Lord Bords with Rachel Lord

[00:00:00] The Swell Season Podcast is recorded by the New Stand Studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan and is distributed by the Swell Season Surf Radio Network.

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[00:01:17] Tyler: Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer.

[00:01:24] Rachel Lord bought her first surfboard at the age of 29. It was a 200 used fine line. A She took it straight to El Porto and proceeded to put in her time and take her licks. She was told over and over that you can't get good after your teens at surfing. She didn't know if she would ever be a competent surfer, let alone a competitive and standout surfer.

[00:01:50] But she was determined. And I can attest that from the past week's, uh, fish fry that we had, Rachel Lord is a certified talent [00:02:00] in the water, incredibly nimble, but with power, when she throws herself into her turns, style oozes from every hand gesture and fancy footwork. Rachel carries the confidence of someone born on a surfboard.

[00:02:14] She grew up in Colorado with a taste for speed, a competitive skier in her youth, Once Rachel finished high school, she threw herself into her art. She learned the craft of sculpting and painting at RISD, Rhode Island School of Design, for those of you who don't know, where she graduated in 2008 and was convinced that her future was to be a star in the art world.

[00:02:38] After putting in a long stint in New York, she eventually made her way out West in 2011. But it wasn't until 2015 that she felt the overwhelming sense of needing a change in her life. She was overworked, strung out, joyless, and felt like her artwork had reflected that. She had been deferring her enjoyment of life in the moment and neglecting [00:03:00] her physical body.

[00:03:01] It was then, when she discovered surfing. And then fast forward to year three of her surfing journey where she sought to merge her compartmentalized selves with Her surfy self and her artsy self. And that's when surfboard shaping entered the picture and she realized she could fold all of her passions into itself.

[00:03:22] She had been seeking a way to join her art career and artistic practices with her surfing so that she could, instead of being all these different boxes and the boards that was, and the boards shaping, that was her way to bring all of her passions into one. Uh, they're scru uh, sculptural objects, they're painted objects, and they're physical tools.

[00:03:42] And when she started making boards, it was this beautiful chemical marriage. And I am so stoked to have as our guest on this episode of the Swell Season Surf Podcast, Rachel Lord of Lord Surfboards. Rachel, welcome to the show.

[00:03:59] Rachel: Thank you, Tyler. [00:04:00] I'm going to cry. You really did your of research and, uh, did me well with that introduction.

[00:04:05] Thank you so much.

[00:04:06] Tyler: My pleasure. I mean, it's the least I can do. You're coming all the way in here into midtown, you know, which is a bit of a hell journey. The least I can do is do a little research, you know,

[00:04:15] Rachel: an exciting and traumatizing part of town. As I was saying before, I, in a different life, used to work in merchant services in this area.

[00:04:22] And it's really bringing me back. The culture hasn't changed a bunch. You're having

[00:04:25] Tyler: that physical reaction to it. It's making you anxious. I'm just

[00:04:30] Rachel: feeling late. Like I'm going to get yelled at.

[00:04:32] Tyler: You're like, I'm feeling late. I need to be somewhere. I need to grab lunch really quick and eat while I'm walking.

[00:04:38] Rachel: I'm in the, I'm in the Pret corridor.

[00:04:40] Tyler: Yes. I love Pret too, which is hilarious because it's grab and go. It's easy and quick, you know. Can't

[00:04:46] Rachel: hate.

[00:04:47] Tyler: I wanted to start actually our conversation because, um, I've been doing my research and I heard you are a bit of a sci fi buff.

[00:04:57] Rachel: I am a big sci fi fan. I pretty much [00:05:00] exclusively read sci fi if I'm reading a book.

[00:05:02] Yeah. Um, I really love a plot driven narrative.

[00:05:07] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[00:05:07] Rachel: Um, and I really can't stand like a sort of shoegazing character development.

[00:05:12] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[00:05:13] Rachel: Um, I'm I've most recently been a huge fan of Greg Egan. I normally pick like one author at a time. And then just

[00:05:21] Tyler: go deep.

[00:05:21] Rachel: Go deep because I find once you get into the narrative style of, like, of the way that one author will build a story, it's much easier to enter the next one so you don't have that hump to get over.

[00:05:31] Totally.

[00:05:32] Tyler: Totally.

[00:05:33] Rachel: So, yeah, I love, uh, I love science fiction, and I love thinking that way about what I do, too, and projecting craft into the future, thinking about life in that kind of a context.

[00:05:47] Tyler: I love that. Well, I mean, I'm a, I'm a I like sci fi, I'm a bit of a fantasy sci fi, like Star Wars is my jam, you know, type of thing, so I'm always thinking about future, but [00:06:00] also, uh, kind of, I love the fact that in sci fi it disguises so much of our today in it too, and it's a great way to think of the future.

[00:06:10] Some of our problems being remedied in the future, uh, how it could be remedied or also just the future that that doesn't have some of the issues we have today or they explore those and they use the sci fi as the vehicle, which I think is great. And I would love to see a sci fi surfing type of program come out.

[00:06:28] There have been some some great attempts. Uh, there used to be these great comic books, uh, that, uh, the Paskowitz's used to come out with. But I was curious then, like, what does surfing look like in the future for you? If you were to imagine a sci fi, surfy future?

[00:06:44] Rachel: Well, I feel like we're on the verge of that future now.

[00:06:46] I mean, even just thinking about the wave pool and what that leap represents and how we exist in a world that has virtual and augmented reality. What does that mean for surfing? Hmm. The pod. Can these surf [00:07:00] communities exist online in a way we're actually doing the sport in an augmented reality?

[00:07:04] Certainly.

[00:07:05] Tyler: Could we

[00:07:05] Rachel: be shaping in VR and then sending it to a CNC machine? Absolutely. Um, I think these things are right there in front of us and, uh, they bring up some really deep questions. Interesting ideas like what does localism look like in AR? Do you still choose to program crappy days? when you have a perfect wave pool and the possibilities for the board industry I think in Involving world technologically and in an industry that looks back at itself in this sort of or a Boris of like, well, what did the first guys do in the fifties and sixties, you know, and as far as it pertains to the surf industry, um, I think that we have a lot to learn from sci fi and, uh, to keep ourselves flexible about the possibilities of how a surf, [00:08:00] how a surfboard could be made.

[00:08:03] Tyler: I like to imagine that, like personally, like I think. I think we have, uh, limited ourself to the construction of surfboards. Like, there's so many more ways to explore that we have yet to even try. Like, I, I always think about obviously the materials, but I'm pretty excited about seeing all the 3D printed boards being coming out right now, actually.

[00:08:26] Like, I wrote an article maybe 10 years ago now about the, the coming of 3D printing and surfboards. 3D printing. The possibilities that you can have with that as well, like you can control flex so much more if you like, they have, they're just scratching the surface, but like, imagine a honeycombed shaped 3d printed surfboard, but the midsection is thicker honeycombs is less flex and you can control where that flex actually happens, like

[00:08:53] Rachel: a pendo flex idea.

[00:08:54] Tyler: Totally.

[00:08:56] Rachel: Yeah. You know, I'm in some ways, [00:09:00] uh, limited by my intense love for the act of foiling. Mm

[00:09:04] Tyler: hmm.

[00:09:04] Rachel: Um. in a way that's what, uh, drives my majority, the majority of my hand shaping, uh, not that it's necessarily a better process or faster process. I just love it so much. So in some ways I'm going to always be limited by the fact that I just physically love making surfboards, um, in a way that can hold you back from scaling and, you know, scale is kind of the scalability is kind of the marker of whether or not something is a good business or not.

[00:09:33] Unfortunately, like, uh, I'm not in this to make money because I love making surfboards, but, uh, the potential is astronomical and the ways that we can learn from other industries, uh, and how to, how to not hold ourselves back by historical precedent.

[00:09:53] Tyler: It's interesting you, you mentioned like foiling and, and how you really enjoy adding the foil [00:10:00] to the surfboard and, and creating that, that feel I was, I was reading somewhere about how you.

[00:10:05] Yeah. used to make these sculptures of like sand dunes, I think, and used to love doing that foil. And then you were found out that you discovered that you could do this with surfboards even. And there's got to be something, something gratifying about that and shaping that. I don't think it'll ever go away.

[00:10:23] You know, I don't think handshaping will ever go away. I think what'll happen is it'll probably become more specialized, maybe, or, uh, maybe it'll be like, you know, it's an art form instead, and maybe surfboard handshape boards will be treated as an art as opposed to a production. And it's interesting, like, so I was just reading also this SJ article about the last of the mass production shapers that are starting, uh, You know, they're all starting to retire or stop shaping and, you know, we probably will never again see someone shape like 000 surfboards in [00:11:00] a lifetime because you don't need to do that production type of work.

[00:11:04] How do you, how do you deal with that? How do you see that? Like, do you feel like we should be holding on to past presidents or do you feel that we should be embracing the future of things?

[00:11:19] Rachel: Well, I feel like humanity is constantly evolving in each generation, you know, you toss the stone forward for the next one to throw forward, I kind of feel like with the amount of information that all shapers have accessible to them, you don't need to do 2000 boards before you hit a point where you're competent anymore.

[00:11:37] There's enough. influence around you to know what's good, what's bad. I think we can learn a little bit faster and at the end of the day, a surfboard is a toxic object. Um, toxic for the shaper, toxic for the planet. And, um, I, I dislike the idea that I need to mow through thousands of boards to get to something that is decent.

[00:11:59] I'd [00:12:00] rather put in that energy into one and make sure it leaves perfect. Um, also I'm smaller in stature. It's, you know, It's just a fact. I don't think I have 30, 000 hand shapes in me. Um, particularly with the way that I shape, um, being very physical and it's physically demanding. And I think that a good way to incorporate the technology of CNC is, I mean, of hand shaping and its relationship to CNC is in prototyping.

[00:12:30] Um, and I do think we're at a point now where you can develop, do the research by hand. And then go to your scans, go to your CNC. That's more the way I prefer it. I don't really program. I do CNC rarely, but I think it's wonderful for standard standardization, which is really important if you're trying to make a performance or a long board that performs in a certain way.

[00:12:52] In particular, that is my focus. It's not all I do, but as somebody who defaults to a log pretty much every day, [00:13:00] um, it's what I'm the most passionate about. And the smallest tweaks on a board like that make a huge difference. Um, so the CNC is a really valuable tool when it comes to understanding things like how your rockers interacting with your concave, how that works with the tail kick, what.

[00:13:16] Rail Apex is working for what conditions and the CNC is really valuable in that but there's always going to be a place for hand shaping In that relationship. And so I find it really freeing that the shaper is not bound to being Being the computer. It reminds me of like a WH Auden poem that I can only remember the title of which is I'm not a camera.

[00:13:42] Tyler: Yeah,

[00:13:43] Rachel: and I think often I am NOT a computer Um So, I am, I am, I am, I don't know, I'm, uh, I find it freeing to know that as, uh, my hand may develop arthritis, you know, I've gotten nerve damage in [00:14:00] hand before, I've been injured a lot in the last couple years, and it can really take it out of you, and the idea that Um, if I'm not in my same physical shape I am now, which is probably my peak, that I'm not going to be able to continue to make surfboards in the same way that I can now in my late thirties.

[00:14:19] Um, technology, the technology is there to help extend the life of the shaper. So, um, I love it. I welcome it all. Um,

[00:14:30] Tyler: yeah. All right. Got an idea. Hmm. way of teaching how to shape, put on some like augmented gloves or some sort of like robotic gloves on someone. And then you're like kind of wearing your virtual gloves.

[00:14:46] And so someone just learns the hand movements in the muscle memory. While they're shaping. I

[00:14:51] Rachel: love that idea. How cool is that? I love that also so much more than having somebody in my physical space using my planer. I

[00:14:58] Tyler: know, right? Like, you can do [00:15:00] online lessons. I love it. And like, let me guide you through this.

[00:15:02] See how you feel that, right? Oh, that's what we're looking for. There's no reason

[00:15:06] Rachel: we can't adopt the paint programs that exist now to instead be a planer. Totally. I mean, it would totally translate, I think.

[00:15:12] Tyler: How cool would it be to have a blank? That's like shape by numbers, and as you shape off parts, the next number is revealed.

[00:15:20] This is

[00:15:20] Rachel: genius.

[00:15:21] Tyler: Right?

[00:15:21] Rachel: I love this. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:23] Tyler: Like, I think that'd be hilarious. Like, I, I just think, like, that's what I was saying. Like, I think there are so many ways we have not explored surfboard shaping and business models, too. The model is, you know, Oh,

[00:15:37] Rachel: absolutely. Again, it's, it's navel gazing and it's backward looking.

[00:15:41] It's a, it's a snake eating its own tail. Um, which is why I think in some ways I've been freed by not having a mentor or teacher because I haven't had a way of doing programmed into me. Um, and

[00:15:58] Tyler: that's all right. I mean, it's, [00:16:00] that's the thing I want to get. I want to get to that actually. Like you, not only did you start shaping late, but you came to surfing really late. I think on, and I wanted to ask this actually, like, you kinda like, got thrown into the surf culture, surf world, right? Like, you started rather late, and I'm curious, like, your thought on, like, coming into the surf world and seeing all the archaic, uh, Uh, you know, rules and, and cultural norms and kind of seeing that it hasn't fully caught up with certain society even in the business models are kind of broken and it's kind of always looking backwards and very rarely looking forwards.

[00:16:41] And I was curious, like that outside perspective coming into surfing, like what was your initial reaction to surf culture as a whole and then shaping culture as well?

[00:16:53] Rachel: I think from the start I wanted so badly to be a part of it and not feel like an outsider, uh, that, [00:17:00] you know, when I, when I first started, I would see people all knowing each other, having so much fun, feeling so comfortable, and the feeling when you're a beginner and you're just getting to know the scene and the culture, you feel like you're constantly on eggshells and you have to kind of do this cosplay of what you think A surfer in the scene is, um, and I was, it wasn't really actually until I came here on this trip.

[00:17:25] Cause I haven't been to the city in probably six years. Like you said, I used to live here, but I didn't live here as a surfer. And it wasn't until coming back that I realized I've kind of been doing like a California cosplay for the last, you know, like, uh, eight years, uh, how hard I've

[00:17:45] Kind of coming up for air on that and realizing that I can be a bit more of myself now that I've established myself a little bit more and I'm not trying to just fit in. Um, politically, I'm sure we'll get to it. The baseline conversation as far as, um, [00:18:00] cultural issues, political, social, and social justice issues is in a much different place than maybe, uh, the benchmark of the art world.

[00:18:10] scene that I came from. So it's a big gulf, which has been a really, really interesting position to be thrust in because I never considered myself a feminist as an artist. I never considered myself like an advocate for anyone's rights, you know, like let alone, you know, gender diversity and trans rights or, you know, just, you know, Whatever it ends up being, I was never that voice.

[00:18:34] It was never the content of my work. Um, but in surfing and surf culture in particular, the surf culture I come from at the moment, which is like Southern California surf culture, the baseline for where that conversation is, is in a much different place than what I'm used to. And it's one that I actually have to have with people who disagree with me.

[00:18:52] Um,

[00:18:53] Tyler: it's almost thrusted on you to share

[00:18:56] Rachel: space. And these are people that at the end of the day, you love and you share [00:19:00] this love for the ocean with and you have a, you have all these shared spaces. Like, you know, you don't have a choice for who's at Malibu that day. You don't really have a choice for who shows up at the surf contest or all these things.

[00:19:11] So you are put in a position where you actually have to have difficult conversations with people in a way where you hear each other. Um, and that's something that I hadn't really experienced before. It was. Uh, actually really needing to talk to people who I disagree with. And it's been really beneficial for me in all walks of, in all aspects of my life.

[00:19:29] It's had me examine who I am and my responses to things. And I've grown so much as a person as a result. It's really polished off the rough edges, um, Even in comparing where I am psychologically now in the city working versus where I was when I left. I'm such a ground, more grounded, happier person. And I can feel it and you know, I'm not having a panic attack when I'm on the subway.

[00:19:55] I'm not like getting angry when somebody talks to me. It's a, it's a different [00:20:00]experience and that is because of surfing.

[00:20:02] Tyler: Well, it, it, you know, the, the, the thing about surfing that I, I love is that we all have this one thing in common that we do appreciate and really, uh, have this. Regardless of where you stand politically or, or where you stand, you know, in a lot of things, we always have this baseline of surfing.

[00:20:21] That we can relate to each other to a certain extent on, but it also is, like you said, we have to engage with people that we don't normally, maybe, uh, if you live in a bubble or you, you know, do certain activities that are only of like a certain political mindset, like it. We have to force ourselves to talk to people and, you know, if at the very least communicate whether we're going left or right on a wave, let alone politically.

[00:20:47] Just calm and courtesy. Yeah, you know.

[00:20:51] Rachel: And I live in the land of rights.

[00:20:53] Tyler: Well, you, I mean, it must be though, like, then it must have been rather difficult. One, like, [00:21:00] Obviously, uh, you're, you're a female, so you're already, like, a bit of a, in a minority in the surf world to a certain extent, and then when it comes to surfboard shaping, you're in a real minority, and you're coming into this world that is Somewhat misogynist in many ways or has been a, a boys club for, for many.

[00:21:18] And I'm curious like how that, that's been, uh, in terms of your kind of integrating into the culture, has it been difficult? Has it, has it been, uh, enjoyable, even the process? I don't know. There have

[00:21:33] Rachel: aspect been aspects of it that are enjoyable. Um, I think the thing that, that bothers me even more than. A quote unquote boys club is the being forced into a girls club.

[00:21:44] Tyler: Mmm.

[00:21:45] Rachel: Um. I love so much the community of my peers, my, my women peers and shaping my, and it's, it's wonderful that there are actually quite a bit of us now, but this creation of a girls club in response to the [00:22:00] boys club, that it feels like the boys club is forcing. Me into makes me feel like I'm competing with the other female shapers for the one female shaper spot in any given opportunity.

[00:22:10] It creates attention within the women in the industry that like, we can't be there to support and share with each other. And there's a lot of the older guard of women in the industry who protect their space to be the only woman because it does feel like it's a token spot. So I resent that siloing. Um, yes, there is a boys club, um, and I think the places where it has reared its head for me was when I was getting my start.

[00:22:41] Um, it was very difficult for me to find a shop that would let me work my way up. So you always hear this narrative of like, I came in, I swept floors, I took my knocks, I came up the right way. But when people talk about this right way, that's not a way that is available to women.

[00:22:57] Tyler: Right.

[00:22:57] Rachel: And I'm sure that it's been available to [00:23:00] some.

[00:23:00] And there are places where I see it happening now. Maybe it's in the service of kind of like a DEI move, or maybe it's marketing. Um, and like, well, we'll develop this woman who can then, we can develop a shrink it pink it range around. But, um, I find that. In some ways I'm grateful because I, I didn't come up through sweeping and a lot of what I learned I did learn from dropping off boards at my glasser and what they want to share with me or, you know, being in proximity to it.

[00:23:33] But I haven't actually had the lessons. Um, and so, yeah, I kind of resent the idea of this right way to come up because it's not a way that's available to everyone.

[00:23:43] Tyler: Well, I mean, look at like, I mean, there's. In today's climate, like, not everyone around the world has access to shapers. That's the whole thing, too.

[00:23:54] I mean, and you look at, like, Ryan Loveless, who learned on YouTube, basically, shaping, you know? Like, [00:24:00] that's, I think, I think there's, you can't do it the right way if you're not in that area. The right way is if you come from

[00:24:09] Rachel: a multi generational surf family. And you came up by doing the respect dance to the right people holding the right views and took your knocks and waited around in the corner for somebody to come tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, it's your time because I've decided and you know, not everybody grew up by the ocean.

[00:24:25] Not everybody grew up in a surf community. It doesn't mean it's that gatekeeping will keep out some amazing people. I mean, If you've ever seen Ryan Lovelace shape on a live feed, it's actually, like, it's upsetting, I have to turn it off, watching him flip around, like, this plane, the planer, I'm like, oh man, this is like planer porn, I'm not doing that.

[00:24:46] But, you

[00:24:48] Tyler: know, it's, when you, the

[00:24:49] Rachel: gatekeeping really is what keeps it the Ouroboros.

[00:24:54] Tyler: Yeah,

[00:24:54] Rachel: and it's not that there isn't a place for it. You know, I'm also kind of in the like no new shapers Like, [00:25:00] you know, I get asked by a lot of people to teach them all the time And I am if somebody shows the promise and the interest and they're already tackling it and I can tell I'm not helping them in A vacuum.

[00:25:11] Tyler: Yeah,

[00:25:11] Rachel: I'm always down for that. But yeah, you know, they're There is a reason for some of the rules. It's just like the surf etiquette. Uh, it's, there's a place for some of it. Um, but

[00:25:28] with the internet and with the amount of shapers and everything out there, you can teach yourself now online. If you have the craftsmanship and you have the proclivity and you have the intuition for hydrodynamics, um, you have that relationship with materials and you're surfing. Um, it's accessible to you and nothing will improve you more as a surfer than, um, Making your own equipment.

[00:25:51] Um, so, I don't want to deny that experience to anyone. I want everyone to be the best surfer they can be so they can have the best surf experience they can have.

[00:25:58] Tyler: Yeah. [00:26:00] How has your ascendancy then been kind of, uh, received in the surf world? Have people become, you know, as you've gained a name for yourself and a good reputation and also your fucking surfing is amazing.

[00:26:14] Thank you. Like, it's hard and fast. to deny that. And so I'm curious, like, have, have you seen greater acceptance amongst some of your peers over time?

[00:26:24] Rachel: Well, I'm also in a much different position now than when I started.

[00:26:27] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:26:27] Rachel: Um, when I started, I was in a, I was a much different surfer

[00:26:34] Tyler: and

[00:26:34] Rachel: obviously a much different shaper.

[00:26:36] There's a lot you learn in a few years. I think I did in the beginning and until now, actually, I've actually, I've, I've had a lot of. Doors open for me because I'm a woman. I think I was able to make a name for myself quickly cause I started at the right time when people were looking for it and there weren't that many of us.

[00:26:57] So I'm not going to lie to say that doors have not been opened by [00:27:00] them being shut for so long. Um, but what I've had to, I think fight for is the quality of my work and how that's received because it is easy to make a name for yourself as a woman. The algorithm really loves. The planar porn from women, you know, a certain type of real making, um,

[00:27:24] Tyler: Is there, is there a fans only, uh, surfboard shaping?

[00:27:27] I'm sure

[00:27:28] Rachel: someone could do fantastic with an only fans, uh, with a quote unquote female shaper only fans. Um, but I've had to really, I felt like I need to be infallible in my craft. in order to be received as a shaper and not a female shaper. Um, and still to this day, I feel like there's a lot of people around me in my community who would rather not see my board.

[00:27:59] So they don't have to [00:28:00] acknowledge the quality of them because the beautiful thing about a board is it's objective. You put it in your hand, you feel the foil, you see the dimensions, you see the outline, you can ride it and know whether or not it works. And a good, A good surfer knowledgeable about their equipment and knowledgeable about the craft can look at a board and know if it's good and I do feel like I see a bit of like a certain people putting on blinders.

[00:28:23] I don't want to see this. Um, because if they do, then they have to acknowledge that it's possible for a woman to make a great board too. And it's not just like a woman's board. Um, So I have felt like an extra pressure to, to only put out my best all the time, which is great. I love having that pressure and that's, I guess, as a Virgo, something I put on my, or as a Virgo moon, something I put on myself, but, um, I forget what the original question was, but yeah, you know, there's, there's benefits and drawbacks to both.

[00:28:53] I mean, it's, it's nice to be in a small group. It's a crowded field and it's hard to stand out. I[00:29:00] think a lot of, um, male shapers, um, are maybe not forced, but, um, the ones who are making a name for themselves these days, not the legacy brands, uh, do so on, uh, Occupying a certain niche, you know, whether it's only making holes or only making channel bottoms or only making a sims You know, you've you've got a they find their niche and then they become the guy who fills that niche Where as a woman, I actually have the benefit of being able to be a bit more of a generalist Which I love because if I had to make the same thing all the time, I would get pretty bored.

[00:29:37] I'm not shaping for the same wave all the time. I'm not shaping for the same

[00:29:41] Tyler: customer all the time. Yeah, and I'm

[00:29:43] Rachel: not trying to make the same thing all the time. Then there would be no point in not cutting everything on CNC. So, um, there's, there's benefits and drawbacks to both. But what I would love for both my sake as a woman, also a shaper, And for the men who are also shapers, if we could, like, [00:30:00] drop the gender title before shaper, so we can all just be shapers.

[00:30:04] So the men don't have to be specialists and the women can be as well.

[00:30:07] Tyler: Well, that's the whole thing. Like, it, it's a, it must be infuriating and frustrating sometimes when it's just like, you have to be that much better. You know, to be accepted than, than like if it were just a normal white dude, almost, you know?

[00:30:21] Shaper. Like, you have to constantly, you're being scrutinized even slightly more.

[00:30:34] It's okay, I don't mind the break. I'm gonna have a little sip of water.

[00:30:37] Rachel: And you can remind me what the question was?

[00:30:39] Tyler: What is it? Schmuck. I looked at him and he looked at me and he said This fucking guy. This fucking guy. This fucking guy. That alarm guy.

[00:30:59] Rachel: Okay, [00:31:00] what did you just say again, Tyler? Do you remember what the gist of it was or what the question was?

[00:31:06] Tyler: Uh, we'll wait, we'll wait till the

[00:31:08] Rachel: Oh, it's the alarm. Oh, that's what that is. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. It's

[00:31:11] Tyler: the alarm. You can't go down the emergency steps. They're for emergencies for a reason. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:31:22] Rachel: We got it.

[00:31:22] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:31:23] Rachel: We totally understand, buddy.

[00:31:25] Tyler: This poor guy. He's going to now have to walk up stairs.

[00:31:27] Rachel: Security penguin.

[00:31:34] Tyler: Oh my god, you just hit the nail on the head on that one. Wow. That was too good. Wow.

[00:31:43] Danny DeVito. Oh my god, that was amazing.

[00:31:51] Uh, I don't want to talk because I don't want to ruin, I don't want to ruin, you know, and be like, lose good conversation. It's always [00:32:00] the thing where like people come in and we end up talking and you're like, no, it's good. I didn't, I

[00:32:03] Rachel: didn't smoke weed before this. So I can go. I know. I'm going to be pretty close to being on point.

[00:32:09] Tyler: You're good.

[00:32:10] Rachel: You're good. This is fun. You're right. I am at ease. Hey. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

[00:32:14] Tyler: it's like. I figure I'd start. Well, that's the whole thing. Like it, it's a, it must be infuriating and frustrating sometimes when it's just like, you have, well, that's the whole thing. Like it, it's a, it must be infuriating and frustrating sometimes when it's just like, you have to be that much better, you know, to be accepted than, than like, if it were just a normal white dude, almost, you know, shaper, like you have to constantly, you're being scrutinized even slightly more.

[00:32:55] Oh! Oh! I'm being stupid now.

[00:32:59] Rachel: I [00:33:00] think it went off. Yeah.

[00:33:01] Tyler: Yeah. Alright. So, do you remember what you were going to ask? Yeah, I do. I do remember.

[00:33:06] Rachel: Are you going to pick it up from the question?

[00:33:08] Tyler: What was that? Oh, shit.

[00:33:10] Rachel: I could just hop in. I was going to I

[00:33:12] Tyler: mean, is it hard? Is it hard, like, that you have to Is it hard that you have to be that much better like you're being more scrutinized than than some other shapers potentially

[00:33:25] Rachel: I don't even think that it's that I receive more scrutiny.

[00:33:28] It's that I want that scrutiny It's that because I'm a woman that scrutiny isn't even applied It feels like sometimes that I will be let in regardless because I'm a woman doing it whether I've made one board Whether I've made 500 boards whether Their shit or whether they're amazing. It doesn't really matter.

[00:33:43] I'm going to be in the group of Women shapers no matter what and I can't go outside of that It means that i'm going to get the female shaper questions when I am giving an interview instead of actual technical ones

[00:33:55] Tyler: Yeah,

[00:33:55] Rachel: and it's a lens. No, no, you're not doing it I've actually been driving it in that [00:34:00] direction because i'm on one today and Actually in response to the question that you just asked I felt compelled I've made my subway reading Simone de Beauvoir because I've never done that before, but I'm doing second sex right now.

[00:34:13] And it's interesting because so much of the stuff that we're talking about right now is in that. I mean, the way that woman is defined in relation to a man, but man is not defined in relation to a woman. It's a one way

[00:34:23] Tyler: poll. And

[00:34:25] Rachel: uh, I don't feel like male shapers have to wear that title and respond to that title, whereas I constantly have it on my shoulder, something that I either like am angry about or fighting against.

[00:34:39] And it creates this chip on my shoulder that's no fun for anybody. Um, and that's why I kind of, I really love playing around with this term male shaper. I use it all the time. I love defining what a male shaper is, and I love defining what a female shaper is. I mean, to me, Yes. When I hear those terms, I hear female shaper and I think a female shaper is a [00:35:00] content producer performing for the male gaze.

[00:35:02] Tyler: Mmm.

[00:35:03] Rachel: A male shaper is somebody with a technical focus so narrow that it blinds them. You know, somebody who shapes in straight lines and it's all tri planes and it's all planar porn again. It's this fetishization of the process and it's, uh, breaking down the process into a series of straight lines, whereas when I shape.

[00:35:26] Yeah, it's a lot more fluid. It's a lot more about the circle. I use my planer almost like these termite paths instead of full passes along the length of the board. Um, there's a difference in approach. I almost call it like when I'm sanding like tiny bubbles, um, because I think that that's how water works.

[00:35:43] works and operates it. It's spirals and vortices and the way that it grabs the board. It's never going in a straight line from nose to tail. There's places it needs to enter and exit places it needs to hug and not hug. So I'm thinking about that when I'm shaping, which to me is, I guess, if I'm going to be a female shaper, [00:36:00] that's the way in which I'm a female shaper.

[00:36:01] Quote unquote female shaper

[00:36:03] Tyler: is your technique is in

[00:36:04] Rachel: my technique. I'm thinking much more in circles. And if you want to talk about traits of divine masculine and divine feminine, there's the the rational straight line and there's the, the chaos imbued mystical circle. And I like separating the two into those because there's definitely female shaper men.

[00:36:22] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:36:23] Rachel: Not in the sense of doing a performance for Instagram,

[00:36:26] Tyler: a feminine approach to have a feminine

[00:36:28] Rachel: approach to their craft. Yeah. There's, you know, on the other end of the spectrum there, and there's female shapers who I think embody some of those male shaper qualities. Like I'm thinking of like Christine Carroll from Furrow, who has a very specialized point of view.

[00:36:42] And, uh, I think there's a lot of things in her approach that reach into that, that specialization. And I think that's rad and there need to be space and there are, I mean, she does great, but like there's space. For her to be that style of a shaper, just as there's, you know, space for a male [00:37:00] shaper to be the generalist.

[00:37:03] Feminine maybe more artistically minded shaper.

[00:37:06] Tyler: I want to ask then on this technique You you just brought up like you shape in smaller that you don't do large big planes Then is that what you were saying a little bit in terms of the technique? I'm curious about that I want to explore this because this is super cool.

[00:37:20] My relationship to the planer is

[00:37:21] Rachel: honestly changing every day I've been shaping for five years and it only really feels like now

[00:37:25] Tyler: that

[00:37:26] Rachel: I have an intimate relationship with my planer.

[00:37:28] Tyler: Yeah

[00:37:30] Rachel: But I do notice and this is partially physiological. Like when I was saying before we started recording the podcast, I'm shaping over right now at a residency at Pilgrim.

[00:37:40] So I'm using somebody else's bay. It's an amazing bay. It's better than my bay. But, um, yesterday guys

[00:37:47] Tyler: like me though, I heard,

[00:37:49] Rachel: well, Christian Beamish was in there yesterday. He's another shaper for my area. And

[00:37:53] Tyler: he's tall

[00:37:54] Rachel: and he does a lot of channel bottoms, definitely a specialist, but he's very tall. He's probably close to [00:38:00] 6'4 and he was using the bay for a day, and, uh, the, um, I think about his reach.

[00:38:08] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Rachel: For him to do a 7 foot mid length, he could probably, in his wingspan, do that pass without even taking a step.

[00:38:16] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Rachel: For me, it's like, jingling the cord, and, you know, it's a lot more walking for me. Um. Yeah.

[00:38:23] Tyler: So it forces you to get around the length of a board.

[00:38:26] Rachel: So it's not as easy for me to do, uh, a pass along the entire length of the board and have it accomplish what I want to accomplish.

[00:38:33] Um, there's times and places in the process that I'm doing those passes, but not all the time because I don't want to take that volume off consistently. And yes, I can adjust the depth on my planer as I go, but, um, I really like to focus on that area 12 inches back from the nose where water needs to release from the nose so that it doesn't bog and become.

[00:38:56] You know, yeah, a board that bogs easily, and I [00:39:00] also want to remove that from the tail and make sure that, you know, the widest point is the thickest point of my board so that it is a proper foil. So, in service of me doing that, I'm, because I'm doing so many rocker adjustments, With the planer, I'm not really doing too many adjustments in the blank.

[00:39:18] I like to have the freedom, especially when traveling, cause I hadn't surfed Rockaway before I got here. So I had to be, uh, cognizant of the fact that I might want to adjust the rocker of my models after trying it out. So in order to be able to reach all those nuances, yeah, it doesn't serve me to always do full lengths of the planer.

[00:39:39] But if somebody were to watch my process on. You know, if they were a fly in the wall, they might think it's amateurish because that's not the way that the person who taught them taught them how to do it. Um, but when I shape, um, maybe it's because I come from this artistic background. I'm thinking of it more as like a

[00:39:57] Tyler: sculpture,

[00:39:58] Rachel: not

[00:39:58] Tyler: even a

[00:39:59] Rachel: sculpture, almost [00:40:00] more like an observational drawing.

[00:40:01] Like there's something that I'm trying to accomplish and represent. And how I get there is, well, there's certain parts of the process that I like to have very regimented, particularly at the front end. But how I, how I get there is less important to me than the final outcome. So if like I have a, an eye on a face I'm trying to make.

[00:40:21] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:40:21] Rachel: You know, I have a way that it wants to look. I don't have a process that drives me there. I have an eye I'm trying to

[00:40:28] Tyler: Achieve.

[00:40:29] Rachel: Achieve. Yeah. So, um, for me, the achievement of the ends of what I'm trying to produce is much more important than the process by which I get there. So I'm not as committed to, you know, counting passes.

[00:40:40] Tyler: You freeform it a little bit more. I'm curious then, like, It's interesting, like you have these backgrounds that I think have allowed you to, to um, access surfing at a much faster rate maybe than other people. You were a gymnast and a prof [00:41:00] and a competitive skier and you're an artist and a sculptor and those skill sets I imagine have come in handy for surfing.

[00:41:08] I mean, the gymnast and the skiing part, I think, are, you know, skills that Lend itself very well to surfing and the art part is, you know, you going to school for, for art, design, sculpting, painting that really allows you to kind of access shaping in a really unique way because you're already, um, you have dexterity in your hands and you know how to communicate from your brain to your hands.

[00:41:34] Rachel: I've had the benefit of living a life before surfing. I think that if I had been surfing my entire life, like a lot of people have.

[00:41:43] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:41:43] Rachel: I probably wouldn't have gone and done any of those other things because surfing is so amazing and why would you want to do anything else? It's the reason why it sucks you in.

[00:41:50] So it's, it's really hard to

[00:41:51] Tyler: It fucks your life up. Become really

[00:41:53] Rachel: good at something other than surfing if you find it too young.

[00:41:55] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:41:56] Rachel: Um, and I do think, I forget where the saying comes [00:42:00] from, it might be a Zen thing, it might not be, but like how you do one thing is how you do everything. There's a philosophical approach to how I learn how to do stuff.

[00:42:07] Um, that is not specific to surfing, but applies to it. Um, so I think that that has helped. Um, but I, hmm, pausing, thinking, what was it also that I wanted to say? Um,

[00:42:32] Totally just drew a blank.

[00:42:33] Tyler: That's okay. I love it. It's the best though. Don't worry. We'll get it in post edit. Don't worry.

[00:42:42] Rachel: I'll trim that up and make it sound like a really concise answer.

[00:42:46] Tyler: I find it, but like, I guess then like, what, what did you what did you, what skills or what what approach did you have in art that you feel has come in handy with your shaping then?

[00:42:57] Is that is it the fact that now I [00:43:00] remember what I

[00:43:00] Rachel: wanted to say before I answer that

[00:43:02] Tyler: all right?

[00:43:04] Rachel: In some ways the same thing happens in art, and it's why I left the art world it. There's a there's a critic Named Dave Hickey

[00:43:11] Tyler: who

[00:43:12] Rachel: was a big advocate of Going off and doing something else so that your art actually had some connection to the world and was about something Other than the Ouroboros thing at the surf industry does where it's just referencing itself all the time And I really did feel like I had to go out into the world and find something that I was living for and living about Before I had anything relevant to say in my art And I think in that same way having other life experience and bringing that into surfing has I like to hope and think it makes what I'm doing more vital.

[00:43:46] Um, as far as the skills, the technical stuff that goes into it, I use the stuff that I used in my formal art education way more as a board builder than I ever did as an artist. As an artist, I had to kind of like de skill and forget. Because honestly, like [00:44:00] that, Formal style of knowing how to paint or sculpt doesn't really help you have a contemporary art career.

[00:44:05] Tyler: No If anything it

[00:44:07] Rachel: locks you into like a fine art place that nobody's really looking for

[00:44:10] Tyler: exactly.

[00:44:10] Rachel: So, um

[00:44:12] Tyler: drawing a circle perfectly 200 times in a row freehand You know,

[00:44:16] Rachel: no one's really looking for like a renaissance fresco unless it's like really making a commentary on something. You know, it's not like the style that's necessarily in vogue.

[00:44:26] At least it really, that sort of like traditional figuration was really not in vogue when I left school in 2008 and like the financial bubble had just burst and it was like all work about that. So the ways that I've found the background in art to be handy, um, In addition to having like a sense of craftsmanship and knowing that I can produce something and holding myself to a certain standard because I've done it before, um, having experience with wood to know enough about grain that like when I went to go do that first board, I was really, and since, you know, really aware of [00:45:00]What the wood is doing, how the wood is interacting with the foam, and also just, um, having experience working reductively.

[00:45:06] Um, another aspect I think that's really important in board building is in painting, is knowing when to stop something.

[00:45:13] Tyler: That was a question I was going to have, is when do you know when to stop? It's so important. It's the same thing in an

[00:45:18] Rachel: oil painting. You kind of have to stop yourself. Before you think you need to.

[00:45:22] Because you

[00:45:22] Tyler: can overdo it so easily. And it's the same

[00:45:24] Rachel: thing with working reductively and like, Perfection can really be the enemy of good Perfection really becomes the enemy of good enough because in the pursuit of perfection, that's where you overdo it and you don't get that foam back. Um, so that's something that's really important.

[00:45:39] I think the place that it has been The most helpful is in laminating. I love laminating. If it were

[00:45:48] Tyler: less, if I had,

[00:45:49] Rachel: if I had infinite time in an ideal space, really, it comes down more to the space. I work out of my garage and I do laminate sometimes in my garage, but I can't sand in there at the [00:46:00] moment.

[00:46:00] And if I were to convert it into a space to sand, as I'm looking into, it's It's a whole other can of worms, um, but I really love laminating and color theory is so important in, in laminating. It's like number one. Also knowing how much material to work with, what pressures to work with. I found all of that easier for me to pick up, I think, than it was for some other people that I was around because I have spent so much time with the paintbrush in my hand.

[00:46:27] It's a, it's a similar, similar thing.

[00:46:29] Tyler: It's interesting how it, we're, we're in a time right now where it seems like there's a laminator shortage too, as well. Uh, you know, or at least that's what I hear on, you know, David Lee Scales and other people constantly bemoan how there's not a lot of laminators out there.

[00:46:46] Yeah, well they don't

[00:46:46] Rachel: make enough money.

[00:46:48] Tyler: Yeah. The

[00:46:48] Rachel: shops can barely stay open. Um, it's one of the most toxic things you can do. It's, uh, an industry where there's absolutely no health care. I would fancy a guess that at least a third of the people [00:47:00] working in surfboard factories building your surfboards are probably technically homeless.

[00:47:04] Um, it is impossible to make a living as, uh, as a board builder, really. Unless you have some kind of venture capital stepping in some kind of scale happening or you're at this in this small percentage of People able to kind of ask a decent price, but really I I am an advocate of I think eventually in the future we're we're It's, we're an industry that would benefit from unionization or at least a thousand dollar flat rate surcharge surfboard permit for the privilege of even having a surfboard that can go to paying a fair wage to the people building boards.

[00:47:43] It's so specialized. So, I, um, it's funny in the way that this, um, Conversation also intersects with the art world because if you took, uh, a sculpture made out of the same materials with the same finish and presented it as a work of art, the [00:48:00] production value alone would warrant so much money for that as an artistic object.

[00:48:04] And then a show that opened last week in Chelsea, um, it's a group show called Overserved that, um, is curated by, uh, My friends Alberto and Raffi, it's called like Raffi and Alice. Um, anyway, that's not really relevant. What I'm really trying to say is that But I heard the show was

[00:48:22] Tyler: great, by the way. Uh,

[00:48:23] Rachel: it was a good show.

[00:48:24] Yeah. It was beautiful. Um, but the work that I showed in it was, uh, basically my, um, my test piece for laminating. You have to test your, uh, uh, little swatches and see what it looks like catalyzed. Make sure you have the right pigment. And um, over the course of a few boards, I'd kind of accumulated those tests into one art object that I was kind of thinking about as I was making it.

[00:48:48] And, uh, the show was, uh, curated around like an alcohol theme. found that, you know, the process of using your kicked resin [00:49:00] and having like 10 seconds at the end of a glass job in order to do something with this material really imitates or mimics the, uh, the feeling of working drunk. Um, but for me, uh, what's, What I'm trying to develop in this new, like, more abstract work that I'm making using surfboard materials is to highlight that in order to actually get a reasonable value for, uh, the surfboard, you need to divorce it of all of its function and all of its, like, Uh, ability to be used as a surfboard.

[00:49:33] Only then can it be seen as an artistic object and actually, like, you can get what it deserves because the function of the surfboard is what keeps it locked in the, like, one to two thousand dollar range.

[00:49:44] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:49:44] Rachel: In which we're all, like, trapped, basically. And some of that is from, uh, the, uh, Older cats in the game who are like, I would never charge more than that.

[00:49:54] You know, I can't compete with Renny Yator selling a 1, 400 longboard. I can't put a longboard on the [00:50:00] rack for that.

[00:50:00] Tyler: Renny Yator should never be selling a surfboard for 1, 400. He should not. And so it's,

[00:50:05] Rachel: I mean, it's a beautiful, humble idea. Yeah. But it's something that exclusively exists in the surf industry.

[00:50:11] And I want boards to be accessible to people. Um, but But I also would like this industry to be able to continue and move forward. And I would love to not see like the people building boards, not be able to get healthcare for the damage done from being able to build boards or having to live in a toxic environment because they can't afford to live out of their space or to be living out of their car at a glass shop.

[00:50:36] I mean, it's just the polish that polishers use, like. I think it's known. It makes people really aggro, like it's gnarly stuff.

[00:50:45] Tyler: Well,

[00:50:45] Rachel: do you

[00:50:46] Tyler: like, I want to take this conversation in two different directions to be honest, cause I'm really enjoying this, but I think one is like, does it blow your mind that We in the surf world, and the surfboard industry particularly, has been dealing with [00:51:00] such toxic materials for so long, with no change.

[00:51:04] Like, does it blow your mind that we're still, like, dealing with the same materials from, like, six years ago? Uh,

[00:51:11] Rachel: I mean, balsa feels amazing. I do think that we should probably be planting more of that. I watched a, like a nature documentary, like a little David Attenborough thing the other day, and it was about the battle that happens on the rainforest floor, uh, when a tree falls in the battle to be the tree that grows to be the one that collects that sunlight.

[00:51:31] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:51:31] Rachel: And in this segment, uh, Uh, the balsa tree was the one that ended up winning because of its, uh, really poor cell structure. It's able to grow so much faster and I'm like, wait, then why aren't we using more balsa? If it's the one that grows the quickest, um, why aren't we using that? Because it's such a great surfboard material.

[00:51:50] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:51:51] Rachel: Can't get a balsa blank now. Um, but at the end of the day, the poly stuff feels so damn good. I mean, [00:52:00] I have been riding a polyola blank here, which. I don't know truly what amount of their materials are recycled or what the actual details are on that. But what I. Think is a great thing to focus on in the eco friendly elements of that blank are that for the shaper It's less toxic.

[00:52:22] I can feel that I can feel it. The dust doesn't cling to me in the same way I think the difference is is that I think they add wood chips into the mix and they also

[00:52:32] Tyler: hope

[00:52:33] Rachel: Uh, whatever that agent is that adds that whitening ness and that sponginess, it's not present. So at the end of the day, when I'm shaping with that foam, it feels much better for me.

[00:52:42] And I actually love the way that it surfs. And it's sugarier in the way that it shapes. It's not as bright on the eyes, which I like. But you

[00:52:51] Tyler: can color it, right? Yeah, totally, but you just

[00:52:53] Rachel: can't get it here. You know, unfortunately, like, I was able to get a few of their blanks. Where

[00:52:58] Tyler: are they? They're in Portugal, is it?

[00:52:59] They're in [00:53:00] Europe, I'm not

[00:53:00] Rachel: sure where. I feel like the company's based out of Germany, but I could be wrong on that. Um, but I think that what's being left out of the conversation is, As part of the environment and that ecological landscape are the people who build the boards and, uh, like it or not, we humans are still part of the environment, and I think that if we can make a less toxic environment for the humans making the board, that's honestly, I think just as good.

[00:53:30] Tyler: Don't you think if we use less toxic material, the government, like a lot, I hear a lot of people complain about how EPA and they crack down on shaping because you have to have all these like ventilation and a lot of regulation in, in those, uh, shaping bays and also the, the glass houses. And people have said, Oh, they're the same

[00:53:52] Rachel: houses.

[00:53:52] I like that.

[00:53:53] Tyler: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know you like glass. I'll tell you. And I wonder if you've made it more [00:54:00] environmentally sustainable and healthier for people where they're not, it's not toxic, you could get around some of the extra, uh, costs that you have to build into a factory because of the, uh,

[00:54:11] Rachel: This is where I want to answer this question in like three different intersecting ways.

[00:54:14] I know, right? Um, so,

[00:54:21] okay, I'm trying to organize the three points in my mind. One second.

[00:54:25] Tyler: Imagine in PowerPoint presentation.

[00:54:26] Rachel: I, I am. So, I'm going to maybe answer them in a flipped around order. Go for it. Okay. Okay. Uh, I think the, the most ecologically friendly surfboard is the one that somebody is going to ride for the entire course of its life.

[00:54:43] They are going to love enough that they put so much energy into repairing it that that board can last for 60, 100 years plus because of the quality of the board and how it feels. So even though the, the poly stuff is more toxic than. Marginally more [00:55:00] toxic some might claim than say the epoxy or glassing and flax or these kind of like What I find to be marketing red herrings because the amount of ecological benefit is so slight But the way that that board feels is just it doesn't feel as good So for me I'm always gonna try to make the best feeling board out of the best Materials that I think will give that feeling along with that.

[00:55:25] I feel like In the way that sometimes the, the woman shaper or the quote unquote female shaper is siloed into only making boards for women. There's also this push genuine or not and sometimes coming from the male shapers as well. Um, that it's women's responsibility to look into making boards that are more eco friendly.

[00:55:49] I don't know where this can, and there are some women who that is their focus. Like Ashley Lloyd is pursuing that and she is, you know, that is, That's her lane and [00:56:00] that's awesome. People do need to be doing that. But just because I'm a woman and like I have maybe some more empathetic qualities because that's how I was, you know, reared to view the world or whatever, it doesn't mean that it's my responsibility to make boards that are more eco friendly.

[00:56:13] I want to make the best board that I can. And I don't feel like I should, Limit myself if that's not my agenda, not to say that's not a completely valid agenda. Um,

[00:56:28] I think those were the thing the splits I wanted to make I was thinking there was a third one hovering but Now I I think that there's amazing opportunities to find ways that we can be making boards that are more eco friendly Like I have ideas that maybe I don't want to spill here. I think that you know the the boards made out of the mycology People are exploring it and there's a lot of technical ways that could be done.

[00:56:52] But I think there needs to be more conversation between the mycologists and the people who actually know the industry because there's a

[00:56:58] Tyler: mushroom based. Yeah. I [00:57:00] think

[00:57:00] Rachel: that there's a gap and I think that there's a focus in the wrong direction. Uh, I don't think it's in the blank, but I think that really the industry to replace is the soft top industry.

[00:57:09] And we could be growing those things as pop outs with removable skins and the bar for performance is low. I think the place to in the industry to replace. With a more ecologically friendly model is not the small sliver of the thousands of surfers riding the poly boards,

[00:57:24] Tyler: right?

[00:57:24] Rachel: It's the beginners. It's the ones that are ending up in landfills.

[00:57:27] It's the soft tops that are only lasting six months anyway that are replaceable because the bar for performance is low. The bar for, uh, their durability is low, and it's the most toxic waste, you know, there be you're basically surfing on a diaper. So I think that's a part of the industry that we should really be focusing on replacing.

[00:57:46] Thanks for listening. Um, and I think it's got the best potential as a use of the technology that currently exists with the mushrooms. So, if there is a mycologist out there who is looking for somebody to work with, I have been looking for a mycologist for a long time because I [00:58:00]really would love to develop this, like, mycopop idea of doing pop outs out of mushrooms.

[00:58:04] Tyler: Have you looked at, like, uh, bloom foam? Or the, the bloom, you know, they do, uh, they make everything out of algae. And they're making, like, Kelly Slater's sandals are made out of this algae foam,

[00:58:16] Rachel: and it feels

[00:58:17] Tyler: like it could be soft and rubbery, which could be a good skin, at least.

[00:58:21] Rachel: These living networks are really appealing, um, because at the end of the day, it's a community, and like, that community of living intelligence under your feet as a living surfboard, like, wow, what a cool idea.

[00:58:31] Tyler: Brings new meaning to this board, feels alive.

[00:58:33] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that the challenges come in, like, How you seal it in a way that it doesn't soak up so much resin it becomes too heavy. How do you take something that's like not resistant to water and make it resistant to water? At what point is it even mushroom and not just like a bunch of wood chips that you've sealed?

[00:58:51] I mean, there's like, there's a lot of technical stuff at play, but I think they're really exciting avenues. Um, the problem with some of it, maybe with the [00:59:00] exception of the mushroom stuff, because the bar to entry into working on that technology, the, financially is not that high.

[00:59:06] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:59:06] Rachel: Uh, but some of the algae stuff, you know, you're getting into like a needing investment zone.

[00:59:13] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:59:13] Rachel: That when applied to the surf industry, when you get this sort of like venture capital mentality, it all becomes about scale and it's Yeah,

[00:59:22] Tyler: it does. It's a whole

[00:59:24] Rachel: different beast. You know, uh, the surfboard industry is just a bad industry. I get crap from my peers. Parents about it all the time. Like, you know, like, uh, you can't even really for

[00:59:35] Tyler: this art degree and this is what you do A little bit of that more

[00:59:40] Rachel: so just having to to justify uh, Putting my all into like what's essentially a terrible business plan

[00:59:47] Tyler: Well, but that brings me to the other topic I want to discuss is the business model.

[00:59:51] The model is is busted You know, it it makes no sense The way we're doing it and I think there's got to be a better way. [01:00:00] I know that, uh, you had a conversation with Chris where you sold an art piece and a surfboard together almost or something like that, I think.

[01:00:07] Rachel: Oh, I don't think so.

[01:00:08] Tyler: Maybe I heard it from someone else.

[01:00:09] I like that

[01:00:10] Rachel: idea.

[01:00:10] Tyler: Yeah, like you

[01:00:12] Rachel: Oh, of the idea of being able to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a good idea. Yeah. I haven't done it.

[01:00:16] Tyler: Yeah, but you could do that. Yeah, you could. There are things, I think, where I think there are other ways of doing it. I mean, everything from subscription model surfboards, I think there's some, some validity to that, potentially, because, especially here in New York City, so many people don't have room to keep a surfboard in their tiny apartments, um, they have lockers and stuff, but how great would it be to just go out to the beach and grab, like, Whatever board's available, you know, that's really nice where you have a certain board that you hold onto.

[01:00:45] And then when you're ready to trade it in, you trade into something else. Like, I think there are new models that have yet to really be fully flushed or explored.

[01:00:54] Rachel: Oh, absolutely. Again, the problem is at the end of the day, what I love is making surfboards. [01:01:00] What I don't love is like doing business. It's the business stuff that actually, uh, makes you really not want to.

[01:01:07] And it's the. What's unfortunate about, like, doing well is almost that, like, you have to keep doing it. Well, I like Just to keep making them for yourself.

[01:01:16] Tyler: Well, I like the idea that, uh, what Chris is doing here at Pilgrim with the residency program. I think that is a, a great way to get your boards out there, to get a certain number of orders in, and And also obviously travel, you know, I think that's a way, a model that could be explored further with events or whatever it is and other ways that you could raise money or selling your, you know, you, I see that you have some clothing or t shirts as well you're developing.

[01:01:44] Rachel: Yeah, clothing has always kind of been the way for surfboard companies to actually become profitable. I mean, you think about like something like Stussy.

[01:01:52] Tyler: Yeah. Or like. Hobie.

[01:01:53] Rachel: Hobie. Yeah, I mean, it's. I mean, maybe the surfboard. I mean, the, the sailboats had something to do with that. [01:02:00] Well, yeah,

[01:02:00] Tyler: yeah, yeah. The Hobie Cats definitely helped, but I mean, you know, I mean, you can look at like, uh, even Bob Hurley, right?

[01:02:05] Like, he had IPD and he had Hurley surfboards and, you know, he eventually was like, I got to do billabong. The two have gone hand in

[01:02:12] Rachel: hand.

[01:02:12] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:02:12] Rachel: Um, and in a way for me that, you know, because it allows me to take my artwork and, uh, some of the more like nuances and what I'm bringing to the table that don't have to do with surfboards and maybe have more to do with my artistic vision or my political vision, um, and fold those in.

[01:02:29] It helps widen the funnel of what board boards can be. Um, so it's what I like about surfboards is that being a board builder allows me to have my hand, um, in a couple different pots. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's a lot to manage. You have to, I made the mistake of like, you know, you want to get a reseller license so that you can buy wholesale for stuff.

[01:02:54] Well then great. You're going to have to start paying taxes. Wish I had thought that one through.

[01:02:59] Tyler: I know you're [01:03:00] just like, I'm making boards. Oh, gosh, I got to pay this now. You think

[01:03:04] Rachel: you're doing something to kind of avoid these things and come up with a solution to it, but you end up getting sucked back into the mundane world, no matter what.

[01:03:12] Um, Yeah.

[01:03:15] Tyler: I, I have a great business. I have a great job idea that will guarantee to lose money, be a surfboard shapers agent and manage their business affairs and opportunities.

[01:03:29] Rachel: I would love one of those. I would really love a business manager. Wouldn't that be great? How good would that be? A business manager, somebody managing digital assets, a graphic designer would be nice.

[01:03:37] Right, right. You have to wear a hundred different hats.

[01:03:40] Tyler: You're your own, you're your own small business, you know? And it's, it's. On one hand, uh, I imagine it must be really freeing, but it's also hard and there's so much to do and today, you know, used to be back in the day, you know, you, you know, you could be a shaper, take out a couple [01:04:00] ads and surf mags, and that's kind of it, you know, and go to the surf expo and show your boards.

[01:04:05] And that was it. And now you got to be Everything.

[01:04:09] Rachel: Now you have to also be like a social media person as well. I mean, I find that to be kind of the biggest drag. It's not just making the thing. It's how you're presenting it and how people are receiving it. How you bring people along on that journey with you.

[01:04:24] And honestly, when I'm in the Bay making a surfboard, I don't want to step back and think about how I can make a reel about it. Nothing pulls me out of the moment more. It's frustrating. Um, and again, that's why I get back to the whole female shaper thing with the like, The visibility aspect of it and the, the presenting the crowd, being seen as a woman doing the thing is somehow like, Whoa, she knows how to hold a planer.

[01:04:50] And I find that responsibility to prove that I can do the thing that I'm already doing and show that all the time to be something that I feel like is more on me as a [01:05:00] female shaper than it is, or a woman shaper as it is on some of the men. So there's an expectation that I'm going to have a social media savvy that I don't think Transcribed uh, the male shapers have to

[01:05:11] Tyler: Think about

[01:05:12] Rachel: think about as much.

[01:05:14] Tyler: I I you know, i'm just waiting for the day when we're gonna have a surfboard shaping influencer Who's like, hey guys just working on this 5 3. We

[01:05:22] Rachel: definitely do

[01:05:23] Tyler: I haven't seen anyone like talking into the camera. I mean christian bemis does talk into the camera actually, which is funny But he's not doing his shaping.

[01:05:32] I don't

[01:05:32] Rachel: know if he has the polish though to count as an influencer There's definitely some out there. I feel like who have You God bless them a really big reach. Yeah, and have a are naturally good storytellers in that way, and that's so awesome I just hate the expectation that I have to do.

[01:05:51] Tyler: No, it sucks.

[01:05:52] It's annoying. It's like Because so

[01:05:56] Rachel: much of my business comes from Instagram, I don't really have the choice of social media [01:06:00] So, I mean, I haven't updated my website in like three years. Please don't go there. If you want to know what I'm actually doing and have a conversation with me about it and order a board like Instagram is really like the place where I'm doing eighty five percent of that work.

[01:06:14] So it's it's this blessing and a curse.

[01:06:18] Tyler: I know it's it's

[01:06:19] Rachel: it flattens the process. I also you know I I'm wary to overshare too much about him what I'm doing too because at the end of the day it's like putting the name of the surf spot on your surf photo. It's like. Again, no new shapers. Yeah,

[01:06:32] Tyler: exactly.

[01:06:33] Rachel: You don't want to give too much away about what you're doing either.

[01:06:35] Um, do you want to maintain some mystery? Let the mystery be.

[01:06:40] Tyler: I want to, I want to talk, uh, a little bit just about like, um, you, you didn't have a lot of people help showing you how to shape. Uh, but there was one, uh, Lance Carson, you know, who, who, sort of, as well with someone who, who, there's been a

[01:06:57] Rachel: few,

[01:06:57] Tyler: who's been like kind of friendly towards you at [01:07:00] least.

[01:07:00] And he's like an icon of our, of surfing. I mean, you know, I,

[01:07:04] Rachel: I really hope he's well. I haven't spoken to him in a minute, but I really appreciated his generosity. I haven't spent a ton of time with him, but there are times when we're working in the same shop, and there have been people like Ian Zamora, for example, is somebody who's been just, I've been glassing with him and through questions and osmosis and being around, he's actually shared a ton of knowledge with me that I'm super grateful for.

[01:07:25] Um, with Lance, He really helped me hone in the templating, the process of like taking your template and accurately getting it onto the board and in the process of, of teaching me how he did that. He also allowed me to use his template,

[01:07:40] Tyler: which

[01:07:40] Rachel: was such an honor for me. You know, I really wanted to make a pintail and he let me use his pintail template and he was so generous about it.

[01:07:46] He was not only generous about letting me use that template. And the dimensions, because I was like, no, let's do it with your dimensions. I want to know what that feels like. Uh, he also made me these beautiful laminates for it. Um, [01:08:00] with my name and he like made me this whole logo. He loves like drawing on the computer and it was just like, what a gift.

[01:08:07] You know, to have somebody like that, giving you that time. So, you know, it's, I don't want to overblow the relationship and say like, this was my shaping mentor or anything, but he had that generosity with his shape and the generosity with his creativity and his time. And it was really meaningful to me to have somebody that I look up to so much.

[01:08:27] And I love their surfing and their shaping. There's such a legend

[01:08:29] Tyler: surfing, you know, just care

[01:08:31] Rachel: and want to be a part of that. So that's super meaningful. You know, there have. been other people and if I have questions, it's not like there's people who are hostile to me. They're not going to answer. But also now is like having shaped for five years and having like a couple hundred boards under my belt.

[01:08:45] It's a much different thing than when I was starting as well. In. Um, I do appreciate earning people's, like, trust and respect and earning that ability to get these questions answered. Um, so it's not something that [01:09:00] I'm resentful of at all. It's not like there have been people who have said no.

[01:09:03] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:09:04] Rachel: Um, it's more just like when you've told somebody that you were willing to do this 10 an hour job.

[01:09:11] Doing shit work a hundred times and then they choose somebody from Craigslist who doesn't even surf.

[01:09:17] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:09:17] Rachel: you know, that's more the Frustration, so it's it's um, it's it's interesting. I don't know. It's um, Well, the the mentor thing is such a funny thing because in a way you're looking for somebody to sign off on you And say like this person's all right, you know

[01:09:35] Tyler: I've always been in search of a mentor and never had one, you know, you know, it was like, I've always wanted and then at like some point you're like, I guess I am now the mentor.

[01:09:45] You've got to be your own coach at a certain

[01:09:46] Rachel: point. And there's benefits to that too. I, um, There's a book that I love, The Art of Learning, by Josh Waitzkin. He um, Have you seen the movie Searching for Bobby Fischer?

[01:09:58] Tyler: Yes.

[01:09:59] Rachel: [01:10:00] He's the, the adult of the kid that that movie is about. And he's also like, uh, Tai Chi push hands, competitive, he, Tai Chi, like world champion, like seven times or something like this.

[01:10:13] And, um, the way he breaks down the art of learning, like I was saying before, how you do one thing is how you do everything. It's completely universal and it applies to different things. So yeah, in a lot of ways, like I have been my own surf coach, I have been my own shaping coach. Um, and I really wouldn't trade it.

[01:10:32] Tyler: There's

[01:10:32] Rachel: people that I would love to work with at this point, people I would love to watch, but I'm grateful that I have my own grounding in what is mine in what I do so that when I do get to learn from people I can choose to accept or reject what they're telling me to do. Um, and I think that that's a privilege that I have that a lot of other shapers haven't, you know, you come up with a mentor, you owe them the respect to do it the way they tell you to do it.

[01:10:59] Otherwise, what's [01:11:00] the point? Um, so I have been freed from that. More traditional kind of patriarchal system, and um, I'm just grateful that I also have had the opportunities from my past, from the education that I've had, to have translatable skills.

[01:11:14] Tyler: I, um, I wanted to talk a little bit about your competitive surfing, too.

[01:11:19] How did that come about? Have you always been competitive?

[01:11:22] Rachel: Uh, yeah. I come from a really like, if you're not first, you're last family where like the, the winning doesn't even feel good because the expectation was kind of that you had to

[01:11:33] Tyler: really,

[01:11:33] Rachel: I'm a really competitive person. I like the way that competition drives you.

[01:11:38] And, like, I really did have this desire to be good. Um, I started competing three years into my surfing, and it was really embarrassing at first. It pushed so much of my growth. I actually really recommend it to somebody looking to get better. There's two things you can do to get better at surfing, other than, you know, being a sponge.

[01:11:58] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:11:59] Rachel: Going out all [01:12:00] the time. But once you're at a certain point, making your own surfboard and competing.

[01:12:04] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:12:05] Rachel: they will force you to get good and force you to look objectively at what you're doing. Um, so I kind of threw myself into it by, you know, the, the real reason I started is I was at Malibu on like a really good four to five foot day.

[01:12:18] There was a club contest starting the next day, the MSA classic and. I was like, wait, you're telling me that if I get one of these clubs to sign me up and I give them a hundred bucks, I get to do this contest and surf Malibu with like five people for 20 minutes?

[01:12:32] Tyler: Fuck yeah.

[01:12:33] Rachel: On this day? Absolutely. So I did everything I could to like stay in the parking lot that night, get a club to sign me up.

[01:12:39] Start doing this contest and I, I fell in love with it. Um, it's stressful, but they're so fun and it drives you. And if you really want to dive into the community, particularly in California, the Cal California coalition of surf clubs is such an amazing family to be a part of. Um, so that's how I got started was doing the coalition contests.

[01:12:59] [01:13:00] Um, eventually that turned into doing some of the invitationals. Um, and, you know, uh, I went into it pretty hard because I had that drive to want to win. Um, but yeah, I think, I think that it's like a pressure cooker.

[01:13:17] Tyler: Were your parents, uh, really pushing you for that? They don't care. They don't care? No. Like when you were younger even?

[01:13:23] Rachel: Oh, no, they also were very kind of hands off with my sports. I think I could just tell that there was the expectation and I, I hold myself to that standard. From them or

[01:13:32] Tyler: from you?

[01:13:32] Rachel: Both. Both. Both.

[01:13:33] Tyler: You want to lay on the couch here? We can talk about it. I know, right? That's a whole, that's a whole deeper thing.

[01:13:40] I mean, I think the contest, what's great about them too, is that it brings community and it allows you to meet other surfers from other beaches and you can cross pollinate basically, which I think. really helps foster the community. And then in turn, hope in the hope is that it will also, uh, [01:14:00] allow people to know each other in a lineup, but also then maybe have more respect for each other and better etiquette, you know, that's the goal.

[01:14:07] Rachel: Really improves. I think the etiquette in particular, you know, you're dealing with priority situations and you're also put into situations where like you might be in a heat with somebody. But you're going to be in the lineup with them not in a heat pretty soon. So it really teaches you the consequences of shitty behavior in the water as well.

[01:14:26] Tyler: Have you had that experience?

[01:14:27] Rachel: Oh, I've had so many friendship, uh, uh, frictionizing, Experiences through contests, not necessarily from like back paddling or something in the water, but like, you know, I had, I had an experience where I, when I won my first surf contest, uh, like a couple of years later, I won that MSA contest that I was talking about.

[01:14:51] And, um, now there's always favoritism from the club, putting it on or this or that, you know, like a surf contest is not the most objective [01:15:00] judging situation, but at the end of the day, you never know who's going to win. And I ended up. beating somebody who, by like, everybody's account, including mine, is a much better surfer than I am.

[01:15:09] Somebody who I look up to tremendously, and they had a very negative response to being beat by me. And it affected our friendship. It wasn't the only thing, but it seriously affected our friendship for probably a year or two. I mean, these things do come up, and nothing sucks more than to win and have it feel awful.

[01:15:24] Tyler: That sucks.

[01:15:25] Rachel: But it's, it's the reality of the game, and uh, learning How to, how to handle situations like that has made me a better person, whether it's winning graciously, losing graciously, um, the amount of personal struggle and triumph that comes from, say, what if you fall on your first wave, how do you recover and the rest of the heat?

[01:15:53] These are like really valuable life skills.

[01:15:55] Tyler: Absolutely.

[01:15:56] Rachel: Um, so definitely competitive surfing has made me a better person. [01:16:00] Up into a point. Then you get to a point where you're doing too much of it and it can wreck your surfing because you're trying to surf for points like you're doing the sonic the hedgehog collecting rings trying to find every opportunity to do the most stuff.

[01:16:11] Tyler: It

[01:16:13] Rachel: can, it can also hold you back. So it's like this kind of tempering of knowing when to put yourself into the fire and knowing when to take yourself away. Like right now I'm on a competition break. I was the only one I've done recently is the. Knee board national titles, um, which I love doing the knee board contest because talk about a totally different community that you're not going to meet.

[01:16:33] Otherwise, they're the

[01:16:34] Tyler: outcasts seriously.

[01:16:37] Rachel: So the, the downcast, the downtrodden, um, So that's been a really fun community to be a part of. I got sucked into that because I did meet somebody who found out that I knee boarded and that I made my own kneeboards as well. Like, you've gotta come. We only have, that's awesome.

[01:16:54] You know, so many women's

[01:16:55] Tyler: people competing, getting

[01:16:56] Rachel: recruited in. I mean, like right now, I wish I could go to Worlds. It's in J [01:17:00]Bay this year I've qualified. I really wanna go. Why don't you

[01:17:03] Tyler: go

[01:17:04] Rachel: and you know, I'm nervous to spend the money on the ticket. It's a really long way. It kind of would eat into the rest of my travel that year.

[01:17:10] I have plans to go to Europe. I have a dog. I don't know if I can go from South Africa to Europe because there's other contests in Europe. I really want to do like, um, all these are invitational gliding barnacles. I'd love to do again, a queen classic in France. So there's things that I want to do over there.

[01:17:26] Um,

[01:17:27] Tyler: So it's your goofy foot, right?

[01:17:28] Rachel: Yeah, but I'm pretty switch. I mean, on a knee board, there's no such thing as right or left. Also, I'm pretty like fluid between the two. I live in the land of right hand points. So like just for my own entertainment, I've developed a very switch oriented style because it's nice to look at the wave you're surfing sometimes.

[01:17:46] Um, but, uh, yeah, being a part of that community too has been really special. Um,

[01:17:54] Tyler: That's super cool. That's awesome. I mean, the thing I love about [01:18:00] surfing today. Is the many different niches because it's become so big, you know, when I grew up, it felt like it was a monolith almost because the magazines controlled the image and the brands control the image.

[01:18:13] And so you went along with it. But now it's a monolith. Surfing has exploded. It's become the media part has become democratized and we have all these fun little niches now where you're like People who ride finless boards and people who ride the the foamies and people who are kneeboarding It's just like you can kind of and you don't have to belong to either one either

[01:18:34] Rachel: The competitive niche that I would like to see develop more, and I know it has been in the past, I don't know if there's any explicit contest to this extent right now, are like surfer shaper divisions, surfer shaper contests.

[01:18:46] I love the idea of

[01:18:52] focusing, highlighting, and displaying that element and seeing how a group of people riding their own equipment [01:19:00] I know there's been contests to that extent in the past, and there's ones that exist for shaping, um, but I, I would love to see more Shaper divisions.

[01:19:10] Tyler: How great would that be? And a great

[01:19:12] Rachel: way to do mixed gender stuff with, you know?

[01:19:15] Tyler: I mean, how cool to be like, here's, here would be really fun. Alright, Shapers, we're giving you a bunch of fucked up blanks. Yeah. Well, let's see what you can do and then go ride it, you know, like things of that nature where you throw a bit of an obstacle in there too, that it's like, you got to shape one handed or, or

[01:19:32] Rachel: at least that you got a glass at yourself.

[01:19:33] Yeah.

[01:19:34] Tyler: Yeah. Like, I think that would be, cause then it really shows the validity of the shaper and the shapes too, you know, and particularly, you know, there's a lot of shapers that, that surf great and don't get highlighted either, which would be phenomenal. I love that. And again, I love the fact also, you just said, like, there's no gender, you know, uh, division.

[01:19:55] That would be amazing. I would love to see that, that mixed, mixed gender [01:20:00]competitive aspect to it. Yeah.

[01:20:01] Rachel: And I'm not an advocate for, like, I'm a huge advocate for a trans inclusion. I'm very much a, uh, trans inclusionary radical feminist. It's like, if I'm going to un turf the turf term.

[01:20:11] Tyler: Okay.

[01:20:12] Rachel: Um, so when I speak to.

[01:20:16] Um, trans women are women, trans men are men, and they should be welcomed into the division that they belong in.

[01:20:25] Tyler: Yeah. You know? I was going to get into that a little. But

[01:20:29] Rachel: I do love competing in mixed gender contests because, you know, the, the, the way that the judging is done, whether it's intended or not, is highly subjective towards the idea of the way a certain gender should surf.

[01:20:44] So I'm scored much differently if I'm surfing in a mixed gender heat. Um, because there's the way that I surf when I'm viewed against this like style, grace, a feminine idea of what surfing should be in a women's heat. Some of the stuff I'm doing is viewed as [01:21:00] being out of control. When I'm judged in a group of men, it's viewed as being radical or progressive.

[01:21:07] And I can feel that the contest where I've done the best have been not all, but like have been kind of set up that way. So I really appreciate being in that sort of environment. I don't think that's the case for, not that every contest should be that way. But I think that it allows one judging criteria to come through that isn't catered to our preconceived idea of like, what that gender is.

[01:21:30] I

[01:21:32] Tyler: also don't know how much an advantage, um, you know, the different body types have even in surfing, you know, especially particularly longboarding. I think it's technique. Technique is everything, you know,

[01:21:44] Rachel: definitely don't. I mean, it's like, I

[01:21:52] privilege that we have in surfing is it's subjectivity and that we can almost do it. leave that conversation at the door because it [01:22:00] doesn't affect surfing, particularly in longboard surfing. Yeah. Maybe you could make that conver you could make a case for that point of view in shortboarding. It is a bit more physically demanding, but then you have a 14 year old girl, Erin Brooks, like whipping every, like whipping men's butts when she gets the chance to compete against them.

[01:22:18] So I really find that, or uh, uh, Sarah Lerbach, you know, there's just like, there's so much evidence of what women winning in mixed gender situations. Carissa

[01:22:28] Tyler: Moore won multiple heats, beat Daniel Thompson, who is a phenomenal shaper and surfer. You know, it's, it's when she was like 17, you know? So

[01:22:36] Rachel: I see this being thrown around by people who enter, force themselves into the conversation about who should be competing in what division in women's sports.

[01:22:45] Like,

[01:22:46] Tyler: yeah, are you guys

[01:22:46] Rachel: Title IX advocates as well? Like since when have you cared so much about women's sports? You seem to me to be a fisherman from Okay, never mind. I'm not going to go down that route. But, um, a lot of, a lot of times the [01:23:00] argument against trans and gender diversity inclusion in women's division is about, you know, young girls and the fact that they'll never be able to beat a man.

[01:23:11] But it happens all the time. And so in longboarding in particular, we have the benefit of being able to create a space where everyone is welcome because there is, in my mind, not an inherent benefit. Now that's not even getting into conversations about And what's true or not true in those conversations, uh, about biology itself.

[01:23:34] But even if you're going to accept the idea of some kind of male physical superiority and its relevance to this conversation, it does not get bored out in, in competitive surfing. I haven't seen it. And the idea that like, I mean, just these women's divisions are so competitive at the elite level that the idea that they're It's like a bevy of mediocre men willing to be trans for a [01:24:00] day in order and they can just come in and steamroll This competition is insane.

[01:24:04] I mean you one of my best friends Sasha Jane who you've had on the show. Love her to death She's she's

[01:24:11] Tyler: fucking cool

[01:24:12] Rachel: dog sitting my baby right now who is my most precious angel Love her so much. And she is an amazing surfer. And I don't mean to say this to knock. She of course has the capability to win on any day, but so does anybody else.

[01:24:27] The idea that she is unbeatable because she has some inherent physical advantage is just a joke. I mean, it's like nobody's going to protest Honolulu showing up to a contest because she's going to win. It all comes down to this idea of protecting the right to win. And this idea of female mediocrity, this inherent female mediocrity, which I really, really, really resent.

[01:24:47] Because I think it overlaps with the conversation about female shapers of this idea that there is an inherent that and goes back to the second sex and Simone de Beauvoir of like, there's this [01:25:00] inherent male primacy. And I really resent that. And I also resent the idea that women are inherently mediocre.

[01:25:10] Tyler: I, I agree. Like, I, I find it when I hear these arguments and I'm like, But it's techwhere is that line of fairness, then? Well, I mean, why is it fair? Okay, what if you had, like, a 6'4 woman who surfed? Is that an unfair advantage, because she has more weight than someone who's 5 you know? And it's like, no.

[01:25:32] Especially in surfing, there's noyou know, sometimes being bigger, stronger, is actually a disadvantage, even. You know, there are so many different variables that you can't reduce it down to just gender. And that's what I

[01:25:47] Rachel: think. As I was saying before, there's a bias, whether they're aware of it or not, in a lot of judging in the gender divisions, where there's a way that women's surfing is viewed versus men's surfing.

[01:25:56] And there's a prioritization towards like this grace [01:26:00] element. And that is in disservice of some, you know, of, Again, this is a, this is a fake straw man thing, but of the quote unquote, uh, a sign, I don't know, I don't even know how I want to say this because I'm speaking in somebody else's a projection, a straw man projection of somebody else's bias.

[01:26:22] But if you want to say like this idea that like a biological Man, which is again, not accurate to what I'm

[01:26:29] Tyler: saying, has a, has a

[01:26:31] Rachel: physical advantage in a woman's division is just not true.

[01:26:34] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:26:34] Rachel: I would say I have a more conventionally masculine style in my surfing. This is not necessarily favored in a woman's division.

[01:26:42] Not to saying that I'm better than the women I'm surfing against. I

[01:26:45] Tyler: like, but it's,

[01:26:47] Rachel: it's different. And the criteria is subjective and it doesn't necessarily suit somebody. Uh, who doesn't fit into this narrow definition of a woman. Um.

[01:26:57] Tyler: I, I wholeheartedly agree and I'm, [01:27:00] I, you know. Partly bringing this up because it's become a bit of a lightning rod rod again of a topic recently with uh, The longboard, uh, the you know, the u.

[01:27:10] s longboard tour or whatever it's called.

[01:27:12] Rachel: Don't don't make it sound so grandiose there's a bit of like a I think that a lot of that got a lot of credibility because of the intentional choosing of a generic sounding name for This contest. Yeah,

[01:27:24] Tyler: exactly

[01:27:24] Rachel: Uh without getting into many details Too many specifics about these conversations because I don't want to give too much airtime or importance to too much PR to some of these contests that have come out with very poorly thought out, fairly poorly rolled out decisions.

[01:27:41] And I know you on this podcast have talked at length about the details of some of the good policies that have come out, like from the ISA. So what really bothered me about that conversation that came up recently? Was the trying to pass it off onto the ISA as if it was their policy. I mean, for once, we have actually a good [01:28:00] policy that, like, was done in concordance and the right conversations were had.

[01:28:05] Don't act like it doesn't exist. Don't hide behind something and say it's something that isn't. So there's so, um,

[01:28:11] Tyler: And the gaslighting. That's the other thing. So much gaslighting.

[01:28:14] Rachel: The thing that there's a, there's so many things that really bother me about this. And I mean, I have one comment on that thread that has something like 175 responses, never so much, but, uh, there's this, these bad faith actors who do not have women's best interest in their heart using my name in order to promote what I see as their bigotry.

[01:28:42] And it, it's a common occurrence. I think it overlaps. Again, like with the way that we see a redefinition around what anti Semitism is to be anti Zionism. And these are two things that I really resent as a woman. And as a Jew, I really resent this hate being spread [01:29:00] in my name. And more than anything else, this is what really bothers me.

[01:29:04] I do not like people who do not have women's best interest in heart, defining what it is to be a woman. Um, because what has started happening and you see it on this post from the quote unquote, American longboard association, um, because I don't agree with the view of what a woman is that they are representing.

[01:29:24] It's like my. my woman card has been revoked. So there's been a, because I don't fit their definition of a woman, I'm also now not a woman because I don't fit somebody's definition of a Jew. Now I'm an anti Semite. Is it not being done in my name to protect me? So why am I, as a competitive female, long border now no longer included in this group that you're speaking to protect?

[01:29:51] I find that highly offensive.

[01:29:52] Tyler: Absolutely. Uh, particularly, I can relate, as a Jew, also, you know, with the [01:30:00] Zionist, anti Zionist, you know, kind of argument. And I don't like people speaking for me, especially when they don't have my best interests at heart. You know, and they're using it, and they're weaponizing this whole thing for their own, uh, their own agenda.

[01:30:13] Which has nothing to do with the benefit of Jews over the world or women in competitive surfing.

[01:30:21] Rachel: It prevents also the actual women of competitive surfing having a conversation with each other. And this is what really bothers me is the, with the, um, the rage baiting and whatever The people in the conversation with the loudest points of view have nothing to do with competitive surfing.

[01:30:39] I do think that if you are a female competitive longboarder and you have an opinion on this, and it's not one that I necessarily agree with, you should have the ability to speak and we should be able to have a conversation. But when you have this like hyper polarization happening, it drowns out those voices and it makes the people who might disagree But [01:31:00] want to know more and have a conversation unable to enter it.

[01:31:02] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:31:02] Rachel: it makes it in just like these particularly these public declarations of policy around these surf contests are Launched in a way that does harm.

[01:31:14] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:31:14] Rachel: it's not even necessarily about the policy and whether it's good or bad it's about it's a dehumanization and a unwillingness to see the person at the other end of the conversation and it's a Yeah, it, it doesn't allow us to talk with each other and it, it really drives me crazy because I, I would love for it to be a real conversation.

[01:31:38] Yeah,

[01:31:39] Tyler: it, it's frustrating, especially like when they roll it out and they, they blatantly say it in the policy where they don't need to say it. Like the Mexi logfest when they go and announce like, you know, this is gender specific in each, each division or whatever. And you're like, what? You said that to get a rise out of people.

[01:31:58] You didn't say that because you're trying [01:32:00] to let people know you're doing it to harm people.

[01:32:03] Rachel: Well, it's funny with a contest like Mexilog, which has been, and you know, I'm going to do the respect dance a little bit because Israel has done great things for longboarding in, in Mexico. And, you know, I don't want to just be jumping down the throats of these people, but, um, You know, that contest has never, my criticism of that contest has always been, it's kind of like been a butt surfing Instagram contest for like, who looks the hottest in a bikini much.

[01:32:33] This is probably going to be the one, one of the things I end up wanting to cut out of the interview, but it really, I think what's at threat here and why you get so much hostility from a certain type of guy. Around this policy is it's a defense of the male gaze and its place in surfing and the idea that like It's a it's a defense of the ability to gaze upon a hot girl in a [01:33:00] bikini and like objectify her

[01:33:01] Tyler: yeah,

[01:33:02] Rachel: and I think that they're so threatened by the idea of trans woman entering that space is because Well, what if you don't know?

[01:33:10] Tyler: Yeah. Then you've been ogling

[01:33:11] Rachel: somebody that you might, you know,

[01:33:14] Tyler: And then you question your own sexuality, and then it's like makes you feel insecure and all that ridiculous stuff that these guys have. Yes. So

[01:33:20] Rachel: there's kind of like a making obvious what was like kind of hidden under the table, uh, about that one in particular.

[01:33:28] And then I think that sometimes too, not, not that I think that, The beliefs are all a put on. I think people can come to beliefs that I disagree with all on their own, but a contest that had absolutely very, a contest that had very little reach. And this is not maxi log. I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about the newer one that has come up to have a problematic policy in my view on that stale is what great PR for them.

[01:33:56] How much attention did they get to that post and that content, the [01:34:00] engagement through the roof.

[01:34:01] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:34:01] Rachel: And, uh, Whereas that was a conversation that could have been had one on one.

[01:34:08] Tyler: They could have gone right to Sasha and talked instead of blowing it out and Treat her like a human being.

[01:34:14] Rachel: You want to make the argument that this is about defending women's sport, not about hatred, then treat this Treat this amazing person and this amazing surfer like a fucking human being.

[01:34:23] Oh, you have their email. You have their Instagram. You have a million ways to contact them. You have had their entry fee for two months. You've known that they were entering for two months. You have all of their contact details. Reach out to them in person. These conversations, when they're had publicly in this way, where the rhetoric gets to and the rage baiting causes so much harm.

[01:34:45] And these conversational spaces when they're done on Instagram like that are not safe spaces for trans or gender diverse people to enter the conversation. So it is up to, you know, the cis women like me to be out there, uh, having this [01:35:00] conversation and in the way that like the civil rights movement needed allies, because it's dangerous for them to be there.

[01:35:07] I mean, The idea of like, oh, well, who's being harmed because they're being kept out of a surf contest. It's like, it's not about that. The harm is being done on this thread. And to think that there aren't real world consequences for that language is absurd. You have kids in America being beat up at school.

[01:35:26] Tyler: Bullied. They're committing suicide. They are depressed. So who's really at harm

[01:35:32] Rachel: here? You know, the idea of a 16 year old girl who might be beaten a contest. Well, that 16 year old girl was going to be beaten that contest or they were going to win. It's anybody's day. It doesn't, if, if you want to use teenagers as your excuse.

[01:35:49] For why you can't let people into the contest, then maybe we need to be having a larger conversation about pro divisions and whether or not there should be an age limit if it's so [01:36:00]precarious, because if you're gonna say a 13 year old girl shouldn't be competing against X, Y or Z, well, then maybe that 13 if that 13 year old girl can't handle the idea of being beat, then they shouldn't be competing at a professional level.

[01:36:12] And we are talking about the professional level here, and there's this, like, this idea of protecting the right to win. It just drives me crazy. Like, is somebody's life not important? If you really believe in the value of competitive surfing and surfing in general, why would you want to deny that to somebody?

[01:36:29] And if you're willing to create a hierarchy of who gets access and who gets denied that, then you're making a judgment about who is and isn't a person.

[01:36:37] Tyler: Exactly. Well said. I really appreciate that. Um, we're running out of time, but I Oh, that was fast! Yeah, but I want to, uh I want to just ask, like, and on a little lighter note,

[01:36:52] Rachel: Yeah, please.

[01:36:53] Tyler: Um, what did you miss about New York when you weren't here that you came back now and [01:37:00] see and kind of feel like, Oh, I kind of miss this, besides the pizza.

[01:37:06] Rachel: The pizza. Um, I mean, the people first and foremost, there's like a vitality to the conversation that I have here, um, which I really love, the culture.

[01:37:16] Uh, is, can't be beat, but my favorite thing to do in the city is put on my headphones and push around something on wheels, like skateboard, and like sing at the top of my lungs. I just love like singing in public while moving. What are we singing?

[01:37:31] Tyler: What are we singing lately? What's on the rotation?

[01:37:33] Whatever's on

[01:37:33] Rachel: the, whatever's on the playlist, like, uh. I think yesterday I was like, uh, belt in come Monday, anything, whatever comes on. Um, so I love that there's like a vitality to like being in public here that you don't have public spaces in the same way in Southern California. Um, there's like this, point of exhaustion you reach here from [01:38:00] like walking six miles a day and being constantly in public that like when you just get to a seat, you're like, able to access this level of relaxation in public that like you can't experience otherwise.

[01:38:13] If you can get a

[01:38:13] Tyler: subway seat during rush hour, you're stoked. You're like totally relaxed. You got your headphones on. You're like, I'm in my bubble.

[01:38:20] Rachel: Yeah. And, um, there's the. You know, even the, the surf here, you know, when it's happening, it is good. It's really fun, but it almost doesn't matter because the excitement and the novelty of surfing in the city is like going and having a session before taking the subway into work and then being like in the heart of it all, it feels amazing.

[01:38:45] Um, another thing that I've been kind of tripping out on is like in Ventura. I'm one of like, at least 20 shapers. There's so many of us here. There's so few. And here there's. Definitely, as far as I'm aware of, no other, like, [01:39:00] women shapers.

[01:39:01] Tyler: To my knowledge, I, I don't know of, of many. Nothing. You know, it's, it's, it's a rarity.

[01:39:06] I love that categorization. Yeah. But

[01:39:08] Rachel: it's, it's a trip to be in a city this scale and be the only one doing something.

[01:39:14] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

[01:39:16] Rachel: Because again, in Ventura, it's, it's kind of quotidian to be a surfboard shaper, even to be a woman surfboard shaper, you know, but like to find something you can be the only one doing in New York City.

[01:39:27] Tyler: I know. Wow. There's a reason you can't make a living as a surfboard shaper and live in New York City. And any, any, uh, female is probably too smart to realize like, yeah, no, whereas guys were maybe a little dumber, you know, a little denser. And we're like, yeah, I could do it. Maybe I could make this work. You know, but, um, yeah, it is.

[01:39:52] You know, it's funny, like, I, um, we've struggled, like, to ask to find women shapers. We used to do this, um, surfboard [01:40:00] show called It Doesn't Not Work. And the idea was I love that title. It's great. And the idea is basically all these homegrown shapers bring their weirdest designs and we would show it off.

[01:40:11] And It was always like, how do we find female shapers? I would ask Davina, who runs the Women's Surf Film Festival, I'd ask other people and no one locally, at least, that we could get. And it was always very frustrating because I wanted it. I wanted it because I know You've got a few

[01:40:26] Rachel: on this coast. You've got Catherine Girard.

[01:40:28] You have, oh god, I forget her name, from Urchin. Yeah. Um, and I, you know, I'm sure there's, there's so many more. There's so many. This is like ten

[01:40:35] Tyler: years ago, you know, we're talking also.

[01:40:37] Rachel: And really in the last five years, I think you've had this explosion because, you know, you, there is some truth to the like, you can't be what you can't see.

[01:40:45] Tyler: Exactly. You have to see it to, to visualize it. And then you're like, Oh, I can do this too. It's super huge. So I, I, yeah, the surfboard show was great, but it was always like, Oh, right. I want to get more and I was hoping to inspire more, more [01:41:00] females to, to get into shaping, but it's, it's a daunting task too.

[01:41:04] It's scary, you know, that putting that holding that planer. I mean, I just shaped my first, well, half shaped my first surfboard, you know, and it's what did you make? I made, I made a replica of Josh, Josh Hall long fish that I had and just made it into a quad and we made the template and everything, did it full, super nuts.

[01:41:22] And uh, you know, uh, my friend Jimmy O'Brien let me shape one half and he did the other. He would show me and then I would do it. And so, yeah,

[01:41:29] Rachel: so it's like a game of telephone with a skip fry. Basically. Yeah,

[01:41:32] Tyler: it was exactly, it was a total game. It was an echo of a skip fry. But, uh, yeah, one half the board's not good, but that skill, that planer is so intimidating.

[01:41:42] I actually

[01:41:43] Rachel: think that, uh, the imperfections and the slight deviations from what would be like computer perfection are what make a magic board. The little twists, the slight differences from rail to rail, because I think of it like programming in a dynamic instability that gets the thing moving. Whereas like if it's, [01:42:00] if it's too perfect and too symmetrical, there's nothing really to get it unstuck.

[01:42:05] Tyler: Aki, would tell you, his 1984 board from Rusty was, had one fin canted all the way in and the other straight and it was the magic board. You know? It's like, those imperfections. Yeah, you really don't know where the magic

[01:42:16] Rachel: is going to come from.

[01:42:17] Tyler: It's true. It's really true. So that's again,

[01:42:18] Rachel: it goes back to the like, don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough because you may be shaping out what makes that board perfect.

[01:42:27] Tyler: You know who disagrees with that?

[01:42:29] Rachel: Who?

[01:42:30] Tyler: What's his name? The, the, the character in Whiplash who says. The two most destructive words in the English language, good enough. Charlie Parker would never be what he was if it was good enough.

[01:42:42] Rachel: Now that being said, I like to think that my standard is always like to have an unrealistic expectation of perfection.

[01:42:49] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:42:50] Rachel: It's not that I'm not reaching for that. And it's not that there's not a very high standard in which the blank needs to meet before it leaves my bay.

[01:42:56] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[01:42:57] Rachel: And for me, Time is irrelevant. [01:43:00] It's about whether or not it's reached that standard of perfection, but that perfection does not necessarily mean like a computer's idea of perfection.

[01:43:08] It doesn't necessarily mean symmetry. Um, it means perfect feel. It means perfect poetry. It means the features of the board having a conversation with each other that is seamless. Um, but yeah, it's not necessarily are the dimensions completely exactly what I think they should be. Is this side exactly what this side is?

[01:43:27] Tyler: I like the idea of perfectly imperfect. Yeah. That's what my wife and I say to each other. We're perfectly imperfect for each other. Um, Rachel, this was such a freaking fun and fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed talking with you. Um, where can our listeners find you when, where can they order boards?

[01:43:48] This is your chance for the shameful plug here.

[01:43:51] Rachel: All right. Like I said before, don't go to my website if you're expecting something relevant. Um, the best place to start is my Instagram. I [01:44:00] have two accounts. One with photos of me surfing and one with just boards, because I know that, you know, sometimes, you know, people just want the board.

[01:44:09] So you can either reach me at Lord boards. That's l o r d b o r d s, or R Lord Raw, RLOR, DCO, RAW. Uh, both work. Um, you can always just slide me a dm. If you wanna contact me, you can also email me.

[01:44:27] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:44:28] Rachel: R lord69@gmail.com. But oh wait, let's cancel. Clear. Delete. Take that out. Six,

[01:44:33] Tyler: nine,

[01:44:34] Rachel: cancel that, edit that out of the podcast.

[01:44:36] Do not include my email. You can reach me on, or you, your

[01:44:39] Tyler: phone number? What? No . Yeah, no,

[01:44:41] Rachel: you, you can reach me on Instagram. That's usually the most. proof way to get at me. Um, I'm located in Ventura, California. If you're in the area, you're always welcome to come by the shop and again, hit me up on Instagram.

[01:44:54] Come see me. If you're in New York city and this comes out in the next week, you're welcome to come by [01:45:00] Pilgrim and watch me shape. I welcome it. Um, that's one of the benefits of the residency. Um, have being able to have the customs clients come in is amazing, but it is open to the public. Um, and. Yeah.

[01:45:13] Tyler: All right.

[01:45:14] And, uh, listeners gotta give a quick shout out to Joe, our engineer here and the newsstand studio for making this happen and making this great kind of atmosphere for great conversation. Uh, swell Season Surf Radio. You can find us at our website, www dot swell season, surf radio.com. Uh, our Instagram is at swell season surf radio.

[01:45:36] And, uh, yeah. And, uh, don't forget to hit like and subscribe. And all that fun stuff. And, uh, yeah, we'll see you all down the line soon. Thank you. And, Rachel, thank you again for coming on. So fun. Oh, yeah. And

[01:45:47] Rachel: I'm going to throw in, uh, two more quick, I forgot to say, I do have a website for my art, rlord. org.

[01:45:54] And if you do want to go to my website, it's lordboards. com.

[01:45:57] Tyler: There you go, listeners. All right. So, [01:46:00] uh, if you want to get an awesome shapeboard, Go reach out to Miss Lord here, and, uh, yeah, we'll see you all down the line. Thank you. Thank

[01:46:08]Rachel:you so much, gu