Surfing Over 70 with Dr. Bill Rosenblatt

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[00:01:28] Tyler: . Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. Dr. Bill Rosenblatt, a. k. a. Dr. Bill, has been surfing for 50 years all over the world. He's a licensed psychologist and senior fellow in biofeedback. He holds a doctorate in counseling from Lehigh University and did a postdoctoral work in clinical behavioral medicine at the MindBody Medical Institute at Harvard [00:02:00] Medical School.

[00:02:01] He has taught at universities, directed programs at hospitals. I mean, he was the freaking mayor of Lock Arbor in New Jersey for 10 years, and has written extensively on surfing and life. Bill was a co founder of the Jersey Shore Chapter of the Surf Rider Foundation and served on the National Board of Directors for six years, as well as chairman for two years.

[00:02:25] In 2023, he was inducted into the New Jersey Surfing Hall of Fame. Bill has been featured and written about in so much surf media over the years. He splits his time between his native New Jersey and Rincon, Puerto Rico, riding everything from a 5'9 fish to a 12 foot paddleboard, and most mornings he can be found on the beach or in the water.

[00:02:48] Except for today. He's sitting right here with me in our studio at Rockefeller Center in the heart of Manhattan. Welcome to the show, Dr. Bill.

[00:02:58] Hey, Tyler. Nice to be [00:03:00] here. I got rid of the five nine fish. Oh, yeah. In deference to my age, my fish is now six. Okay. Okay.

[00:03:07] Tyler: Well, we will let that slide. That's it.

[00:03:09] We'll let it slide. We'll let it slide. Um, I'm, so it's interesting, like you reached out to me after I did the, um, interview with the guys from, uh, you know, I heard there were no waves in New Jersey book with Danny DeMauro. Mark Neustadter and May and those guys. Yeah. They're all dear

[00:03:26] friends.

[00:03:27] Tyler: You know, but you had this little thing.

[00:03:28] You're like. They didn't really talk much about the rest of New Jersey. They tended to focus on Southern New Jersey. Now, I was kind of interested, like, When you reached out, I was like, yeah, there is so much more. And of course they, they did mention this was just a scrapbook of surfing. It wasn't a predominant history.

[00:03:47] Um, I want to know, like, you know, first, like, I guess, uh, what do you, what were we missing? What are we missing from the rest of New Jersey?

[00:03:56] Well, uh, they did talk about, uh, [00:04:00] The surfing girl in, uh, the surfing princess in Asbury Park, well, that's North and, and Mike May has kind of tracked it down to who it was.

[00:04:10] Yeah. And she was related to Bunker Spreckles, which is pretty ridiculous.

[00:04:14] Tyler: It's unreal.

[00:04:15] But, uh, after the whole, uh, Duke situation down in South Jersey, Uh, there were pockets of people from Long Beach Island and even north up through Monmouth County who started making wooden surfboards. Uh, I've got some pictures of some people from a whole bunch of folks in LBI in the 1920s, early 30s.

[00:04:41] Uh, there was a guy who recently passed away, Duke Fratton, and a few others who surfed. way up in Sandy Hook when Sandy Hook was still a military base. And, uh, and that, I would say from Seaside North is a [00:05:00] whole kind of a dividing line. And Mark and, and, uh, Newsteader and, and all those South Jersey guys, there was a ton went on right after the Duke and around Epsican Island.

[00:05:14] But. You know, I laughed when, uh, I guess it was you asked him, Where's the picture of Springsteen? Yeah. And that was what, that was what triggered me. And I was like, My God, Bruce, uh, Vince Tronick, my dear friend, has a ton of pictures of Bruce and Clarence, because those guys lived at the Islander Surf Shop, which was in Long Branch, and that was Vince's place.

[00:05:38] And, uh, Vince was also a member of the Weber team, and he started surfing under, uh, a lot of the guys from the Long Branch area. Uh, Charlie Kuhn and, and Mindex and those people who own surf shops up there. And it was almost as if there wasn't, except for once [00:06:00] the contest started, there wasn't much integration.

[00:06:03] Uh, people up north didn't know people in the south. And when you look back at it, uh, the whole ESA was started by Cecil Lear in Belmar, uh, my late dear friend, uh, and you know, that, that was immense, uh, and he, his respect throughout the surfing world is gigantic, uh, so, you know, I wanted to tease a little bit because Manusquin Inlet, you know, I remember, uh, Uh, there should be a chapter somewhere, whoever's gonna write that book.

[00:06:38] There was a period of time when we had to wear helmets to surf in Madisquan. Uh, there was a lot of years when We surfed in Asbury Park, but it was illegal.

[00:06:48] Tyler: I mean, what, didn't they only legalize surfing in Asbury in like 2005? It was probably

[00:06:54] around that time and it might've been a little before. Yeah. Uh, the [00:07:00] background of that was, uh, I was involved with the Jersey Shore chapter at the time, and it was absurd to us that you couldn't surf in Asbury Park, especially during the summer.

[00:07:12] In the winter, we would surf there and no one would bother us. But it was illegal. Uh, part of the reason it was illegal was it was when Asbury Park was going through, it's really the Robert De Niro movie, City by the Sea Days, when, if you've never seen that, they didn't, that was shot in Asbury Park and they did nothing to make it look worse.

[00:07:33] I mean, that's, that's how bad it was. And there was also some of the first organized surf clubs, like in Long Branch, there was the Kiernan organization. Uh, Kiernan Surf Club, it was at its own beach. Uh, we had patches, I should have brought my Kiernan patch. Uh, and it's, there's a plaque there in, uh, seven presidents, U.

[00:07:56] S. O. Beach now. Or not USO, next to what [00:08:00] was USO, you can tell how old I am because most people have no clue what a USO is or was. Which also, stream of consciousness, uh, my late friend Peter Cole was arrested in Long Branch. I Because I know this story. Peter was, uh, stationed at Fort Monmouth. Yeah. And he went down to the beach at USO.

[00:08:23] which was a really great break before renourishment, saw there were waves, put on his bathing suit, jumped over the wall to go in the water. And that was not allowed.

[00:08:35] Tyler: I, I heard stories of him, uh, you know, going there and, like, basically lifeguards trying to call him in and then chasing him and he just swam them and ended up rescuing the lifeguard, basically.

[00:08:46] Well, a lot of those early stories, Duke Fratton and those guys, when they would be up at Sandy Hook, when Sandy Hook was a military base, the military police would try to get them out of the water. So they would just keep paddling south [00:09:00] and end up in Seabright somewhere. And there was no one that could do much about it.

[00:09:06] Tyler: It's, it's so funny because it's, it's, that story is, is, uh, I think repeated, um, all throughout the Northeast particularly, like I, I'm going to talk to Sid Abruzzi in a little bit too, and Rhode Island was the same thing, Rockaway Beach, Long Beach, all in Long Island, all, you know, surfing was banned and it was interesting, like I, I'm curious actually, like why?

[00:09:31] What was the pushback against surfers? And I know we had a really bad reputation, but what was, like, the logic behind banning surfing? And why did it take so long to get approved? I

[00:09:43] think that they had no idea of the, uh, of what surfing was. You know, there were some lifeguards that were, you know, Use life rescue boards surf rescue boards, but it certainly was not at all popular It wasn't anything that that interested [00:10:00] people One of the first victories that we had through Jersey Shore chapter surf rider Was to open up deal to surfing.

[00:10:10] You couldn't surf and deal And part of the absurdity of it was, they had a, uh, they had to take a swimming test. And the guy that gave the swimming test spent the winters in Florida. So it was impossible to take a swimming test. And, uh, the story of how Deel became a surfing friendly beach, I'll put parenthesis around Deel, uh, there was a surf shop in Long Branch called Motions, uh, and one of the owners, Mario Kinkilla, uh, Mario was surfing in Deel one day.

[00:10:48] And as was normal, the police would come and threaten to arrest us and ask for people's names. And you were surfing, so I didn't have [00:11:00] any, uh, license or anything like that. So what's your name? Oh, my name is, uh, And you'd give them some fake name. Some of which were

[00:11:08] Tyler: My choice was Tom Curran when I had to give it.

[00:11:10] Well, this was way before that. This was way before that, and most of the times, they

[00:11:15] weren't even clean. And certainly, they were rather sexist at the time. But, uh, you know, they would So, Mario got arrested, and he just got Sick of it one day. So we contacted surf writer and we had a guy, uh, al ferguson who was Uh an attorney who had been a senior partner in mccarter and english Which was the oldest law firm in the state of new jersey And al had surfed in hawaii for years and he was when al found out about this.

[00:11:51] He said you know what? This is ridiculous We're gonna represent Mario. So the [00:12:00]first night that the municipal court and deal happens and, you know, people are there with their parking tickets. So Mario, the judge, Judge Papa, his name was, gets up and calls Mario's name and Al Ferguson and his senior partner at the senior law firm.

[00:12:18] In his pinstripe suit, gets up there and says to Judge Pappa, who looked at him really strangely, he goes, This is Al Ferguson from McCarter English, representing, uh, Mario Cancilla. We'd like a postponement. That was quickly a postponement. Uh, we fought it in awp for quite a while, and we ended up, uh, there was a front, uh, When they had the New Jersey section of the New York Times on Sunday,

[00:12:42] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:12:43] There was a, a wonderful picture about the victory that we had in Diehl. So we won Diehl through a court case. What was the argument?

[00:12:52] Tyler: I'm curious if you know, like, what did they, what was the basis? We basically

[00:12:57] said Diehl had X number of miles of [00:13:00] beach. You were only allowed to swim in, in one area. Yeah.

[00:13:04] Over by Phillips Avenue and And why shouldn't they allow surfing? There was very little actuarial data about injuries. Because, uh, that, that probably 20 years ago, uh, a couple of my friends and I decided we were going to try to set up a surf school. But since all of us were professionals, I had a license, psychology license, another guy had a stockbroker's license, someone else owned a surf shop and owned a house.

[00:13:37] So we went to look for insurance. And back 20 years ago, there was no comparables. Uh, I actually met through my quest for insurance. One of the guys in, in Long Beach, uh, Elliot Zuckerman. Oh, yes. I met Elliot. I love Elliot. What a character. I met Elliot through that. Surf for life, man. That's it. And, uh, and we got in [00:14:00] touch with Richard Schmidt in California and, uh, the Surf Divas in San Diego.

[00:14:05] We couldn't get insurance. Because there was no data at that time about surf injuries. What we armed ourself with was a few years later, I was, uh, one of the founding members of the Surfing Medical Association with Doc Rannacher. Surf

[00:14:21] Tyler: Docs! Yes! And you guys got to do your

[00:14:23] annual trip to Tavarua, apparently.

[00:14:25] There's one coming up, uh, in August in Honolulu. There's another one, I think, in October at Skeleton Bay. And Tavarua is every year. Do you have to have a PhD to go? No. No, no, no, no, you don't have to be an M. D. or a P. H. D. or any of those things. Sweet. You can be a barefoot doctor, I think the category is called.

[00:14:45] There's some interesting categories of membership. I'm the doctor of love. That'll work, that'll work. It's funny how small the surf world is, too, because we had a conference on the North Shore, and it was [00:15:00] one of the earliest conferences we had, and someone was working on a paper About surf injuries and the best paper was done in Australia where I think it was Bondi or someplace That's a big popular surfing beach where they categorized every injury that was brought to the lifeguards attention and Surfing came in behind stepping on shells and glass on the beach and the way in Athletics there were a couple of other studies that followed the way injuries and are looked at in athletics, it's injury per participant hour.

[00:15:41] So, when you look at how many hours a surfer surfs, and how many injuries have you had, well, how many injuries have you had?

[00:15:50] Tyler: Um, not that a few, but nothing major when it came to surfing. Most of it happened either, you know, pulling a muscle or something like that net [00:16:00] very rarely with like collisions or, right.

[00:16:02] Or having an issue with, uh, even hitting the bottom for the most part. Uh, the most common

[00:16:07] injury was, uh, a cut. Yeah. That was the most common lacerations. And when you look at it compared to other things, and this became really persuasive to municipalities, all of which have parks with jungle gyms. Mm hmm.

[00:16:21] Well, the accidents at jungle gyms is a whole lot more than surfing and cheerleading has a lot more injuries than surfing. So that became kind of a, a, a way to get insurance companies and everyone else to look at surfing. And then this was very influential for Asbury Park. Uh, the late George Downing and John Kelly.

[00:16:45] Yes. In Honolulu were really working at, at trying to stop beach nourishment and foster surfing. So they did a study on the economic impact of surfing in [00:17:00] Honolulu. Well, in one of the biggest honors I ever had was, uh, one night about midnight, I'm home and the phone rings, and my wife, my late wife, answers and she goes, Who the hell is this guy, George Downing, calling you from Hawaii at midnight?

[00:17:20] Tyler: How cool,

[00:17:21] were you like I was blown away. I was blown away. And it started a communication between George and I, and because of the time difference, most of it was done over fax. Can

[00:17:33] Tyler: you just, um, explain to our listeners who George Downing is, just briefly? George

[00:17:37] Downing is one of the fathers of surfing in Hawaii.

[00:17:41] He, uh, surfed some of the biggest waves, Makaha, and, and he was along the lines of, uh, Duke and the Beach Boys, and he's a native Hawaiian.

[00:17:52] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:17:53] Uh. And a phenomenal shaper. Phenomenal shaper and a really interesting character. Yeah. I mean, [00:18:00] I used to laugh when we would, he would only communicate because of the time difference via fact.

[00:18:06] That's so epic. That was great. So what we did, this was just at the very beginning of Asbury Park starting to gentrify. Yeah. The Surfrider chapter decided to replicate what they did. So we did a, uh, an economic impact of surfing in Asbury Park study. That whole program, we developed a campaign. And included in that campaign were a couple of people who had.

[00:18:35] bought homes in Asbury, who wrote letters to the Asbury Park Press at the time when people read newspapers and said, Hey, I live in Asbury Park. I can't even take my friends to the beach here because we want to surf. So we looked at Monmouth County only, and we used the same definition of surfing that George did and John Kelly did in Hawaii, which was basically pretty [00:19:00] broad, riding a surfboard, a bodyboard, or body surfing.

[00:19:03] Yeah. Yeah. And we randomly made phone calls throughout Monmouth County. And of course there was a ton of people that surf. And then we asked, how much money do you spend on things like purchasing things in surf shops, surf related things, parking, beach badges, food. Well, gas didn't benefit the municipality necessarily, but all the things that would benefit the municipality.

[00:19:28] And it became really difficult for Asbury to start to say no. And I developed a relationship at the time with a guy who for decades had been the, uh, manager of the lifeguards in Beach. Mm hmm. And he had a thing against surfers because he was always chasing surfers out of the water. Uh, we agreed that how about if you allow surfers to [00:20:00] surf before nine and after six, that was the first victory.

[00:20:04] And we offered the city of Asbury Park, a whole youth program where we were going to provide, surf rider was going to provide surf boards and instructors One day a week. So any kid in Asbury Park could come down and surf. They didn't bite on that initially. Uh, it's actually turned into, uh, in 2003, we had the first Asbury Park family day at the beach to surf rider.

[00:20:34] They just had one last week. Nice. And now there's something called the Asbury Park. Chris May, uh, Mike's son, started something called the Asbury Park Surfing Club. Every Thursday, there were kids from Asbury Park who'd go to the beach. So the next step, after we offered them the program and they said no, and we had two them on the economic basis.

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] We, uh, I made contact with who was becoming the new city manager. He and I became friends and I showed him all the data we had and he was pretty open to the idea, seeing that. Hey, surfing could be a big part of the resurgence of Asbury Park. One of the original developers back in the day, it was called Asbury Partners.

[00:21:26] They weren't necessarily the best guys, but they did get things going. Uh, he was one of the partners in that, had been familiar with Huntington Beach in California. For anyone that doesn't remember what Huntington Beach was in the 60s or 70s, it was kind of Asbury like. There was this little main street with a few shops on it and a movie theater there and a lot of surfers who lived up to our reputations back in the 50s and 60s and 70s.

[00:21:57] But this guy saw [00:22:00] The economic potential. Yeah,

[00:22:02] Tyler: well you turned it into Surf City of the East almost to an extent.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:06] Tyler: You know?

[00:22:07] So we got a, uh, we managed, as any good campaign, we looked to see, we designed the campaign to say, who can give us what we wanted? And we focused on three council members. Because there were five council members at the time.

[00:22:22] If we could get three to agree, then we could get it. Uh, they agreed, the three agreed. The initial, if I'm not mistaken, the initial, uh, qualification was they were going to put a lifeguard on the surfing beach. And they wanted to make sure that through beach badge fees, the lifeguard's salary was paid for.

[00:22:46] Well, once they realized what was happening, then surfing not only became an important part of the Asbury's development, but when you looked around as they were developing, you'd look at the signs that Madison [00:23:00] Marquette, that's the next developer, or Asbury Partners, you'd see signs of people surfing. Yeah.

[00:23:06] Tyler: They've used it to sell

[00:23:07] and, you know, see here now, which is 60, 000 people that come to Asbury Park and this year it'll probably be more so they can see Springsteen. Uh, Tim Donnelly, who's one of the founders of that, Tim was one of our surf rider guys in the beginning. Wow. And, uh. Tim made sure that initially, surfing, a surf contest, surfing shapers were included in the initial, initial draw for See Here Now.

[00:23:38] Tyler: And it's, uh, incredible how that festival has grown and I imagine now if you did that economic study.

[00:23:47] Right? Like Well, not only that, but if you go to the The, uh, the north end of Asbury, which is the surfing beach. Yeah. If you're a very old person like me, you call it Monte Carlo, because [00:24:00] at one time the world's largest saltwater swimming pool was right across from there, where there's now a senior citizen tower.

[00:24:08] If you're newer, now you call it the dog beach because it's where the dogs can go in the morning and in the afternoon. But, uh, that beach is packed. Gotta be careful where

[00:24:17] Tyler: you step, I imagine. Yeah.

[00:24:20] People are pretty good about it. To tell you the truth, I think people are better, dogs are better and dog owners than the people who just go to the beach there.

[00:24:27] Tyler: True.

[00:24:27] Uh, but now there's also a surf school there.

[00:24:30] Tyler: So, so, in, in, In theory, we can blame you guys at the surf docs for, uh, for all the proliferation of surf schools because you got the insurance. I

[00:24:42] would say, I would say that's a good part of it. Combination of, uh, combination of the insurance. COVID. Uh, you know, surfing has gone through spurts.

[00:24:57] I'm old enough to remember [00:25:00] the post Gidget era when a lot of people bought surfboards.

[00:25:06] Tyler: Oh, I hear from my dad, you know, who, you know, owns a sundown surf shop, one of the oldest shops in New York. And you know, he would tell me how many boards they would sell in a summer and be a thousand, like a thousand boards at least.

[00:25:19] And, You know, you hear people talk about the onslaught of new surfers, and you're like, it was pretty crazy there, because you're going from like a handful to thousands of surfers.

[00:25:32] Back in the day, literally, you would drive around, and if you saw a surfboard on someone's car, it was like you probably knew them, and you would give them the hand signal if you were coming back from the beach.

[00:25:42] If the waves are good, it was thumbs up. If not, it was thumbs down. I remember. And, uh, you know, I'm sure your dad will tell you. You know, your dad and, and my late dear friend and neighbor in Puerto Rico, Charlie Bunger. Yes. Uh, it's the same kind of thing. We had, uh, you know, those boards, the pop [00:26:00] outs came out everywhere.

[00:26:01] Yeah. And then, uh, surf shops started to spring up. Uh, I'm sure that, that Newey and, and those guys talked about Ron DeManna and the origin of Ron Jon. And I don't know if they mentioned it, but it was. They didn't really go into it, actually. Those got, Ron wanted to surf. Yeah. The Manor. And you couldn't get boards back then, you would have to make them.

[00:26:28] Uh, so, he wanted to order some boards from California. His dad said, Instead of ordering one for yourself, order three and sell two, and you'll end up with one for nothing. That grew into a little shop that sold surfboards, t shirts, and boat hatch cover tables. That was in the middle of the entrance to the Causeway in Long Beach Island.

[00:26:58] Tyler: And then, and then it [00:27:00] grew into one ginormous, uh Yeah, he

[00:27:03] went from there to, in the winter, to Cocoa Beach, inside a little strip mall, around where the pier is, where the big Grand John is now. Uh, and then a couple of shops started to spring up. Uh, Charlie Keller's in La Valette. Mm hmm. Then there was, uh, up in Long Branch, there was a Weber shop, and, uh, you could buy pop outs at some of the sporting goods shops.

[00:27:29] Yeah, and department stores too, they had the

[00:27:32] Tyler: Duke pop outs actually, right? My first

[00:27:35] pop out was a Lanny Kai orange pop out that weighed probably as much as I do. And it was orange. And I wore off the paint on the back from dragging it on. I can't even imagine how we learned to surf on

[00:27:52] Tyler: those things. Well, I want to go into this.

[00:27:55] Like, do you remember your first wave? And how, how you, you know, you started surfing? [00:28:00] Every

[00:28:00] surfer remembers their One of the columns I wrote in the Asbury Park Press was about asking people about their first wave. I would get sent, thankfully, to spend the summers with my grandmother in Miami Beach. She ran, she was the director of housekeeping at a hotel.

[00:28:25] And the pool concessions behind the hotels were exactly that. They were concessions. The hotel didn't own them. So, I would spend the day, And the guy that ran the concessions had, uh, spear guns, snorkel equipment to rent out to tourists and a surfboard. So, what little waves there were in Miami Beach on 17th Street in the summer, what windslop there was, we would surf.

[00:28:57] And my first wave was on [00:29:00] 17th Street in Miami Beach. And it was interestingly enough, right around the same time that, that the late Dick Cutree was in Miami. Wow. And he was doing diving exhibits and exhibitions and things like that. That was my, that was the first wave I ever stood on. Where was your first wave?

[00:29:18] Tyler: Mine was probably, I would say, I want to say, first bodyboard kind of wave would have been No, no, no. First real wave. First, well, it's like, it's kind of this weird thing. Like, my brother's, cause, my brother's first surf is, is also kind of tied in with me.

[00:29:36] Okay.

[00:29:37] Tyler: Uh, so, it was the weekend that my mother was moving out, my parents were separating.

[00:29:42] I was seven years old. My dad took us to Montauk for the first time, that I can remember at least. And we went to Ditch Plains. It was no one there at the time. It was super foggy and I went out on the boogie board. My brother took his [00:30:00] pop out Aiken model plastic from like the eighties that we had. And he had his first surf and I boogie boarded.

[00:30:07] I caught a wave on that board. And then I remember running into Roger fight and, uh, uh, seeing him and at that time he was quite swashbuckling, had long hair, ponytail, mustache and being enamored with him. And then Tony Caramonico was there and, uh, all these, all these characters, you know, and I just remember loving that.

[00:30:33] And then it wasn't until maybe like later that summer, we were at Lincoln Boulevard in Long Beach where my brother pushed me into a proper wave and I got up and then, but it took a few years for me to really get into it till I was about 10, like three years later, when we went on a trip to California to visit my uncle Rusty and, uh, and we went to, uh, Ocean Beach.

[00:30:58] And I took out this quirky [00:31:00] fun stick that my dad brought out, this quirky Carol fun stick. And I caught my first face drop wave. It was a re form. It was a whitewater into a re form. We caught it on video, and that to me was just like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm surfing. And it's interesting because like my, my brother and I are going to talk about this on one of our, on our hardcore history, surf history podcast, we're going to discuss, uh, everyone's entry into surfing in the beginning of like surf dynasties and such and how people learn.

[00:31:29] And I'm curious, like, you know, you, you, you wrote about this, like, how do, how did you find most people learning to surf back when you were writing that article? You were

[00:31:39] either enamored by the idea. Or had read something about it, you would, there were a couple of people who were at the time a little older and actually knew a little bit about surfing.

[00:31:57] We would go to the beach, [00:32:00] paddle out as best as we could. And I can't even imagine how cold we must've been because one of the, one of the regular things we did. Around Easter, we would go surf, and the late Les Reitman, who had the Hobie shop in Belmar, used to let us go into the shop. There were no wetsuits yet, so we would wear wool rich shirts, we would start a fire on the beach, and take turns.

[00:32:31] You could paddle out, you learned to knee paddle because you didn't want to get wet. I mean, I know now that the water Easter is in the 40s. Yeah. I mean, it's absurd that we did that. But, you learn by watching. You learned by having your friends talk to you. A few years later you started to get the early surfing magazines.

[00:32:58] Uh, [00:33:00] I did have a friend. I would love to find him. His name was Sammy Sabalowskis and he used to take video, uh, film of us. I would kill to find that. Well, maybe not kill, but I would love it. Especially at CUNY. Incapacitate someone maybe. I would think so. I would give up some good surfboards for that film.

[00:33:22] It was at Kiernan and he has film of us there, surfing at Kiernan and, uh, I mean, it was, there were older guys we would watch and they knew how to surf. In Belmar, there was a guy named Jake Pepper and C. Saleer in, uh, in Long Branch. There was Duke Fratton and we would watch them and they were, Very generous, as long as you didn't drop in, on telling you what you should and shouldn't be doing.

[00:33:53] And sometimes they got a little extreme about how they told you.

[00:33:57] Tyler: Gromit abuse. Exactly. [00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Exactly. It's an initiation. And little by little, you learned. And then, as the, the surf shop started to spring up a few more, If you were any good, you would hang out at a shop and surf whatever boards they could get you.

[00:34:23] Tyler: I want to ask something now. You talk about in the TED Talk and Danny and Mike May also really make a big, big thing of this. And we kind of touched on it that that first surf in continental U. S. was, you know, in Asbury Park. And it was, uh, we, we think it was. Uh, we pretty much know now it was Bunkerspreckels album.

[00:34:46] Yeah, I think. Um, I want to ask, like, what is the significance of that? Why is that important that, that people know New Jersey was the first, uh, place to be surfed in [00:35:00]continental U. S.

[00:35:00] Well, I think New Jersey just has a bad reputation about everything. You know, the title of the, of the book is so accurate.

[00:35:10] Uh, and I think, you know, people had no idea that A, there was surf in New Jersey, and I would say until the past, Decade.

[00:35:19] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Had no idea how good the surf in New York and New Jersey got.

[00:35:23] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:35:25] And it, we, when I traveled around the world back in the 70s and 80s, people were still, you're from New Jersey.

[00:35:34] What do you, there's no waves there. So the idea that, that this malign state, uh, could potentially have been the origin of Or one of the origins of surfing. You know, it's generally, they like to credit the Hawaiian princes in Santa Cruz. I'm not gonna argue or, you know. But [00:36:00] more importantly, there, we know that, that there were these surfers in New Jersey.

[00:36:06] I'm spacing on the name right now of the guy who saw Duke surf. Who, uh, Oh, I know who you're talking about. Who ended up going to Hawaii. Yeah. And becoming one of the

[00:36:17] Tyler: Rod? Is it Rod? No. He'll

[00:36:20] come to me eventually. Yeah,

[00:36:21] Tyler: I know. I know. I'm blanking on a two, so. Yeah, okay. I don't feel so

[00:36:25] bad. I guess I can't run for president if I can't remember his name.

[00:36:31] Tyler: Oh, well. Oh, well. I, it's, it's interesting because, like, I don't know. And, and I get a sense from some of your writing too, and, and, and this is something I think a lot of us collectively feel this almost chip on our shoulder about it all, about not getting the recognition that I think we, we kind of deserve, you know, in the surf world, in the greater surf world, in the surf industry, particularly.

[00:36:55] Not only do we have a chip on our shoulder, but we also love [00:37:00] to be with each other. You know, uh, there was an article that Nat Young wrote. Many, many years ago when people read surf magazines, calling us a tribe and he talked about gatherings of tribes.

[00:37:14] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:37:15] Now in California, they have gatherings of tribes all the time.

[00:37:19] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:37:20] Uh, I've been trying to get Richard Yelland, who's the producer of this, uh, Birth of Endless Summer movie to have an East Coast showing. How have they not? For over a year. I've been trying to do it. And. I've been trying to get my friend Scott Bass, who runs the boardroom show, to do something out here, right?

[00:37:37] The first time I mean, I love Scott, but he's very West Coast centric. Oh my gosh, yes. As was everyone on the surfer, surfrider board when I started. And as everyone in the surf media was when I started. Uh, Scott asked me if he thought we had first a space big enough to do it. You're like, [00:38:00] dude,

[00:38:00] Tyler: what are you talking about?

[00:38:01] Well,

[00:38:02] you know, there are some big spaces in New York City. Asbury Park has a convention hall, uh, are there enough surfers? And I was like, yeah, I think there are Scott, you know, there are different tribes, you know, we have, but everyone intermingles and we all kind of know the same people. Last week, two weeks ago, I was out in Montauk, you know, I was with my friends the Angstroms.

[00:38:28] Yes. I was with Tony Caramanico. Uh, I stopped by Long Beach often, you know, and I know the Scudans and Elliot and a good fisherman surfer John McMurray. Yeah, uh, you know when the Bill Finnegan connection when, when the surfing doctors were in Hawaii, that was right before Renneker wrote, uh, The article where Bill wrote the article about, and it was right when Bill moved here from Cal, from San Francisco.

[00:38:59] [00:39:00] And Bill and I connected after that. It was like in the mid eighties, this trip to California or Hawaii. And Bill wanted to know where you could surf here. You know, I showed him how simple it was to come down. to, uh, deal in Allenhurst and Asbury Park and Locke Arbor by train. And he also learned about Rockaway and Long Beach.

[00:39:24] You know people from Jersey. I know people from New York. Uh, and it's, it's odd because the South Jersey guys who wrote the book, they don't necessarily have that same kind of connection.

[00:39:38] Tyler: Well, they're, they're, I would describe. You know, Long Island, New Jersey, we're kind of the armpit of the U. S. They're a little more like, they're a little south of the nipple there.

[00:39:47] You know, I would say they're a little more south of the nipple. We're in the more pit where the hair is. And, uh, you know, the grime is a good way to look at

[00:39:54] it. Well, and I think also, uh, [00:40:00] Atlantic City, when Atlantic City was a center of things, it had an interesting population and it was a center, but Even from the founding of New Jersey, there was this difference that, uh, the king gave it to, uh, two guys named Berkeley and Carteret.

[00:40:18] One of them got North Jersey, and the other got South Jersey. Well, all the South Jersey people oriented towards Philadelphia, and all the North Jersey people, uh, went oriented towards New York City.

[00:40:29] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:40:29] You know, tonight, for example, the Phillies play the Yankees, which will be, you know, a massacre amongst the fans.

[00:40:37] I don't know about the game, but amongst the fans. But I think that's also why the North Jersey, New York connection is much greater.

[00:40:47] Tyler: Yeah. Well, it's also easier. Like winds go north, you go up to Long Island, go west, you go to North Jersey, and it's like, I mean, it's a lot more expensive these days to do, but [00:41:00]

[00:41:00] you know, expensive and a lot more time consuming.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:03] Tyler: Although I am tempted one day to just take the ferry to, you know, Sandy Hook. Yeah. It's only an hour. No, it's easy. It's a quick ride. It's much cheaper than taking the tolls. Probably is. I think the, just bring a bike. The

[00:41:16] Verrazano didn't read my, Easy pass thing. I went out to Montauk two weeks ago. I think that's 18.

[00:41:23] Yeah, it's like, wait, it's like, are you kidding me? You didn't even

[00:41:28] Tyler: get on the turnpike, you know, or the, you know, forget about it. It is.

[00:41:32] I think your idea is a good one.

[00:41:34] Tyler: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've been tempted to do that with a bike and just like throw the board on and go for it and, uh, cruise on down there and, you know, on a swell or the

[00:41:43] train from Manhattan.

[00:41:45] Yeah. A lot of people do that. You can walk from the train station in Long Branch. Yeah. To the surf. You can walk from the train station in Allenhurst to the surf.

[00:41:53] Tyler: Yeah, it's not that bad. Mans squad's not that bad. Even even Asbury too. Yeah, absolutely. So that's not too bad. It's all walkable. [00:42:00] Um, so let me ask then, like, you, you like have spent a lot of time traveling too.

[00:42:08] I love it. What, what were those years like in the seventies for you, uh, traveling? Like what were you, was that a time when you were thinking about career and life, or did you like. Well, my generation,

[00:42:24] career and life plans were dramatically affected by the Vietnam War. Yeah. You know, that was something that, that I don't think anyone can really understand that, how that affected everyone.

[00:42:37] Uh, in college, we would surf a lot. We would travel. Because we had student deferments. We didn't have to worry about it. But later on, when, uh, when we were about to graduate, and I graduated college in 1969. Wow, right at the peak. And, and I knew from [00:43:00] friends who were a little bit older that that was not some place you wanted to go.

[00:43:06] So, uh, I had a lot of dear friends who enlisted and went, I had a lot of friends who graduated college and got drafted. And, uh, what you see in the movie Big Wednesday was true for a lot of people. How could we avoid the draft? So my first, when I graduated college, I had a degree in social sciences and a minor in English.

[00:43:31] But I had, I was smart enough to make sure I had a credential to teach because I knew that you could get deferred if you're taught. Uh, I was, I graduated college June 1st. My student deferment was up. I was deferred. I got a 1A, which is like, Oh, you might be the next to go. Uh, I was working at the time as a, uh, running a parking lot and surfing [00:44:00] in South Jersey.

[00:44:01] I was in. Wildwood. Surfing Avalon and Stone Harbor and Cape May and Wildwood. Uh, and then I would drive wherever I could to see if I could get a teaching job. Uh, so I got a teaching job, which gave me, you know, August 18th, I got a teaching job. Wow. After escaping for two months. Cause by then, pretty much everybody knew what that war was about.

[00:44:27] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:44:27] Uh, and then as I was a teacher and deferred, that gave me, I wasn't married, so I could travel. All summer? Even The first year that I graduated college, I guess 70, I spent some time with my deferment living in California. I lived in Topanga Canyon and, uh, served Topanga and Malibu almost every day.

[00:44:54] And, uh, you know, I have a, a slide that typifies what it [00:45:00] was like to live there. We would drive through the canyon every day to get to Malibu. And it's a slide of little wooden stand. This is the height of hippie time. Yeah. A little wooden stand that had a picture of lemonade on it, like the Kool Aid kind of picture.

[00:45:16] And the sign said, Free Lemonade to Pregnant Ladies. Oh my God! That kind of, you know, that,

[00:45:23] Tyler: and, and I thought you were going to say, uh, it was liquid sunshine, actually. That might have

[00:45:29] been. It might have been, because I always laugh and say I don't remember a lot of the things we did during that time. But I do know we surfed a lot.

[00:45:38] We surfed. And, uh, so as long as I was deferred, I was able to travel without too much concern, uh, both in the United States and outside the U. S.

[00:45:51] Tyler: So you didn't have to, like, put a brace on and take your surfer knots and tell them and do all the fake stuff from Big Wednesday? Didn't have to

[00:45:59] do the Big [00:46:00] Wednesday stuff.

[00:46:02] One of the thoughts was, uh, if I didn't get a teaching job. Then it was like, well, what am I going to do? Yeah. And I did have one friend who, his plan, uh, which was kind of ill conceived, and he suffered the same fate that Mark Martinson did, is they were going to just keep traveling, and figure that when, uh, the draft notice came, they weren't living there, so where would it be forwarded to?

[00:46:29] Mm hmm. And, uh, Ultimately, they got, they caught up with him. I had another friend who decided he was going to gain weight to avoid getting drafted. And unfortunately he never lost the weight. And that was kind of the end of the end of him. But, uh, I taught for, Well, the, the, the get out of jail free card was both the deferment for teaching and when the, uh, [00:47:00] the first year I was teaching, I tore cartilage in my knee playing touch football.

[00:47:05] And now I was like, Ooh, Oh, all right. Got an injury. I got an injury that could get me out. And then the lottery came. Yeah. And that's a night. Very few people my age will forget sitting in a bar, watching them pull balls out of a bingo thing with your birthday on it. And if they pulled your birthday first, you were number one.

[00:47:32] Tyler: You know, it sounds now like so dystopian to hear that. Like you were watching on TV pulling up, like, Hey, you're going to go to war. You're going to war. That is so crazy. When I think about that now, I'm like, wow. It

[00:47:47] was really crazy because it either you had to deal with that or if you were a college graduate, a lot of times people felt, oh, I could, I could become an officer, [00:48:00] but in Vietnam, If you were a first lieutenant, you were getting shot from both sides because you had no idea what was going on.

[00:48:06] You know, I had a roommate in college who was a Spanish major. He went, he was in the Air Force, so he had no clue what was going on. But it affected everyone's lives.

[00:48:18] Tyler: It's um, it's a great movie, I don't know if you ever saw it, it's called Between the Lines. Yep,

[00:48:22] yep.

[00:48:23] Tyler: Phenomenal movie, listeners, I highly recommend trying to find it on Amazon or Netflix.

[00:48:28] Actually, Tom Luker, who uh, a friend of mine who lives in Puerto Rico, I surf with Tom a lot.

[00:48:33] Tyler: What a legendary surfer, by the way. From Long Beach

[00:48:36] Island.

[00:48:37] Tyler: Yeah. Tom Luker, I remember reading about him in a surfer magazine, Real Surfers Issue, and they talk about his, uh, high flying traveling act, you know, he was in Puerto Rico, but then toured all these islands and would just explore and find all these breaks and everything.

[00:48:54] Yeah, that was also the interesting part. I remember being in Europe in, uh, [00:49:00] Oh,

[00:49:02] Tyler: man,

[00:49:03] what a time to be

[00:49:04] Tyler: there. You know. The Norton Peterson era, basically.

[00:49:07] And you, if you found surf, you found it because you could smell it out there.

[00:49:11] Tyler: And, and of course, you know, lots of great fun happening there too. Imagine at that time, France, early seventies.

[00:49:19] Well, and people, people did things back then that you wouldn't even think of now. I mean, I got, they had these student charter fairs that you could get, or they weren't just for students. You could get charter fairs to Europe. Hostels were everywhere. And they had, American Express offices in most of the major towns.

[00:49:44] And if you went there, you could buy a car with someone, not a new car. Lord only knows whose name the car was registered under. I was part owner of a very old DuChevaux, [00:50:00]Citroen DuChevaux with, uh, the first group that I owned it with was a guy from Canada and a guy from California. And then we were in Spain.

[00:50:10] And Portugal, surfed in France, and at one point, we were going to go further north, and one of the guys didn't want to go, so we sold his part to someone else who came in, and these cars were, I think the only thing that saved us most of the time was the Canadian guy spoke French, so when we were in France, We had no muffler or whatever.

[00:50:34] The police would stop us and he could talk to the police in French. So we were able to do that. And, uh,

[00:50:41] Tyler: You know, what's funny is like how the more things change, the more they stay the same. And I'm, I'm curious, like, actually your thoughts on this, cause like I went to France, I went to Europe, we leased a Peugeot 206 rally car and drove that all the way down to Morocco, you know?

[00:50:55] And, and I think kids today even are doing. You know, they're finding their [00:51:00] own way of doing the same thing. I think so. Like, do you, as you've gotten older, uh, I'm sorry, as you've gotten wiser, you know, you know, um, do you see these patterns repeating over time? Like, as you go and you see a younger crew?

[00:51:17] Yeah? I do see the younger crew, but it's a lot more difficult because now, just A, to be able to have airfare to go someplace, B. The airline's charging to take your board. Yeah. Although a lot of people now are kind of figuring out ways to get around that.

[00:51:36] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:51:37] But traveling with surfboards is a pain in the butt.

[00:51:40] Yeah. Renting cars now. Yeah. People are so concerned about liability and insurance and that we didn't, we never even thought about those things. That was much cheaper to do too. And it was real. I mean, I think I spent four months in [00:52:00] Europe and I think I had 400 maybe. A hundred bucks a month. Yeah. And, and, you know, we were camping, we were staying in hostels.

[00:52:11] We were, we met some people who would surfers who would say, Oh, you guys want to stay? Yeah, sure. You know, that still exists. Yeah.

[00:52:19] Tyler: I think every generation finds their way, you know, and finds a way to work around the limitations that are there. Of course, it's, you know, things are much more tracked today,

[00:52:30] of course.

[00:52:30] It's much more tracked. And I think one of the things that is in the long run going to have an influence, living near the beach was very inexpensive.

[00:52:44] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:52:45] I mean, the house that I bought when I graduated with my doctorate in Lock Arbor, I paid 200, 000 for. I lived a block off the beach.

[00:52:56] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:52:56] That house, if I went to buy it today, is probably close to [00:53:00] two million.

[00:53:00] You know, how can you start out? And that's true of all my friends in California as well, people that lived in, in San Clemente, San Juan Capistrano, up in, uh, Central Coast, they lived there for nothing. And now, you can't afford to do that. What do you think that'll, that'll do to surfing and surf

[00:53:20] Tyler: culture, do you think?

[00:53:21] I think it's going to have a dramatic impact on surf culture because, uh, people can't afford to, it's hard enough to work and be able to surf and then have a family. There's a, there's an interesting kind of a reverse funnel that impacts surf culture. You know, at the, at the top of the funnel, a lot of people enter.

[00:53:45] And then as life goes on, people give careers and, and families and responsibilities and then savings and, you know, it gets, it gets tougher. I'm [00:54:00] thinking, for example, of the, the, I guess they're all in their 20 something, the local Grom crew.

[00:54:05] Tyler: Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:07] One of them, two years ago, took a job in Manhattan. Mm hmm.

[00:54:13] I don't think I've seen him surfing much at all in the past couple years. Another one is in the real estate business, so he can surf a little bit. Uh, two others started a surf school, so they're busy in the summer. Mm hmm. But not in the winter.

[00:54:29] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:54:29] Uh, and a lot of them still live with their parents.

[00:54:33] Tyler: It's, it's, it's interesting.

[00:54:35] Like, I find I'm, I, I feel like surfing is going the way of skiing in that sense, where skiing has become inaccessible to most people because lift tickets at Vail cost 200 for the day and, you know, or even like you want to go to Hunter, forget about it. Like you, you can't bring a whole family to buy a lift ticket and rent skis and all the [00:55:00] gear.

[00:55:00] And I think surfing is kind of going that way, particularly like. I look at Long Beach, New York, like you gotta pay almost 20 per person to get on the beach.

[00:55:10] You know, we were, we were talking not too long ago about if you were a surfer or wanted to be a surfer and lived somewhere up the parkway in New Jersey, yeah, and wanted to go surf.

[00:55:21] All right, well, I don't even know what the tolls on the parkway are, but let's arbitrarily say it's going to be 10 a round trip, gas, it's going to cost you 20, so now we're up to 30, got to buy a beach badge to get on most beaches, so now that's 40. Parking in Asbury Park on a weekend can be 30 to 50 a day.

[00:55:50] It's 100 to go surf if you're lucky. Yeah, and then you gotta buy a board, you know, all the gear. And a lot of those [00:56:00] municipalities, uh, there's been a lot of trouble with a deal, for example, over the last five years. Because since renourishment, there's a lot of good breaks there now. Yeah. But those homes.

[00:56:13] are summer homes, they're owned by uber wealthy people, and they don't like the idea that you and I were pulling up with boards in our cars that aren't Maseratis or Range Rovers or Teslas. We're pulling up and, and you might have towels around this, but we're putting our wetsuits on. We're parking in the street.

[00:56:36] Isn't

[00:56:37] Tyler: it illegal to get changed in some parts of Jersey? Some parts it

[00:56:40] is. Yeah. Some parts. I think a lot of people ended up Wearing, uh, speedos and robes and, and other things because it's like, well, I'm taking off my wetsuit, but I got a speedo on, I'm going to the beach. So there have been a lot of attempts to limit parking in [00:57:00] certain areas.

[00:57:01] Tyler: You look at the Hamptons, uh, it's the same thing. You can't surf anywhere there if you don't live there. Montauk too, they won't let you park a ditch parking lot without a pass.

[00:57:11] And passes are ridiculously expensive.

[00:57:13] Tyler: Yeah, it's insane. And, and like I feel very fortunate, uh, I live in Rockaway where it's free to get on the beach.

[00:57:19] It's free to park. Um, it's one of the few places where we actually have public housing on the beach too. And it's an anomaly, I think, for the U. S. actually. I

[00:57:29] think it's horrible because it's really making the coastlines the, uh, the domain of the wealthy. And that stimulates this whole idea of, uh, Beecher nourishment, and I don't call it Beecher nourishment, I call it property protection.

[00:57:46] Yeah. You know, in, uh In New Jersey, they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars. And what's happened as a result? Well, Long Bridge now looks like [00:58:00] Miami Beach. They've built all these high rise hotels and resorts on the beach. Deal is filled. with multi million dollar mansions. McMansions and stuff.

[00:58:12] They're not even McMansions. They look like they should be I think there's one that's bigger than the White House. I mean, it's ridiculous. And, uh, I don't know the exact numbers, but the amount of money that they've spent Renourishing the beaches in Diehl far exceeds the amount of damage that was done by Hurricane Sandy.

[00:58:37] Tyler: That's crazy. But not only that, like, imagine where that money could go to help. Absolutely. I gotta ask this then, because you were the mayor of Lock Arbor for ten years. Yep. What was that like, knowing the inner workings of government then, and like how, you know, How those things come about, how do you [00:59:00] fix it?

[00:59:00] Well,

[00:59:00] one of the things that, that was interesting back then was the realization that decisions are made by people that show up. Yeah. And, uh, at the time, Skip Fry's wife, Donna, and I spoke a lot and she was getting involved in San Diego politics.

[00:59:22] Tyler: I am a huge fan of Donna Fry. I mean, Skip, all of them, but like, she's been such a vocal advocate for so many years.

[00:59:31] So

[00:59:32] what I found was that, oft times, people didn't know how to go about confronting, uh, certain issues. And, you know, people in municipalities are very self interested. Uh, in New Jersey, there are, Certain, uh, laws, the public trust doctrine needs to be enforced so people can access the beach. Uh, [01:00:00] we almost had a good definition of access at the end of the There have been a few governors in New Jersey who have been pro shore.

[01:00:12] Yeah. Because they realized the economic impact. Uh, Corzine, before he left, had created guidelines for beach access. And his guidelines defined accesses including parking and facilities. And he wanted them to be at least every quarter of a mile there should be some facilities. and adequate parking. Well, when he left and Christy came in, Christy said, Christy, who now lives in Bayhead, which is one of the, again, a place where it's tough to park.

[01:00:51] And,

[01:00:52] Tyler: and well, he loves a private beach. Oh, he loves those memes

[01:00:56] are the best. He loves a private beach. But I learned [01:01:00] that if you could muster support from people about realistic things. We were able to save the Lock Arbor jetty, which was one of the best surf bikes back in the day, uh, from re nourishment the first time around because, uh, the municipality was asked to pay 25%.

[01:01:23] And when we spoke to people in town and saying, well, wait a minute, there's going to be a hurricane at some point, but there, we have no ocean front houses. Mm hmm. Uh, why do we need to do this to pay this exorbitant amount? Uh, I was able to ally at the time with the mayor of deal in allenhurst to say Why are we doing this?

[01:01:47] We were able to do a uh a little research on where they were getting the sand from And one of the borrow sites is out by sandy hook or was out by sandy hook Which is very close to where they had [01:02:00] been dumping dioxin So there was an oncologist who had been Did some research about, uh, Toxic sand. Toxic sand.

[01:02:11] And what the federal requirements for sand matching was. And the definition that they used to, for what was compatible sand was very broad. It was almost the equivalent of a grain of sand to a small rock. That was what was considered sand. And so we educated the community on, Hey, wait a minute. Why are we going to do this?

[01:02:36] What kind of gain are we going to get? And I was able to, because of that position, gain access. You know, it's one thing for someone to call up the head of the DEP and say, Hey, I'm Bill Rosenblatt.

[01:02:52] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:02:53] Was another thing to call up and say, This is Mayor Rosenblatt from, and I was able to get access to people.[01:03:00]

[01:03:00] Brad Campbell, who had been the director of DEP back in the day, he and I had a great relationship. I actually took him surfing in Lock Arbor one day to show him what, what it was all about. And he was a helpful champion for quite a few years, but Decisions are made by people who show up and people who vote.

[01:03:24] Uh, and there's, there's a fascinating, this goes back to the change in demographics at shoreline communities. A lot of the homes now in Lock Arbor deal on Allenhurst, uh, because of their expanse, they were initially summer homes for people. Well, now a lot of those people because of telecommuting or easy access now live there.

[01:03:51] Full time? Full time. Enough so that in small municipalities they can determine what vote gets. [01:04:00] Interesting. So, those kind of things have the potential to really impact, uh, everyday people in their ability to go to the beach and beach communities.

[01:04:12] Tyler: Do you, I want to ask then, do you, how do you feel about the, the re nourishments that are happening and what do you think are, because it's, it's, it's very clear that You know, we have climate change and the sea levels are rising and it's going to be near impossible to keep fighting it.

[01:04:31] What do you think we should be doing or looking to do to preserve? Since

[01:04:36] 1995, when they first started renourishing beaches in New Jersey, my position and the position of, of the organizations that I've been involved in has always said that beach renourishment is one of many tools. It's appropriate in some places.

[01:04:54] It's not appropriate every place. Uh, one of the things we were able to [01:05:00]demonstrate to the DEP around the first or second renourishment in Lock Arbor was that between the jetty Lock Arbor, it created its own littoral system. So we weren't losing sand. It was migrating from one place to the other. And that wasn't a place that you probably should be renourishing all the time.

[01:05:24] Uh, they renourish up in Monmouth Beach nonstop. Why? Because of the bathymetry offshore. You know, Monmouth Beach and Long Branch, that section was where a barrier island ends and the mainland starts. The idea that you're going to use the same strategy in Long Beach or on a barrier island as you are on a coastal plain or a headland makes no sense at all.

[01:05:48] And there are other alternatives that could be looked at, you know, in, in North Carolina, if a certain percentage of a house is destroyed, [01:06:00] well, too bad, you can't rebuild it.

[01:06:02] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:06:03] Uh, in New Jersey and throughout the United States, there's an organization, the Shore and Beach, I forget their real name, Shore and Beach Protection Organization, that has a lobbyist in Washington.

[01:06:17] And if you look at the, uh, Jersey Shore Partnership, which is one of the ones in New Jersey, if you look at who's on the board of directors, And who are their contributors? It's people who would benefit from development, the utility companies, the cable TV companies, the, uh, you know, and, and yeah, there's no question that, uh, beaches are huge economic engines, whether it be in, in New York or New Jersey and North Carolina, any place.

[01:06:50] So. This balancing act is an interesting and a difficult one. And the insurance is

[01:06:56] Tyler: getting impossible to insure these places. That's the other [01:07:00] thing that I think is gonna probably dissuade people eventually from living on the coast because you can't afford it.

[01:07:06] I understand. I don't know for a fact, but I understand in Florida, it's almost impossible to get insurance.

[01:07:10] You can

[01:07:10] Tyler: only get it from the state now. You know, you can't get it from anywhere else, my wife's insurance. But in a way it's

[01:07:15] crazy. It's like saying, we know you're a bad driver. Yeah. So we'll insure you.

[01:07:19] Tyler: I know , I'm, I'm also surprised we haven't explored more of like reef systems and things of that nature to help, you know.

[01:07:28] Yep. Just block a little bit that momentum. Exactly. No, that's, you know,

[01:07:32] we, we tried for a while, I worked with a guy. Uh, Shawmead, who is from New Zealand.

[01:07:38] Tyler: Oh yes, I know all about them. The um, what's the name of their group? Um, they've been involved with numerous things on developing reefs, artificial reefs.

[01:07:46] And what's happened

[01:07:47] is the, the reefs have in some places been successful. Yeah. Surfrider tried Yes, Pratt's Reef. Pratt's Reef, which was an abysmal failure. Sandbags just aren't

[01:07:57] Tyler: permanent. No,

[01:07:59] but, you know, [01:08:00] we're very willing to put subway cars in the ocean to create fish habitat. Well,

[01:08:06] Tyler: now they're also like, you can, you can grow reefs.

[01:08:09] They have those things that you can grow. You could put, uh, the, the, the ashes of someone or, you know, into it as well. There are many ways, uh, Greg Weber had a really cool design for a reef system that was also very friendly to swimming and good and safe as well. Well, like I

[01:08:28] said, it's Beecher and Archman is one of many alternatives.

[01:08:31] For whatever reason, my hunch is probably corporate economics, which then spills into politics. Uh, the motivation to explore those others hasn't been as great.

[01:08:46] Tyler: I, um, I'm curious, like, uh, you know, how did you get into the politics side of things then?

[01:08:54] Completely by accident. 100 percent by accident. Uh, my [01:09:00] next door neighbor, had been a councilman and the mayor in Lock Arbor.

[01:09:05] And for years, he would say to me, look, why don't you run for council? And I go, I can't, I have a private practice at night. I have a young, I can't do it. And, uh, what was happening is there were these factions in town. Uh, and one of the factions who was a real anti. Progress, I'll call them. For instance, beachfront in Loch Arbor for 285, 000.

[01:09:38] Back in, like, 2000. 86, 87, somewhere. And there were a number of people in town who didn't want their taxes to be increased, so they didn't do it.

[01:09:48] Tyler: Oh, man, the money they could have made off of that. Well, that, and

[01:09:51] then a few years later, uh, we were able to get a grant, a Blue Waters grant from the state of New [01:10:00] Jersey to purchase that beach, which had then gone up to 400 and something thousand.

[01:10:05] But when the state did its investigation, there's an agency in the state called the Tidelands Authority. And evidently, Deal Lake at one time had an, was, uh, had an access to the ocean. Not just the little pipe, but it actually had a mouth. So Tidelands said, we're not going to give you money because we already have a claim on part of it.

[01:10:24] But to get back to it, my, so there were these cross currents in town and my neighbor comes up to me and he literally went to freehold, got the petition that you need to sign, had people, the right number of people sign it and came to me and said, all you have to do is sign your name and I'll return the petition.

[01:10:45] So I did. And I became sort of the middle swing voter on the, on the town council. And then unfortunately, he got cancer and passed away and I was appointed. [01:11:00] And then once I was there, there were three issues that were very near and dear to my heart. One was, uh, Making sure that we could continue to surf at Lock Arbor Jetty and fight for nourishment.

[01:11:11] Another was the kids in Lock Arbor go to school and went to school in Ocean Township. So it was really a good school system, but the school taxes were absurd. So I wanted to make sure we could work something out about school taxes and that it would retain kind of a, uh, Neighborhood community. Well, that's what got me in there and I stayed in there for a while and ten years Probably and then it just got to a point where it was like time to pass the torch.

[01:11:43] Did you like it? Yes, and no, I mean it was a I enjoyed it to be able to have, make definite change in the community at the time. Like I said, we, we, I was able to help get a, uh, [01:12:00] uh, the Kylie bill at the time, which has passed, which put a floor and a ceiling on the school tax, which was great. At the time we were paying more This is in the, uh, probably early 2000s.

[01:12:12] We were paying more to send a kid to school, to the public school, than you would to send them to Harvard. But we were able to put a ceiling and a floor on that. I was able to prevent renourishment. And then later on, they had decided, because the flume from Deal Lake to the ocean was in disrepair, that they wanted to change the, uh, the jetty there.

[01:12:38] And I was able to work really hard with contacts through the DEP to only have it extended and not, I mean, the original design that came through from Trenton had the jetty extending out and then making, uh, An L, which would have destroyed the brick. It's, as it is, it's kind of degraded, but, uh, they moved the flume [01:13:00] out, which, but so I was able to accomplish those things.

[01:13:03] And, you know, my kids were young and, and I was, my practice was big and I was too much, too much on my plate. That's a lot.

[01:13:12] Tyler: I want to, I want to, um, pivot here. I want to talk about like your, your work, your therapy, but also like, You know, certain things you, you've kind of explored like balloon mind therapy, which was the science that shows that how being near in or on or under the water can make you happier, healthier, more connected and better at what you do.

[01:13:35] And I'm curious, like you're, you're kind of, you know, about surfing and its therapeutic qualities, which you've explored and actually

[01:13:43] I have. I've always been, my interest, even in the psychology field, was always mind body stuff. I wasn't like Freudian or anything like that, and actually got involved very early on in my [01:14:00] career doing meditation and biofeedback back in the day, and a lot of those kinds of things, looking at lifestyle and factors.

[01:14:08] And it was really interesting. You know, as do all surfers, you could be in a lousy mood, go in the water and come out, you're fine. When people are at the beach, people are not usually yelling at each other or pissed off or fighting.

[01:14:22] Tyler: It's usually going to and from. Coming back.

[01:14:25] Yeah. Uh, so. One of the things I started getting involved in was this idea that surf and the ocean could be healthy and therapeutic.

[01:14:39] Uh, so I was able to work with, uh, I helped bring Surfers Healing to New Jersey, uh, with Paskowitz. Uh, you know, well, not just Izzy, Doc was a friend of mine. He was actually an influence and,

[01:14:56] Tyler: and, and I believe the, the term just because you're not sick [01:15:00] doesn't mean you're healthy, which you got from

[01:15:02] him.

[01:15:02] Well, he got it paraphrasing Eleanor Roosevelt. Yes. I think the exact quote was health is more than the mere absence of illness. Yes. And then as. And these things just came up sort of happenstance that wasn't it wasn't me who started them, but uh, Izzy wanted to bring surface healing to New Jersey So I kind of formed a bridge between Some of the people in autism, New Jersey and Izzy and I actually found the initial one We could have held in Lock Arbor, but we did it we had it in Long Branch the initial one and then Uh, I got involved with a guy, Dana Cummings from California who works with veterans, Project Amp Surf.

[01:15:48] Yeah. And we brought that to New Jersey. Uh, Michael Ricci who has a program called Operation Beachhead with veterans and disabled [01:16:00] veterans. That's been going on. And now I actually just finished a book called Surf Therapy. Interesting. I can't think of the author's name. but there is an organization called the International Society International Surf Therapy Organization.

[01:16:18] They have been doing data based studies all over the country, United States, England, Australia, New Zealand. And there's data now to show the therapeutic impact on post traumatic stress disorder, policemen, disabilities, autism, emotional disabilities, depression, anxiety, Cystic fibrosis, which blew my mind.

[01:16:49] Tyler: Malleolus organization. I volunteered with Malleolus

[01:16:52] through Sam Hammer. And what I didn't realize, part of why Malleolus works [01:17:00] is because saltwater fumes help the lungs.

[01:17:06] Tyler: Yes. It's, it's interesting. Like, I used to have asthma as a kid. And then when I started surfing, that went away and I think I probably outgrew it.

[01:17:17] But I also, I always associated like. you know, having difficulty breathing with asthma. And then when I would surf so much, I would get waterlogged and I would feel like I'm almost getting too much oxygen in. And I always thought in my head, Oh, there has to be some connection here. You know, I always thought maybe being waterlogged helps open up your lungs.

[01:17:37] And

[01:17:37] you know, that and, and the late Jay Nichols, his Blue Mind, that, that book, Jay was a graduate student with, uh, a good friend who was the head of the Duke Marine labs and preceded me. As the chairman of the board of Surfrider, Mark Orbach, uh, and that whole idea. that literally [01:18:00] there are chemicals, brain chemicals that change when you're on in or near the water.

[01:18:05] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:18:06] And now the data, both the data that that's real, it's not just in our head. Well, it is in our heads, but that's real and it's chemical, biochemical, neurochemical, and that different groups benefit from it is, is fascinating to me. Uh, it's just, you know, I've seen what happens last. Last week, I think it was last week, we had the family day at Asbury Park.

[01:18:32] Which families and kids who live in Asbury Park but can't afford to go to the beach, uh, come. I mean, Asbury Park's having an interesting dilemma right now. They have decided that for low income families, and I don't know how many, I'm not exactly sure of the policy, they're going to allow them free beach access.

[01:18:54] That's amazing. But, It's created a controversy. How? How can they? Why [01:19:00]should they get free access and not us? And in New Jersey, there's a law based upon a court case that non residents can't be treated differently than residents. So you can't, because a lot of municipalities did years ago. Yeah. They would have, if you lived in a town, your beach badge was X, and if you didn't live in a town, it was 500X.

[01:19:25] So

[01:19:26] Tyler: it was a good intention good

[01:19:27] intention, but now we're in a you know, like anything else There's we keep looking for simple answers to complex problems and there aren't

[01:19:36] Tyler: yeah, that's it's interesting I you know had on my show a few episodes ago Nick Hounsfeld who runs the wave in Bristol Which is a wave pool and that was his all The reason for creating that was for therapy reasons.

[01:19:53] He's in the book. Yeah.

[01:19:54] Surf therapy book. Yeah.

[01:19:55] Tyler: It's amazing, you know, and it's like, I really, I [01:20:00] believe that surfing can really help people. Uh, you know, and you don't have to be good. You don't have to do it a lot even. It could just be a couple times even just. to reawaken the senses and connect you again.

[01:20:12] One of the things that struck me in reading this SIRF therapy book, uh, a lot of, one of the better psychological treatments for post traumatic stress disorders is called eye movement desensitization, EMDR. And in a way, it's having people scanning back and forth and back and forth. And whoever was, wrote, Did the studies and was working with surfers said when you're in the ocean and you're looking for a way That's exactly what you're doing.

[01:20:38] You're scanning back and forth. You're scanning back and forth and it's like god this stuff makes sense so That's pretty interesting. I um I want

[01:20:49] Tyler: to, I want to then ask, like, you're, you're a licensed psychologist and, and someone who has wisdom and experience some, some very big highs and lows. And [01:21:00] I'm curious how you have been able to ride these waves of change throughout your life.

[01:21:05] And, and what advice you can share with me and the audience about dealing with all the peaks and troughs in life?

[01:21:11] Well, uh, let me, uh, to be entirely accurate, I'm retired and I gave up my license. Yeah. So I'm not, I'm no longer a licensed psychologist. But you have

[01:21:20] Tyler: experience. Yes. Absolutely.

[01:21:22] Absolutely. You know, I think that, that we can control very few things in life.

[01:21:30] We can control basically three things. You can control how you breathe, but you have to pay attention to it. Mm hmm. And there's a wonderful book called Breath. Everyone,

[01:21:42] Tyler: everyone tells me to read this book. It's a great book.

[01:21:45] You can control breathing, but you have to pay attention to it. Yeah. You can control how you hold your body.

[01:21:50] But again. You have to pay attention to it and you can control where you choose to put your mind, you know, [01:22:00] that's important. Uh, Our and maybe this falls in the category of values or morals or belief systems. God gave you one body. You're going to have it your whole life. You better take care of it.

[01:22:14] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:22:14] Because if you don't, uh, I think it's the Dalai Lama who was quoted as saying, they asked him about what was so strange. about humans. And he said, well, humans are, they, they destroy their body, trying to earn money. And then later on, they spend their money trying to get health. And it's true. So. You know, most people, and we're in kind of the heart of it here, uh, most people are not attentive to their health, you know, you look at what people eat, you look at how much sleep they get or don't get, you look at how much pleasure they get from whatever exercise [01:23:00] they're doing.

[01:23:01] You know, it's one thing to exercise. Kevin Short, uh, was on a podcast with, uh, he's an orthopedist. He was on a podcast with Rastavich recently, and he talks about, uh, playing, the importance of play as opposed to necessarily working out. You know, if you're, and I'm not putting it down, but if you're not enjoying CrossFit, what's the purpose?

[01:23:28] Yeah.

[01:23:29] Tyler: Well, you're not getting the benefits of the enjoyment then, right? Exactly.

[01:23:32] Exactly. So, You know, in order to balance, and I think that's a key word for people, in order to balance life, some, not sure if it was Freud or whoever, said, you know, good life is one where you work well, you play well, and you love well.

[01:23:48] And if you look at most people, they're over invested in one of those things. There's not good balance. Uh, so, if you look at the [01:24:00] longevity studies, the blue, the blue areas of the world, people who've lived over a hundred. You talk to them or look at those studies and they've talked about sense of purpose.

[01:24:11] What am I here for? And all too often I've seen, and I'm sure you know people, and there aren't too many surfers who fall in this category whose purpose is to just make as much money as they can. That's not their goal in life. You know, I don't know too many surfers that are driving around in, uh, the fanciest Range Rovers or Teslas that are out there.

[01:24:33] Yeah.

[01:24:33] Tyler: Well, nowadays more so because of the, because of, you know, living on the beach and they can only afford it, but, uh, There's a couple, but that's not the most part, you know,

[01:24:44] and, uh, uh, I think it helps for anyone to find something that's important to you becomes a meaning in your life, whether that be not exclusively professional, but both professional [01:25:00]and personal, to be able to nurture yourself, Your body and your relationships.

[01:25:06] One of the things that surfing gives us, which is a true gift, I'm sure you have friends that are half your age. You see 'em at the beach. Yeah. You tease them. I love hanging with beach. You give them nicknames, they court. I love the grommets. Exactly. They talk to you. Well that's not usual for most people.

[01:25:28] Yeah, I know. . You know when I was in my office and I retired six years ago and I was 70 and I would often see people who were my age, it was like, holy crap. That's like my grandmother . And it's an interesting comment 'cause on the Facebook group, the surfer 70 and over, a lot of people make similar comments about how.

[01:25:48] When you're surfing, you're amongst. active people of all different ages. And that helps keep you young. So that's something that you enjoy. So you're [01:26:00] not just in a finite peer group because ultimately my late mother, God bless her, uh, lived into her. She lived to 99, but in her late 80s, she used to complain that most of her friends were dying.

[01:26:16] And I would laughingly say to her, well, you should have made younger friends. And we're in that. We're lucky enough to have younger friends. It's

[01:26:25] Tyler: honestly, like, one of the best things about surfing has, has kept, and not just surfing, like, I know plenty of guys who are my age who surf, but they don't engage so much with younger people.

[01:26:36] The thing about this podcast that I love doing is, I get to constantly engage with much younger people, be exposed to new ways of thinking, new ways of outlook on life. And it keeps me feeling fresh. And, you know, I like to think I'm, I mean, I'm, I give off like awful dad joke vibes a lot, but I, I really try to.

[01:26:59] [01:27:00] Embrace it. Yeah. I try to embrace the, the, the youth culture though, still, like I try to listen to new music that younger people listen to. I lied. I try not to stay stuck in a regimen. of thinking and behaving and wanting to constantly keep up with the youth because that makes you feel younger.

[01:27:19] Well, and also it goes both ways.

[01:27:22] Don't look at what you have through your wisdom and experience and what you're, as as that's bad. No. Because you have connection and all this really relates to surfing. Your generation has connection to surf culture. Why? I think because we had surfing magazines. Yes. I had an experience over the summer, over the winter, I'm sorry.

[01:27:51] There's a young guys, probably in his twenties, really nice guy, graduated college. She's an EMS, lives and works in the Outer Banks. She was working in a [01:28:00] surf shop in Rincon and one day somebody brought in an MR. He had no idea who MR was. What a shame. Exactly. And that got me thinking, well, why does this kid not know who MR is?

[01:28:15] No magazines. No magazines. Only social media. Exactly. And social media is, has some benefits, but it's not the healthiest thing in the world. And uh, Definitely not. You know, we have, uh, so, so being able to have cultures, you know, Interact, not just say one is better than the other or I want to adopt all of that.

[01:28:40] You know, there's a lot of guys where I'm surfing lately who are into gliders. Oh, I love gliders.

[01:28:47] Tyler: Oh my God. One of my favorite things to do.

[01:28:50] Yeah.

[01:28:50] Tyler: Keeps you

[01:28:51] young. Exactly. Keeps you young. And you see on the other hand, all these, some of these young, I would never ride a glider, never ride a longboard.

[01:28:59] Tyler: That'll change [01:29:00] when they hit a certain age. And they can't pop up

[01:29:02] as quickly or they, uh, yeah. So, you know, I think that, that. In terms of advice to people, find something you're passionate about. Take care of your health. Don't eat crap. If your grandmother wouldn't have eaten it, you shouldn't either. Learn how to breathe, exercise and have fun.

[01:29:26] If you don't have fun and you know, you have to have a good social network. I'm sure that you have people. that you talk to daily?

[01:29:34] Tyler: I'm, I'm very fortunate, uh, that I have a good network. You know, um, obviously, you know, I have a, a, one of the things that I found that brought me a lot of joy actually was I never liked working out.

[01:29:46] I hated going to the gym. But now I work out with my wife. We do a private class with a friend. Okay. That's become one of the, uh, The things I look forward to every week, twice a week, we do it at least. And it's like [01:30:00] things like that, uh, where you can look forward to something I think is really important.

[01:30:04] And it also becomes surf specific. Exactly.

[01:30:06] The older you get, you got to stay in shape, especially here on the East coast because we're not surfing every day.

[01:30:13] Tyler: Oh my

[01:30:13] gosh. And the waves are small and weak and the waves are small, weak. And we don't get, I remember once surfing in San Onofre with, uh, one of my California friends.

[01:30:25] And he was going, why are you taking so many waves?

[01:30:32] I said, because on the East Coast, they could be here this morning and gone this afternoon.

[01:30:38] Tyler: I, uh, many listeners have probably heard me say this before, but I've, I have this theory. East Coast surfers, we're hunters and gatherers, and so it's feast or famine. West Coast, they're agrarian, they're agricultural, you know, they can plan their surfs out weeks in advance almost, you know, and so they can kind of be like, yeah, we'll moderate and we have to like gorge.

[01:30:59] We have [01:31:00] to drop everything. Arrange our lives so we can

[01:31:02] drop everything and go, oh, I'm sorry, I used to schedule patients around what time I thought tides were going to come. I love that. That would be, uh, one of the things I, I enjoyed doing. Well, you know, it's low tide. It's such a time. So if I take this break.

[01:31:22] Tyler: Dr. Bill, I just want to say this has been such a wonderful pleasure talking to you. I have. Thoroughly enjoyed this. The

[01:31:31] pleasure's been mine and I think we've been all over the place.

[01:31:34] Tyler: Yeah, we covered a lot of ground and I I love that. I love those are like my favorite conversations where I have my my guidelines here, but my favorite is when I don't even have to look at it and it's just this is what we've done.

[01:31:47] We've just kind of gone all over the place and I really appreciate this and I appreciate you coming into the studio making the trip. Um, Where can our listeners find you if they want to reach out or ask [01:32:00] for advice or anything?

[01:32:01] Uh, I have a Facebook page, the Surfer 70 and Over Facebook group. Uh, you can become a visitor, but you can't make comments unless you're 70 and over.

[01:32:14] And if you are 70 and over, you have to answer the questions to become a member. I have an Instagram handle. It's Dr. Dr. Viejo, V I E J O, which in Spanish Uh, so I'm on Instagram. And, uh, pretty much you can find me, I would say between, uh, May and November, you can find me between six and eight in the morning with my dog, checking the surf or surfing somewhere between, uh, Asbury park and deal.

[01:32:52] And in the winter, you can usually find me around the same time, uh, looking at parking lots because I live right up the [01:33:00] hill from there. Nice. And that's where you'll find me.

[01:33:04] Tyler: Listeners, go check it out, check him out, and, uh, gosh, again, thank you so much, Dr. Miller. Thank you, Todd. This is so much fun. It was great.

[01:33:12] And, uh, I just got to give a quick shout out here to our engineer, Joe, who's always the man, uh, who treats us so well and takes good care of us and makes us sound good. And, uh, And gotta give a shout to Rockefeller Center in the newsstand studio here for letting us hang. And of course, listeners, don't forget to check out Swell season Surf Radio at Swell season Surf radio on Instagram.

[01:33:33] Or you could go to our website and uh, don't forget to hit like and subscribe. And hopefully we'll see you all down the line soon. You, you, [01:34:00]