47:57] Tyler: guarded, would you say? Guarded.

[00:47:59] Matt: [00:48:00] Yes. Yes. I would actually. Because of, um, you know, social media. And even though he engages in social media very openly. Yeah. Like, he is engaged, man. You know, he, I

[00:48:11] Tyler: kind of wish he would pull back from that a little bit personally, but,

[00:48:15] Matt: well, well, he is on Instagram and he, you know, he's on these things, but I believe that, um, even though he's opinionated.

[00:48:24] Yeah. I believe in his, in his, in his personal life. He, he, I believe he's become, I wouldn't say guarded so much as private because he has lived this incredibly public life, you know? And you know, I can tell you, I believe that fame is a deadly virus. Yeah. Um, fame kills, you know, uh, you know, Jim Morrison, Janice Joplin, Jimmy Hendricks, uh, Kurt Cobain, it just goes on and on.

[00:48:53] Elaine Staley. It just goes on and on and on and on. Where it is an unnatural way to, [00:49:00] to live is to be singled out as a demigod. Your entire life. And it is, it kills, you know, it, it, it makes people go insane and then it kills them, you know, like Prince. Yeah. Okay, now you take the Rolling Stones, they survived.

[00:49:19] Mm-hmm. They survived the fame thing. And the one thing I'm so impressed about with Kelly is that he survived. He has survived extraordinary fame when it could have killed him. Yeah. It killed Andy. Yeah. You know, it killed Andy Irons. But Kelly, with his courage and his ability and his steadfastness, and of course, because he is so bright, he has survived fame.

[00:49:47] And that is something I tip my hat to. Do

[00:49:50] Tyler: you think though, some, like, the one thing I always worry about with a lot of people when they become famous is they start to [00:50:00] believe or successful, even they start to believe that they're, I was successful in this, so clearly I am success. I could be successful in all these other areas.

[00:50:09] And they start to believe their own confidence almost too much and mm-hmm. You know, and I sometimes wonder if, if, and I'm sure he, he, he engages with people who disagrees with him, you know? But I, I sometimes wonder if like, when you get to that fame, you know, do you start to surround yourself with just.

[00:50:30] Or is it naturally happen that people are around you who may not always tell you the truth, are just kind of telling you what you want to hear? And I don't, I don't suppose either way with him. 'cause I don't know, but I, I, I just know that that does happen with people of, of fame and success.

[00:50:48] Matt: Sure, sure.

[00:50:49] Like, you know, I don't know. There, I read something recently on Johnny Depp and the writer realized that every single person that he called friend was were in his employee. Yeah. [00:51:00] Now, um, and that, and that's, that, that's, that's sad. But in, in, in Kelly's case, he's very much part of the global surfing community and I don't believe that he suffers from that.

[00:51:12] Mm-hmm. I really don't. Um, I think, uh, because of his honesty and his forthrightness and of, I, I think that he has survived without acolytes, ands offense, I don't think he'd put up with them. Yeah. To be quite honest with you, you know, his friends are dear and sincere and he has traveled the world in his whole career staying with families.

[00:51:35] Yeah. He, he hasn't stayed in, you know, in, in, in the Four Seasons fancy hotels, hotels and all that. Yeah. You know, he, he values the human connection and, um, and he's very good at it. Or, or people wouldn't have him back. Yeah. So that's, I had another thought about. That, um, your original question was what? Uh, it was

[00:51:59] Tyler: just, what [00:52:00] was the original question?

[00:52:00] I mean, it was, it was, it was more of a sup. I was supposing, you know, whether he, you know, the fame changed him. It was basically how has he changed over time and whether sure, you know, being famous ha and be, does he surround himself too much with people who might always agree with him? Which you've answered

[00:52:19] Matt: basically.

[00:52:20] Yeah. I answer that question. No, I don't believe that at all. I think Kelly is a very sincere human being. And, and of course our, our friendship reflects that. I mean, I was a, you know, I was just a, a, a former professional surfer of very little note competitively. Um, and then I became a surfing journalist and, and we remained friends, even though in, we could be on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to privacy.

[00:52:45] Yeah. But he's always opened up to me. He is always been very honest. Last time I saw him, we commiserated, you know? Um, no, I, I think that he is a survivor of extraordinary fame. Yeah. And a survivor of extraordinary talent, [00:53:00] uh, uh, other worldly talents. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. And, um, no, I, I think that he's a very impressive human being.

[00:53:08] Tyler: Why do you think it's so hard for him to quit the tour?

[00:53:12] Matt: I don't think it is at all. No, I don't think it is. I don't think it's hard at all. You know, should Kelly Slater retire? Absolutely not. No. If I was, my God, if I was 51 years old and I still struck fear into 18 year old top competitors, why would I quit?

[00:53:32] You know, why would I quit when I still have the ability to win at Chop and Pipeline? And why would I quit when I, when I'm one of the most brilliant small wave surfers on earth? Have you seen this guy surf two foot waves? Yeah. My God, he's still got at a hundred percent. Why quit? I, I mean, if we had a 51 year old boxer that still had a big right hand that was knocking and scaring little 18 year old boxers, [00:54:00] why would you quit?

[00:54:01] You know, like I wouldn't. I'd keep going. Yes. He had a tough year. Yes, he is aging. Yes. We have seen so much of his surfing that the judges are just like, oh my God, hasn't this guy had enough? But you see him take off at JPay, he's the most beautiful guy out there, you know, it's like, wow. You know, I mean, I wouldn't quit and I don't think it would be hard for him to quit.

[00:54:24] He's gonna know when, of course there's the big thing. Uh, he won the pipeline Masters at 50. What a great way to stop. You know, what a great thing. And I thought, what do you mean he is gonna win it next year? You know? And he might win it the next. Why would you quit? You know, I don't get it. If I was him, I'd keep I, I'd, I'd stay out there and I'd keep throwing punches.

[00:54:50] Tyler: All right. Now I wanna get into some craft here. When you, okay. What do you do to, to prepare for your profile pieces when you're able [00:55:00] to, you know, and, and what did you do? Like, what were some of the things that you would do to get ready when you're heading over to interview, especially pre-internet, you know?

[00:55:11] Mm-hmm. What were some of the, the, the, the things that you would try to get ready for? Were you just like, send me on a plane. I'm going and I'm just gonna observe and see what I can find.

[00:55:22] Matt: Well, I was very lucky to have been on the pro tour as a professional surfer. Yeah. And as I mentioned earlier, I didn't really light the tour on fire or anything, but like I said, I was there throwing punches.

[00:55:33] I have been in heats with, you know, Sean Thompson Rabbit, Bartholomew, and I've been Tom Carroll. You know, I've been in these, I've been in these heats, you know, I was there. Yeah. And so that added, uh, a lot of, uh, uh, credibility and access because these, these people have known me as not only a competitor that did his best and was there, but then became a journalist.

[00:55:58] So I was an [00:56:00] insider. And so that, that was something that I was very, very lucky, uh, to be. Now I trusted my powers of observation. Say, when I went to live on, uh, Shane, Han's, uh, commune, rainbow Bridge, right when I went to live with him on that commune for a, for, for a a, a week or two, did I do any big research?

[00:56:23] My research had been, uh, already, you know, 15 years of being around him, surfing with him, being at the, being out in the water with him, you know, being at these contest sites with him, um, being on, uh, travel adventures, you know, so when it came to that, I, I think you, I think you hit the nail on the head. I would be so excited to go and get on a plane and go do this story.

[00:56:49] And I would show up with an open mind and I would observe this person in that moment. But I had history with these people. Mm. Because even if I'd [00:57:00] never met them before, I had been reading about them and absorbing them in the media as much as I could all my life. So it was a very natural type of research that I would do.

[00:57:13] Um, I will say, one of the things that I always did is before I went, I came up with, I'd always come up with the title of the feature that I was gonna do. I, I wanted to always be under a banner, like, what is this? You know, um, the seduction of Kelly Slater. I had that in my mind before I, so

[00:57:36] Tyler: you went there to seduce him.

[00:57:38] Kidding.

[00:57:39] Matt: No, no. I, you know, I'll say I did end up in bed with him, you know, as every, as everybody famously knows, you know, I, I can honestly see, you know, I'm the only guy on the pro tour that slept with Kelly Slater, but,

[00:57:53] Tyler: but that I am pulling for a quote and I'm taking it totally outta context, Matt, go ahead.[00:58:00]

[00:58:00] Matt: Go ahead. The insiders will get it. I have no shame there. That's awesome. But, um, but yeah, I mean, so it, it was, it, it's, I always had a title in mind whether it was gonna change or not. Like, for example, the one that changed was Texas. One of my favorite stories about the, the US Championships at Texas when I got there and I saw the garbage can that had the Texan motto that said, don't mess with Texas.

[00:58:30] Yeah. You know, I thought, oh, that's the name of the title. But I, I would, my technique would be, I would have a title in my mind that was going to be the, my Mood. For example, Keala Kenley, I know that she was a dj. So I, I went there knowing that I wanted to call it Symphonies for the Devil, or, um, um, the coming of age of Mark Acal, Lupo, um, you know, Shane Han's, rainbow Bridge, you know, these, these [00:59:00] things came to me and once I got there, what I would look for is my, First sentence and my last sentence.

[00:59:11] I learned that at a very early age. I forget the book, God, I, someday I'll find it again. But when I was very young, the first line in the book was the last camel died at noon, and I went, I'm into this story. You know? Wow. So I always wanted that first sentence to be pre provocative, by the way. So that was very,

[00:59:38] Tyler: very, I have to call you out on something.

[00:59:41] Matt, you said in your interview with Matt Barr in looking sideways that you never started a article with I but in Rainbow Bridge it starts with I You sure about that? I am. I, uh, I was like, oh, I gotcha. Let's that, let's, let's look [01:00:00] it up.

[01:00:01] Matt: Because there was an intro, there was an introduction that Paul Holmes didn't I

[01:00:07] Tyler: like, I awoke with the start disoriented.

[01:00:11] There it is.

[01:00:12] Matt: Wow. Gotcha. You got me. Gotcha. You got me. Yikes. Wow. I never even noticed that. Well, fantastic. Alright. I I'll take it. I love, I'll take

[01:00:24] Tyler: it. I loved it. That was great.

[01:00:29] Matt: Yeah, it was wild. I do remember that story. I, I opened that story where, where I was having a dream about a train that was crashing into a wall and, um, and that was edited out and, and rightly so. I have been so lucky in my life to have great editors. Yeah. Wow. You know, the, the era of great editors and at one point I was the senior contributing editor and my brother Sam was the editor in chief and it to, to have those talented people.

[01:00:58] Wow. You [01:01:00] know, I was so lucky. Who, who stands

[01:01:02] Tyler: out for you? Who, who, who really, uh, do you feel like one who helped really guide you and, and really push you, uh, as

[01:01:14] Matt: an editor? Well, I, I, I, I always had a, a, a, a, a soft spot in my heart for Paul Holmes because he let me run and he, and he would, he would try to print it verbatim as crazy as some of these were.

[01:01:26] He, he would print it verbatim. So Paul Holmes was, was really great. Matt Warshaw, of course, is, is so smart. He was just so much smarter than me. You know, like it was great to be around that kind of intellect, you know? Yeah. Um, and then, um, I would say tho those two were, were, were big. Um, now working for my brother Sam, Sam was so, so ency cyclically informed.

[01:01:56] Yeah. With surfing and so [01:02:00] committed to it. And, you know, he, he, he was like Marvin Haggler, you know, they, they, Marvin Haggler always said, if you cut my head open, you'd find a boxing glove. You know, if, if you cut my brother Sam's head open, you'd find a bar of wax. You know, he's like, that's,

[01:02:12] Tyler: that's my brother too.

[01:02:14] I feel like, yeah. He's,

[01:02:15] Matt: he's, he's totally, totally committed and as an, as an editor, he was. So, I would say that he was so kind to me, um, that I wouldn't say he was a heavy influence. 'cause again, he, he let me, he let me run, he let me do what I wanted. I'd say it was Paul Holmes and Matt Warshaw. That, that were able to, um, Influence and, and, and, um, you know, edit my pieces and tell me, Matt, this, this doesn't make sense.

[01:02:47] And you know, Matt, Matt was always on me for jumping from first person to third person to second person, like in one sentence, you know? And he go, Matt, this is illiterate. And I'm like, wow, now that I read it, you're [01:03:00] right Matt. You know? And so he, he, he was, he was really good at smart writing. Yeah. And he still is.

[01:03:06] I mean, if we didn't have Matt Warshaw, what, what Matt Warshaw does with the encyclopedia of surfing is God's work. It's saintly. Yeah, it is saintly. And I'm a hundred percent behind that. Do,

[01:03:19] Tyler: was there anyone who helped influence your writing in terms of craft? Like did you go to school or university for writing, uh, at all?

[01:03:29] No.

[01:03:29] Matt: I, I, uh, I taught, you're also taught, you know, right? Yeah. My high school drop, I dropped outta high school, went to college at, at 16 and a half years old. Uh, and then in college I dropped outta that. I got an AA degree. I got a two year degree at a junior college that had nothing to do with writing. Um, I was actually in child development.

[01:03:49] I was gonna be a teacher like my mom. Wow. I, I didn't, yeah, I didn't know. I dropped outta that 'cause that, you know, it wasn't for me. Um, and what taught me was just my [01:04:00]volumous voluminous reading. Yeah. I read, I was just, I still do, I, you know, my, my, you know, I have all these books. My Kindle has like 5,000 books in it or something.

[01:04:10] I mean, I am, I was constantly reading and the big influences, I think I talked to Matt, uh, BARR about this was John Steinbeck was Yeah. He, he was just, he was a professor to me. I, I absorbed everything. He was so atmospheric and the way I learned from him how to remember and capture what people say without sticking a microphone in their face.

[01:04:33] You know, like if you want someone to change, there's three things that will make them not be real. You can put a gun in their face, you can put a camera in their face, or you can put a microphone in their face. Yeah. And these are the three things. And so I learned from reading John Steinbeck, um, voraciously, uh, about how to remember what someone said exactly and put that into [01:05:00] context.

[01:05:00] So I was very, very lucky to be a Steinbeck fan. And I am to this day. And then there was some other intellects, like Gram Green mm-hmm. And um, you know, writer write writers like that. And then later in life, the great Pete Dexter. Yeah. You know, um, was just this wild writing that I just loved so much. So, um, yes, I was self-taught.

[01:05:23] The, the heaviest influences were the books that I was constantly reading. And that's been a theme in my entire life. I mean, I, I read to this day, voraciously, it drives my wife crazy. She goes, you're just reading all the time. And I'm like, I can't, I can't help it. It's so interesting to me. She

[01:05:40] Tyler: say, you need to pay attention to me.

[01:05:42] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Well, of course. That, that's a, that's a woman's job, you know. But, um, yeah, I, I would say that if anyone really wanted, one of the things I'm missing, 'cause I I do still teach creative writing on a, on a university level. Yeah. Um, um, one of the things I [01:06:00] notice with these, the younger generation, is that they, they don't read.

[01:06:05] Yeah. They write without having this, they don't read. Like, what book are you reading right now? Mm-hmm. Nothing. What book have you read? I've never read a book. You know, it's just this sort of, um, blog, blog thinking. Yes. You know, like, and just bloggy, you know, and it, it's not, I, I learned structure, I learned, you know, the three acts.

[01:06:26] Um, I learned, you know, uh, the, the, the big, the, the climax, the big ending, you know, all these things, you know, it's

[01:06:35] Tyler: like if you watch Tom Kern surf nonstop all the time, you, you'll have some of that style, you know, and Exactly. You know, and that's the thing with writing you, or if you don't read, you're not gonna have a style really, you know, and it'll be kind of weird and, and not work and flow and, you know, it's important to have all that, you know, like I, I went to school for creative non-fiction writing as well, and it was, [01:07:00] you know, oh, fantastic.

[01:07:01] Wow. It was not, yeah. Uh, well I was gonna be a surf journalist. I wanted to be like you. And then, uh, Alan Weisbecker told me not to. He said, don't bother kid. It's not worth it.

[01:07:19] Matt: Well, I disagree. I certainly disagree with that, but yeah, there was, there is a structure and the other, pardon me. No worries. The other thing that's, that, that was a real blessing for me was being able to write magazine features. Yeah. Because they were short subject. They were about something that I really loved.

[01:07:42] Like I remember, I've, I've written a few things for the San Francisco Chronicle. One of them was about, you know, a a little girl that swam across the Golden Gate Bridge there from Fort Point, you know, the whole thing. Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm like, yeah, you know, I, I can, I can write about this, you know, but it made me think of writers [01:08:00] that, you know, get these assignments where, okay, you've gotta go cover the watermelon seed spitting contest, and then the next day, you know, you've gotta go do a profile on this guy that, uh, is a graffiti artist.

[01:08:11] Yeah. And you know, the, these different crazy things that you'd have to write about. I had, I was writing for my, I was writing for my own Bible and I was writing the book of Matthew. I love that.

[01:08:26] Tyler: Let me ask then, you constantly put in your, your work and, and what I love about it too, it's like you get into the surfer's head.

[01:08:39] You write almost like what they're thinking. You frequently do this. Like where you, you're, you inter interject almost like they're thinking about this, um, one, how, yes. How do you go about doing this? Or how did you go about doing this? And two, had anyone ever called you out and been like, Matt, that, that's definitely not what I was thinking at that time.

[01:08:59] [01:09:00] Like, I remember when, when you wrote about Kern winning the world title and you, you, you got in his head and you were like writing about what he was thinking and you know, your piece in, in here, you know, um, you know about Kern, you know, it's like you're in his head and I'm like, it, my brother and I would always joke about this, be like, is he really thinking that?

[01:09:20] Or, you know, but yeah. But it, it really is like, I think it is wonderful though because it really does give you a mood, a feel and add some drama, uh, to the profile and to the writing. So how would you go about this? You know, how would you

[01:09:37] Matt: get in their head? I get asked about this and, and yes. It, it, it, there's been some difficult times being friends and then writing about someone.

[01:09:48] And Tom Kern is a great example. I mean, we, you know, we used to live together. Yeah. You know, and, and um, you know, getting inside. Someone's head. And, um, there were times when it did cause a rift [01:10:00] and, and, and distance. But, and, and especially with my, my dear friend and, and a big influence on my writing, Dave Parmenter Yes.

[01:10:07] Who, who is, who is a, a clearly a genius and, and probably, you know, the best writer among us. Um, but he, I've, I've written about him quite often and he's like, Jesus, Matt, like, you're getting inside my head like this, and what if I didn't? And I, that's not exactly, you know, and I'm like, no, it's not. But it was my intuition.

[01:10:26] Yeah. It was my intuition. So I, I'll answer the question this way, very rarely has, has someone like Tom Kern or Dave Parmenter or, or even Shane Horan, come up to me and say, that's not, that's not correct. You know, I mean, even, you know, even Keala, you know, thought I pegged it. One of the interesting stories in here, in this book is the one of Oscar Wright.

[01:10:50] Yeah. And I get into, to his head very deeply about how his father's suicide affected him so much. And I, I [01:11:00] get, I get into his, I get into his head and, and he came to me afterwards and just said, Matt, you know, wow. That was, how did you know that? You know, how, how did you know what I was thinking? And I'm like, there's an intuition.

[01:11:18] Are you gonna call it a gift, you know, like being, being born able to play the piano or something? You know, I've, I believe that I've, I've had this skill to be able to feel and look into someone's eyes and get pretty close to what they're thinking in their head. Because as you know, when I would approach these people, I wasn't that interested in what they were saying.

[01:11:43] I was mostly interested in what they weren't saying. Mm-hmm. What is this person not, not saying? You know, like the last couple lines of the Oscar story, it reads and then exhaling with a great [01:12:00] sweep of his arms. Oscar Billy Pippin Wright chooses to swim up to the surface again. He swims up, up towards life, towards love, toward forgiveness.

[01:12:13] Yeah. Man, you know, my intuition, I, I know I sound like I'm aggrandizing myself, but that's what it means to be a writer, Tyler, do you, it means to be, have the courage to go out on a limb and, and, and to, and to write these things that you are intuitive to you. If you don't, you're just a blogger and you're just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:12:37] You know, I, I tell my students, write at a tearful level. If you're not writing at a level that will make yourself cry. Forget it. Mm-hmm. You know, like, what are you doing? What, what are you holding back? I don't get it. You know, like, commit yourself to it and have the courage to put it out there, [01:13:00] man. You know?

[01:13:00] So, no, I have not been approached with anger ever.

[01:13:06] Tyler: Well, not anger, just like, even like humorous, I imagine, you know, like actually I was thinking, I was thinking about a bacon, egg, and cheese I wanted to have, but whatever, you know?

[01:13:17] Matt: No, there's been a lot of pats on my back, you know, like Matt, Jesus, Jesus, Matt, I didn't know you were gonna do that, you know?

[01:13:24] And I'm like, well, you know, that's, that's the way I called it and that's the way I saw it.

[01:13:29] Tyler: And so what do you think there's a certain level of empathy that you have, you know, and I'm wondering where that might have come from.

[01:13:39] Matt: Oh my goodness. Come on. Come on. I live, I grew up in a, in a room with, you know, four boys and my dad remarried.

[01:13:46] Um, the woman he married had two, uh, boys of her own, and they became my younger brothers. We all lived in one room, uh, you know, sure. A humble Navy family. And when I went to say [01:14:00] Kelly at 17 years old, and the family's sleeping on mattresses on the floor, and Kelly's blanket is a moving blanket from the Mayflower Moving Company.

[01:14:08] You don't think I could relate to that? Yeah. As a, as a person that at a very young age, with the Navy family, you know, being stationed in different places and all that, of course the empathy, the empathy is, is very deep. I, I believe, I believe that to you, to look into somebody else's eyes and, and feel something, to feel something, you know, I even teach it in my classes where I tell them, I go, look, one of the things I want you to do is I want you to go out today and come back and write an essay about what you saw in someone else's eyes.

[01:14:48] And that's the empathy, that's the empathy factor. And yes, I would definitely say that I have a great deal of [01:15:00] empathy, which is probably why I, I ended up doing all that wild aid work around the world. Yeah. You know,

[01:15:08] Tyler: Question for my brother here. He wanted to ask, how would profile subjects benefit from having more in depth profiles than those that are being written today, rather than themselves curate their presentation.

[01:15:22] Matt: Well, see, that's the thing. Everybody's Bethany Hamilton now. Yeah. You know, because of, because of social media. Everybody wakes up. They've had a wonderful croissant and they've done, they got their massage and they've hopped in their ice bath and boy did they get a barrel today. And what a life, you know, happy birthday to my beautiful wife and the whole thing when, you know, they're arguing like crazy, you know?

[01:15:41] And it's like, you know, it, it's so shallow. Yeah. Everybody's swimming in the shallow end, you know. Um, so, uh, what, what is the direct

[01:15:52] Tyler: question? It was, um, how, how could sub profile subjects benefit from having more in-depth profiles than [01:16:00] what is being written today? You know? Well, what,

[01:16:03] Matt: what better way to learn about yourself Yeah.

[01:16:05] Than to have someone else write about you, some other perspective. How to become more mature, a more full. Rounded person to, to have someone else examine you and have your life examined. You know, what better way to learn about yourself and improve your own life and to learn about yourself and become a better surfer and a better person.

[01:16:26] Um, of course it would also benefit, uh, in sales. Yeah. You know, like when you, you know, you, you, you create, you create a legend like Tom Kern and you're gonna, you know, you're gonna buy the rip curl clothes, you know? That's right. This is what you're gonna do, you know, and you're gonna go on the search and you're gonna do these things.

[01:16:42] So there's the commercial aspect of it, but on the personal aspect of it, what better way, you know, one of the things that has startled me by doing a number of these podcasts are these introductions that people have, like yours. I'm like, wow. I mean, of course [01:17:00] they're very complimentary. I, I would love to hear the other side of it, you know, but these, these, these, these introductions that I'm hearing from people, I'm just, I can't believe it.

[01:17:10] I'm like, wow. I guess, I guess I really did reach out and touch some people, you know? So, and that's made me a, a more humble person and a more, a more I understand myself and my role, my role in the surfing world better because of somebody examining my life, you know? So that is what is the benefit, John?

[01:17:33] John Florence, my white whale, he would benefit deeply. Yeah. From a profile written by Matt George.

[01:17:41] Tyler: I think listeners, we should start a letter writing campaign or a common I agree. Common campaign, you know, to John John on his Instagram. Be like, you really should let Matt George interview you. Hey everyone.

[01:17:53] Yeah. Really should let Matt George interview, it'd be great.

[01:17:56] Matt: But with the five day rule, yes. You remember my of course rule, [01:18:00] right? I've gotta, I gotta live with them for five days. Even if I, I mean, I slept on the floor of Rob Machado's bedroom. Yes. Okay. You know, like that. And I am humble enough to do that.

[01:18:12] You know, I, I slept on Mark Alto's couch, you know, it's like, yes, I wanna know, I want to know what's going on. You know, I'm not gonna meet you in a cafe and turn on my little tape recorder and spend, you know, half an hour with you. I, you know, I have no interest in that whatsoever.

[01:18:31] Tyler: Um, I want to then talk about like, some of your, couple of your pieces, um, that I really enjoyed, you know, and I think Ferrison, we've talked a little bit about this now, is your Rainbow Bridge article in Shane or Ann, and I'm, I'm curious, like what was his react reaction to it after you wrote it?

[01:18:53] 'cause there's, there are definitely references and you obviously write about it at the end about, you know, [01:19:00] homosexuality and, and whether he's possibly bisexual because he is living on a commune, uh, with all men. And it, you definitely. From reading it feel, I get a sense of like, you're kind of like, I can't believe this is going on.

[01:19:17] All of this stuff that the way he's living, you know, it, it, it, it kind of almost confirmed a lot of the rumors in some ways, you know, that he was off living in a really, uh, alternative lifestyle, for sure. Not, not, yes. Not, but he, he, he confirms listeners that he is not gay. You know, not there's anything wrong with it, but, you know, just, yeah.

[01:19:39] Just

[01:19:40] Matt: wanted to point that out for, well, I thought that was important to me because of all these rumors, and it was very important when he said, listen, I'm letting you know I am not gay. Yeah. Even though he was living around obviously, uh, gay people, but he said, I'm just, I'm celibate and, um, I don't want anything to do with women right now.

[01:19:59] And [01:20:00] so I, I respected that. Yeah. And I respected his commitment to this, to this crazy commune. You know, what was going on there was just completely alternative. And, uh, I used the word crazy, uh, lightly. I hope I, that doesn't sound too insulting, but it was, it was very drifty. It, it wasn't anchored in anything.

[01:20:20] It, it was, it was a belief in. Being drifty, you know, of just being loose and, and, and, you know, um, living in the commune with the vegetarian dogs, you know, just like, you know. Wow. You know, it was, it was and up in the hills there. And, and it was, it was, but it was a commitment. Yeah. He was committed to it.

[01:20:42] And here's a young man here. Here's a former, you know, junior Australian skateboarding champion who became this, this fantastic competitor and this great surfer and, and, and an extraordinary tube rider. And he, he, he, he, he raised himself on the streets of [01:21:00] like Bondi and, and, and he, he was very much alone.

[01:21:03] He didn't have a, a, a lot of guy, you know, he was like a ward to the surfing world. Yeah. He was like a ward to the pro tour. The pro, the pro tour adopted him. And, and so he was experimenting and, and, and, you know, feeling out who he was. And I found that, you know, a very deep commitment. Did I agree with it?

[01:21:24] Obviously, if you read my feature No, I, I actually, I actually showed a lot of disdain. Yeah. Uh, I would say, you know, and because that's how I felt, and I, I, you know, I felt that there was a, uh, a lot going on that was, that was, uh, not anchored in any sort of reality. Yeah. You know, and so I, you know, exposed that.

[01:21:45] Now, the other thing that happened to me, which was I. Very disturbing. And, and this gets back to the point that I missed mm-hmm. Was with Keala. Yeah. I outed Keala in that story. [01:22:00] I just, barefaced Lee outed her. Yeah. And she called me afterward. And just, Jesus Christ, Matt, you know, she was, I think she's still angry to this day because she hadn't told her family yet.

[01:22:13] She hadn't shared this, you know, but it was so, she was so obvious with me. Yeah. When I was living with her there in Honolulu, she was so obvious about her, her, her persuasions and her, her girlfriend. Yeah. You know, and all, and that I thought, well, if she, she's so open about it. I, I didn't know it was a secret.

[01:22:33] Tyler: Everything's on the record when you're staying with them. You know, it's like, you'd have to imagine they would understand that all of it would be on the record, you know? And that quote of Yeah, this woman making her, a woman of her, you know, that you said. Yeah. Like, you would think that would be like obvious, I guess you would think.

[01:22:53] But it, yeah.

[01:22:53] Matt: And I felt terrible about it. Yeah. And because I love her and, and I, I love her courage. And I, [01:23:00] I can say I love Keala Kinley. And I, I loved her when I was staying with her. I just, I, you, you are an extraordinary human being. Keala. Mm-hmm. You know? And so I felt so bad. Now look, This is gonna sound like I'm trying to, you know, make it all better.

[01:23:17] Okay. But the truth of the matter is that much later in life, gosh, I get, maybe even as much as 10 years ago, we saw each other at Uluwatu and she put her hand on my shoulder and said, Matt, I do forgive you. Mm-hmm. And this was a long time after that was done. And, and, and I said, wow. And I, I'm so glad that you do.

[01:23:42] And she goes, you know, it did help me with my family in the end. And it also got her that role on the television show. Yeah. Um, John from Cincinnati. Mm-hmm. You know, they, they found that, they found that story that, that this was just a fascinating young [01:24:00] lady. So in the end it worked out. But I will tell you, to my horror, when she called me after that came out just going, Matt, I can't believe you've done this.

[01:24:12] That to me was, was the darkest moment in my career.

[01:24:16] Tyler: I can totally, I mean that, wow. It's, it's definitely not a way anyone wants to come out, you know? And it's, it's awful, you know, that it's

[01:24:27] Matt: so public. Oh my God. But it,

[01:24:30] Tyler: you know, On the other side of it. It's, it seems to have worked out at least, but it's definitely,

[01:24:39] Matt: but at at that, at that moment, it, it was a real horror for me.

[01:24:43] Yeah. And, um, and it, it, I was, I, I felt regret and sadness and, uh, I'd gone too far and, and all this, but you know, that's the way it was and I made my call. Um, it, it, it was never said it was [01:25:00] inaccurate. Yeah. That was never said, you know, but it was

[01:25:04] Tyler: Did you wanna recluse after that? Like, were you like, I need to take a break, or you're just

[01:25:12] Matt: No, never.

[01:25:13] Never. Because I believed in what I wrote and I believed it and it was true, and I just had to take it. I had to take the fact that someone I loved, I hurt. Yeah.

[01:25:26] Tyler: With Rainbow Bridge though, what was Shane's reaction to that piece then? Did you ever hear from him? He was, he,

[01:25:33] Matt: he was really understanding. He goes, Matt, you know, we were really trying to do something positive out there.

[01:25:39] Yeah. We were trying to change the world. We were, you know, talking about geodesic domes that leave no footprint on earth. And, you know, we were eating this macrobiotic food and we were really trying to be, you know, we were trying to be a, a new global brain, you know? Yeah. You, you could have, you could have written about the positivity of it all, [01:26:00] you know, He came to me with that and, and I mean, one of the points, I mean, we're still friends, of course, but then on the other hand, he appreciated the honesty.

[01:26:10] He goes, well, it is what it is because if, you know, there's nothing inaccurate. There was no lies, there was no nothing made up. And, and it was also very respectful if you, if you go back and read it. I had disdain for what was going on in the commune, but I had ultimate respect for, for Shane himself. And I end the whole story with hoping, hoping that he would snap out of it.

[01:26:36] Yeah. And that this would just be an era of his, because he deserved to be, he deserved his role as, as the number two surfer in the world forever. You know, he, he was, he. And, and so I end the whole thing with hope, like snap out of it and get back to your, get back to the lion. Get back to the tiger that you are, well, it's, you [01:27:00] know, this hippie, the hippie thing is not working for you.

[01:27:03] Well, I

[01:27:03] Tyler: loved how you, you had the, the Jekyll Hyde you mentioned and how he's. He picks you up, he's got incense burning, trying to portray this image, and then when he drives, it's like, oh, lead foot, my God. And aggressive. Terrifying.

[01:27:24] Matt: Terrifying. And, and, and every other driver on the road is a combatant. You know, just like, you know, what are these people doing on my road?

[01:27:33] You know, it's like Jesus Christ, you know? Incredible.

[01:27:38] Tyler: Now what about Bo Young Walks on water? That was an interesting piece where it definitely got national attention in Australia. Yes. You know, and it, it, it definitely showed some sort of disdain for Nat, his father, you know? Yes. Um, [01:28:00] how, how was that received to you and how, how did you feel about that piece, uh, after it wrote, after you wrote it?

[01:28:07] You know,

[01:28:08] Matt: I, I believe it's one of my greatest, I loved it. I mean, I

[01:28:11] Tyler: loved it, by the way. It was great.

[01:28:14] Matt: And I'm very proud of it. Again, it was very truthful and, and very courageous. Mm-hmm. You know, um, everyone was courageous. Nat Young, his son, Beau, myself. This, this triad came together to examine. An extraordinary father and son relationship and an extraordinary incident, uh, that almost resulted in a death.

[01:28:38] Yeah. And so it had to be written with, with honesty and brutality. It had to be, um, uh, again, Beau after he read it, he said, this is really gonna help my relationship with my father. You said a lot that I've never been able to say. Yeah. I know that Nat, you know, was upset [01:29:00]because Nat has always, um, presented his, his own version of himself to the world.

[01:29:06] Yeah. Like a lot of us do. I wasn't angry at Nat, um, or any of these things. No. But I just told the truth of how I saw it and, um, and I'll, I'll never forget that walking down the street in Sydney and seeing the, you know, the headlines, you know, where a SPO bashes nat, you know, um, you know, American American journalist, you know, destroys an icon, an Australian sporting icon.

[01:29:34] I'm like, whoa. Oh my God. I was looking over my shoulder hoping no one's gonna hit me with a lead pipe, you know? But, um, again, it's that courage thing that, that I try to encourage. Yeah. In, in, in my writing classes is, you know, write at a real level. Don't hold back as long as it's true. And if it's your call, you've gotta be able to hold.

[01:29:58] Your chin up throughout [01:30:00] history, journalists have been hated and, and, and, and vilified and hit with lead pipes and, you know, murdered and Yeah. You know, of course they have, you know, that it throughout history and you, if you're really, if you're really gonna write about someone else, I just say, tell the truth, make the calls.

[01:30:21] You know, there's nothing that drives me more crazy these days than, you know, someone saying that last swell was perhaps, maybe arguably, um, the biggest swell, um, in the last three weeks perhaps. And I'm just like, what? What argu, arguably, let me tell you what that swell was. That was the biggest swell in the last 10 years, is what that was.

[01:30:48] It wasn't arguably no. You know, the, say it definitively. Yeah. Kelly Slater is arguably the greatest surfer of all time. Huh. You know, like, [01:31:00] make the call. Yeah. I don't want to hear. Perhaps, maybe arguably it's weak. Mm-hmm. It's weak and, and, and it, it's mely mouthed and I just, I think that journalists have got to make the calls, you know?

[01:31:16] Tyler: Do you think it's more difficult in today's climate, you know, where everyone can be kind of called out and kind of shamed and public or whatever, you know?

[01:31:28] Matt: Does it. Honesty is always honesty. Honesty will always be straight up. Honesty and snarkiness will always be snarky. I mean, look at beach grit. Yeah.

[01:31:36] You know, those guys are masters of the snark. You know, you can, you can nip like a little chihuahua, you can lip nip at people's heels as much as you want, you know, and that's fine. And Derek Riley, Derek Re is a good friend of mine and I understand what he's doing. He's got a niche. And Chaz Smith, let's not forget, he's a really good writer.

[01:31:56] Yeah. I don't know if you've read books.

[01:31:58] Tyler: I've read many of his books and [01:32:00] interviewed him for them.

[01:32:00] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I'm a fan of, of, of Chaz Smith. I'm a fan. I have my cri, I have my

[01:32:06] Tyler: critiques. Good writing. I have my critiques. But they're, they're good, you know? Sure.

[01:32:10] Matt: Yeah. I, but I'm a fan. I love that thing he did on Michael Thompson.

[01:32:14] Yes. I was like, wow, man, that, that I, I, I actually, I don't know if he ever got the message, but I wrote a letter, I wrote a email to, um, Derek saying, can you tell Chaz how much, how impressed I was, you know? So I get it. So honesty will always be there. It it, it, it, it is, it's a standard and it's a banner and it's a flag that's planted in the sand with real journalist.

[01:32:39] And you've gotta make the call, you know, Norman Mailer. Mm-hmm. And Muhammad Ali, you know, um, I could go on and on. Um, I. Of honesty.

[01:32:49] Tyler: I loved in the Bo Young, the quote of, some wounds never heal, right? Yeah. You start it and then you end it with that, and at the end you [01:33:00] realize the wounds are are to Nat and not Bo, you know?

[01:33:05] Yes. And the fact that Bo is raised basically by his mother and stepfather instead of that, and he credits them more. Yes. I thought that was beautifully woven in.

[01:33:17] Matt: Yes. Those, those, those family wounds that The invisible scars. Those invisible scars that we all have. Yeah. You know, I think that it's, it's important to bring this out.

[01:33:30] I mean, surfers, what makes golfing, what makes them more important or be better? Um, athletes or some what? 'cause they make more money. You know, what, what makes, um, you know, tennis players or Roger Federer, you know, what, what, what makes, what gives him more credibility as an icon than, um, you know, um, John, John Florence or Kelly Slater or Tommy Kern or whatever, like, or Bo Young, like I don't understand Tiger Woods is more important 'cause why there's more money, you [01:34:00] know, like, well you can take money and you know where you can put that.

[01:34:02] As far as I'm concerned, these are humans that are our public figures and we. I think I've already made this point. Deserve to know them. Yeah. And relate to them.

[01:34:20] Tyler: Now I'm gonna switch course here. I have to ask, I heard you and your brother were consultants on North Shore, the movie. Is that true? Yes. Brian

[01:34:35] Matt: Kate.

[01:34:35] Did they listen? Did they listen to a word we said no. Did my brother eventually late in life marry the female lead of the movie? Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's about as far as that goes. And I'll tell you this, Matt Adler is still a very keen surfer and just a hell of a nice guy.

[01:34:58] Tyler: So is turtle to [01:35:00] day, you know John Felman too, you know?

[01:35:02] Sure. I mean all of them, you know, basically surfed, you know, it wasn't, um, you know, they got it. You know it, I heard this from Brian King who was the real life turtle. Yeah. Although he had, he had some not as favorable words about you guys though, but I'm sure, I'm sure I want to hear the backstory there.

[01:35:28] Matt: Don't know much about it. Honestly. I really don't know much about it. Um, When I made, when I, when I, when we made in God's hands. Yeah. Um, the, the thing that I'm, I'm most proud of is the fact that the surfing was so ir remarkable. Yeah. You know, like there's never been a movie where all the actors did their own surfing at a world class level.

[01:35:49] And we did, you know, Shane, Dorian, Maddie Liu, myself, we did all our own surfing, all our own stuff. And, and I mean, there's never been [01:36:00] footage like that. Well, I mean,

[01:36:01] Tyler: let's, let's, let's be a little honest. You had a little Todd Chesser help too. Rest in peace. Oh, sure,

[01:36:08] Matt: sure I did. You bet. I did. Um, no, no question about that at all.

[01:36:13] Um, and I'm very proud of that, um, that, that, that, you know, he, we, him and I looked so, you know, we looked so much alike and we weighed exactly the same that he took three of my boards, those, those cool boards with the American flag on the bottom, and he surfed them for years. He just went, oh man, these are insane.

[01:36:31] You know, these are incredible. Now I gotta ask. Not for years, but he kept

[01:36:35] Tyler: them. Now I gotta ask then the, my brother and I were talking about this, like, if you had complete creative control over in God's hands, how would've the film differed from how it turned out?

[01:36:49] Matt: Well, I would've been the first, I would've been the first, um, surfer to get a Nobel Peace Prize for a screenplay.[01:37:00]

[01:37:03] Tyler: That's good.

[01:37:04] Matt: Oh boy. Wow. I based, my original script was based on Homer's Odyssey. Yeah. And, uh, I just, I, I followed it beat for beat for beat for for beat. And then they just, they just spun off into wacko ville. But there are some great sincere scenes in that movie, and the surfing is great and all that. Um, I, I, I, I do, I did fall into the, the, the typical Hollywood pattern of the only drama is riding the big wave, slaying the dragon, you know, like from Ride the Wild Surf to.

[01:37:38] Big Wednesday to even later on. Mm-hmm. You know, Mavericks and all these things. You know, I fell into the same pattern. The only challenge is we've gotta face this giant wave. We've gotta slay the dragon. Um, and that, that, you know, I fell into that whole drama thing, but, um, you know, that's what I did and that's what I had.

[01:37:56] And, uh, you know, I'm, I'm proud of the whole [01:38:00] experience and there's a lot of people that, that really liked that movie. Um, I always, I always tell them, uh, if you, if you watch in God's Hands today, watch it in German subtitles and then it'll actually have a plot.

[01:38:15] Tyler: But like, I remember reading an article, you were, there was even talk of, like, you guys were writing as you were going along too.

[01:38:23] Like you had written it out, but then the, the rewrites were constant as you were going. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna know whose idea was it to have the half pipe on the

[01:38:33] Matt: ship? Oh my God. Of course. That was me. I've been, I've been such an avid skateboarder all my life. I still skate. There's a skate park at the end of the street and it's hilarious.

[01:38:46] Just the other day I was there and I. There was a woman there watching her three little kids, you know, the whole thing. Oh yeah. And we struck up a conversation, the whole thing. And she looked around the kids and said, uh, which one are yours?

[01:38:58] Tyler: It was like, that's me. [01:39:00] I am. And

[01:39:00] Matt: I said, lady, I'm skating here. I'm not babysitting.

[01:39:06] And I, you know, dropped into the bowl, you know, like it was hilarious. But, um, yeah, the skateboarding thing, here's what was so hairy about the skateboarding thing. Okay. The skateboard ramp on the ship, we built that, a nice ramp on that ship. And what would happen was on an

[01:39:22] Tyler: actual ship you built the freaking not in a sound stage.

[01:39:26] Matt: Yeah. Well, we had one on the sound stage. Yeah. And then we had one on the ship. Shut,

[01:39:30] Tyler: shut the front door. Yeah.

[01:39:32] Matt: If you shut the front door, man, if you look, if you look at those shots of, of the boat, you'll see the ramp out at sea. You'll, you'll, you'll see it. Uh, it's, you'll see it. So what we did was, what was so hairy about it.

[01:39:45] Matt was a really good skater. And, um, and what we did was, what, what was so hairy is when we got out on the boat, as the boat rocked, he'd boost an air and then the boat would rock. And all of a sudden he'd be 20 feet in the air. Oh God. [01:40:00] 'cause, 'cause the boat would rock while he

[01:40:03] Tyler: was in the air and he'd be in the middle, it seemed like, oh,

[01:40:06] Matt: horrible and dreadful wipeouts.

[01:40:08] And that's what made we go, look, we've gotta build one, we've gotta build another one in, in a sound studio. We're gonna kill Mattie Liu. You know? And so, We, we did very little skateboarding on the actual ship.

[01:40:22] Tyler: I, I, I mean, it was random. I'm just gonna say, it was like, where did the skate ramp come from?

[01:40:30] Matt: Who has a skate rep on a ship? Well, remember that was, remember that famous line that came from my Chinese trip, from my trip to China when I said, uh, you know, we we're, we're, we're, we're building. We like the Chinese.

[01:40:45] They don't build temples to the size of the human body. They build temples to the size of the human spirit. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's what that whole thing was about. I thought it'd be really creative to, to build a skateboard ramp on a ship. I thought that'd be awesome. I [01:41:00]thought that'd be really neat.

[01:41:01] You know, while we're on a tramp steamer, a bunch of surfers while we're crossing the ocean, we've gotta skate. We gotta surf. We gotta get the feeling. So we'll build our own ramp on the ship, you know? Awesome. What, um, that was a lot of fun.

[01:41:13] Tyler: What was it like working with Alman

[01:41:15] Matt: King? Well, as you know, um, I became, um, uh, I became a writer for the Red Shoe Diaries as well.

[01:41:24] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, him and I were family. Um, he was an, an obviously an eccentric, uh, director. And, um, you know, we, we became family. I mean, in many ways. Um, and, uh, working with him was, um, frustrating because he wasn't a surfer and, um, he had his own, you know, wild ideas. But I'll tell you what, working on the Red Shoe Diaries was, was fascinating to write from a woman's perspective about sensuality and then to be writing this movie at the same time.

[01:41:56] And of course, he had all his changes and he's a director, so he [01:42:00] wants, you know, he wanted everything to go his way and the whole thing. And there was a lot of conflict and a lot of frustration at my part. Um, by the time that movie was over, I actually had two ulcers in my stomach that had to be treated medically, really.

[01:42:15] And that's, that's how much I put into that and how frustrated I was with what I, what I saw as the end result. I, I was extremely frustrated. It was, to me, it was such a simple story and it became so crazy and convoluted. But on the other hand, it was a, it was, it was one of. It was the time of my life traveling around the world, making a giant Hollywood movie with my friend Shane Dorian at

[01:42:38] Tyler: u getting to surf and skate and surf,

[01:42:41] Matt: skate, do whatever, you know, train, hanging out with the Kayana and, and Derek Donner and all these heroes

[01:42:47] Tyler: and got all your friends paid.

[01:42:49] Which is amazing, by the

[01:42:50] Matt: way. Exactly. So I, it's a real positive, uh, a real positive vibe for me. One of the fun things I do to this [01:43:00] day is I have a little mini film festival that I do here in, in Bali, and one of the things I do is I do a 40 minute program with in God's hands, where I fast forward to the fun parts and tell the story behind it.

[01:43:14] Nice. Which is really funny. All these, all these funny stories, I mean, it's a whole nother book I'm planning is, is in God's hands Really what my, yeah. What my whole Hollywood experience was. It's a book, you know, that was three years of my life, you know, and um, and coming from nowhere and all of a sudden, you know, being an executive producer on a hol giant Hollywood movie about surfing.

[01:43:36] That's a book man. Yeah. And we had, um, you know, all these adventures and all these things and it was great. We could talk about it for hours, but I'm gonna lay it down in a book, which is gonna be extraordinary.

[01:43:46] Tyler: I think now I have to ask about the Marines and Navy Seals particularly. Sure. 'cause you went through the training.

[01:43:57] You know, but then you didn't [01:44:00] become a Navy Seal though, so I'm curious, like what happened there? If you can give us a little bit of that story, because my brother and I, I need a real

[01:44:07] Matt: simple story. Yeah. A real simple story. I was 20, I was 26, 27 years old. I was doing triathlons. I was in great shape. I was disillusioned with surfing.

[01:44:17] I became disillusioned for the, the first and only time in my life. Was there a reason for 'cause Yes. I wanted to be, I, I didn't want to end my life being the guy in the Aloha shirt, you know, drinking at Jimmy Buffett's bar. Okay. I, there was something about that that just, and because of my military background and because of, I wanted to impress my father as well, which I'd never done.

[01:44:44] Uh, my father was, you know, never impressed with me and I wanted to impress him. And here I was in tremendous shape. And I thought, all right, I'm gonna go try to be the best in the world at something. I'm gonna belong to something that people can point at and say [01:45:00] that is one of the best, the best at something in the world.

[01:45:03] You know, because of course, you know, my surfing career, I was, I was, you know, I was, I never lit up the tour or anything like that, and I was dissatisfied. I thought that I. Had greatness in me. Little did I know how misguided that was. It was extreme. My decision to join the Navy was extremely misguided. And one of the things that is out there in the surfing world that is not true is I did not go through SEAL training.

[01:45:28] Okay. I, I did not. I got kicked outta there before I even got to that. Wow. Okay. What happened was, I joined up and I qualified for seals with the initial bootcamp stuff, pushups, running, swimming. When they saw me swim, they just went, okay, you know, this guy. Okay. So, you know, so I qualified for the SEAL program and was in the bootcamp preliminary, [01:46:00] um, training where it was basically just more, uh, pt more, more physical, you know, more sit-ups, more pushups, uh, that sort of thing.

[01:46:09] But I was never in the Buds, uh, program, and this is something that's really important to me. When I got there and I was around real navy seals, I could only think of myself as an ant, and these guys were, were elephants. They, that goal was so far beyond my capability and it was so wrapped up in, you know, trying to impress my dad and trying to impress myself.

[01:46:38] That it, it was the most misguided thing I'd ever done in my life. I am not proud of it. I am very proud of the military and the heroes that I've been around in my life, but I did not have the ability, and it's, I, I've, it's always bugged me in the surfing world that people think I went through seal training.

[01:46:56] Yeah. I was not tough enough. And I got [01:47:00] kicked out because I was not tough enough.

[01:47:03] Tyler: Can we unpack that a little bit with your, with your father and wanting to impress him? Sure. You know, did, was that like a common thing? Was he, was he difficult to kind of please?

[01:47:17] Matt: Well, he was just distant in many ways. Um, he, he, he of course was a romantic and there were so many, I could, I could tell you all the good things, you know.

[01:47:25] Yeah. About, you know, we, we used to hunt together and, you know, all the, but he was, he was an aviator and a pilot, and then he was also a dentist in the Navy. He became a, my gosh, a dentist after World War, after World War ii. But he always had aviation in his life, which was another heroic thing. And like I said, uh, you know, on Sundays, you know, my dad would go to work in a, in a white and gold uniform with a saber at his side, you know?

[01:47:49] And I'm like, Jesus, this is impressive shit. You know? And, and so, um, and, and so I wanted a piece of that. I wanted to wear a sword, you know? [01:48:00] And, um, it was just a very, um, misguided thing. Um, Yeah. Uh, my father never understood our obsession with surfing Sam and I didn't know where it was going. He wanted us to, you know, be college graduates and become doctors or something, and, you know, ha have, have money.

[01:48:20] Mm-hmm. You know, he, he wanted all that for us. And, and Sam and I wanted the absolute opposite of that, you know? And, um, so there was a distance there. He, he never understood. I sent him all these postcards all over the place from wherever I was. I'd send him postcards. And I do remember, uh, a very poignant moment when he was in the last days of his life.

[01:48:41] I, I found all the postcards, uh, wrapped up with a, uh, rubber band in, in his, uh, in his desk at home. Oh, wow. And I thought, okay, so even though he never mentioned them, he did save every one of them, you know? Yeah. So that, that's, that's father and son stuff, you know?

[01:48:59] Tyler: That's, [01:49:00] that's tough though, you know?

[01:49:02] Matt: Yeah.

[01:49:04] Trying to impress your dad I know. Who wears a

[01:49:06] Tyler: sword, you know, sounds like a pretty, pretty large footprint too, that he, he had Oh, yes. I mean, that would've been Oh, yes. Would've been hard to live up to that. I think, you know,

[01:49:19] Matt: Yes. And, and, but he was such a romantic in, in everything he did, and he was a lot of fun.

[01:49:25] And he spent a lot of time with us, even though we were all, we were hunters when we were young. Um, we were, he was an outdoorsman. Yeah. Uh, and he was, he was something rare in the, in the sixties, in, in the late sixties. He was a fitness buff. Ah, you know, he was, he was into health, food and taking care of himself, and he was, you know, he, he was a runner.

[01:49:45] He was very physical and, you know, that's what really, you know, set. Sam and I, at a very early age, we were, we were very physical. My mother was a, a, a state, uh, champion of, um, Connecticut. She was a [01:50:00] state champion swimmer. My uncle was a bronze medalist and in, in, in, uh, in the Olympics as a swimmer. And he was on the squad and he knew Duke, Kano Moku and Wow.

[01:50:10] You know, so this, this physicality that, that my brother and I have had this athleticism. It was obviously in our d n a, you know, and that's one thing that I, that I really respect was the, the activity of our family. You know? Um, I remember my mother saying, an, an active family never goes to the hospital.

[01:50:30] And it was true. We, we were so active from dawn to dusk, physically out there doing stuff, you know, that, um, that, that, that, that athleticism, you know, was, was, was something that I inherited that was really important. Did

[01:50:45] Tyler: he, um, Ever get to, did he live long enough to get to see your volunteer work and your, your emergency rescue work that you've done?

[01:50:55] Matt: Um, not real. No. I don't [01:51:00] think he'd be interested either. No. It just, the path was, the path was set. You know, I, I was, I was this eccentric son, you know, and I know I, and he was, you know, he was disappointed in my navy, uh, in my navy adventure as, uh, as I was, I was so happy to get out. I just, it's the best thing that ever happened to me.

[01:51:21] But, um, I was What did your

[01:51:22] Tyler: brother say? What did Sam say? What you were like, I'm going into the Navy, by the way.

[01:51:28] Matt: Well, he's used to me being insane, you know, and, and being eccentric. And he just said, go as hard as you can. Nice. I, I, I'll never forget it, he said he had tears in his eyes when I was getting on the bus, but he just said, go hard, man.

[01:51:41] Go as hard as you can. I said, I will. I love it. And I wasn't hard enough, not by a long shot. It's,

[01:51:49] Tyler: it's, yeah, no,

[01:51:53] Matt: yeah, just wasn't my path. I was very happy to get back to my surfing life. And it took that experience in the Navy for me to [01:52:00] recommit. And I've been committed ever since. Never looked back.

[01:52:03] Tyler: Now, let's talk wave pools here, right?

[01:52:08] Sure. Mm-hmm. Allentown, Pennsylvania. Yes. 1985.

[01:52:14] Matt: Is it 5 85?

[01:52:17] Tyler: How did this contest come about? 'cause uh, it, it seems so surreal when you think about it.

[01:52:27] Matt: It was, and it was the genius child of, um, Ian Cairns and, and Peter Townend, of course, because they wanted to bring the, uh, the Australian energy of surfing, which was intoxicating to all of us Americans when we'd go to Australia and there'd be, um, surfing on the, on the six o'clock news and mm-hmm.

[01:52:47] On billboards and, uh, surfers were, you know, national heroes. And so we're like, this is where we wanna live, you know? Um, and so they tried to bring that energy over here. And again, it was the mistake [01:53:00] of trying to take surfing and shoehorn it into the mainstream, you know, um, this, this, this wave pool. I'll, I'll tell you something.

[01:53:10] One of my favorite stories is about Tom Carroll. Yeah. When we were all standing in the shallows, all of us were standing in the shallows before they turned it on. And I was standing on the pantheon of Gods, you understand? I mean, Gary Kerin, mark Acal, Lupo the Ho, um, you know, Tom Ca, Tom Carroll standing next to me, Shane Harran, the whole, everyone was there.

[01:53:31] Right. And they turned this thing on Kach ka ka. And they told us it, first of all, when we showed up, the pool was about the size of a backyard pool. That's crazy. And then when the, when the waves came and, and, and they lapped in at about Shin High. Okay. We were like, oh my God. And Tom Carroll at that point was our fearless leader.

[01:53:55] Yeah. Right. He, he was a world champion. He was Tom Carroll. He was a [01:54:00]tremendous force. He was a force of nature and we're all complaining and bitching and moaning and doing this and that. And finally I turned to Tom and he was being real quiet. And I turned to Tom Carroll and I said, Tom, what are we gonna do?

[01:54:12] Right? And he looked at me, he said, well, I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna win this contest. And, and he went out and did.

[01:54:24] Tyler: Now, how, how was it pitched to you? What was everyone's expectation? How is this pitched?

[01:54:31] Matt: It was the miracle. This, this was, this was gonna be it. This was gonna bring surfing to the masses.

[01:54:36] This, this wave pool thing was gonna bring surfing to the mainstream. And boy money was gonna pour in and, you know, all the huge sponsorships. And this was gonna be the revolution, man. This was gonna be it. That's how it was pitched. It was insane. Insane.

[01:54:51] Tyler: Did they say, Right. We have this wave pool and it produces really good waves, or Of course.

[01:54:58] Matt: Yeah, of course. Well, it wasn't, [01:55:00] it wasn't even operational until we got there. We didn't see any, we just, we just saw this pool and the plans and all this kind of stuff, and, and that's what it was. And we showed up and it was barely surfable. But I'll tell you what, the greatest surface on Earth took it on and, and surfed and competed and made it work, you know?

[01:55:17] But I mean, it was pretty much like, uh, you know, new Smyrna on a bad day, you know? You know.

[01:55:24] Tyler: How was it getting there? Like, I heard, I've heard all sorts of crazy stories where people had to fly into New York City and other places and then figure out how to get to Allentown, which is, you know, not always the easiest either, you know, you

[01:55:40] Matt: mean, you mean how do you get to the bicycle manufacturing capital of the United States?

[01:55:44] Yes. Is that what you're asking?

[01:55:45] Tyler: Yes, that's what I'm asking. Not by bicycle. I assume.

[01:55:48] Matt: It was really strange. And don't, don't forget, I mean, it was men, it's a Mennonite County. Yeah. It, it's a dry county. So we would be there and there would be the little horse and buggies and, and the, and the [01:56:00] Mennonites and Wow.

[01:56:00] And, and the Amish and the whole thing. And we were just looking around just where in the hell are we, you know, like we're a bunch of surfers and you know, what do you do between. When, when the thing break, it was constantly breaking down and where do we go? And, you know, we all went crazy and started like going down the water slide, standing up on body boards and stuff.

[01:56:21] You know, we were like, we, we wanted to surf, you know, it was, it was really wild. Now I was there as a journalist. This is post my professional surfing career. You know, I was there as a, I was covering it as a journalist, but still we all wanted to surf and do all that. And it, it was, it was really crazy. And there was all this talk about, um, freshwater boards, you know, like salt water is more buoyant, you know, it's salt, you know, we got, we, we, we need to have our boards thicker and all that kind of stuff.

[01:56:47] And I remember Al Merrick, you know, made a board in 24 hours and shipped it out to Tom Kern. And that was a big, you know, that was a big deal, you know, like, wow, you know, we're gonna, it's, it's a new world. And it was just, it was [01:57:00] silly, you know? It was, the waves just weren't there. How is

[01:57:03] Tyler: the structure of the heat too?

[01:57:05] You know, like you,

[01:57:07] Matt: same old thing, man on man. Same old thing with judges. Same old thing, you know? It was just, you know, who got a better wave? You know? And, uh, well, I mean, and there was no, and there was no priority. There was hassling because you wanted the third wave. Yeah. Right. When it would go kaka chunk, ka chunk, you'd want that third wave.

[01:57:27] And so, man, you're Tom, you know, Derek Ho and Tom Carroll out there throwing elbows for that third wave, man. Wow. 'cause there

[01:57:33] Tyler: would be no buoy, you know, at that time. Really. No, no, no,

[01:57:37] Matt: no. It was amazing. And, and, and when it would start to peter out in the shallow end, Derek Ho would grab the side of the pool and start running himself along to try to stay with the wave and stuff.

[01:57:46] It, it was just, it was outrageous. It was just an outrageous experience. What,

[01:57:52] Tyler: um, I want to hear how you won the hot bun, Mr. Hot Buns competition. Oh,

[01:57:58] Matt: that's easy. That's fun [01:58:00] now, okay, so it's a dry county, right? Yeah. So, um, at night there'd be these parties in, in these giant barns, you know, these huge, like, those huge, um, Amish barns.

[01:58:10] And there was one that was just on the other, um, it, it was on the side of the dry county, meaning no alcohol. So what the locals would do, all the, all the young people, they'd get these giant, um, ice chests and they'd go across the state line and fill 'em up full of booze and bring them back to the barn.

[01:58:29] And you sat on them like, that was your seating. And there'd be crazy, loud music and, and it would be a big dance hall. Okay. And the booze is you, you brought yourself and, you know, you paid 10 bucks to get in or whatever. And so there we were. And, and in, and, you know, it was a, it was a real social scene for these young people of Allentown.

[01:58:48] And um, it just so happened that one of the night, one of the nights that we were there, they were having the finals of the female, uh, T g F Friday's. No, I think [01:59:00] it was the Hooters, um, hot buns contest with women. It was for women. And they had the finalists there. You know, they had Jade and Crystal and Anastasia, you know, you know what I mean?

[01:59:12] And they were all a bunch of strippers, of course, you know. And then they, you know, had extraordinary figures. And I might've had a little beer in me. And, uh, I thought, you know what, you know, I, these girls are dominating. I'm gonna play a prank on all these surfers here. They'll get a big kick out of this.

[01:59:27] So I went backstage. I went backstage, um, I stuffed this is, I, I took the local newspaper that actually had a picture of Tommy Kern surfing on the cover. And I watered it up and I put it down the front of my pants. Okay. I put it down the front of my bev of my little brief underwear and I was backstage and they thought I was just, you know, covering the event or something.

[01:59:50] So out goes Jade and she dances and out goes, you know, crystal and out goes Anastasia, right? And what I realized was that they were gonna pick the winner [02:00:00] by the, um, applause meter. Okay? And I thought, oh, I got this. I've got this man, I've got this. Okay. I stripped down to my underwear with that big newspaper stuffed down the front of my pants and I.

[02:00:14] Danced out on stage as an extra, as an extra, um, dancer. And the crowd went nuts. Itwasn't even close. Okay. They, and I was moving and grooving and the girls were horrified. You know, they were like, guy, oh my God, they wanted to kill me. They were like taking the combs outta their hair and trying to slash me and stuff.

[02:00:37] And I was just dancing around avoiding them and you know, I turned around and wiggled my little butt, you know, and the whole thing, just like they were doing. And I did, I did like their sexy moves and stuff. And it wasn't even close, man. The crowd just almost brought the roof down and they had to give it to me.

[02:00:55] And the dj, who, who was doing the, the local radio DJ who was doing this, was really [02:01:00] into the spirit of it. Yeah. And that's how it happened. And that's how I won as much money as the semi-finalists in the

[02:01:06] Tyler: That's amazing.

[02:01:08] Matt: In the surf, in the surf contest. That's how I won as much as the semifinalists. It was fantastic.

[02:01:17] It was one, one of my great moments. You know,

[02:01:20] Tyler: what, what were the people of Allentown and their thoughts of the professional surfers, particularly the Australians must have, they must have left quite an impression. People, well,

[02:01:31] Matt: particularly with the young, um, I will say with the, okay, think about, um, a small town, you know, basically a, a small town attitude.

[02:01:39] And then you have, you know, 30 of, of the most handsome, well-built young men in the world show up, right? Mm-hmm. So the girls all went crazy. It was like a rockstar stuff. And, uh, you know, there was a lot of liaisons and, um, so there was that, um, the newspaper thought it was, um, very novel, you know, so there was daily, there was a [02:02:00] daily thing in the newspaper and mm-hmm.

[02:02:01] You know, we did a lot of radio shows and all that, and everybody was really in the spirit of it. And they, they just thought it was great because here we were surfing in, in a pool that, for the local people was something that they were just gonna go, you know, bring their kids and, and, and like the local plunge.

[02:02:17] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And somehow, you know, we turned it into this, this, this surfing thing. And so, uh, the, the, the people of Allentown were behind it a hundred percent. They just thought it was very clever and, and, and very novel. Um, the young people embraced us. They thought that was great. Um, I don't know what the Amish thought, you know, uh, you know, I mean, they don't have phones, so I don't know quite what they thought, but, um, get

[02:02:41] Tyler: in their head.

[02:02:41] Matt. Get in their head.

[02:02:43] Matt: Yeah. I, I, you know, now, now that you think about it, I'd like to go back and live with the Amish for five days. Yeah. But, um, we, um, no, we were very well accepted. We were like a bunch of rock stars and, uh, in the end it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of griping 'cause of the waves and all that, but it was a lot of fun and, [02:03:00] you know, um, Ian Karens and Peter Town and boy was their heart in the right place, man.

[02:03:04] They were totally committed to propo promoting professional surfing, uh, in, in the United States, and they put their heart and soul into it. So, uh, we all came away from it shaking our heads. Um, I imagine you would feel the same way, uh, after having gone to the moon. Yeah. You know, and you get back and splash down and they, and they pick you up and you get back on the aircraft carrier and you're just kinda shaking your head going, where was, where was I?

[02:03:32] You know, like,

[02:03:33] Tyler: do, do you, well one, like then how did that experience influence your, uh, consulting on the North Shore, the movie? Because

[02:03:44] Matt: it didn't really, I don't remember that. I'm, I, I don't recall that. And I do recall with the North Shore thing, I was asked like one or two questions. I wasn't really a, yeah, a big consultant in that.

[02:03:52] I, I was, I had no interest at that point. Um, how I had no interest.

[02:03:57] Tyler: How do you think it, it's, you know, [02:04:00] like that legacy though, because there were numerous other wave pool comps afterwards. But really it's funny how we now live in a world where it's totally viable. You know, it's, it's

[02:04:13] Matt: crazy, I guess that vision.

[02:04:16] I'm also a proponent of wave pools. I, I believe in them, and I always have, ever since I was a little kid, I, I, I would make, I'd go in small shore breaks and I'd make my own little reef out of like Coke cans filled with sand or anything I could find. And, you know, so I've been a, a real proponent of it. And I love that the, um, the dream that came alive because of Kelly Slater once again.

[02:04:41] I mean, if you read, um, the seduction of Kelly Slater, there's that one question where I say, what are you gonna do with all the money? And here he is, 17 years old and he goes, I don't know, build a wave pool for me and my friends, I guess. And he did. You know, so the evolution of the wave pool, um, I think is, is, is [02:05:00] extraordinary and, pardon me, um, it, it's been solved.

[02:05:04] We have them, they're viable. People are doing errors, getting barrels, doing cutbacks, big off it. It's happened, you know, and so I, I'm a believer in them. I think that, uh, you know, I think they're a great amusement park ride.

[02:05:19] Tyler: Has Kelly invited you to his pool yet? Oh,

[02:05:23] Matt: sure, sure. Have you gone? I haven't been there yet, but, uh Oh, that's an open invitation, of course.

[02:05:27] You know. Um, but I haven't been there, um, basically because of my life here in Indonesia, but, um, or I'll get there someday.

[02:05:36] Tyler: Have you, what, what I look forward, what wave pools have you surfed of the new technology? Have you had a chance to sample any.

[02:05:43] Matt: No, no, I've surfed all the old stuff, you know? Yeah. All, all, all, all, all the crappy ones.

[02:05:49] But I've never had, um, like the s Snowdonia or, you know, the, the, the Waco or the, uh, I have not had that, that experience yet, and I can't wait to do [02:06:00] it. I think it'd be great, you know? Yeah. Especially with my, my surfing as it's evolved, you know, now that I'm at my age, of course, I'm on mid lengths and, you know, I'm not, you know, ripping roundhouse cutbacks and, you know, doing Kelly Slater off the lips or anything.

[02:06:13] But, um, I, I would be, I would be fascinated and I, I can't wait for the day. I think it'd be great. I also think that the wave pools are the only viable Olympic, uh, um, venue for surfing in the Olympics. Yeah. The ocean doesn't work. It just doesn't work. You can't schedule it. Bottom line. And the other thing that, that the Olympics need to be a, uh, even playing field.

[02:06:37] Yeah. And the way I would do it is I'd have two Kelly Slater wave pools side by side, so that you wouldn't have to wait between waves. One guy would take off and just like ski runs. Yeah. You know, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know? You know, and I believe that Olympic surfing in a wave pool is different than ocean surfing.

[02:06:56] Yes. You don't think I understand that. Yeah, of course I do. [02:07:00] But Olympic surfing on an even playing field should be done in with the Kelly Slater model with two of them side by side. So you could schedule it for broadcast and it's an even playing field. So I'm a believer in wave pools.

[02:07:16] Tyler: See, I would, I would di I would disagree.

[02:07:19] I don't think it should be the Slater Wave pool. I think the Waco one is more viable. And I think the issue with the Slater wave pool, it's beautiful, it's amazing, but it's monotonous. And watching the contest there can be really slow. And it's not the in-between even, it's just the same, same, I think Waco, that Waco style pool, random, random wave patterns that they should do.

[02:07:48] So not everyone is the same actually, and have may, maybe it could be a rotation, but I think there should be some sort of variable element to it of [02:08:00] luck, because surfing is a lot of luck too. And I think that is a great thing about it and it, and can make it more exciting and fun. And I think there should be paddle battles still.

[02:08:11] You know, if you pull off one of those waves and or you fall and you could get back in time and sit in priority, be interesting I think. I don't know. That's, that's kind of my

[02:08:21] Matt: thought. Well, I hear, I hear what you're, I hear what you're saying and um, of course it's more conducive to aerials and that sort of thing.

[02:08:28] Yeah. Um, but I think my, my issue with the Waco uh, technology is that the wave is so short. Um, and it's so

[02:08:39] Tyler: small, not the one in Brazil. Have you seen that one?

[02:08:42] Matt: Yeah. Yep. They, they're getting better. They're getting better. That's crazy. That's all I would say. And then the other way I look at it is like, I would see it as ice skating, you know?

[02:08:50] Yeah. Ice skating is a program and you've gotta do, you know, the double axle and triple this. Love that. And it's something that you know, and off you and round you [02:09:00] go. And so you have a run at it. Yes. And you have a run at it. Um, now I think, I think the reason that the, uh, Kelly Wave Pool contest, you know, WSS L contest, I think the reason why it's so monotonous and boring to people is that they've got the format all wrong.

[02:09:21] Yeah. It's so complex and weird. Yeah. What I would do is I'd set it up like tennis. You get one right. And you get one left and it's the highest score wins and that's it. And you go to the next ladder. And if these guys the best in the world cannot be like ice skaters where you get one shot at this thing.

[02:09:40] Yeah. You go out for your gold. You know, if you can't handle that pressure or, or if people say, oh, well they're gonna surf conservatively, then you don't belong there and you don't get invited. Yeah. You either uncork this and go as hard as you can on that one wave and take as many chances as you can and you either ride [02:10:00] successfully or not.

[02:10:01] That's what it is. A bunch of sissies. You know what I mean? So what I would do is it, I would have a ladder from the very beginning, you get a right and a left, and that's it. You get one ride, you know? Yes. You can warm up. Yes. La, la, la, la, la. You guys are supposed to be the best in the world. Mm-hmm. Just like ice skaters.

[02:10:19] Just like downhill skiers. Yeah. You get one Olympic shot at this thing, and then people would love to watch that contest. Yes. It'd be over in a short afternoon.

[02:10:27] Tyler: It, I agree. I also like the idea of having, um, you know, required maneuvers on the wave that you have to do, you know, or we get, I think that really, I agree, would help in creating excitement and a little bit of grip.

[02:10:44] Like, oh, he's gotta get that turn in. He's gotta get this in. And I think that would add to the anxiety that you'd get watching it, which would be fun, you know, that tension that I think is needed. Yes. You know? I

[02:10:55] Matt: agree. Uh, compulsory maneuvers. Yeah.

[02:10:58] Tyler: So, yes. So when you tell [02:11:00] Kelly, you know, just, uh, you know, give, give me a little credit there too, you know, that's all.

[02:11:04] Sure,

[02:11:05] Matt: So I'm, I'm a proponent of wave pools without question.

[02:11:08] Tyler: So, Matt, uh, this has been like super indulgent for me and really enjoyable. I really appreciate your time. Uh, you know, we've two plus hours here. Uh, I'm gonna let it all hang out and Good. I really, I really enjoyed this. This was so much fun. And, uh, thank you for indulging me with all of my questions and, and curiosities and nerdiness of this.

[02:11:38] Um, it really, really was super fun. Um,

[02:11:42] Matt: well, Tyler, I agree a hundred percent and it was so easy for me. I didn't even know it was two hours because I feel a kindred spirit. You, you're passionate about surfing, you're romantic about it, you understand it, you're informed. Um, so may I say that it was a real pleasure for me and I'm very, very [02:12:00] proud to have been on your show.

[02:12:01] Tyler: It's an honor for me. Now. I'm getting off the clipped. Got pil. Um, well, where can our listeners get your book and where can they find you?

[02:12:14] Matt: Oh, it's easy. Um, you can find it at, um, DeAngelo Publications and, um, it's also on, um, Amazon. Awesome. Um, uh, I, I would suggest getting it from DeAngelo Publications only because, um, Amazon takes like 60% or something, you know?

[02:12:34] Yeah. So I wanna, I wanna please the publishers. You know, I'm not, I, this is not for money. I haven't done this for money. I didn't put this book together so I could make a bunch of money. Um, both Kelly and I discussed that. I just said, we both said, look, it's, it's not about the money. It's about getting these cave paintings down, getting them in, in, in a literary form, uh, that you can pick up and read as [02:13:00] we've discussed.

[02:13:00] You know, it, it, it's not about the money, but if you want to get it, go to DeAngelo Publications or go to Amazon and thank you for letting me mention that,

[02:13:08] Tyler: Tyler. We'll, we'll put a link in our, uh, in the show notes. Of course. And funny enough, Matt, you know, I bought a copy and then my brother ordered me a copy as well.

[02:13:20] Thank you. So I had had two copies, which is been great. And, uh, good. Leave

[02:13:26] Matt: one in the bathroom. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

[02:13:30] Tyler: But, uh, listeners, this is truly a really enjoyable book. Um, for anyone who's just a surf nerd or, or a surf nerd in your life. This is a great gift. It's gonna be a great holiday gift. Um, for many of us who have been surfing for a long time.

[02:13:47] This will also bring back a lot of memories 'cause you'll read these. Profiles that you probably read and read 'em with new eyes, which I think has been really enjoyable for me to go back to these pieces and, [02:14:00] and see it again, and, and have it, have more understanding. Maybe when I was younger reading it, a lot of things went over my head, which is now amazing to see it in this collection.

[02:14:10] So definitely go check it out. And, and what's your Instagram that they can go, go follow you on and follow all

[02:14:16] Matt: the other stuff you're doing? I think it's Matt, uh, I think it's Matt George InDEEP, something like that. Yeah. So go, go follow. I don't do a lot of, I don't do a lot, I don't do a lot of social media, but, um, yeah, there's some stuff on there.

[02:14:27] Um, I, uh, yeah, I, I I, I would like to really get this, um, into, physically, into people's hands, you know, rather than digitally. So yes, and that's where I

[02:14:37] Tyler: stand and uh, you know, and when you need help with the audio book, let me know, you know, do a little voiceover for you, you know. Sure. It'd be great. Although your voice is quite spectacular, you know, so, I mean, I can't

[02:14:51] Matt: wait for the audio book.

[02:14:52] I think it's

[02:14:52] Tyler: gonna be fantastic. Can't wait. And listeners, thank you all for listening and you can of course, uh, go to, um, [02:15:00] swell season surf radio.com and you can also check us out on Instagram and, uh, we'll check you all down the line soon and go buy a copy of this book.