Surf Bugle with Ben Mondy

Surf Bugle with Ben Mondy

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[00:00:00] Tyler: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Since launching its first Super Ocean [00:02:00] Dive Watch back in 1957, Breitling has cultivated a special connection with the surf community, one based on a sense of adventure and a shared love of the sea. Many of you would have noticed surfing legends such as Kelly Slater, Steph Gilmore, Sally Fitzgibbons, sporting their watches lately in ad campaigns. So it only seemed a natural fit that Breitling would release their newest offering, a coffee table book titled The Breitling Book of Surfing, a ride to the heart of the community.

[00:02:33] It's a beautifully illustrated journey through modern surf culture, guided by international surfers and communities that define its inclusive and passionate nature. The book was written by legendary surf journalist and broadcaster, Ben Mundy. Mundy grew up surfing, pulling, and surfing. into closeout barrels at Newcastle, Australia. After completing an economics degree, he swapped a finance bro [00:03:00] job to become the deputy editor for Track Surfing Magazine in Australia from 2000 to 2005. In 2006, he moved to Europe and became a partner in Action Sports and Adventure Marketing Agency, All Conditions Media. And since leaving the agency, he has continued to write for the world's biggest surf print and online publications, including the Surfer's Journal, the WSL, Trax, Surfline, and has provided content for numerous outlets such as Red Bull, Billabong, Rip Curl, and many more. When he's not writing for his substack. The surf bugle, which I highly recommend. You can find Ben commentating on the major surfing events for the WSL. And he also helmed the BBC's TV coverage of the surfing's debut at the Tokyo Olympic games. We got to talk about that in this episode, for sure. And Ben is an extremely well respected figure in the surf world.

[00:03:57] And I'm really stoked to have him on the [00:04:00] show as our guest for this episode of the Swell Season Surf Podcast. Benjamin Baramundi, welcome to the show.

[00:04:08] Ben: Wow. Thanks Tyler. Yeah. That's a, that's the biggest big up I've had in a while and a long, long time, mate. So I really appreciate the kind words and, um, yeah, I'm stoked to be here and stoked to be talking to you. And now it's a bit of a. Look, you've gone from Carissa Moore to Ben Mundy. It's a bit of a drop off.

[00:04:28] I'm not going to lie, but I'm, I'm just happy to be in such exalted company.

[00:04:33] Tyler: Oh, well, I mean, don't worry. I mean, I have, um, you know, some, every Joe Schmo too on, so don't,

[00:04:39] don't,

[00:04:40] Ben: Good. Yeah. Everyone's got their niche.

[00:04:44] Tyler: Everyone's got their niche, you know, like, Oh, I'm just a, I'm just a podcast whore. So don't worry. I'll take whatever comes my way.

[00:04:50] Ben: Good. I like it. I mean, I've come to the right place

[00:04:54] Tyler: Um, Ben, uh, dude, I'm like, Super stoked. I mean, like I'm [00:05:00] a, I'm a bit of a surf journal fanboy, you know, so I tend to get excited when I meet surf journalists. It was something I wanted to do as a kid when I went to university for creative nonfiction writing until Alan Weisbacher, writer of Captain Zero, told me, don't bother kid, there's no money in it.

[00:05:17] And

[00:05:19] turn me away from it.

[00:05:21] Ben: Yeah, he was right.

[00:05:25] Tyler: I, I want to, I guess we should probably start talking about the book first because it's, it's, it's beautifully done. Uh, the photos are incredible. The interviews are really nice. And, um, yeah, and it's also done by Rizzoli, which, you know, has been kind of pumping out the surf books lately, which is kind of cool. But I wanted to first ask, like, why did Breitling want to make this book? Like, what? I mean, what conversation they have, they thought, yeah, let's make a coffee table book about surfing.

[00:05:56] Ben: Yeah, it's, it's a good question. I mean, I wasn't [00:06:00] a part of those early conversations about exactly where to do it, but I do know that, um, you know, they've been heavily involved in surfing with, with their ambassadors, um, through Kelly and Steph and Sally, as you mentioned, they've got a, a quite a wide range.

[00:06:14] They've been heavily involved in the ocean really since they started off. And I just think, um, I think they really wanted to showcase, you know, What surfing is and what it can be. I think they've sort of come across it and started to like the authenticity of it. That's a big word. They, all those brands uses, but, um.

[00:06:31] You know, when, when you're flogging 10 grand watches, you got to question it. But, um, yeah, I think they just, they've been involved in it. They found out it was through a, an agency over here in London actually called spring studios and they had a creative team and they've been there since the start. And they, I sort of had the sort of creative now to make it happen.

[00:06:50] But B I think also. enough sort of knowledge to step back and let sort of, you know, other surfers do it because you know, you can get it so wrong, can't you? It's always [00:07:00] a, it's always a, um, such a worry that, you know, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna take the money. Of course you are, but then if it ends up being, you know, your name's attached to it.

[00:07:08] So yeah, I think it's a long answer to a short question. I think they just have seen through, uh, what surfing is, what it can be, and they've sort of bought into it. And then, um, they decided to Yeah, with Rosoli's finesse and, and the imagery in their sort of class, make something, yeah, quite substantial, which, yeah, I was stoked to be a part of.

[00:07:26] Yeah,

[00:07:26] Tyler: Yeah, it, it's interesting, it can go horribly wrong for a, a non endemic brand coming into surfing. And we've, we've seen many failed attempts at that. And, uh, you know, also like, and surfers have attached themselves. I mean, Matt George, we'll talk about in God's hands, whatever. But, uh,

[00:07:48] Ben: at least he owns it.

[00:07:49] Tyler: Yeah, he does own it.

[00:07:51] I give him credit for it. But Yeah, it's a really beautiful book and I guess, like, one of the things I really enjoyed about [00:08:00] it, or liked, is the theme of inclusivity in the book and, and community. And those seem to be the, the kind of focal points. And was that something you kind of pushed towards? Or was that something they were kind of asking for?

[00:08:17] Ben: You know, that was, that was their idea. You know, as ever, I can't claim any of the very good ideas about any of this, but they, they came to me with that idea and that's what, that made it a lot easier for me to go, okay, yeah, like that's, that's, that's, That's important to me too. Um, and it's a good in and it tells a broad story.

[00:08:36] So yeah, I think that was pretty key to making my life so much easier. Um, and I think the surfers are more happy to talk about that side of it because no matter where you are, where you're from and. I learned a lot more about all the different surfing communities all around the world through this book.

[00:08:55] Like, you know, it's so important to surfers where they, you know, where they grew up and how it [00:09:00] molded them. And that people are really happy to talk about that and, and how it's changed. So yeah, it was, it was their idea, but it just made that job of making it, yeah, like real and not an in God's hand abomination.

[00:09:13] It made it, um, it made it a lot easier and a lot more, you know, just a pleasant experience. Yeah.

[00:09:21] Tyler: I think like, it's interesting because like, I feel like it, you know, the, the, the, what's interesting about it is like surfing has changed so much over the years and, and particularly in the last, I think, 10 years, it's, it's gone through a big change, um, you know, for many different reasons, but one of them is, is that inclusivity aspect of it, which us growing up, that wasn't part of surfing. You know, inclusivity was exclusive and you had to earn and, and knock down the door to get in included almost, you know, you had to, you know, pay your dues and [00:10:00] now it's something totally the opposite in some ways and, uh, and I was like, do you feel that there is a struggle between those two, between the, the legacy of that and, and way surfing is today?

[00:10:14] Ben: Um, yeah, I mean, you see, you see bits and pieces that might be more fragmented and I think you're right. That inclusivity aspect of it is, is brilliant. And yeah, we, and I grew up in small surf town in Newcastle, Redhead, and it was a great place to grow up in creative ways, but yeah, the lineup was pretty gnarly.

[00:10:32] It was pretty. Um, you know, it was based on talent and aggression. That they're the two things that got you your pecking order, which in any, in normal life, they shouldn't be, um, You know, how could you do a top turn or how, how aggressive you are? Shouldn't be a real, a marker of yourself as a personality.

[00:10:51] Um,

[00:10:52] Tyler: He's a real asshole, but man, what a cutback.

[00:10:55] Ben: yeah, so he's cool. So he's the top of the tree. Um, but [00:11:00] over time and I've seen it more and more, especially in, you know, you see it in the communities or older surfers learning to surf, I've seen it over here in Europe quite a lot where there's just these, you know, they're not. They're not out there to hassle.

[00:11:12] They don't, they don't even recognize that form of that, that old hierarchy, you know, that hierarchy. They sort of just went, I don't want any, I don't want anything to do with it. And understandably, and I think it's, it has bred a, yeah, just a mellower vibe. And, um, you know, when it does come up, When people sort of get through it and they don't brush up against it, sure, there's a bit of rough edges that get sawn off and there's the old school that's still carrying on in their sort of silly ways.

[00:11:39] But I think on the most part, it's the new inclusive crew that are making the world a better place and enjoying their surfing a whole lot more, which is the main thing.

[00:11:50] Tyler: would say they're adding lifeblood to surf culture because there's only so much they can keep repurposing the styles and trends in [00:12:00] the industry, right? Like, it's like Quicksilver's doing 2001 designs again, and then in a few years it'll be 70s design. Maybe it's good that we have new blood coming into surfing to, uh, make it more lively and enjoyable for a younger audience.

[00:12:17] Because right now, where I'm standing, surfing feels pretty old to me. Looking at both you and I with our grey

[00:12:22] beards, you know?

[00:12:23] Ben: I mate. Yeah.

[00:12:24] Tyler: Salt N

[00:12:24] Pepa. Eh.

[00:12:32] Ben: um, but you're right, and you know, especially for. For women surfers, I mean, the change in the last 10 years, I just got so much further to go. But even that shift has been massive and that'll continue to, you know, you'll just get more and more numbers and more and more women surfing that'll, that'll change the lineup for the better.

[00:12:49] Um, and yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, as, as you say, those people come in and it's, it's just a new way of looking at it. And yeah, as you say, it's [00:13:00] more open minded. It's a bit more about, you know, enjoying themselves and forgetting all the, you know, the. Yeah, other elements and the cultural aspect of it.

[00:13:08] Well, they just bring new aspects of culture, don't you? Like, surf culture is, it needs a, you know, it's, it's been pretty much on its own path for quite a long time. And it hasn't, hasn't changed a lot. So yeah, I'm all for it.

[00:13:22] Tyler: Do you think the, like the breakdown of surf media and surf industry has maybe helped that inclusive attitude, perhaps like less gatekeeping, because for years when we grew up, the magazines kind of, and the industry in itself dictated what surfers look like, acted like it was almost a bit of a monolith. And in the last 20 or so years, that's slowly been deconstructed and broken down and [00:14:00] democratized.

[00:14:01] Ben: keys. I would, I would say as

[00:14:03] Tyler: You were one of those gatekeepers,

[00:14:05] weren't you?

[00:14:06] Ben: exactly. Exactly. And I remember my, um, sisters giving me absolute grief about some

[00:14:13] Tyler: No way.

[00:14:14] Ben: the magazine. It was misogynistic. Um, it was, you know, it wasn't outdated, but it was already, you know, on its way out.

[00:14:20] So, and then there was the captains of industry that. It had all the, they had the branding and they had the coin and now it's sort of just wild surfers. It got really rich and then got greedy. So yeah, and I think now that with that's broken down and now the surfers have taken charge and the social media is a huge thing where the athletes can, um, portray themselves in their own way.

[00:14:43] Um, and, and they tend to be pretty good at that stuff, aren't they? They don't, they don't set out to be controversial or, um. Too wild and I portray a pretty clean living kind of a

[00:14:56] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Ben: of inclusive right on kind of a, [00:15:00] even if it's an image, it's still a good one for the kids. So I think that's helped as well and sort of breaking that down.

[00:15:05] You know, you might lose a bit of the edge, you lose a bit of the subversion, which we need, which I like to sort of pedal a bit. That's, I don't mind that little niche myself, but you know, but I sort of. Ah, you know what, if that's, uh, we lose a bit of that, uh, the, the gains are, I think, uh, are probably greater.

[00:15:24] Um, and there's just less and less people sort of, you know, yeah. As you said, the power has been, been shared, I think.

[00:15:32] Tyler: With that, like, how did you settle upon these subjects for the book? Because it's, it's, it's a really, uh, listeners like this book has a wide variety of people and you have like, You know, your people like Kelly Slater and Steph Gilmore and Mikey February, who's my Mikey February is like heavily featured in this with the intro and the profile piece. Um, but then you have these lesser known people who I [00:16:00] really, for me, that was actually more enjoyable and I mean, as a surfer who's grown up. Devouring every type of surf content, as you can see behind me. Um, you know, these Vrakas, Paul D'Avigno, was it Yoni Corso, I

[00:16:20] think, and, uh, Freddie Meadows, Julian Switzer, these are people I've never heard of. And they bring a whole other element to this book, which I think is really nice. And I was curious, like, how you went about finding these people.

[00:16:35] Ben: yeah, well, it was a bit of a, I mean, again, I'd like to give a lot of credit to Breitling and to Spring Studios. They have ambassadors, so they're sort of aligned with a lot of these surfers. That was quite quick up. And they had a list of, of other people, um, that were interesting or they thought interesting.

[00:16:51] And, and I knew some of them, but not all of them like yourself. I, you know, I hadn't sort of talked to Effie or, um, the Greek surfer or, um, You know, much so [00:17:00] we sort of had a longer list and I was really stoked that, yeah, they had that breadth of, you know, of, of different type of surfers and different type of communities.

[00:17:08] Um, and then, yeah, I think after we started talking to a few, you sort of, you know, worked out quick, quite quickly that these guys had, or girls had to be in the book that was relevant as, as, you know, not as relevant as Kelly Slater, but they just had a different, a different story and a different take on it.

[00:17:25] And

[00:17:25] Tyler: I would, I would almost argue they could be more relevant in some ways, you know, like their experience is probably closer to my experience than Kelly Slater's experience of surfing.

[00:17:36] Ben: Yeah, I would, I would say so. I think that, you know, uh, it resonates with, I mean, Kelly said such a unique and sort of, you know, way he's gone about his surfing world and his surfing life. So, yeah, it's pretty hard to relate to and you've heard it all before though. I think we found a little bit. A little bit more about him, but yeah, you're right.

[00:17:54] You know, these stories of just surfers who discovered surfing in the most unlikely [00:18:00] of spots where it's outside Rome. Um, you know, Robbie D'Amico is an Italian surfer who grew up just outside Rome and he, he was from a fishing village and he saw a surfboard and then managed to get his hand on one. And then he used to wait a massive ferry that would go from Rome to Sardinia.

[00:18:19] do a U, like a U turn out in front of his place and wait for the wakes to come in at 4. 15 and get three waves. You know,

[00:18:25] Tyler: That's

[00:18:25] Ben: and there was stuff like that. He just got, he only surfed ahead of the timetable, you know, like when he was like nine and you know, and it's gone on

[00:18:34] Tyler: technically the proto wave pool surfer

[00:18:36] almost.

[00:18:37] Ben: he was way out of his curve, this Robbie, that lovely man, mountain of a man.

[00:18:42] And, um. You know, so stuff like that, or as you said, with Greece or in Sweden, where these, you know, pretty like yourself, maybe Tyler grew up in a, so many, you know, sort of barriers to entry or obstacles, whether it's the climate or the crowd or the, or the lack of waves. And yet still [00:19:00] found a way to where surfing was just put front and center of their lives from a young age.

[00:19:04] I just decided this is who I am and what I'm going to be. And so to hear it from these really interesting spots was, yeah, it was, I, that was one of the most parts I enjoyed the most, to be honest.

[00:19:14] Tyler: It's open. You can talk a little bit about a couple of the surfers, like, cause I, I really, Effie Vrakos particularly, I was really interested in with Greece because you don't hear much about surf in Greece. I was,

[00:19:28] I was there last year in Santorini and found a really perfect setup. And like, there was like a wave kind of breaking, a right hand point break.

[00:19:39] And I was like, Oh, I wonder if there are boards around, you know? It's like, you see the potential, but there's really not much of a community there. And also, it's so spread out because of the islands. I imagine it's really hard to get that sense of community almost amongst Greek surfers.

[00:19:57] Ben: Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, well, it's [00:20:00] right. I mean, there's waves like all waves in the med there.

[00:20:03] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:20:04] Ben: I mean, they come in winter. So most people obviously go to Greece in the summer and it's, it's beautiful and hot and sunny Greece when it's raining and stormy is the Not as much fun to hang out. That's when the waves come.

[00:20:16] Um, but they're short lived and they're fickle and you know, they don't, they don't last long and then the tide has to be at the right time. So it's, yeah, it's just a really difficult place to learn to surf, but, um, yeah, Effie was a, She was like, her parents, her mum was a model, was quite a famous model. Her dad was like a keen windsurfer, so they were into all sorts of sports.

[00:20:37] And then she sort of, one summer she, they were traveling, they used to travel to France, so Hosseker and sort of saw surfing what it was and enjoyed it. So when she came back, she was on the lookout for it. And, but she, that was near Athens. But she tells a story of sort of getting, you know, stood up on a board and getting into it.

[00:20:55] And then she bumped into another 16 year old guy who was a [00:21:00] surfer and he was going off to travel for a month, going surfing. And she couldn't believe that, you know, there was another surfer in this little town and it ended up being a husband and they got together to still together this day, they, you know, like started a surf shop and that became the little hub of it.

[00:21:14] So it's like things like that, you know, and she says, What's a quote in the book was, I don't know if my love, my surfing story is a love story. My love story is a surfing story. Cause it was so sort of intertwined, which is pretty cute. And that's pretty cute. Tyler

[00:21:29] Tyler: Oh my God. That's romcom

[00:21:31] material right there.

[00:21:33] Ben: it was. Um, but, and since then it's grown, you know, now there's a little bit, you know, that, that her kids surf, there's where she lives as a couple of little left hand points, sometimes we have days where we just get, you know, Go in and surf.

[00:21:43] It's a little left hand point on our own. Just us, our friends, our family, that's our community. We go back and then cook lamb on the barbecue under olive trees. And it still sounded like this idyllic sort of beautiful, you know, circle that I just didn't know existed. And, and so, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, exactly.

[00:21:58] There's, there's [00:22:00] people out there surfing in spots that you just never dream of and loving it.

[00:22:04] Tyler: I feel like those places are like going back in time for surfing, almost, you know, like

[00:22:10] they kind of, uh, you can almost transport yourself to like the sixties or fifties, even when there were only a handful of surfers and, and, you know, in different places and you had more of that community that feel and everyone knew each other.

[00:22:25] So I think to me, that's always an appeal for these like far off. Kind of unexpected surf locations. I think it's like going to those places. It's like taking a step back in time for surfing, which is really, really cool and really interesting.

[00:22:43] Ben: Yeah, for sure. And even, um, when I was talking to Mikey February and he, um, he grew up in Cape town and, um, that his local community, his dad was, um, you know, he's a black surfer and he started surfing when you weren't even allowed on the people of color, weren't allowed on the beach. So he went, [00:23:00] overcome all these, you know, not just, you know, barriers to entry, but like literally.

[00:23:05] Tyler: Literal barriers to

[00:23:07] Ben: yeah, literal hateful discrimination and law to keep, to follow his passion. And, and, and Mikey, you know, grabbed it from his dad and he always found where he's a little grew up in Muesenberg where there was lots of person that looked like him surfing when there wasn't so many in his school and stuff.

[00:23:22] But it's a bit by the side of the point when he travels now all over Africa, he's, he's, you know, he's, he's always up and down both coasts and he's helping out underprivileged kids. And he said, he goes to these spots in the middle of nowhere. You wouldn't even think. Had a few servers and he was having a surf with this bunch of kids up on this point, somewhere up near Angola, I think.

[00:23:40] And they were just shooting really close to the rocks as fast as they can. He's like, what, you know, he was doing all these Mickey stuff, you know, freestyle zigzagging and looking cool and doing these incredible turns. And I would just, he goes, what are you doing guys? And they're like, and he said, their idea of like fun was going fast near the rocks.

[00:23:57] That's what like, really that was there. Yeah. That [00:24:00] was their thing. And he was like, You just come across a whole new way of approaching like waves. Not even cause I haven't seen anything. I've never seen footage or anything. It was just this whole new way of looking at, at a wave and that's what flighted their boat and he was just cracking out going, well, yeah, whatever works, dudes, you know, but, um, so yeah, that nascent surf cultures.

[00:24:20] It's, it's intriguing.

[00:24:22] Tyler: I love that. I'd love the fact that. Well, I love the fact that surfing can be whatever, right? Like it doesn't, it's, it's, it could be whatever you want, which I think Mikey February says in the book, you know,

[00:24:34] and and I love that there are these, uh, other takes on what surfing can be and what performance can be even, right?

[00:24:44] Like we've been so conditioned over the years with the magazines and movies of what good surfing looks like, but to someone else, like who may not have access to that, Running as close as you can to the rocks as fast as you can sounds pretty freaking fun and, [00:25:00] and kind of Mason Ho esque actually.

[00:25:03] You

[00:25:03] know?

[00:25:04] Ben: yeah, just a whole new approach to something that you've seen a million times before is always exciting.

[00:25:11] Tyler: I, I always thought it'd be fun, uh, to watch a pro tour of surfers surfing waves with obstacles in them like boulders and reefs and rocks sticking out. So it's like more more like dangerous. And I think I kind of

[00:25:26] agree with

[00:25:27] Ben: I'd be like Total Wipeout kind of thing like or Ninja Warrior sort of style.

[00:25:31] Tyler: Ninja warrior surf comp. There we go.

[00:25:35] Ben: I'd fucking watch that, mate. I'd

[00:25:36] Tyler: I would totally watch that Are you kidding me?

[00:25:39] Ben: Hey, let's keep that quiet, mate. We want to pitch that to some, uh,

[00:25:43] Tyler: Let's talk

[00:25:43] to the WSL specialty event.

[00:25:45] Ben: Yeah, I think we're going on some non endemic surf brand for that really push the boat out.

[00:25:50] Tyler: Or maybe I don't know. I think Rip Curl could do if you put in the Mason Ho name and you could be like the Mason Ho surf challenge and it's like American Ninja [00:26:00] Warrior style.

[00:26:01] Ben: Well, I actually, you mentioned my surf bugle, which I appreciate, which is my own sort of writing. And, um, I did a piece on the halftime entertainment, like. Uh, just last Friday where, like, you know, at the Snapper Rocks event at Challenger Series, they had the, they had the, um, you know, Legends or the world title surf and the crowd was going, you know, absolutely crazy.

[00:26:22] And then they had fishes. Sort of Fisher and Friends, which is the same stuff, but just with a dildo shaped surfboard, but you know, but whatever it was like, you know, that surfing needs more of that, the crowd lap it up and I'm

[00:26:33] Tyler: it, it doesn't not work as my

[00:26:35] shirt

[00:26:35] says.

[00:26:36] Ben: spot on. So I was like, you know, maybe this surfing needs just, yeah, it's fun, but, and a bit of danger, bit of a danger element to bring it up, halftime entertainment.

[00:26:46] So yeah, maybe that's the future, mate.

[00:26:49] Tyler: I, I think I personally think there are more than More ways we can have like more competitive fun with surfing than, you know, the WSL is fine and what they do is, [00:27:00] is, is really good. I mean, the product is actually pretty amazing when you consider what we grew up with, and I think everyone seems to forget that a lot of the time, but it's, it's really impressive. Actually, but I think there's room for more entertainment for sure. And I'm kind of surprised they haven't caught more onto that. I mean, they've tested it with like the fishes at Jay Bay and, you know, the Tom Curren Aki matches. I would love to see more of those, like the Masters kind of rematches

[00:27:30] would be

[00:27:30] kind of fun, eh?

[00:27:32] Ben: yeah, that's just, yeah, you're right. I agree. I mean, it's, it's, yeah, and you're right about the, what they, the shows they put on and, you know, I've worked behind the scenes, I worked on those events and commentators, you just know how much manpower and time and effort and just goes into those things to provide absolutely free for everyone.

[00:27:50] Um, it is, and to do it under the

[00:27:53] Tyler: ocean, man. [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Ben: It's just, it's a silly sport. It's just, it's just like I commentate, I'm like, it was 30 minutes and it's three minutes of

[00:28:08] Tyler: Surfing.

[00:28:09] Ben: surfing and like a tenth of that's any good.

[00:28:12] So I was like, what are we doing here guys?

[00:28:15] Tyler: As a commentator, do you, I feel like you guys should actually get paid more than the surfers because

[00:28:22] you're doing

[00:28:23] more of the work actually.

[00:28:25] Ben: The judges get paid more than us, mate. get paid more.

[00:28:30] Tyler: How did you fall into that, the commentating actually?

[00:28:35] Like, how did that come about? Okay.

[00:28:44] Ben: who was the editor of Trax at the time, who was actually a, an old mate of mine, we went to university together. But, um, when I arrived there, it was part of the deal that the surf journalism, Trax would say, sponsor the Bells event or sponsor the Newcastle event.

[00:28:58] And then the, [00:29:00] We'd go up and do the commentary, which was just over the beach commentary at that stage. There was no webcasts, a lot of those. So, so it's just sort of, sort of baked into the job somehow. And then we always got a bit of extra money for it. So it was worked out for the event. They gave it a coverage and we got, and you know, a lot of those, well, I think they're quite, a lot of the search journals are quite good at it.

[00:29:20] You know, they know the sport inside out. A lot of them were quite, um, You know, fairly extroverted for some reason that was part of the deal. So it's sort of lent it to it. And then the webcam webcam started up and we just sort of. Sort of just knew how to do it. So we all kind of got, got jobs in there, but yeah, so it was just a bit of a fluke and part of the, yeah, part of the job really, but I loved it.

[00:29:43] Tyler: what was it like when the transition happened from the ASP to the WSL and that webcasting then? Because you, you do webcasting for the WSL and how, how much more constrained, uh, are you with under the WSL than before, would you say?[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Ben: Yeah. There's a lot more. Well, it's just because it's a

[00:30:02] Tyler: And not to say constraint, uh, parameters. You've been given parameters to work within.

[00:30:06] I don't, I don't mean to say constraint in a negative sense of the word.

[00:30:10] Ben: I, I think it was just more centralized because before it used to be the individual companies. We put on the events and they would be responsible for it. So you might go to a rip curl event where, I don't know, they didn't give a fuck about any of that. There was no parameters, you know, they were just like, yeah, have a good time guys, let's do this.

[00:30:28] And then like give you beers at nine in the morning, which is fine. Then you might go to another event and it was so. That was, they were all good, great shows, but there was no continuity. But obviously when WSL came in and we're going to cut, we're going to make it all standardized. And to make it standardized, you've got to have rules across it.

[00:30:46] So yeah, it's definitely, um, a lot more like that. It's a lot more professional. That just means it's way more professional. So the, the guys that are running the production and the directors have done, you know, all major sports. And, [00:31:00] but yeah, it's a little bit corporate, I would say a little bit, but I think that Getting the better mix now, somewhat.

[00:31:07] I think it's a bit more kind of fun, you know.

[00:31:09] Tyler: They're getting, they're getting, uh, it feels like some of, they're allowing some of the hosts, you know, the people announcing to be a little bit looser and to, to be a little bit freer with some of their commentary, I guess. Did you have to go through training when you, when you started doing the WSL?

[00:31:28] Because I know like the initial group did, but I didn't know if they were

[00:31:32] still like doing that.

[00:31:34] Nah, nah, mate.

[00:31:36] Ben: I don't know about that.

[00:31:37] Tyler: I don't need no fucking

[00:31:38] training.

[00:31:38] Ben: There's, there's something about old dogs and new tricks. Uh, no, I've never had any, I mean, we're on the job training. Um, but now I, yeah, I, you know what? I had a bit of a break sort of around that time when it switched switched over my ASP WSL, well, when I say a break and enforced kind of ban of some

[00:31:57] Tyler: Was this the, uh, the [00:32:00] incident with Chaz Smith and, uh, Were you involved with that

[00:32:03] one? no, I'm sorry. I mixed that up

[00:32:06] Ben: nah, not that one.

[00:32:07] Tyler: when he got hammered and started ripping into all the surfers while announcing

[00:32:12] in

[00:32:12] Ben: yeah, that was one of the swatchments. I was there, but I wasn't on the commentary. Actually, I was doing the, um, like I was doing the comms, like the

[00:32:18] Tyler: Oh,

[00:32:19] Ben: Now I had a bit of a,

[00:32:20] Tyler: in trouble there.

[00:32:22] Ben: now I had a bit of a, uh, on air thing with Jeremy Flores. I don't know if you ever saw that. It was just, um, cause I was writing all the, um, Surfline power ratings.

[00:32:31] I took over. At Poison Chalice from, um, from like, yeah, I had

[00:32:36] Tyler: From Louis and

[00:32:37] Ben: we had Lewis who was absolutely a master was brewing at it. And then you had Nick Carroll, who was like just a legend and OG and legitimate. And then you had me just popping off from the side, trying to make it fun. But anyway, but, but I, I mean, I spent a lot of time on it and I watched it all.

[00:32:53] And I, you know, I've. Got a bit of a clue about surfing. So anyway, I was obviously, um, you've got to be pretty [00:33:00] brutal sometimes. Anyway, I was, did that. And then midair, we were having, I was having a post interview with Jeremy Flores. I think it was in Portugal one time and I asked him why, why did he do that?

[00:33:11] And he was like, well, you tell me, you know, all about it. You're the man that tells me how to surf. And I was like, I had a bit of a, uh, my voice goes off about four octaves. And then I got like, I've got like the production guy in the air going, keep it going. I was like, keep it, you want this to keep going?

[00:33:30] I'm getting absolutely eviscerated by, um, anyway, after that, there was a bit of a, bit of a break. Um, bye. Yeah, but I would say, um, no, I missed the training. That's when the training must have happened. I missed it. And now, um, now, uh, yeah, I'm back on

[00:33:45] Tyler: what, what level of redness did your face get during that interview?

[00:33:50] Ben: pretty well. I mean, I'm, I'm a pretty white kind of a guy. Yeah, definitely. I would say more puce. Yeah, I've kind of recovered. All right. After my, [00:34:00] I think it was the voice that went up was the dead

[00:34:02] Tyler: What do you mean?

[00:34:03] What do you mean Jeremy Flores? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make fun of you. I was just, it's my job.

[00:34:10] Ben: go and get the manager. Yeah, now, um, he, he dealt with me, but, um,

[00:34:15] Tyler: Did you, are you guys cool now? Are you cool

[00:34:17] with, is Jeremy?

[00:34:19] Ben: yeah, it was in the book, actually, Jeremy's in the book, which is,

[00:34:21] Tyler: yeah,

[00:34:22] I know. I know, which is funny.

[00:34:23] That must have been fun having to go to him and be like, I need to interview you

[00:34:28] now.

[00:34:29] Ben: went up, yeah, well, I went up the next, um, morning at breakfast actually after the incident and I was like, oh, mate, if you got me there, um, you know, like, he stitched me up and he's like, yeah, yeah, good. I was like, we're cool, he goes, yeah, yeah, I just wanted to pull you up and I was like, yeah, you, we did that and we've always been pretty good, but, um, yeah, so we're all, we're all cool.

[00:34:49] And it was, it was, he's moved to Tahiti now and I was just chatting about his life as well. Gave me more jealousy, but he's all good

[00:34:56] Tyler: It seems like yes, he's one of the the the [00:35:00] subjects in the book and yeah, it's really interesting I'm always like curious then see how is he still is he still like getting paid by Quicksilver? I guess and he's able to make a living I would be If I were a pro server, I'd be so nervous all the time. And if I were in a place like Tahiti, I'd be like, what am I going to do for a job?

[00:35:20] I don't even know, like, what are the opportunities and that lifestyle. And I'm always like curious about that sort of stuff.

[00:35:27] Ben: Yeah, I mean Oh, I wouldn't lie at bed worrying about jeremy flores and his financial planning mate tyler I if of all the things to worry about

[00:35:37] Tyler: I stay up late at night worrying about

[00:35:39] Jeremy all the time. you don't understand, like, it's a constant concern. It's

[00:35:43] like he's my kid or something.

[00:35:45] Ben: Yeah, you can scratch that off your list of what of concerns but but that but the post career thing is obviously It's a big thing because they go from Their whole life just so structured and, and that's what they do.

[00:35:58] And they do it to the nth degree. And [00:36:00] then suddenly, yeah, the cutoff is like all pro athletes. It's, it's pretty quick. And especially, yeah. And for Germany and Tahiti, it's a pretty, I mean, it's incredible waves, isn't there? But, and it's a beautiful place. he's married the former Miss Tahiti. So his life is okay,

[00:36:17] Tyler: it's, okay.

[00:36:18] Ben: it's quiet, it's quiet.

[00:36:20] And it's a whole, it's a whole, I think anytime your life changes dramatically, that's when, you know, that's when your dramas and stuff can happen. But yeah, he's still sponsored by Quiksilver. He's still involved with Brightling. He's got loads of projects. He's really good with, um, mentoring the young kids.

[00:36:35] He's really, he's all over the juniors as well. So he's pretty, um, and he's still charging. You know, so he's, he's pretty busy.

[00:36:42] Tyler: I imagine it must be really odd or difficult being maybe not so much for Jeremy, but, uh, you know, many others who, you know, maybe were, were bright stars growing up and then had a bit of a career, but maybe didn't reach the pinnacle or the [00:37:00] peak, or even if they did get the seat to the CT, like, you know, That afterlife must be quite a shocker. And I imagine you've had conversations with many pros after that and how they make that transition.

[00:37:14] Ben: Yeah, it's a definite, it's a difficult one. You have had a pretty exalted life. I've had traveled the world, the pretty good money, the top guys. And then, um, yeah, like suddenly it all just, the rug gets pulled. If, if I haven't had a plan and a lot of them haven't, you know, a lot of them think it's going to go longer than they think or for whatever reasons.

[00:37:37] Um, you know, so yeah, I've, and I've seen some, Guys go through all sorts of real, you know, trauma with it. Um, and you know, we've, well, we've lost plenty, haven't we? Like over the years through, through, you know, various drug and alcohol or, or mental, exactly. Um, you know, even so, yeah, so it's a real thing where, and they're [00:38:00] not equipped, when they're flying high, everyone looks after them, but.

[00:38:03] You'll soon find out pretty quick that a lot of that is, um, you know, when it, when that, when the fame goes and the money goes, they're not, a lot of those so called mates aren't there anymore. And it's really, um, you gotta be strong and you gotta have a plan, you gotta have good friends around you, I think, to navigate through that, that, that time.

[00:38:22] Tyler: I, I, I feel like there should be a book or a documentary about that. I feel like that's like something worth covering because it's, there's such a, there are so many that, you know, like it's not all bad either, you know, it's not

[00:38:37] like some of them transition very well and some of them, uh, go through a struggle, but then, you know, find their footing and find their place after, you know, and there

[00:38:45] are some like, you know, Great stories, you know, of redemption, even, um, you know, so just, just giving you an idea, Ben, here for your next

[00:38:56] project, just

[00:38:56] Ben: No, I like it

[00:38:57] Tyler: you. [00:39:00] Yes.

[00:39:02] Ben: what I, what I can see together. Which, I mean,

[00:39:07] Tyler: close.

[00:39:13] Ben: Um, yeah. Well, the problem is, Tyler, is that, well, not only did we, we didn't cover that stuff after the careers, the surf media didn't really cover it.

[00:39:22] During their careers. Cause there's gatekeepers again. We're like, we couldn't give too much away because we wanted to be mates with them. So, you know, problem with that was that a lot of those stories weren't told and wouldn't even, it was all glossed over, including me for sure.

[00:39:37] Tyler: Well, there's one big, big name in your book that you kind of touch on this topic, actually. And his name is, uh, it rhymes with Smelly Skater. And there's this great quote here I pulled from the book where he says, like, I have no qualms about it, that candle is burning out, he said simply. One of the reasons I did so [00:40:00] well was because I didn't, Go out and start a traditional family, get married, have kids, and live in one location. They aren't negative, but can provide distractions. That was by design. I had a lot of ambition to try to be the greatest competitor I could be. Now I have different priorities, and it's time to expand my world. And that includes my family, my surfing, and my businesses. So, do you think, first, do you think Slater's actually going to retire? To how do you think he's going to handle that transition from not only stopping the tour and traveling, but having a baby

[00:40:41] too.

[00:40:42] Ben: We said, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be tough. I'm like, well, we're doing it for so long. It's so ingrained, you know, you're right. I mean, he will retire. I think, yeah. I mean, after these, It's, I mean, you never say never with Kelly, but yeah, he's, he's definitely gonna, gonna go and, [00:41:00] um, but it was interesting cause I interviewed him.

[00:41:02] It was last year in Portugal. So it was, you know, a good six months before we made the announcements and stuff. But then we did see him out and I'm sort of, you know, we're not, not friends, but. We always say

[00:41:12] Tyler: Acquaintances, you know each other. you're acquaintances,

[00:41:15] Ben: at one of the local restaurants in Peniche, which Peniche is a little small fishing town.

[00:41:20] Like apart from it's pretty, and it was in, it's in March. So it's out of season. It's like a pretty weird little fishing town. It just happens to have these incredible waves. And he was just in the, one of the seafood restaurants with his. And I was like, how, see how long you've been doing this for mate?

[00:41:36] Like, can you, can you keep doing this? Like, you know, just sitting in a little weird restaurant. Like, yeah, so you could be Monte Carlo. You could be,

[00:41:43] Tyler: yeah, [00:42:00] Yeah,

[00:42:09] Ben: kids and, you know, even just a full time partner and kids is a.

[00:42:12] You know, it's a massive responsibility that takes time and effort and, and bandwidth, and to not have that was, you know, a significant advantage. But classic Kelly, as soon as that stops, bang, he's on to the next thing, isn't he? So he's already got the plan and

[00:42:27] Tyler: Oh, he's, he's,

[00:42:28] Ben: you, know, it'd be

[00:42:29] Tyler: he's like ready to go. He's

[00:42:31] got like, he's just consolidated all his brands under one banner and, uh, or one holding group now. And he's, uh, you know, got the kid. Like, it seems like he's. he's. teed it off rather nicely into that next thing.

[00:42:46] Ben: Yeah. Again, mate, if he's one of, if he's on that list of yours, he worrying about late at night, I think, I think he'll be, I think he'll be all right. But, but I, you know, I I'm looking forward to seeing him just surf, you know, like we were in Portugal this year, we're [00:43:00] working event when the footage comes through of Kira, you know, and.

[00:43:03] When he was free surfing and we were, that was a terrible surf this year. And Portugal had this massive storm and it was howling wind and gray and wind. And when, and then we'd say that, like, Oh, I was in the competitors area when the new footage comes through, like Kelly getting like 10 second bail at Kira, but, but just seeing him free surfing and doing that stuff, like if hopefully we get more of that, cause I think that's.

[00:43:28] We miss that, the surf fans, like, we only get to see him in the events, which is not really, you know, it's not when you see his best these days, and to see him hopefully just free surfing, just because he's a, just a very, very good surfer, isn't he? So it'd be great to see that.

[00:43:44] Tyler: Oh, I would love to see him like, Get on some, some different equipment too, like, and like his boards are, you know, they're, they're very unique designs and they're very performance driven, but I would like [00:44:00] to see him surf boards that are more field driven as opposed to performance.

[00:44:05] Ben: Well,

[00:44:05] Tyler: that would be fascinating.

[00:44:07] Ben: yeah, well, and I think we will, because that's the one thing that all those guys do. It's the first thing they do, like, post career,

[00:44:14] Tyler: Get on an

[00:44:14] album.

[00:44:15] Ben: they just get on an album. just, just get on an album and just, um, yeah, just do that. But they, you know, cause they're so regimented that equipment side of it, like everything in their life is pretty regimented on tour really.

[00:44:27] And as soon as you get that ability, just to like, not worry about, you know, yeah, let yourself go and quitting your boards. Yeah. I think we could see some freaky stuff coming, coming from Kelly on all sorts of. You know, cause he was pretty crazy for a pro surfer in terms of his equipment. Like, I mean, it wasn't exactly, he was probably pushed it more than most.

[00:44:47] So where he goes with it out of competition could be really, yeah, really interesting.

[00:44:52] Tyler: Well, it's like everything has been so driven by performance, right? Like it's all about being able to go where his mind [00:45:00] wanted to go and now He can, instead of that, like, maybe go where the feeling is instead, where I feel like there are these, look, like, there, there's, like, I think a shift in surfboards in general, you know, where it's, it's not so much about where you want to go, but it's about how you want to feel on a board, too, and I think that's definitely changing, although Slater on the mid length just Did not look good to me,

[00:45:25] nor Shane Dorian.

[00:45:26] I

[00:45:31] Ben: yeah, we've got to, we've got to get our heads around that. But, um,

[00:45:35] Tyler: was like, I don't know. You're not really selling it, Shane.

[00:45:39] Ben: yeah, yeah, exactly. But, I mean, I mean that equipment, it's so, you know, like that's another part of inclusivity where I think that the equipment's got so much easier and better and more fun. It's allowed more people to do surfing their own way. Whereas like, you know, that whole, I mean that fish, have you ever seen the fish documentary [00:46:00]

[00:46:00] Tyler: Yeah, it's wonderful. I love it.

[00:46:02] Ben: that is one, yeah, I think that's a brilliant documentary. I think one of the quotes from, I think it's from Rob Machado says, yeah, like during the nineties, 98 percent of people were on the wrong surfboards, you know, and I think we've had

[00:46:13] Tyler: were.

[00:46:14] Ben: we were, and you know, and, um, that's changed in the last, what, 15 years and that's just opened up a whole new realm for so many different people, which has made it way more accessible and easier and funner.

[00:46:27] So that's got to reflect on the culture, hopefully.

[00:46:30] Tyler: Although I am starting to see some of those potato chip boards, the longer, narrower potato chip boards make a comeback a little bit though, with Creed and a few, you know, a few of the boys like, but they were riding it in good waves, so it makes sense. Like they're not riding it in knee high slop, which made no sense.

[00:46:48] Ben: no, exactly. When you get one of those boards, like I would want to do lose a couple of years ago, like a, it was like a seven, two was what I would have taken to win. I went to Indonesia when I was 18 with like a six, [00:47:00] eight, a seven, two and a seven, four, that was my quiver. But you know, it's like so narrow glass and fans.

[00:47:06] I took it out in good ways. Like, Oh, you do remember how fast and responsive and beautiful they are, but yeah, in very small amount of conditions.

[00:47:15] Tyler: Do you, let me ask this real quick, back to the book in Breitling. I don't think I've seen Slater wear a Breitling watch in a heat, though. Is that because he asked to wear the Apple watch, or

[00:47:29] Hahahaha! Sorry Breitling, gotta call you out on it.

[00:47:33] Ben: yeah, I know they can't wear any other watch in the heat.

[00:47:37] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:47:38] Ben: has that. That's a contractual thing that they had to do. So. That answers that over the last two, that was only the last two years, but I'm not sure how long Kelly's been with them or probably longer. But,

[00:47:48] Tyler: But I thought Breitling was also a sponsor of the WSL2, or was connected in some ways, so I always thought like There would have been an allowance for it.

[00:47:59] Ben: yeah, [00:48:00] I, I don't want to get into the deep weeds of the contractual obligations of WSL and the

[00:48:04] Tyler: What, you don't want to talk about contracts?

[00:48:06] Ben: um, but.

[00:48:08] Tyler: a Breitling watch? That's my hard

[00:48:10] hitting

[00:48:10] Ben: know what, that's, you know

[00:48:11] Tyler: you have a Breitling watch?

[00:48:13] Ben: do not, Tyler.

[00:48:14] Tyler: Aww, how is that?

[00:48:17] Ben: It's called integrity, mate. I won't be sold for a bit of brass tucker. Now, it's the first people I'm going to ask for your knife, so, uh, But, uh, I am, I am going to the launch in Biritz.

[00:48:30] Next month, uh, and so, and it's also I'm moderating the event with, uh, Steph Gilmore and, um, and it's the launch of the new sort of super ocean watches. So if it was ever a time, um, that, that, that, that could be it, but, uh,

[00:48:46] Tyler: Oh, you're going to have to drop a few subtle hints during your live Q& A. Oh, that's A.

[00:48:51] really nice watch, Steph. Really nice. Can I try that on for a

[00:48:55] Ben: what I'm going to have to do. Tyler's not drink too much beer. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's the [00:49:00] first. That's the first hurdle and then I'm going to have to, uh, yeah, talk to the people that matter. But, um, yeah, so maybe, yeah, if you see me with a, uh, a flashy piece, I'll let you know. And next time I'll, I'll see Kelly, I'll ask him about the contractual deal and see what he

[00:49:16] Tyler: What's the deal with you and Breitling?

[00:49:18] What is that? Do you actually wear that?

[00:49:21] Ben: Yeah.

[00:49:24] Tyler: when, like, so this book, like, it's, it's incredible, like, the photography is wonderful.

[00:49:32] And I was curious, like, how involved did you get on that side as well? Were you privy to that? Did you work with them on, on sourcing the material?

[00:49:41] No.

[00:49:41] Ben: Not a whole lot. I mean, which is another part of it as well. It's just a dream job. It's just sort of the, basically the words, which is on, um,

[00:49:48] Tyler: you didn't have to herd cats.

[00:49:49] Ben: no, like, I mean, and they helped with the interview process as well as getting organized interviews, which is, as you well know, probably one of the toughest parts of [00:50:00] the job, but, um, the imagery I sort of, for each surfer, I'd, you know, I put forward the photographers who I thought would be best.

[00:50:07] Um, you know, suited to get the shots, but I didn't have much more than that. So yeah, I was really nervous about that. I mean, they gave me, you know, I saw a few of the mock ups and things, but I was so stoked when I, you know, saw the end product and, you know, just the imagery. Yeah. It's, it's brilliant. And it's just a lot of photos I hadn't seen.

[00:50:25] It's rare these days that you sort of see a lot of images, you know, they get, they get videoed or they get. You know, Instagram to blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that, yeah, I was really pleased with either the quality of the imagery in the way they sort of the art direction of it, which I had nothing to do with.

[00:50:40] Um, but yeah, it's, there is some incredible, incredible shots in there.

[00:50:45] Tyler: It's, it's really nice, like listeners, the book is stunning and the photos are really good and I think it's going to be a really nice coffee table book, uh, for sure, like, and Rizzoli does such a nice job. How was it working [00:51:00] with them as well? Like, it seems like everyone I've talked to is just, it's been great.

[00:51:05] Ben: Yeah, just, um, you know, that would just, it just, So switched on aren't they and professional and the editing process, you know, we don't like to get edited any journalists any writers It's you know, it's always an issue But that would you know, you always know that when they're doing it, it's going to improve the book and improve your writing as well So across the board.

[00:51:27] Yeah, it was a really Relatively stress free kind of project, which is kind of rare considering all the different parts of it and what, you know, um, yeah, so there, you know, and you'd see by there what they do and how they do it, all their books that you've got a certain,

[00:51:43] Tyler: know

[00:51:48] Ben: um, yeah, I was just, Stoked that, yeah, they let me in the door mate, to be honest.

[00:51:54] Tyler: Um, I want to, like, jump back now into your life a little bit more, [00:52:00] um, and I'm curious, like, you know, I was reading about, like, how you kind of got started, but I'm curious, like, your story of going from Finance Bro to working at Trax. And, and I think the story involves, like, Morocco, opium, and a stiffy, but I was hoping you could kind of expand upon

[00:52:23] Ben: You want me to expand upon a stiffy? Um,

[00:52:26] Tyler: you know, uh, Viagra style, maybe.

[00:52:28] Ben: I, um, yeah, well, it's true. I, yeah, I did an economics degree and then, Uh, and then because, so that took a few years at university and then obviously you want to need to get work in your degree, you

[00:52:41] Tyler: Were you, were you passionate about finance? Like, what, what

[00:52:45] drove you for that degree? Yeah,

[00:52:51] Ben: you don't know, you think you know everything, you don't know anything. I always

[00:52:54] Tyler: I wanted to be a creative, uh, I wanted to be a

[00:52:56] surf journalist, so.

[00:52:58] Ben: Well, there you go. [00:53:00] Well, the economic, I mean, I enjoyed economics, but it was just a way of going to university and then I got a job out of it and then I kept quitting these jobs.

[00:53:07] To go, you know, I get a good job and I'd be working stockbroking, you know, finance, and then I'd just quit for a year and go surfing basically, which I quickly worked out was a bit of a handbrake on the old promotion sort of ladder and, um, the last time I, you know, I left to go away, um, Uh, so it's gone away for 18 months kind of thing.

[00:53:30] You know, I was off and mom, my mom was like, you won't have it. You can't keep doing this. But you know, when I was away, I was making a few journals, uh, just to myself and I sent them back to my mates, a couple of mates, a good writer. Kirk Owens is one of my good friends. We got together and he was a brilliant writer.

[00:53:44] So we wrote together. So we always, that was our creative sort of element, but my mom got, they're all handwritten just being the nineties, uh, for you, all your kids out there. And, um, my mom got a hold of them. She typed them up. She just thought she better keep these. And so she [00:54:00] taught me. Yeah. And one of those initial stories was about meeting a lovely young Moroccan lady who gave me some opium tea as is the local custom.

[00:54:08] Tyler: I've had a few of those, they're

[00:54:09] Ben: yeah. And,

[00:54:11] Tyler: kind of do weird shit to your stomach though.

[00:54:13] Ben: yeah, they do. It does weird stuff to lots of different things. Um, and, uh, anyway, and mom sort of handed those out to a few of my mates and they started reading them like this little book of books. Written sort of work. And then that got handed around. And mom was like, I was why I didn't know anything about this.

[00:54:32] Mom's like, yeah, we've been enjoying it. And I was like, so anyway, fast forward, I got back after got another job back in finance, but I wasn't happy. I wanted to write like you, I hadn't really had any formal training, but I was always thought I had a bit of a skill for it. And I did a few creative writing, like freelance courses, but I bumped into my mate, Sean on the train, who was then about to become the editor of tracks.

[00:54:52] And I gave him, um, He said, Oh, I'm looking for stories. I said, I've just been away and I've got these journals that have, you know, so they're already typed [00:55:00] up. And so I've got a few published just as a freelance, cause it wasn't that hard. And he was a mate and they were all right. And then I went away again and I was actually up in the desert, up in Nalu and I was camping up there for three months.

[00:55:11] And, um, I checked it with mom's old, it was an old phone box kind of deal. And I checked it with mom. She goes, Oh, Sean Doherty's called you. I was like, Oh, that's weird. So he wants you to call him. So I called from this. Payphone up in Nalu. We've had this

[00:55:26] Tyler: Which is like, in the middle of fuckin nowhere.

[00:55:29] Ben: literally literally it was two hours to the nearest town To get you no running.

[00:55:33] No water. No electricity. No phones. And um, yeah, they said that the job's going and I said Oh, we're gonna have to do the interview In the, uh, Nalu phone box, which is probably the only reason I got the job. It's a bit of

[00:55:46] Tyler: That's full street cred right

[00:55:48] Ben: So, and then suddenly I got transformed from not quite sure what I want to do, you know, with my life and I was going to be all right, but you know, I wasn't happy with my work to being at Trax, which is like you, I was [00:56:00] just a surf fan, surf magazine geek.

[00:56:03] I loved it. I read it. I thrived on it. And then I was sort of working in it and that sort of transformed That's just like a I didn't have to work for it even better mate I just got sort of parachuted in by a bit of luck and a bit of a bit of you know Yeah, right time right place. So and uh, yeah, I got the job and That was that.

[00:56:21] And it was the best, incredible five years of, yeah, five years of my life. And we had a great bunch of blokes. It was incredible.

[00:56:29] Tyler: was the office like?

[00:56:31] I've heard stories.

[00:56:32] Ben: madhouse. It was, it was like, it was insane. We had like Ronnie Blakey is a commentator on the double cell. He was the digital guy. We actually had one of the first websites and surfing till they shut it down.

[00:56:45] Cause I didn't think the internet was going to take off the, um, the powers that You know and Sean was there. He was he's a you know He's a brilliant guy and Matt Gregg's and we just and it was it was Neil Ridgway was out It was a he was [00:57:00] our boss who was our publisher and he's a incredible.

[00:57:03] Tyler: a legend. I mean, that

[00:57:04] guy, like, Rip Curl, like, Hay Day Rip Curl.

[00:57:08] Like super smart. Yep.

[00:57:34] Ben: a promotion of stubby, what they call stubby holders, you know, the, the coolest for your

[00:57:38] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. The koozies. We call them koozies

[00:57:41] Ben: koozies, right? Yeah. Well, we had like about 50, 000 of those left over some promo. And that was like, Sean made that into a bed and that was his mattress. Well, just, I mean, we were going to Hawaii and going on free boat trips and we're hanging out with, you know, You know, that's how I got to know all these surfers through those boat trips.

[00:57:58] And, you know, I was getting paid to do it. [00:58:00] So it was, you know, we could have been a bit more professional. We could have been, but we got the job done and the magazine went really well. It was, it was, you know, gaining readers and it was gaining advertising. So we're doing the right things by the bosses. And we

[00:58:13] Tyler: It was peak. It was peak surf industry. You know,

[00:58:16] there was so much money, uh, at that time and God, like you had no shortage of pro surfers as well. Like there was just so many It was like a C, a D team, C team, B team, A team. So you, you could like Just do whatever like it

[00:58:34] god like it's just kind of crazy to think about now

[00:58:37] I have when we look at our landscape now and where it was and what just total like Feels like 1920s before the crash almost, you

[00:58:46] know, like

[00:58:48] Ben: yeah, exactly. Just like didn't know, didn't see any of it coming and you're right. And we'd go away on these trips and you couldn't file, you couldn't do anything till you got back. So you just [00:59:00] literally had to like these 10 days on a boat and then you'd write about it when you came back and

[00:59:05] Tyler: But how difficult was it to write about a boat trip and make it feel different than the other boat trip that you did last month or whatever?

[00:59:12] Like, that must have been, as a writer and a creative person, rather challenging to try to keep thinking of a new spin on the same old formatted trip almost,

[00:59:23] especially when they gave you a bunch of randos too,

[00:59:25] like it wasn't like a team trip.

[00:59:27] Ben: exactly. Yeah, it was. I mean, you're trying to make it interesting and you know, the imagery is so important. I mean, I did, I suppose I, I ran out of steam. I think one of the last ones that I did, I did like a eight page poem. You know, that's when you know that, that's when you know, you really start, uh, you know, this, we, you wonder why the whole thing folded, don't you?

[00:59:49] And with a lot, the largest of that, that, um, yeah, it was difficult unless you had the really good guys, but even then like that ain't. You know, it's hard to open up and that's, you keep coming up with these, [01:00:00] trying to come up with concepts where there was, uh, you know, we'd board, you know, such shapers and surface.

[01:00:05] So that was, that was always key trying to come up with new ways to spin it. But I mean, yeah, you're right. How many, how many mentality boat trips can you write about? it's

[01:00:14] Tyler: Were you, like, on those trips, as an inquiring surf nerd mind I have, like then, those trips and you would be with the pro surfers, and I imagine it's like, on one hand you're there to cover them. But I'm sure there's a part that you want to be with them and hanging out with them and be their friends and I'm curious like Would they tell you like don't write this don't write that were there conditions on that and and and Would you have like heart to hearts with with surfers?

[01:00:50] Would you get through the exterior and get kind of below the surface with them and and get them to open up? And would you feel like you were betraying them if you were to write [01:01:00]about that? Silence. Silence.

[01:01:19] Ben: trust and there was a tacit agreement that you couldn't, yeah, yeah.

[01:01:24] Often they would say like, yeah, Monday, don't, this is not for the record or this, you know, it's don't put that in, but we more just did it as a way of. It's just that almost an understanding that there was a stuff you could write about stuff That wasn't and if they trusted you that I would you know I mean if yeah, if I could yeah, if I was to write the true stories, obviously, that'd be far more interesting.

[01:01:46] But even um Even now a lot of that was hidden. Um, but you know what? Those boat trips are good for that because I don't know if you've ever been on some of those boat trips with anyone But you get to know someone pretty well and you can't [01:02:00] hide and you've got to find ways to get along And You know, I'm, I like to think I'm pretty good at that and we just had a lot, you know, you're surfing, you're having fun as long as the waves are good, usually.

[01:02:11] But, um, sometimes we get difficult, you know, you get pros that were difficult and then when the waves aren't there and you're trying to, you know, that you've got to make them do things, whether it's a shoot or, you know, interviews and, you know, so you've sort of mixing that, that world of, you know, work and mates, but.

[01:02:28] Tyler: How, how did, did your surfing improve on those trips and, and would they give you pointers?

[01:02:33] Ben: it was the

[01:02:35] Tyler: That's what I'd be like, all right, Kelly, what can I do with my turns? Can I, what can I, how can I fix this?

[01:02:46] Ben: no it didn't improve and no they didn't give me any tips, but I look back on some of those trips and like the surfing I saw like live, um, we did, I did a lot of trips with Mick and Joel and Dingo and Margo. and Rasta. [01:03:00] I did, those five guys I probably spent weeks and weeks and weeks at sea with in Bauer and Indonesia.

[01:03:04] And so you're watching it and it's just at a level that, yeah, you just can't compute it. Um, it, you know, and it's still seeded into my brain. So that, that never goes away. But, um, I do remember on one of the first trips, I was pretty young. I, I, I didn't know them that well, but we went up to Asu, which is that left hander that got destroyed by the earthquake.

[01:03:24] Unfortunately, but it was an incredible wave. And anyway, I got a good wave, like it was eight foot. It was really, it was, it was solid. And then when I was fit and firing, and um, I got one of the best barrels of my life, like I remember it. And I was like, oh, you know, we were back on the boat watching it. And like, Everyone watches the footage of the day and then like, I just come down, I saw me, I was like, here we go, boys, here we go.

[01:03:44] And then it just goes, just like, stop these, because the film was not going to, he's like, cause not going to

[01:03:51] Tyler: Can't waste it on you.

[01:03:52] Ben: I was like, you, are you kidding? That was literally the, so yeah, you, you, you learn to be humble because, you know, I was an all right surfer and I was always, [01:04:00] you know, I could hold my own, but when you went on that boat, you're just the kook, you're the absolute kook of the trip, you know, like you just, so.

[01:04:06] Yeah. It was a bit of a, it was a nice, humbling experience as well. But yeah,

[01:04:11] Tyler: Fantasy boat trip would or film or project would be to take a group of surfers on a boat trip with a psychotherapist and have an, you know, sessions with the therapist to help unlock their performance in the water and see if they can break through their inner child and then see if their performance lifts because they've had an emotional breakthrough.

[01:04:33] Ben: that's pretty much Griffin Con Pinto's last boat trip, wasn't

[01:04:36] Tyler: Yeah, right?

[01:04:37] Ben: just just described it. They've already done it.

[01:04:41] They've already, he's already broken through the fourth wall.

[01:04:44] Tyler: He's got his third eye going.

[01:04:46] Ben: Just like levitating on top of the top deck? Yeah. Our boat trips were a bit d.

[01:04:54] Tyler: What, what is the current landscape like for a surf journalist at the [01:05:00]moment? Like, how, how difficult, uh, is it to navigate?

[01:05:06] Ben: Um, it's, there's just not many people sort of doing it. I think that's, um, there's, I mean, look at all the, I suppose with bigger platforms, I suppose there's a lot of surfers or riders out there doing their own thing, but I mean, if you want to just become a surf journalist now, it's just, I don't know where you would start.

[01:05:29] You'd have to like, you don't get paid. The money is. You know, it's, it's just pitiful really. Like I do a lot of copywriting, which pays the bills, but the actual editorial stuff is, you know, you spend a day's work and get to, they want to pay you 200 bucks or 250. And I'm like, supposedly, you know, one of the.

[01:05:48] One. So it's, it's, it's really hard. I would imagine to try and get into it, um, and get paid and have any time you there's the [01:06:00] trips out there, like you used to be able to at least, you know, you've got your trips and that was, you weren't getting paid much, but you had all this X, you know, incredible sort of stuff, but that, that, um, That's sort of gone by the wayside.

[01:06:10] So I think it's the only way to sort of probably do it now is work for a brand and that you get in that way and you tell their stories through film or writing, but even writing it's become less and less meaningful as the video, you know, everyone gets so much better at telling stories through videos and quicker span.

[01:06:25] So I would say it's, it's a difficult, difficult task. And that maybe that's like the sub stack, which is where people write their own things, get their own subscribers. Like, I think that's probably. The way of taking your own writing and trying to build your own audience. And that, that's probably the way that hopefully that some of these young talented or, you know, like the Tyler Brill, when he was 18, he got told by

[01:06:47] Tyler: I hope

[01:06:48] Ben: that he couldn't, yeah, fucking ice packers, pierced all your dreams.

[01:06:53] If you had had a, your own little platform, you would have found someone mate. You would have been fine. So maybe that's the way forward [01:07:00] I'm hoping.

[01:07:01] Tyler: What, uh, like, I want to talk about the substack, but I, I'm, I'm, I want to, I'm curious about this. Like, when did it become apparent to you that the surf media landscape is kind of fucked and that you had to evolve? Like what, when was that, when was that moment for you where you're just like, Oh fuck, I need to figure out another angle?

[01:07:25] Ben: Yeah, I think, I mean, it was, I moved, you know, I left the magazine when it was sort of doing really well, but even probably by 2006, 2007, some of those budgets were starting to get cut. And then by the time 2010 and 11. I was going to Hawaii and I was working for a few companies that were doing sort of live blogs, like the start of the live, like doing stuff every day.

[01:07:48] And that was like, Hey, this has changed. This is now, this is it's instantaneous. And I could sort of see the writing on the wall there. The magazines would sort of start to, to go out and the money they were paying for features was, [01:08:00] was disappearing. So, I mean, that's when I, you sort of start to pivot towards, you know, the branding side of things or the copywriting side of stuff.

[01:08:08] So, you know, I know that I had all these contacts and I had. Um, and these brands, you know, that was valuable if you could, you know, write whatever they need to do, but with an authentic tone of voice and stuff. Um, but that's quite, can be quite boring and quite dull. You know, it's like you're writing

[01:08:27] Tyler: Okay.

[01:08:28] Ben: sort of surf stuff for the company.

[01:08:30] So, you know, I'd say probably 10 years ago I was like, okay, well this, the model as it was, is pretty much finished. And that was, You know, that was when, you know, like, you know, the bill of bonds and Quicksilvers was starting to go bankrupt, weren't they? And that, so that, that, that facet was gone. So the, the surf media was, the print media was dying.

[01:08:51] Some of these big brands that had sort of funded it all. Um. They were, they were dying. I mean, that's, yeah, they, they're, you know, sort of [01:09:00] linked, aren't they? In, in absolutely combined symbiosis. So yeah, by then I was just like, you had to work out. I mean, I haven't worked it out by your sort of machine and I worked it out.

[01:09:09] I'm literally trying to,

[01:09:11] Tyler: Well, I mean, you know, if you've

[01:09:12] got a book with Breitling, you know, I mean,

[01:09:14] Ben: thinking out loud now trying to work out what I've, what I've worked out, but, um,

[01:09:18] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:21] Ben: 10 years ago I've had enough now so that this, as it was, was forever over and the, yeah, I was lucky enough to get the last sort of 10 years of that, of the, of the good times before it, uh, kind of went away or changed.

[01:09:35] Tyler: Now, did Matt Barr introduce you to Substack or was that something you came to yourself? I was wondering.

[01:09:43] Ben: Uh, I mean, I knew, I knew, I knew about it. Um, and I knew that it was a, a, you know, you know, the platform and my wife was actually pretty good. So, you know, you should do that kind of stuff. But then, yeah, having Matt being, he's, he's, he's a man I ran the agency [01:10:00] with, um, in ACM and actually him and my wife are mates and so in their 20s.

[01:10:05] So I know I'll go a long way back with Matt, but yeah, he, he talked me through it and gave me plenty of encouragement said, look, yeah, it's going to work for you. Uh, he was

[01:10:13] Tyler: You're prolific on it. Like there's so much on

[01:10:17] Ben: Yeah,

[01:10:17] Tyler: really incredible.

[01:10:19] Ben: It's hard. I mean, a lot of it. Yeah, it's hard to work out what I'm still working out myself, how, how much you need and

[01:10:27] Tyler: Okay.

[01:10:36] Ben: it's about being consistent. And so, you know, you stick to your output and then you kind of, but, and it's a long term thing, but it's, it's, it's, it's new for me, but I'm enjoying it.

[01:10:45] It's, it's a new way of doing things, but, and it's quite a, at this stage, it's quite early on earlier, you know, it's a pretty positive space. Like Twitter was, I think in the early days where it's inclusive. Everyone's sort of got their own backs. That'll, that'll work. Obviously change because [01:11:00] humans aren't like that But at the moment because it's new and it's it's sort of feels like it's something going in the direction So that's why i've been enjoying it.

[01:11:07] But man matt bar was pretty crucial and get me over the line.

[01:11:10] Tyler: I figured that

[01:11:11] like, cause he was encouraging me too. And I'm like, bro, I got, I got a head at the time, a full time job. I was like, there's no, I have no time for that

[01:11:20] to

[01:11:21] Ben: well, it's it's really it's time you're investing in yourself, but you're not getting paid for it And that you know, that doesn't pay the bills. So yeah, it it's it's it's hard to But, you know, he built such a great audience through his own hard work and he's a clever format and fuck if he can do it, mate, we can do it.

[01:11:37] Surely.

[01:11:38] Tyler: Well, when's the Ben Mundy podcast

[01:11:40] Ben: Well, yeah, that's yeah,

[01:11:42] Tyler: or vlog.

[01:11:43] Ben: Yeah, no, the, yes, there will be a podcast. I've had a few ideas about that. So, I mean, I used to have one with my mate Paul Evans. We did a few over the years, which were, weren't big, but always seemed to have quite a very small, but, uh, [01:12:00] sort of like audience or fans that really loved it.

[01:12:03] Um, yeah, so I've got to, um, um, yeah, that's, it's in the, it's in the pipeline, mate. I've

[01:12:08] Tyler: yeah.

[01:12:09] I, because I, I feel like there is an opening. I, I feel like there's an opening in the surf media landscape where no one is really, and you're kind of doing it with your sub stack with the surf bugle, where you do these like weekly kind of recaps of what happened in surf and. I just think there's an opening for like a surf news format video format, uh, where you could comment on all the things that are happening and just have your head floating in a little box or do the really weird tick tock video with your head floating and commenting and pointing to weird things.

[01:12:45] But. Like, I think there's a space for that. Like, I think there's an opening because no one is really doing that. Like no one is doing video form of a weekly surf news recap in a fun way that's really [01:13:00] well done. And I think that's like a, I think there are openings. I just think it, it hasn't been tapped yet.

[01:13:06] And, and I think it would be incredibly hard to,

[01:13:09] Ben: Yeah, that's, yeah, I mean, it's a good idea and you're right and it's been tried, hasn't it? Um, poorly executed.

[01:13:15] Tyler: tried it a little bit.

[01:13:17] Ben: Phew, yeah, well, I, what was, what was that one that was with those two dudes?

[01:13:23] Tyler: Oh my God,

[01:13:24] the, the, the really, the goofy two goofy

[01:13:27] guys who I didn't even know if they surfed and they just

[01:13:30] like try to do a comedy

[01:13:32] show. And I'm like, nah.

[01:13:33] Ben: That's, that's maybe when I worked out things weren't working out in the surf world. But yeah, that, that was an attempt at that, but, poor, yeah, it was just so bad. But yeah, I think you're right and having the courage. To do it, put yourself out there and be consistent and spend the time on it.

[01:13:47] Um, I'm not, yeah, but it's definitely a good idea. And it's, that's what I want. I mean, that's the thing with this, this type, that platform, it, it provides you the opportunity to do that. The tech's great. It's all there for you. It's just, you [01:14:00] know, the audio and the video is there. So it's up to you to come up with cool ideas and just put yourself out there and see if people like it.

[01:14:06] So yeah, I'm, I'm onto it. Oh yeah, it's another good idea. You, you should be writing all those down. I'll listen to it later.

[01:14:12] Tyler: I won't charge you at all, don't worry, it's all good.

[01:14:15] I mean, you

[01:14:16] Ben: burning.

[01:14:17] Tyler: yeah, I mean, it's just, I just feel like I look at it as like a blank canvas right now, I think. There's no one really dominating. Stab does a really nice job. Beach Grid is a great tabloid. You know, uh, Surfing World and Surfer's Journal occupy more of the print space. And they, they tend to be like the ones that are holding it down. Um, You know, and I know they're trying to track a little bit to do it, but it's not as consistent yet and I think there's I know I think surfing does need still like a bit of a cohesive voice or some sort of Way to speak about the culture at large [01:15:00] and and get people whether you agree with it or not Like I think there's something there that we still need and crave to a certain extent.

[01:15:07] I crave it at least um, you know, that's why I still go to beach grit sometimes because it's the one form of semblance of commentary on surf culture whether I Whether I like it or not is is almost like I

[01:15:21] don't like a lot of it, but it's fine,

[01:15:23] you know

[01:15:24] Ben: a, drug that keeps you getting your back. Isn't it? Yeah, no, no, I know what you mean. And I, and I agree. It's, um, you know, just intelligent, clever people that get the culture commenting on it is, is always going to have currency and it's going to be needed. If you can make it. Both yeah, informative and entertaining and funny.

[01:15:44] It's difficult to put all those together But yeah, I think there is and as you're right there's guys like, um, you know, like raglan Yeah, luke cederman doing his little thing on the you know, and that's he's got his niche but there's not much not yeah He's he's [01:16:00] brilliant. I think it's the best thing out there And green room times and instagram.

[01:16:03] There's little accounts that have little stabs at it do quite well, but there's no um, yeah, it's all it's pretty superficial and You So, yeah. Am I alright? I'll, I'll get on to it, mate. It's

[01:16:15] Tyler: One, the one thing I want to see happen one day is a, a clever writer, someone who is, can write comedy, do like a curb your enthusiasm for surfing. That's my, that's my dream is to see that, like, cause we have so much etiquette out there that's just so random and weird and, and foreign to people, but to us it's like, no, you, you just paddle around, you can't do that, and like, imagine a Larry David type of voice doing that would be amazing.

[01:16:44] Ben: It would be, yeah. It's surfing comedy, though. It's, it's It's a checkered, it's a

[01:16:49] Tyler: It's a checkered past.

[01:16:51] Ben: I've written it. I remember I wrote a piece on it. Who was it for? It's for tracks, like a big, long print piece. And I spoke to, um, yeah, I spoke to a lot of [01:17:00] people and then like traced it back to the, you know, the tube state, you know, with, um,

[01:17:04] Tyler: yes,

[01:17:05] Ben: way, all the way through and then tracks, Phil Jarrett in, in tracks magazine, cause their humor was their thing.

[01:17:11] Um, but then. You know, you go through some of those skits like Taylor Steele's skits and that, which were just terrible. It's so often that it misses the marks. So, um, you know, Sterling Spencer's probably probably the best, you know, recently of trying to combine it and It shows you how difficult it is. So I don't know if it's, it's us, the creatives that aren't getting it right, or it's the surf, it doesn't mix, but it's, it's proved a, um, it's proved a difficult kind of

[01:17:39] Tyler: For me.

[01:17:39] Ben: to, to merge.

[01:17:41] Tyler: For me, the peak is, uh, the Surfer Magazine comedy issues when, um, Steve Hawk was editing. And they did the mock on mock up surf ads, and like, Waves Magazine was the best. It was like, the title on it was like, Waves Magazine, the [01:18:00] magazine with heaps of poo, and The title, you know, uh, one of the titles was How to Surf with the Stiffy and, uh, you know, and

[01:18:08] they had, like, Rip Hurl and Surfer's of Fortune, Quicksilver, like, it showed, it was just really well done,

[01:18:16] actually.

[01:18:16] Ben: Really funny. Yeah. Well, I try to do, I've got like that alias called Rod Cunthorpe.

[01:18:22] Tyler: Yes.

[01:18:23] Ben: had him in tracks. It was, uh, you know, his name's kind of says it all and it was a parody. And

[01:18:28] Tyler: I love them in your, your, in your sub stack is great.

[01:18:32] Ben: yeah, and he, and he, that was a way of all that. We talked about the information that you couldn't tell, um, the pro surfers wouldn't, you know, I had the info, but I couldn't really use it because it was under embargo, like the tacit one, but with Rod Comfort, you could as, as satire and as. So clearly off tap that it wasn't true.

[01:18:52] You could put all that sort of stuff in. That's where I got a bit of release and I've brought him back. He was of his time and I've read [01:19:00] back some of the stuff from when it wasn't tracks like 15 years ago. And so it's, uh, yeah, you know, it's, it needs some reduction here and there, but, but on the whole, um, You know, anyway, and I brought him back as a, as a way of trying to do that.

[01:19:14] So I put my money where my mouth is and say that surfing comedy doesn't mix. I'm trying to do it, but we'll, I'll let other people be the judge of that. But, um, I tell you what, it's

[01:19:22] Tyler: I like it.

[01:19:23] Ben: it's one of my best hours, two hours of writing I get in a week. So, uh, my, my Rudd Cumthorpe mornings, uh, that's a real treat.

[01:19:31] Get into character.

[01:19:35] So, um, yeah, it's all there. It's all there for us, Tyler. It's, it's, there's still scope to make. Cool

[01:19:41] Tyler: There is I, um, I wanted. Like do some rapid fire or, or not rapid fire, but like discuss some topics of surfing because I have you here. And I just want to geek out with someone who knows surfing really well and writes about it. So [01:20:00] the thing I think is I want to discuss, and you kind of recently wrote about it was wave pools.

[01:20:05] Are wave pools, the Petri dish for a new, better inclusive surf culture or the death of it? And I love how you put. Baby

[01:20:15] Ben: Yeah, both. Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, we're talking about that before I was going to bring it up. Actually. We're talking about the nascent surf cultures or surf cultures around the world, which is just starting and what's going to happen and well, that's what's happening with wave pools. Like right now, we're just in a, you know, it's just started.

[01:20:30] It's the first time they're all commercially available. My, I just. Texted my, um, sister in Australia and her son and just got out to the new Sydney one to test it out. So he's a 13 year old kid. Just he's hooked on surfing the first time he's going to use it. So yeah, and the hot the lineup hierarchy has been removed.

[01:20:48] You got a guy with got a guy with a whistle. Telling you when you can ride a wave. You paid your money and it doesn't matter if you're a corporate jock with a GLA and a fat Audi and you [01:21:00] shit at surfing, you're going to get the wave next to the, you know, 18 stone rip, you know, guy that would regulate in the lineup.

[01:21:07] So it's, it's interesting. Whether it's going to be a whole little, and they will kick on and there'll be kids in South Korea that learn to surf in it and it'll be amazing. And they'll have their own little culture, really. They might not get to the ocean very much. So yeah, you know what? I just don't know.

[01:21:24] I I'm so torn because that's just another monet monetization of surfing. Do we, do we, do we want to monetize surfing? Is that, I mean, it's monetized to a degree, isn't it? But that it's cool. You can still get a board and go in the ocean. You,

[01:21:37] Tyler: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

[01:21:50] Ben: resources and they're providing resources. So

[01:21:54] Tyler: Every light casts a shadow, you know. And, you know, and so there's [01:22:00]positives and negatives, I think. But, like, I assume you've gone to the Bristol wave pool and have surfed some others as well.

[01:22:07] Ben: yeah, I've surfed a

[01:22:08] Tyler: Which pools have you had a chance to sample?

[01:22:11] Ben: Yeah. I've done Bristol. Um, and there's one up in Snowdonia, which is another one in the UK and I've been down to the Proto one down in the Basque country, but I haven't done any of the sort of the other technologies. I haven't, I've been Kelly's one. I haven't done the, you know, any of the,

[01:22:25] Tyler: How does Kelly not invite you to

[01:22:27] Abu Dhabi, dammit? Come

[01:22:29] on. By the way, what's happened with Abu Dhabi's wave pool? I have yet to see any footage from it since.

[01:22:35] Ben: Yeah. I don't know is the answer. I think, um, I don't think it was due to open. I think that was the launch. I mean, yeah. Who knows? But that's the other thing, you know? Yeah. Do we need to wait for Abu Dhabi? I don't know. Do we? Really? Is that, is that what, is that what we need? But,

[01:22:52] Tyler: I, I,

[01:22:53] I

[01:22:53] mean,

[01:22:54] I think they, uh, go on.

[01:22:57] Ben: there's other ones that are part of, you know, the gated communities, [01:23:00] aren't they?

[01:23:00] They're like, like golf courses.

[01:23:02] Tyler: Yeah, real estate.

[01:23:04] Ben: undecor, you know, democratization of surfing. You've got, if you're rich, you can surf, if you, if you can't. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, I find it fascinating where a culture of those things are going to go and, and what, or whether that it'll just be a little weird substitute of surfing or form its own one or, yeah, it's going to be.

[01:23:23] Interesting to chronicle.

[01:23:25] Tyler: I love how Nick Hounsfield with, with The Wave has, has done it in, in, in Bristol. Like, I think I went up there last, uh, November. I was there with my brother and, and it was a blast. I had such a great time. Uh, met up with a couple of friends of mine who, who live in Cornwall. So it was really cool. And like, there's a freaking sauna. That faces the wave and like you go after your session, you chill in the sun, you can watch people surf. It, [01:24:00] it had an apres ski vibe that I

[01:24:02] really enjoyed. That I don't get always here at the beach even.

[01:24:06] Like, it was really cool.

[01:24:10] Ben: Yeah. No, no, I agree. And like, you've got, everyone's stoked. You've had a good surf guaranteed unless something goes wrong with yourself. So you, you guaranteed waves. You've had a good surf. You sort of bit knackered, surfed out. There's kids, kids haven't. A ball learning like some first time, you know, there's stoke everywhere.

[01:24:27] So that environment, it's a bit like a, when you're on the slopes, everyone's pretty happy to be skiing, aren't they? That's why it's such a good vibe and you can have a beer and yeah, so I understand that. And you go there and think, well, this is positive, isn't it? Everyone's sort of getting hooked on surfing and loving it.

[01:24:42] I would say the only detractor, did you see those guys at the Bristol where they're on their long skateboards? Dudes like that driving their outies and doing their little snake hips. Pasture. Did you see those dudes? Oh, that's the only bit I would

[01:24:54] Tyler: see a few,

[01:24:55] Ben: my

[01:24:55] Tyler: saw a few. Thank you.

[01:24:56] Ben: my wife was me. She goes, what, what, what are those dudes doing?

[01:24:59] And I was [01:25:00] like, I, I, I cannot, I cannot answer you. She goes, I do

[01:25:03] Tyler: Surf training.

[01:25:04] Ben: I said, yeah,

[01:25:05] Tyler: the surf training,

[01:25:06] surf training on the, on those

[01:25:08] boards, on the skateboards.

[01:25:10] Ben: that's the only thing that was, uh, I was like, that's part of the culture. Fucking fair play. They're having a ball, mate. You know, wiggling their hips and snaking their skateboards around. And it was a nice, really nice afternoon out.

[01:25:22] Bye. Yeah, so it's

[01:25:25] Tyler: it's interesting.

[01:25:26] It's interesting also like the rise of, so I'm curious also as another topic, the rise of surf coaching and like kind of these surf coach resorts that have popped up, you know, like you got that one like surf dojo in Ecuador or El Salvador, and they have not only you going like a good wave in front, but then they got a whole concrete kind of pool to skate in and do your surf, skate, mimic, and training.

[01:25:53] And then you see on Instagram, all these. Random people who you're like, do you even know how to surf? But you're telling me, give [01:26:00] me instructions on how to surf. And, and I'm curious, like your thoughts on that as well. Cause again, it's a bit of a commodification of surfing, but you are providing a service.

[01:26:10] Ben: Yeah, you know, I had a really fascinating chat with, uh, Andy King, who was Gabriel Dina's coach. He's an old mate of mine. You know, Andy, you've met Andy,

[01:26:18] Tyler: I met him once when I used to work for Red Bull, and he worked for Red Bull, and we were at an initiation together,

[01:26:24] Ben: right? Yeah. Well, yeah,

[01:26:26] Tyler: And I was stoked as fuck. I was like, you're Andy fucking King, you overcame an ear injury, and you

[01:26:31] fucking ripped

[01:26:32] Ben: yeah. He's a legend, but he's obviously coach of Mick and Gabriel and he's involved in it's, um, flow state, which is the AI software that he's pulled. So they just literally motion track every way that you catch. Um, and then. You know, he's going to eventually be like all that, they, that'll go in real time, um, back to a coach like him, or it'll be artificially generated without tell you what to do on the next wave and sort of stuff.

[01:26:57] So, and I was like, I mean, he [01:27:00] goes, but look at the moment. Us coaches, we get in all these surfers, they don't get coached. They just learn. They learn wherever they turn up there. They've got everything wrong for whatever bike in a mechanical reasons. And then they have to try and fix it. And they can't, and you know, whereas now he said, it's going to happen that you just, when they first ever learn it, you just teach them how the right ways to do it.

[01:27:21] And they'll be better surfers. So I was like, well, yeah, I mean, that's, that is a good point, but I mean, we all did it right. Didn't we just went out and surfed our own way and learned to do it. But I suppose if they're trying to get these people to learners or who want to, as adults, it's so much harder, isn't it?

[01:27:37] When you're an adult to learn to surf, it's like, it's one of the hardest things to do. And that type of coaching will just make. Those, you know, improvements, which is where you get the stoke so much faster. So I can see why it's all there, but yeah, I mean, it's, it is commodification again.

[01:27:55] Tyler: It's, you know, I think like the way to improve is, is not even the coaching, it's just [01:28:00] watching yourself and having video footage makes such a difference. Like there's a, there's a guy here in New York, Yuri, who has a Instagram following of like 20, 000 people now, and it's just been him. Riding lots of different boards and you watch his progression over the last five or six years of surfing. And he's only been surfing maybe ten years. He started as an adult. But, holy shit, he's improved so much just by having a solo shot follow him. And he can just see how, oh, I need to do this, or I need to do that and change. And it's incredible, like, how one can improve just by watching oneself. That we never had before.

[01:28:42] Ben: Yeah, true. And I've, you know, I mean, I just, I'm always absolutely amazed the difference between the way I think I surf and the way I surf. And when you see yourself, that's why I don't do it. I just, I obviously clearly stop that because that is a, that is a gap too far for me. But, um, yeah, I

[01:28:59] Tyler: See, I'm always [01:29:00] pleasantly surprised because my self esteem of my surfing is way low. So I'm

[01:29:03] always like, Oh, all right.

[01:29:06] Ben: Now, yeah, I'm the opposite. I, I, I, I, I, the confidence is, uh, is always an issue. And I, yeah, I think I'm doing much better than that to the real, real cold, hard facts of life. But, um, but like anything, like if you get tuition or you want it, you practice, you get advice on things. You're going to get better, whether it's your golf swing or you're surfing or whatever it is.

[01:29:28] So. It's kind of madness now that that technology exists not to try and, you know,

[01:29:33] Tyler: It,

[01:29:33] Ben: to do things better.

[01:29:35] Tyler: it just feels like to me though, there's just also, it's ripe for so many, like, uh, scammers, you know, people who pretend to be good surfers and then they're giving, you know, coaching or surf lessons and you're like,

[01:29:49] dude, you can barely surf

[01:29:51] yourself. Like,

[01:29:53] what?

[01:29:53] Ben: Yeah. You see a lot of that. You see a lot of that. Yeah. The

[01:29:57] Tyler: of snake oil out there. Oh my [01:30:00] god.

[01:30:00] Ben: but a lot of those they really enjoy that sort of, it's like a new breed of surf. I think probably those adult surfers or when they've come from different backgrounds and learn that that's the how you learn by YouTube.

[01:30:10] Don't know that's they've got a thirst for that, which I don't think probably our generation. Well, probably they didn't exist as much but they do love that side of things that that how to businesses. It's like,

[01:30:21] Tyler: problem solving, you

[01:30:23] know, for a lot of people.

[01:30:25] Ben: um, I'll tell you what

[01:30:27] Tyler: Well, go

[01:30:27] on.

[01:30:27] Ben: hit me now. Hit me hit

[01:30:28] Tyler: No, no, no, no. What were you

[01:30:30] going to say? I

[01:30:30] Ben: now. I was I was just gonna I have a year if I say a lot of The Scandinavians and Germans, especially down in Portugal and France.

[01:30:37] So they just, I mean, there's millions of them. And, um, one thing they have got on lock is their warmup routine. God,

[01:30:44] Tyler: Yeah. I love, I love the warmup

[01:30:46] routines. They're great. They're great.

[01:30:48] Ben: three times longer than the surf.

[01:30:50] Tyler: I know,

[01:30:51] Ben: it's really impressive. I was just looking and going, mate, you gotta, you gotta

[01:30:55] Tyler: I know,

[01:30:56] Ben: I'm so tired just watching you.

[01:30:57] I was like,

[01:30:58] Tyler: I'm like, [01:31:00] I feel like slightly shamed when

[01:31:03] I don't, when I just walk down and paddle out and I

[01:31:05] see them like, should I be doing something? I don't know. Like, I just want to fucking go surf. The waves look good.

[01:31:12] And, and in New York, it may only last an hour.

[01:31:15] So,

[01:31:16] Ben: yeah, you, you warm up times. Yeah. I'm a bit the same, but yeah. Anyway, what was your next topic? Tyler hit

[01:31:22] Tyler: right. What do you think pro surfing is going to look like post Slater? Do you think it's still going to have that draw to people? Do you think, because that superstar is gone?

[01:31:36] Ben: I think it would have been a lot more dramatic if he'd sort of retired at his peak, like, when he probably should have, I think, in my eyes, just my own

[01:31:45] Tyler: Agreed. Pipe

[01:31:46] Master, he should have fucking walked away.

[01:31:47] Ben: dropped the mic, and I, I think, yeah, so, and then that would have been, you know, it would have been more what ifs, but I think, Over the last few years, I think that factor just hasn't been winning and he keeps losing heat and it's not his [01:32:00] best.

[01:32:00] I think that'll soften the blow somewhat. Um, I think, I mean, it's still, it's still massive instead of mainstream, but I think, you know, you, you get those Brazilians, I think, and that sort of new crowd that are just so all over there, guys, like Gabriel Medina and Italo and, you know, the passion. I think it'll be, I think the vacuum will be filled.

[01:32:20] Um, I mean, they're not, it's not a whole, it's not a charismatic kind of bunch, they're excellent surfers. There's no sort of obvious next superstar, which is interesting. Make competitive life, I think a bit more, um, you know, better, but I can't, yeah, it'll be, there'll be a big gap. There'll be a loss of interest across the mainstream, but I think, yeah, I think it'll, it'll recover fairly quickly.

[01:32:43] Tyler: Yeah, I mean, it's in the Olympics and, and that's also the last thing I wanted to kind of discuss with you is what was that experience like working on producing the, the content for the BBC, uh, covering surfing in the Tokyo Olympics.

[01:32:58] Ben: Yeah. I [01:33:00] mean, unfortunately it was in COVID. So we're up in a dark room in Manchester, which is like up in

[01:33:06] Tyler: Oh, they didn't fly you to Japan?

[01:33:08] Ben: nah.

[01:33:08] Tyler: Damn.

[01:33:09] Ah.

[01:33:10] Ben: I was like basically calling a QS event in, um, in, in Salford, but yeah, so it was interesting. Um, uh, and you said that, well, just being around that, that the BBC or one of those massive sports organization, the coverage and the people and the work and all that was, was fascinating just to, to be a part of, and then the next day after it finished, I went up to the studio and did like, Just with the main guy.

[01:33:38] And that's, you know, you said I like this 5 million people watching you. It's prime time TV.

[01:33:44] Tyler: Look at

[01:33:45] Ben: it's like, yeah. Um, I remember being in the green room beforehand and there was this guy next to me and he was like, He's a British Taekwondo gold medalist that had turned into a pundit and he'd been a bit of a hit.[01:34:00]

[01:34:00] He'd had a break through and he's, and he's like this six foot three beautiful looking man. And I was talking to him in the green room like, you go, so I'm a bit nervous mate. It's the first time in the street and he goes, Oh look, just be yourself. And I was like, Well, that's all fine for you. You're six foot three, but I can got a gold medal.

[01:34:16] You're handsome

[01:34:17] Tyler: Have you met me? You're like, have I, have you met me?

[01:34:21] Ben: So anyway, but it went well and it was fascinating to be a part of it and um, Yeah, just to be a part of that whole, you know, so, you know, i'm surfing olympics again It's another one light and shade that you talked about before i've got mixed feelings about it in some ways But it was awesome to sort of peek behind the wizard's curtain about how those whole thing gets put on and to be, um,

[01:34:41] Tyler: yeah.

[01:34:45] Ben: in my village.

[01:34:46] So, you know, so, so that was good.

[01:34:51] Tyler: did you, did you feel that surfing was well represented at the Olympics? Do you feel like they did a good enough job portraying it?[01:35:00]

[01:35:00] Ben: Yeah, I think so. I think, I mean, they got, they got kind of skunked a bit with the weather. It wasn't, it was like a tsunami came in and stuff, but I think it was better. That was a bit wild and woolly and it was a sort of surf against the ocean. And I think, General public, um, you know, just got that. I understood that it was difficult and it was physical and like for the Olympic stuff, you know, if it would have been two, three foot offshore, it would have been like, Oh, well, you know, I've seen it before.

[01:35:27] So, but I think Tahiti could, you know, change the game. Like there's some 24 stone dude in Canada, like who's into, you know, what's he into? He's into the pentathlon or equestrian event or something, you know, and he's sitting there and he's, and then suddenly like a. 12 foot Oo, you know, wave comes on his screen.

[01:35:50] He's like, what the fuck? You know, like, it's gonna blow brains if it gets like that all across a lot of people. So I think that would be a really fascinating to see what happens if, [01:36:00] if it turns on and, and they know how to, they know how to capture it. It could be sort of, it could

[01:36:05] Tyler: can you imagine if it's like 2014 Chopu when it was like, you know, when Gabriel won and like Slater and Jon Jon put on that performance like that, that would change surfing, I think. I think that would change

[01:36:19] a lot of

[01:36:20] surfing. um,

[01:36:30] Ben: if it's big and gnarly and it's just so beautiful and it's so different to everything else that's on offer I think it could be yeah it'd be interesting to see what

[01:36:41] Tyler: you think it should be in a wave pool, uh, eventually?

[01:36:44] Ben: I, I always originally thought, yeah, it had to be, it was my original kind of thing. I was like, well, it just makes sense. And it's going to be, um, but then I've sort of gone around to the fact that, you know, that kind of [01:37:00] does deserve to be in waves and that's the whole point of it. But I mean, it's, you know, France was good.

[01:37:05] I mean, it's France. Yeah, isn't it? And then I think snapper, is it Australia got the next one in 32

[01:37:11] Tyler: wow, I thought L. A., I

[01:37:13] thought L. A., yeah.

[01:37:15] Ben: waves. And then I think snapper might be after that in 36 or whatever it is. I'm pretty sure. So the

[01:37:19] Tyler: Do you think they could do it in Malibu?

[01:37:22] Ben: well,

[01:37:22] Tyler: how good would that be?

[01:37:24] Ben: I don't know where it's that they must've decided how it's going to be hunting tonight.

[01:37:28] Imagine, I don't know.

[01:37:29] Tyler: Oh, no, please. No, not Huntington.

[01:37:32] Not Huntington. No more hops.

[01:37:34] Ben: but I think it makes sense to put in the, especially when they, you know, they start going to countries and don't have wives, it's going to be so, but then you watch those surfing events. I mean, I suppose they're pretty boring, aren't they, in the pool, they get

[01:37:49] Tyler: They have to change the format though. The format has to be changed. Like, it makes no sense to judge it the way they judge it. Like, I think it needs to be like, uh, like how they [01:38:00] do figure skating. You have to hit a certain amount of maneuvers on the wave, you know, maybe it's like, and you get judged on the maneuvers as opposed to the whole wave. Um, you know, that sort of stuff where, where they change the format. So it's exciting where they're like, he's got to do an air reverse. He's got to do an air reverse to get the, you know, to do this, you know, and

[01:38:19] like things like that would add some more tension, maybe some more artificial tension.

[01:38:24] Ben: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I suppose they won't be able to do that in the Olympics cause it's also regimented, but for any other event, it seems like an absolute no brainer to just get the best surfers in a pool. pool for three hours and just come up with something that is new

[01:38:38] Tyler: Game of horse.

[01:38:40] Game of horse.

[01:38:41] Ben: to your wipeout theory that we talked about at the start, just add some.

[01:38:45] I don't know.

[01:38:46] Tyler: Add some obstacles.

[01:38:48] Ben: snakes, fucking sharks.

[01:38:51] Tyler: Surf jousting.

[01:38:53] Surf jousting.

[01:38:54] Dad. Dad. Says he's got jousting sticks. How much? How much?

[01:38:59] Ben: Tell him he's [01:39:00] dreaming. Exactly.

[01:39:01] Tyler: yeah, I

[01:39:04] Ben: Good

[01:39:04] Tyler: had to throw a little castles quote in there.

[01:39:06] Ben: Yeah. I liked it.

[01:39:09] Tyler: Oh,

[01:39:09] Ben, I have had such a good time nerding out with you. I hope, I hope you enjoyed this.

[01:39:16] And

[01:39:17] Ben: mate, an absolute ball.

[01:39:19] Tyler: so, uh, where can our listeners find the book? Uh, the Brightline Surf book.

[01:39:25] Ben: Yeah. If you just type in the Bright and Link Book of Surfing and it's on all the, yeah, Amazon and, um, Rizzoli Publishing, obviously through their websites, it's there, but Amazon has it, all the online bookstores are selling it. So a quick Google search will get it to, um, yeah, to post it to your door.

[01:39:43] Tyler: And, uh, where can our listeners find you and all of your wonderful work?

[01:39:48] Ben: uh, yeah, well, uh, if you just type in Ben Mundy and, and Sub stack or the surf bugle,

[01:39:55] Tyler: There we

[01:39:56] Ben: name, it should come up. So thanks for that. Yeah. Any, uh, you can [01:40:00] get free. It's all free at the moment, or you can pay if you, if you feel sorry for me, but, um, I'd say I have a, I'd have a little route around and see what you think.

[01:40:08] That'd be great for all your listeners, but yeah, Surf Bugle, Ben Mundy should find me somewhere out there.

[01:40:15] Tyler: And your, your social media handle,

[01:40:17] Ben: Uh,

[01:40:18] Tyler: if they want to follow you.

[01:40:19] Ben: yeah, well, it's just my name. So it's at Ben, B E N, Mundy, M O N D Y. I'm not prolific, but I'm, I'm there.

[01:40:31] Tyler: And, and listeners, his middle name is Barry Mundy.

[01:40:34] Barry? No, sorry. I had to do that. I

[01:40:37] Ben: yeah, I had a

[01:40:38] Tyler: as fuck. I was going to, I was going to do an Aussie thing, but I decided

[01:40:51] not to maybe,

[01:40:52] Ben: Wise coun wise counselling.

[01:40:56] Tyler: all right. Well listeners, uh, thank you for [01:41:00] listening and hope you enjoyed this great conversation. And of course, uh, don't forget to follow Swell Season Surf Radio at Swell Season Surf Radio on Instagram, and you can go to our website. So I'll see you in surf radio. com and we'll check you all down the line soon.

[01:41:17] Ben: Thanks, fam.

[01:41:18] [01:42:00] [01:43:00]