Stormrider with Bruce Sutherland

[00:01:11] Tyler: Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. In the fall of 2002, I had set about on a trip, or a journey if you want, traveling from the slabby reefs of Ireland, down through the famed beaches and points of the Basque coast, along the dry tip of Portugal and Spain, finding seldom surfed reefs and points, and then on down to Tagazoute, Morocco for leg burners.

[00:01:42] Tyler: In all that time, we never used an actual roadmap, and definitely couldn't use our phones. But we had the Stormrider Guidebook, a holy bible of surf travel. It served as our North Star without giving out too many secrets. It gave us a foundation to [00:02:00] explore and discover, and of course, Score some insane waves.

[00:02:05] Tyler: For those of you uninitiated, the storm rider guidebooks are some of the biggest, most comprehensive guides to the waves on the planet. Surf the storm rider guidebooks explored every dynamic surf zone known to man from every world famous beach to obscure reefs on the fringes of the known surf world.

[00:02:26] Tyler: These books. are the Lonely Planet guides of surfing and it takes a certain obsessive mind to thoroughly go through surf spot after surf spot to document every element you would need to know about a certain break. What tide is best? Which direction swell works? How heavy are the locals? Where to eat?

[00:02:47] Tyler: Which surf shops to check out? And so much more. It's truly A masterpiece and the author is Bruce Sutherland and to say he's obsessed is [00:03:00] an understatement. Bruce grew up in Sydney, Australia, but eventually make his way to the UK and more importantly, Europe. Eventually, he and his guidebook partner, Ollie Fitch Jones, would launch a Stormrider guidebook and publishing house, Low Pressure.

[00:03:17] Tyler: Which would then eventually evolve into London's first proper surf shop. Bruce and his partner Ollie recently launched the online version of the Stormrider guidebook. And holy crap, this thing can keep you occupied for hours upon hours with daydreams of surfing empty points in Angola, to crazy perfect reefs of the Maldives, to the obscure spots of Pakistan.

[00:03:44] Tyler: It has everything you need without giving away the farm. It leaves much to the imagination and hopefully will inspire all of you listening to go search for waves outside your comfort zone and beyond the surf camp walls. And [00:04:00] I am so stoked and it is my absolute pleasure to welcome onto the show, Mr.

[00:04:06] Tyler: Bruce Sutherland. Bruce, welcome to the show, mate.

[00:04:10] Bruce: Wow. Well, thanks very much for that, uh, extremely kind introduction. Um, although I have to just correct you slightly. Um, in that, um, when I, when I met Ollie, he'd already started the process some years before, actually.

[00:04:34] Bruce: And he worked, uh, He met a Kiwi guy on a building site and, uh, Tim Ranger, he was, he was instrumental in, in getting the Stormrider guides going. Um, and then, uh, yeah, they opened the surf shop in London in Notting Hill in 92 and that's when I walked in the door and, uh, yeah, never left.

[00:04:59] Tyler: [00:05:00] Oh, man.

[00:05:01] Bruce: Yeah,

[00:05:02] Tyler: thanks for correcting me on that.

[00:05:03] Bruce: no, that's fine.

[00:05:05] Bruce: Um, uh, you know, Ollie, Ollie is, uh, kind of unusual in that he was a, he was what you guys like to call a Val, and, um,

[00:05:15] Tyler: Vulnerable adult learner. I love it.

[00:05:18] Bruce: that's it, yeah, but. Oh my god, he, he went, uh, he, he went hard right from the, right from the get go. Um, I think he was mid 20s and he just got one, used to get these crazy round the world tickets, um, that were cheap as hell and, mate, he, he went around the world with a hot stuff surfboard and, um, very little knowledge.

[00:05:49] Bruce: Um, and certainly not much surfing experience. And he ended up surfing, he spent a bunch of time in Oz. Um, and then next place he finds it, he's in the Cook [00:06:00] Islands, then Huahine. And he's, he's surfing with the locals in the mid eighties. As a complete, you know, kind of newbie, you know, I mean, he's, you know, he's, um, uh, he's decent, but, uh, he really dived in deep end and then he eventually got back home, um, before.

[00:06:23] Bruce: erroneously getting off the plane in uh, Mauritania. He thought he was in the Canary Islands and he got off the plane. He's going, that's funny. Nobody else is getting off the plane. And the, the, the plane only stopped there once a week. So he spent a week in a compound with no, no money, no equipment. And this family just looked after him.

[00:06:44] Bruce: And then when the next plane came in, he got on and flew like 50 minutes to the Canary Islands, you know.

[00:06:50] Tyler: Well, were there waves in the Mauritania island then?

[00:06:53] Bruce: Well,

[00:06:54] Tyler: to sustain them.

[00:06:55] Bruce: Mauritania does have, have plenty of surf, but it is [00:07:00] extremely, well, it's always been sketchy from a political and, and, you know, little issue of war and mines and all that stuff. Um, but, uh, I think you might've come across the, the footage of the, there's a, a large pier, um, uh, near, near, near the capital, Warcho.

[00:07:21] Bruce: And, um, uh, and that's where most of the surfing goes on. Cause the rest of it is Sahara and just blown out beachy. So,

[00:07:30] Tyler: wow.

[00:07:31] Bruce: but anyway, yeah, so that, that was all his story. And, um, yeah, so, uh, so I came into it in 92, so there you

[00:07:40] Tyler: So, I guess, uh, how did you end up then in the United Kingdom and how did you end up there at the shop? Like, what were you doing that led you on that path?

[00:07:53] Bruce: Ah, it's the old classic, mate. I met a, uh, a London [00:08:00] girl in Bali in 89 and she was actually, uh, working there importing clothes back in the day when you could just, you know, go and buy clothes. As

[00:08:14] Tyler: Throw them in a, in a bag and fly it back and sell back

[00:08:17] Bruce: a bag and, yeah,

[00:08:18] Tyler: Camden markets.

[00:08:20] Bruce: No, no, she was actually working for a shop

[00:08:23] Tyler: All right. All right.

[00:08:24] Bruce: it was a bit more professional than that.

[00:08:26] Bruce: But the, the, the factory setups were, were really quite dodgy and they didn't, they didn't, um, understand a lot. So I, I spoke half decent Indonesian from school. And so I worked as a translator for her, stayed an extra month. We went to Gradjigan, um, stuff like that. And, um, and then.

[00:08:46] Tyler: to set up

[00:08:48] Bruce: came to Australia for a year and could only stay a year because the Aussies are fascists with visas.

[00:08:54] Bruce: And, um, and my grandfather was born in Scotland. [00:09:00] in 1869 and he moved to Australia in the 1890s and started the Scottish Society.

[00:09:09] Tyler: exactly.

[00:09:09] Bruce: So, um, so I've, uh, I've got a, I now have a British passport, but I had indefinite right to remain. So I came over and, um, I could stay without a problem. And, uh, it's, yeah, it's now 35 years in London.

[00:09:27] Bruce: So, made the surfers path, you know, you're never quite sure where it's going to lead you. And I could never have suggested that this was going to be my path, but that's how it's turned out. Um,

[00:09:51] Tyler: through, uh, mates, family? Like, curious, Koolite? Um,

[00:09:58] Bruce: [00:10:00] yeah, no, you've, you've, you've hit a few of the key words there. My father was a, uh, a really good body surfer. And he took us to the beach every Sunday morning since I could remember. So we learned, we first learned to body surf, then we got surf mats. You know, rubbed all the skin off our stomachs and nipples.

[00:10:25] Bruce: Um, and then, um, Kentucky Fried Chicken used to give away a free foam, foamy with a family bucket of chicken.

[00:10:37] Tyler: very

[00:10:39] Bruce: But they usually only lasted two or three sessions before they snap. Um, and then, yeah, at about age 11 or so, my best mate, his family had a house up at Avoca, and, uh, so we'd go up there for holidays, and we'd look over the back, down the back, and you could see the [00:11:00]McCoy factory.

[00:11:01] Tyler: Oh,

[00:11:01] Bruce: And, um, so he, he managed to get an old McCoy 20. I mean, we always had single fins really for the first few years was just right on that cost was like 76. Um, and, um, and we learned to surf at a vodka and, but the guys out the back ripping were Shane Horan. Mark Sainsbury, you know, that whole crew and they had their lasers out

[00:11:30] Tyler: Ha

[00:11:30] Bruce: we were just like in awe just going, wow, look at these guys, bloody gods, you know, we're just struggling in the shores, you know, um, but, uh, yeah, so, so, you know, from there, then.

[00:11:45] Bruce: Um, uh, high school. We, we were one of the first schools in New South Wales to get surfing as a sport. A couple of our science teachers surfed. So, so I gave up rugby and, um, [00:12:00] and we did surfing for sport and, you know, just got the bargain, spend every weekend down the beach. And, uh, yeah, that was grew up in the D Y area, surfing Long Reef, D Y.

[00:12:14] Tyler: Did you then, like, did you always have like a, like a wanderlust to travel then? Was there, like, were you influenced by Mourning of the Earth and all of that sort of, kind of, travel that was going on in surfing around that time? Or were you just kind of, just everyday surfer and going on an odd surf trip?

[00:12:36] Bruce: Hmm. I've given this a little bit of thought and I think the seed may have been planted. Um, my father was the secretary of P& O Australia, the shipping company. So every year our family holiday, we used to do what we call the milk run. Which was like,

[00:12:56] Tyler: [00:13:00] Uh,

[00:13:03] Bruce: Zealand, back to Sydney, all Tonga.

[00:13:07] Bruce: We never went to Tahiti, but basically all the Pacific Islands, um, as, as you know, as a kid below 10. And then we started, then we went round the world when I was like seven.

[00:13:22] Tyler: Uh,

[00:13:26] Bruce: comfortable on boats. And, um, so, yeah, I've tried to spend as much of my adult life doing boat trips as I can afford.

[00:13:36] Tyler: So, so it must have been really painful when you had to watch, uh, In God's Hands and they're on this ship. I don't know if you remember that movie and saw it at all, but.

[00:13:48] Bruce: I've seen in God's hands,

[00:13:50] Tyler: And they're like on the ship and there's a half pipe on the ship and they're skating and you're like, this is not happening. This did not happen

[00:13:57] Bruce: Nah, but, uh,

[00:13:59] Tyler: What would [00:14:00] you do with your time then? God, as a kid, no phone, no iPad, no tablet. Just gotta

[00:14:07] Bruce: No,

[00:14:08] Tyler: perish the thought.

[00:14:09] Bruce: cruisers, be a kid or be just totally Gaga retired. Don't be in between, you know, as kids, we had the best time on the ship. You know, as three swimming pools, there's Uh, all sorts of games and activities. They look after, they used to look after the kids and, um, and then you arrive in some tropical paradise and you go on land for a day or two or, you know, or more and, um, and then continue on your way.

[00:14:37] Bruce: It's, um,

[00:14:38] Tyler: you

[00:14:42] Bruce: a formative part of my, uh, my upbringing that probably has resulted in me, you know, enjoying a bit of travel.

[00:14:51] Tyler: think those early experiences, and I'm curious then, like, your, with, with your parents and their influence, like, [00:15:00] do you feel you learned how to travel properly from them because of those experiences? And what I mean by that is, Uh, like on your site, on the Stormrider Guide, uh, site, even, like, there is this section where you talk about being good travelers, almost, and being respectful of the culture, and spend money with the local people, and, you know, all of these things that I think, um, Early surfers kind of had, you know, like surfers of the seventies and eighties, I think had that kind of more mindset than I think certain surfers today potentially, but I was curious, like, if that was like a learned thing from you, or is that learned from your surfing experience, how to be a more conscientious traveler?

[00:15:41] Bruce: Uh, I can't claim that, that, um, my formative traveling years had any, uh, positive effect on, on that. Um, you know, the cruise ship tourists, they're the worst, you know. Just show up, they'll pile off, off the ship, it's [00:16:00] great, they spend some money, you know, the locals rip off the old, the old girls and, you know, and everyone's kind of accepting, we're not really here to learn about your culture, we're here just to take, you know, take a few photos and get, get a few souvenirs and get back to the safety of, you know, the ultimate gated community, you know, it's like, it's, uh, So, so that, that, that didn't help.

[00:16:25] Bruce: But then the other side of my, my traveling, uh, as a, um, as a child and with my, with my brothers and my dad, um, was really hardcore Aussie Bush camping. And that, that's what he was, he was into. And, you know, the more frugal and meager, the better sort of thing, you know, character forming, which, you know, was then a lot of did a lot of Indo travel in the eighties.

[00:16:53] Bruce: And yeah, it was, uh, you know, there was certainly no, no, uh, you know, four [00:17:00] star, five star resort, uh, stuff going on. And, um, so I'm, I'm kind of happy in both worlds and, uh, but yeah, I think what I have learned from, from, you know, doing this job is how, how culpable surfers are. for so, for the destruction of so many beautiful places.

[00:17:24] Bruce: I mean, you know, I, my first trip to Bali was 77, I think. And, and it was just, you know, it was proper paradise. And then I went recently and yeah, it

[00:17:37] Tyler: it's a bit depressing. I imagine like,

[00:17:40] Bruce: It was, it was pretty, it was pretty, pretty hard. So, you know, but, but that's, that's, that's the world we live in. There's always going to be progress. It's just how we manage that progress. And so far there's been little or no management until recent, you know, recently P and the pennies finally dropped that, hang on, [00:18:00] we can't keep doing it this way.

[00:18:01] Tyler: yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause like, I'm sure you've seen like my recent podcast, we had, um, Rebecca Cooley on who did the point of change, uh, documentary on Neos and like,

[00:18:14] Bruce: Yeah, I met her at the London Film Festival and we had a very interesting discussion.

[00:18:23] Tyler: Oh, Oh, you want to expand on that? What did

[00:18:26] Bruce: Uh, well, no, just more about, I mean, uh, her film was, was brilliant because I'd focused on how, you know, surf tourism had affected the lives of the people that lived there. But, um, uh, what, um, what I. was drawing parallels.

[00:18:47] Bruce: I don't know. Um, we, we do a book surf stories, Indonesia, right? So, um, Kevin Lovett did a piece in there on, you know, well, it was basically the, [00:19:00] um, you know, the custodians of the point, um, uh, story, the journal story,

[00:19:06] Tyler: circa 99.

[00:19:07] Bruce: Yeah, but he also did a piece on Saar Gangalan, who was a Niassian warrior during the Dutch invasion and the parallels.

[00:19:18] Bruce: They're just insane. It's like, and it's such a brilliant story. And, and again, this is something you can now get on the new website. You know, we've got, we've got space to put all this, this new kind of content that we, you know, that we couldn't always fit into Stormrider guides, you know? So, um, but anyway, sorry to interrupt you, but just remind them, reminded me of that conversation.

[00:19:43] Tyler: Well, I think like, so I guess the, the, the, the question is like, so the Stormrider guidebook. And I'm curious, like, what was the initial reaction to the book when it came out? Because I imagine a lot of [00:20:00] surfers would have been upset seeing that at first, right? Like, because it's like, oh, they're exposing our spots and whatever kind of stuff they want to rant against.

[00:20:09] Tyler: And I'm curious, like, what was the initial reaction and how How were you able to mitigate some of those reactions and calm some of those fears with it?

[00:20:20] Bruce: Um, Okay. So first of all, So little negative feedback from locals. So little. and the first, the first volume of Europe, um, it's funny because a break came up. We, we, uh, we had included in South Wales, nothing, nothing special, just another break. And, you know, there's, there's a bit of reef, there's a bit of sand it's, uh, you know, it has its day. [00:21:00] Um, and a few locals, you know, got in touch about that one. There's another, another way further north and, and we went, okay. You know, I mean, we'll take them out and we took them out. And, and since then there has been. Virtually no negative response to any breaks. It's more the opposite. It's more the, Hey, you missed this one and this one and this one.

[00:21:25] Bruce: And it's like, guys, the idea of a storm rider guide, as you said in the intro, the

[00:21:31] Tyler: Um,

[00:21:58] Bruce: to this day. [00:22:00] Um, so yeah, so that's, um, that's where we've always come from, uh, almost to the point. Where I've been in Ireland, yeah, some of the more, more sensitive reef areas and, and I've heard the locals talking to visiting surfers, if it's not in Storm Rider, you don't surf there, okay, it's like,

[00:22:27] Tyler: you got someone with you.

[00:22:28] Bruce: yeah, because they were the ones who put the information together,

[00:22:33] Tyler: That's wild.

[00:22:34] Bruce: Yeah, so that's how we've mitigated. It's not what we think. And although we've traveled to many places and, and I've got to call out my, um, uh, my French colleague, Anthony Colas, who is almost certainly the most well traveled surfer on the planet. I think he's surfed 58 countries. You know, he's, he's surfed places in the black sea [00:23:00] and, and, you know, Russian or all the, and, and he's the world's number one surfboard aficionado. He discovered that

[00:23:10] Tyler: Oh,

[00:23:11] Bruce: well, he's written books on, uh, but they're in French. I was thinking of translating, but it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a very niche, um, market. You know, he discovered the Bono. Which, you know, which is one of the most seminal surfing experiences you could ever have. And, uh, I can't recommend highly enough just doing it once.

[00:23:35] Bruce: You

[00:23:35] Tyler: You did it! You did the, the

[00:23:37] Bruce: Ah, yeah, well, Antony discovered it. So we were there just after the Rip Curl Search film with Karen. Oh,

[00:23:45] Tyler: just set it for our, our listeners? Just explain what it is exactly, uh, the Bono and, and where it is a little bit? Like, well, roundabout way, just so that they

[00:23:55] Bruce: yeah, no, I mean, of course, it's in the Stormrider guy. And suddenly we've [00:24:00] struggled because Anthony has been all over the world surfing these river waves and discovering new ones. He's been in one recently in Papua, New Guinea, that is so croc, croc infested. And you know, um, the, the barn in, in Delhi, um, which is, um, is called the barn after an auto barn because it breaks at about, I think it's 27 miles an hour, much faster than other waves.

[00:24:28] Bruce: Um, uh, might be kilometers anyway, it's stuff like this, but, um, just before I move on to the Bono, yeah, Anthony is who we've worked with since about the year, well, mid 90s probably, because he helped a lot with France, um, he's from Biarritz, and, um, and then we worked together on the World Guides. 2, 2 40 different zones around the world.[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Bruce: And, uh, there's not many he hasn't been to. So, you know, the, the guy is phenomenal and, um, uh, so anyway, yeah, he, he discovered the burner. And again, that story is. In the surf stories, Indonesia and on the side. Um, and that's a crazy story like, you know, boat wrecks and getting lashed in storms and not going to make it and all that sort of stuff.

[00:25:27] Bruce: But, um, we went there after they did the rip curl

[00:25:32] Tyler: Yep. Wow.

[00:25:40] Bruce: of Sumatra. Just near below Singapore. Um, and it requires a big estuary to funnel in water with tidal change into a narrower river. And you surf, uh, waves, I mean, overhead.

[00:25:58] Bruce: overhead in [00:26:00] lots of places. Uh, for a lot of it, it's, you know, it's kind of shoulder high and the first wave I had there was 48 minutes long. so, and then I'll surf for five days all the way through over 40 minutes. So, you know, it's, um,

[00:26:17] Tyler: you do a lot of stretching

[00:26:18] Bruce: do, you do a lot of lying down.

[00:26:22] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:26:23] Bruce: After five or ten minutes of doing as many re entries and cutbacks as your legs will take, you have to lie down.

[00:26:31] Bruce: And, um, uh, so, but the Bono is an incredible wave, and, um, if you haven't seen it, look up the Rip Curl film, Seven Ghosts, I believe it's called.

[00:26:42] Tyler: Yes.

[00:26:43] Bruce: And funnily enough, I ran into Tom Curran in the houses of parliament in, uh, you know, in London. Yeah, we were at an all party committee, a cross party committee about sewage pollution.

[00:26:58] Bruce: I was with some of the [00:27:00] SAS guys, Surfers Against Sewage, but all sorts of guys showed up. Greg Long showed up. And then there was all the, the Save the Waves guys who we're, we've also been working with. They're great guys. Um, and, um, and Tom we're in this, you know, fussy chamber somewhere and there's a few, you know, mps and can and drinks and, and, uh, and I thought, oh God, Tom gets hassled by everyone, you know, but I, I, ID up to him and went, oh, good day.

[00:27:30] Bruce: Tom, I, I just wanted to ask you one thing. What did you think of surfing? The Bono and his face just lit up, like, you know, and he's pretty deadpan.

[00:27:39] Tyler: Yeah,

[00:27:40] Bruce: it was like, he wasn't expecting that because, and this was a while ago when it wasn't, you know, so, so well exposed. But, um, if someone like him can get excited about this way.

[00:27:51] Bruce: For us normal guys, it's, it's an incredible experience. So

[00:27:54] Tyler: It's, it's also like, seems really dangerous. Like it's not something you could just [00:28:00] do on your own. You need to have like proper jet ski boats safety. It seems like.

[00:28:06] Bruce: When we did it, we only had Zodiacs and funnily enough, when they shot the Rip Curl film, I don't know if you've heard the backstory, they, they had

[00:28:16] Tyler: is the great forum for it. Go on.

[00:28:20] Bruce: Had zodiacs and they were already, I mean, the beauty of the Bono is, it's like going to a wave pool. You know exactly what time , the way it's coming. And they went down to, to jump in the zodiacs and someone had, um, stabbed them the night before and, and destroyed the Zodiac. So it turned out that it was the logging company who had some logging rights.

[00:28:46] Bruce: I mean, we're talking pristine syman

[00:28:49] Tyler: Yeah. Clear cut.

[00:28:53] Bruce: palm oil, no palm oil. And then, uh, over on the other side, there's, [00:29:00]there's a big logging point where they loaded up and ship it out, you know? Um, so, you know, there's vested interests and a lot of power going on there. So this logging company thought they were green piece. Uh, you know, activist. I really did. And so they, so they destroyed the boat and then somehow Anthony managed to work with Eddie, who's the guy who runs the whole Bono operations. They, they, um, they got through to the government who got through to the logging company and they came through. They were like, Oh, okay, we made a bit of a mistake here and they let them use their helicopter.

[00:29:39] Bruce: You know, all those shots.

[00:29:41] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:42] Bruce: all helicopter. So it kind of turned out, but when you're in a zodiac in a river boar, you would not believe the maelstrom that happens behind the waves. It's like, uh, I'd describe it as being in a mogul feel, you know, when you're skiing and you're in a mogul feel and then you start getting [00:30:00] out more and more out of control, you come off one bump into another.

[00:30:03] Bruce: And you end up like vertical in the Zodiac, like holding on for dear life, looking backwards, going, which way are we going to go? You know, it's, it's so weird. And, and the amount of water that moves is like nothing you'll find in the ocean. It's, it's, it's super sketch and scary, but I've, uh, I haven't done it for, yeah, I don't know, 12 years and now they've got jet skis and it looks way safer.

[00:30:30] Bruce: And

[00:30:31] Tyler: Still got crocodiles though.

[00:30:34] Bruce: yeah, the week we were there, two kids, one of them got, they got bumped out of the, the, um, The, the canoe and one of them got eaten, one, one made at home. There, there's a really interesting fact that Anthony is very clear on because, um, he serves the one in Malaysia, in, on Borneo, um, the Benak. And there's a, a shrine for all the, all the people who've [00:31:00] been killed by crocs, and he reckons 97 percent are between the ages of 10 and 15.

[00:31:07] Bruce: The crocs know. They don't go for old salty dogs like us. Nah, too big, you know, we'll, we'll just,

[00:31:15] Tyler: meat, meat's not as good either. You know, it doesn't taste as fresh.

[00:31:19] Bruce: I mean, you know, who eats mutton when you can have lamb?

[00:31:22] Tyler: Yeah. You want veal, man.

[00:31:24] Bruce: That's what they're, that's what they're thinking. So yeah, that is an issue, um, along with the, um, I think there was an eight meter Python found in the village, um, with, uh, uh, human remains inside.

[00:31:40] Bruce: I, but do you know what,

[00:31:48] Tyler: yeah.

[00:31:49] Bruce: as a, as a surf trip, that village was the most unreal breath of fresh air because suddenly nobody had ever visited it before [00:32:00] it's, you know, it floods twice a day on the, on the full moon and the new moon, all the houses are up on stilts. The kids swim around in the streets, uh, you know, it's cut off.

[00:32:10] Bruce: It's really, really. You know, kind of isolated and now it's become this, this bastion of surf, uh, culture, um, where they're all surfing. Like when we were there, we were surfing with one girl called Vicky and she was brilliant. And then more guys came out on homemade boards. They'd, they'd, they'd, you know, shape their own boards from the forest.

[00:32:34] Bruce: And then, you know, we'd start giving them boards. And now. You look at, you look at the, the Facebook for, for Eddie Bono and, um, and he's, there's 20 to 30 locals surfing every, every full moon and new moon. And then they're loving it just off the village.

[00:32:53] Tyler: and it seems like there's plenty to go around too. It's not like, it's gonna be like overly crowded, [00:33:00] no?

[00:33:00] Bruce: Yeah, I mean, it's nice when you've got the wave to yourself, but, uh, you know, it goes through series, it closes out, and then you can go from the left and lie down and head all the way across the whitewash to the right, and, you know, so you move around a bit, and, and there's also waves behind, which are going to be empty, because they're not as powerful, but foiling is coming in big time, and they're perfect, all those waves behind are perfect for foiling,

[00:33:28] Tyler: Oh my gosh, that's like, you wanna get in shape? Go foil that for like, a few weeks. You know, like, how many calories are you burning on that shit? That's

[00:33:39] Bruce: it. Yeah. Anyway, that's my, yeah, that's my rave on, uh, on bore waves, which, uh, which I can recommend highly.

[00:33:49] Tyler: So, let's, I wanna then kinda circle back then, like, How did you come about Like the Stormrider guide with [00:34:00] with Ollie and everyone then you just like walked into the surf shop in London We're like, hey or what? How did that come about?

[00:34:07] Bruce: Um, yeah, absolutely. They, um, they also had a, uh, another partner, um, dread who, um, who's, who's still around in, in these parts. Um, and he, he started the low pressure clothing, um, range. He's now the head designer at Adidas, I believe.

[00:34:32] Tyler: What?

[00:34:33] Bruce: So yeah, Dredd's a legend. He's done ha ha ha, haute couture. He's done all the catwalk stuff.

[00:34:39] Bruce: He had a, you know, special shoe brand. He's done it all, but my pressure was, he's, he's some, you know, formulative years. And, uh, so he was a good marketeer and they had a competition on the radio. This is how I, I got in, um, uh, I was driving, driving around London and I, and on the radio, I [00:35:00] heard, um, Oh, new surf shops opened.

[00:35:03] Bruce: Um, now, um, and Tim was being interviewed and he said, uh, okay, we're going to have a competition or something like you can win something or other. Um, what would you say? Uh, if you're down in, in Hossagaw and you drop in on a wave and look behind you and you, you've burned, um, uh, you've burned a local surfer and what are you, what are you going to say to them?

[00:35:32] Bruce: And uh, so that was, uh, that was my introduction to, um, to, to the guys. And I just, I drove straight there and walked in and went, okay. Surf shop in London. And, uh, yeah,

[00:35:45] Tyler: and you just introduced yourself and you're like, Hey, I, uh, I just happened to surf and I know a little bit I can help you guys or did

[00:35:52] Bruce: yeah, it was, it was a bit like that. It was very nascent and it just opened and, um, uh, and the, but the [00:36:00] book had just come out and the first, um, Europe guy. And, uh, and so we, we were quite diverse in those days. There was the, the merchandising, the clothing, there was the publishing, there was the retail. And then I started up a travel, um, Basically, so, um, we worked with surf camps in the Canaries in, um, in, in Portugal, the surf experience down in the Algarve, and also, um, worked with some French guys.

[00:36:35] Bruce: Who basically had a small house in Tamrat down in, in Morocco. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so that was what we started, uh, doing was basically, um, booking surf trips and building up a massive surf club in London. We had, uh, 600 members. I think there's, there's that, that many surfers stuck in [00:37:00] London. So, um, and we,

[00:37:03] Tyler: brother is one of them.

[00:37:04] Bruce: Your brother, exactly.

[00:37:05] Bruce: Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, so yeah, so it was, you know, we all had this vision of the lifestyle, but what were the parts that we needed to bring together to, you know, effectively help that lifestyle? And, um, and so they all, they all worked quite, quite well together aside from, you know, retail is really just an ugly business, you know,

[00:37:32] Tyler: retail is not fun. I grew up in it.

[00:37:35] Bruce: yeah, you know, you know all about it.

[00:37:38] Bruce: And, um, you know, we had 15 years in, you know, In central ish London, Notting Hill, really expensive area now for, uh, I mean, the shop rent went up something like 370 percent over those 15 years. And, uh, and while at first we were the only place in, in London where you could buy a Quicksilver t [00:38:00] shirt, I remember the, the crew from Quicksilver in France, uh, when they saw how many we were selling.

[00:38:06] Bruce: They quickly came over and they opened a store in Covent Garden. And so, that was the end of that gravy trend. But, um, but they went bust before we did.

[00:38:16] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Bruce: they were, they were just there to make money on fashion. Where we were there for the surfers. We often lost money. Yeah, we lost money selling a surfboard.

[00:38:26] Bruce: Throw in a leg rope and a bar of wax. It's like, there was no money in equipment at all, but, um, yeah, it was still just the right thing to do and we had, you know, we, we had a whale of a time, needless to say.

[00:38:41] Tyler: It's something, uh, unique about urban surfers or surfers who are in urban areas like London or New York, I find where it's just, um, you know, there's not supposed to be surfers there and they are, and they're just, I find them to be so much more fascinating than [00:39:00] surfers on the beach sometimes. I'm curious if you found the culture of like the London surfer and how.

[00:39:06] Tyler: You compared it to your upbringing, but also then, like, the Cornish surfers or the surfers around the UK as well.

[00:39:14] Bruce: Um, yeah, I mean, uh, way different from, you know, Australia, as, as, you know, the Aussies can be a bit brusque, um, whereas, you know, all my experience of surfing around this rock, um, has only been positive, you know, never had any, any real negative, negative vibes. Um, yeah. You know, providing you know what you're doing and you, you know, uh, and, and, and you're not in the way then, um, you know, uh, coexisted nicely.

[00:39:50] Bruce: I think what you're talking about is that urban surfers, because we don't have it on tap, we are absolutely frothing when [00:40:00] it's time, when it's time to go and, and get away. Um, which is, uh, I know you came over and tried it last year, but, uh, the, the, the wave at Bristol has kind of changed my life. I mean, it's, it's only, sorry, only two hours, uh, half the drive to the coast and, um, and, you know, in all my years of surfing, I've never been guaranteed waves, except the river bores, that's a guarantee as well.

[00:40:29] Bruce: Um, but you never know how big, whereas at the wave you do. Um, yeah.

[00:40:35] Tyler: That wave is, is so fun. And like, uh, obviously there's one they're working on for London as well. Uh, I'd always thought you could surf the Thames off of a, like ferry wake or something. I always saw like, I once found like a little section and saw like such, like if it was just another foot bigger, I was like, Oh, this could almost be like Ben Gravey rideable [00:41:00] style.

[00:41:00] Bruce: Yeah, I, I hear what you're saying. Funnily enough, we spent a lot of hours around the campfire talking about this in the 90s. Um, and in fact, one of our friends, Ulrich, who was the distributor for Billabong in Germany, he, he was one of the earliest getting a syndicate together to build a wave pool. And, oh God, he had such a hard time.

[00:41:26] Bruce: I mean, it's, it's a really hard thing to do, but imagine, you know, 25 years ago, it was like, you're crazy. But what me, what me and Tim came up with is. I've always thought the problem with wave pools, a lot of it is the water. Um, and so, wouldn't it be better to create waves down the coast in Cornwall, where there's already the, the bathymetry, and all you need is the swell.

[00:41:56] Bruce: And so we came up with this idea that we get an old cargo [00:42:00] ship with a big Um, crane on it and then you get a big ball. It's kind of like the reverse of surf legs. Uh, but, but that you either drop it off the crane or

[00:42:11] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:42:12] Bruce: crane goes down and just goes, boom, and just sends out, sends out the swell. But then we said.

[00:42:19] Bruce: How do we get people to pay? Like, there's no fence, there's no gate, it's like, you know, running up and down the beach saying, the waves are going to be good in 10 minutes, give me some money, you know, it's not, it's not going to work. So, um, that was, that was one of our crackpot ideas, but we never thought that we would, you know, that we would see it like it has developed in recent, you know, decades.

[00:42:46] Tyler: it's crazy. And it's, it's super interesting on your website. Um, you have the wave on there, but I did notice that, uh, Kelly Slater's wave pool is not up on there yet.

[00:42:58] Bruce: Uh, mate, [00:43:00] uh, there, no, there's so, so much work to do on the whole artificial wave thing. We've always, um, we've always discussed it in the books. But just in a, in a spread like, here's an example, this is what's possible. Um, but because it's, it's morphing so quickly and there's so many different technologies and, and, and let's not go into how paranoid the, the technology producers are.

[00:43:30] Bruce: I mean, you know, trying to get a tiny bit of info out of WaveGarden, it's like blood from a stone. It's like, oh my God. Um,

[00:43:40] Tyler: The NDAs are like a book, I bet. Yeah. The

[00:43:47] Bruce: and I've, uh, it's just an on my to do list that, you know, there's a whole bunch of new wave pools around the world that need, need adding. Um, but I'm almost thinking about, um, you know, this is, [00:44:00] this is where we can work with partners like, um, uh, wave pool mag, yeah. Yeah, with Brian and that lot and just go, you know, let's just, just get a solid, solid bid for each of them.

[00:44:13] Bruce: But what we've been doing in recent years to, to improve the Stormrider guide is not just the base. The data is now where we're adding all these layers of, of external resources. You know, YouTube videos that aren't just guys doing airs and stuff. It's, it's like, this is telling you something about surfing at X,

[00:44:36] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[00:44:37] Bruce: Um, because, you know, as much as, as everyone's enjoyed our books and the, the high quality photos. We've never had space to do the proper job. So, so basically we're at the starting line. We've got,

[00:44:54] Tyler: So, let's, let's start. Like, I wanted, I almost wanted to start with, like, about time, fucking [00:45:00] time for you guys to get this book online. It's been, how long of a process has this been to, to make the Stormrider Guide digital?

[00:45:09] Bruce: Uh, we started in 2019, yeah.

[00:45:14] Tyler: Why did it, why didn't, why were you guys hesitant to do it any earlier? Uh, you know, as everyone, we're, we're, like, you had these other precursor sites like WannaSurf, right? Like, who

[00:45:27] Bruce: Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:45:28] Tyler: things like that.

[00:45:29] Bruce: Yeah, yeah. But of course, want to serve, um, you know, it's, um, uh, it's user generated information, which is something that we've never,

[00:45:42] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:45:43] Bruce: we've never entertained. I'm not saying it's, it's wrong. I'm just saying. It is what it is. And so, um, we've always, uh, preferred to, you know, to stick with the, the local surfers we know from, from the areas, from the countries and, [00:46:00] and let them kind of dictate how their surf is, is portrayed.

[00:46:05] Bruce: Um, uh, because, you know what it's like, you, you leave it to the public and anything can happen.

[00:46:10] Tyler: Yeah. Well, let me, I guess then like, what is that process when you guys are aggregating information about all these spots? Like how, how do you guys go about like filling in information, uh, on these different surfing areas? Uh, I'm curious, like what that, what the initial process was like and how it's evolved.

[00:46:30] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:46:51] Bruce: so it has been so, um, that there hasn't been too much controversy [00:47:00]because these guys were, you know, the, the, the proper guys in, you know, in the industry.

[00:47:08] Bruce: Um, you know, you've got Morris Cole helping and Tom Curran helping us in, in Hossagaw. You've got, um, you know, you've got all the Pucas guys helping us for Basque Country. We got Nicariquas, Cementes, surfboards, Portuguese, uh, you know, we, we just met the, the crew and, and they have supported us ever since.

[00:47:32] Tyler: Well, who do you, who do you got in New York? Who's the New York guy that, that I should know about?

[00:47:37] Bruce: who's the New Yorker? Well, when I came through New York, I didn't, I didn't run into you. Um, and, um,

[00:47:45] Tyler: I was probably young, a young man, young, young, uh, Sprightly Brock at the time. Pipedreams!

[00:47:52] Bruce: Um, so, um, I'm trying to remember, and it, uh, [00:48:00] it evades me right now, but there was a couple of stores in New York. There was one down downstairs over. Was it

[00:48:09] Tyler: the Upper East Sea!

[00:48:10] Bruce: Yeah, so I sat down with those guys and I did a, you know, I went through some of the breaks, had already surfed out to, out to Turtles and back and, you know, and just, you know, went through it all.

[00:48:22] Bruce: A few other shots. I didn't go to your dad's shop, unfortunately. Um, I, Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know about it. I was, you know, back in those days, I had to pay a pager was my was was the best I could get to to communicating with people. Um, so, but yeah, it just worked like that for certain areas. Where, where we actually did research trips to, but otherwise, you know, it can be as, as simple as, uh, contacting the, the National Surfing Federation or, I mean, just really people [00:49:00] often come to us.

[00:49:01] Bruce: Which is, which is nice because I think, you know, we've got to understand that there's a, there's a bit of, um, there's a bit of quid pro quo, isn't there? Because all, I want to say this about the gnarliest locals, they, unless they're, they're never going to leave their town. That they, they really don't have a leg to stand on, um, as they go on their annual window trip and, you know, expect to get waves.

[00:49:31] Bruce: Um, but, um, uh, but that aside, I think because people have benefited from the information when they've gone on trips that, that they go, yeah, this is a good thing. And, and people also. Hopefully they realize what what the Stormrider has done is rather than concentrate people in one spot is it spreads them out across a whole region of spots and trying to get people in the right spot for [00:50:00] their abilities, which is now what the website is going to be so good at.

[00:50:05] Bruce: Yeah, is is never have we ever had any way of filtering. Our personal preferences against the world's surfing locations.

[00:50:17] Tyler: I could create a mix, mixed list, like almost like a mixtape of waves, and then I could be like, Oh, hon, like, go to my wife be like, Oh, yeah, this is my playlist of surf waves. If you ever want to take me on a birthday surf trip. Here we go. Hmm.

[00:50:34] Bruce: line is, is discover your perfect break, not mine, yours. Um, because if you put into the filter, I, you know, Um, uh, I want, uh, beginner friendly waves or I want, um, where we've still got a lot to add to the filters like eventually we're going to have, yeah, I want six foot, no bigger than six foot over sand.

[00:50:59] Bruce: I want [00:51:00] lefts and I want to wear board shorts. And that will spit out all the places in the world where you're likely to get that for a given time period. Um, and then along with travel features like, do I want to go to sub Saharan Africa and feel very unsafe? And I'm okay with that. Or do I want five star medical treatment?

[00:51:22] Bruce: So I'm only going to surf in Europe and stuff like that. So

[00:51:26] Tyler: go on, sorry,

[00:51:28] Bruce: just going to say, so, so, you know, these filters are a powerful new tool that we've always had the data for, but no way of, of, of doing it, uh, in a, in a paper form.

[00:51:42] Tyler: is the site headless? Is the, uh, what we call headless, I guess, the technical term. So it's like real easy to search all this sort of stuff. The only reason I asked this is because I worked with your boy, Mark OJ, who helped design the site. So it's a, it was a constant discussion we [00:52:00]had.

[00:52:00] Bruce: I just got off a chat with Mark before I was speaking to you. Yeah, no, he's a, he's a bona fide web genius, isn't he? Um, so, um, and he often cuts through, you know, the crap. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't quite understand headless unless chicken is involved. Um, and. But I do know that on stormrider. surf, you can search directly, just put in a name, just put in, you know, pipeline or, you know, whatever it is.

[00:52:40] Bruce: You know, Montauk and, and get those, uh, those results from regionally break wise. Um, if it's country, there'll be country there as well. Um, uh, but you can also use our world map and you can just zoom in on pretty much all [00:53:00] 5, 000 surf breaks. Um, but what we ask is, um, you know, uh, I don't know if you can see this, but this.

[00:53:08] Tyler: It's a

[00:53:09] Bruce: This is like, this is

[00:53:12] Tyler: it's a hefty stack.

[00:53:14] Bruce: and that will cost you, you know, close to 300 pounds, so, you know, maybe 370. Um, and we've got all that plus a hell of a lot more, um, in this website, and so we're just asking for a small subscription to get all the real drilled down info. You can still use it for free, you can plan a trip.

[00:53:37] Bruce: And you can filter out certain things, but to get the real power, you're going to have to subscribe to what we call a storm rider passport. And, and that is, um, that is going to give you all the powerful tools to basically discover your perfect break. That's what it's about.

[00:53:57] Tyler: Do you see in the [00:54:00] future, like, uh, being able to book travel through the site or have links to all of that sort of stuff? Um, Hmm.

[00:54:15] Bruce: Um, but already we're, we're being hassled by, you know, surf camps in Mexico and, you know, in the Canaries are just all over, you know, so, um, and, and we were, uh, I'll admit we were set up to have a accommodation layer. Um, but because the process has taken such a long time, I mean, when we started, we had magic seaweed because, uh, they, not many people know this, but magic seaweed, Ben, when he started the business came to us and we supplied him with our database of spots.

[00:54:51] Bruce: So he could build out magic seaweed, you know, we're, we're old friends and we've been on boat trips together. And, you know, that, that was a, uh, a [00:55:00] nice relationship, which. Um, when Surfline came along that ended and so, uh, so now we, but we do have the windy forecast for all our surf breaks and we, and we are hoping that we might in fact get an, get another forecast side by side so you can do comparisons.

[00:55:21] Bruce: Um, for every break, because as we all know, the forecasts are not always reliable. So the more the more choice you've got, the more enhanced your picture will be.

[00:55:34] Tyler: There's um, isn't there like, there's like a, imagine like you must be, you know, yeah, you're getting all the surf, uh, camps and all that, but also like there are, aren't there like certain websites I've seen recently where they connect you with like a local surfer who gives you, who tours you around the area, things of that nature, I think could be an interesting feature to add where, you know, where you don't even have to do anything.

[00:55:56] Tyler: You just put a link or whatever to them instead. I don't

[00:55:59] Bruce: [00:56:00] You've been, you've been watching too much Wazzle.

[00:56:02] Tyler: Yeah, probably. Way

[00:56:05] Bruce: Yeah, you see

[00:56:07] Tyler: they've embedded in my

[00:56:08] Bruce: doing that

[00:56:08] Tyler: The cap, the capitalist in me is just fucking, I gotta get rid of it. I need to be more socialist, damn it.

[00:56:14] Bruce: but no, the, the, the idea of a bespoke guided tour for Uh, you know, for, for the kind of, uh, you know, people where budgetary restraint is not really an issue, that's great if they can do it fine. Um, for us, we, um, we're, we're definitely going to do something, but unfortunately the, the operator doesn't really exist.

[00:56:42] Bruce: So therefore do we, you know, become an aggregator for everyone and, uh, people have tried magic seaweed. Try. They had a huge, uh, they had a huge accommodation database, um, where we're happy to have it because it helps [00:57:00] you to plan your trip. So we're happy to have that. It's not really, we don't think it's something that should be overly monetized in any way.

[00:57:11] Bruce: If there's any deal, we'd like to pass that on to our passport holders who are happy to support us. To continue doing this work of building, uh, you know, uh, an information database that will, will stay the test of time and help people, you know, well into the future to, to continue to serve. So

[00:57:33] Tyler: I, um, I wanted to also just talk about like your, uh, commitment to the environment as well, because it seems like, um, you know, storm rider guide has. I've been very much involved in like in 2003, Surfers Against Sewage used your book to help show politicians in the UK that the waters around Europe were used and enjoyed like year round.

[00:57:58] Tyler: It wasn't just for a few weeks [00:58:00] in the summer and I'm curious like how that's evolved over time, your commitment to the environment and that sort of messaging.

[00:58:08] Bruce: Yeah, the environment. Um, so that was, uh, actually the EU government that was, uh, presented to the EU. Um, and we, you know, we had built up some, some data, mainly, um, the guys at SAS had, uh, had collated some of that, but funnily enough. Right back in the beginning, when, uh, when Ollie and, um, and Tim were just, you know, starting the research, um, we, we just met Chris Hines from SAS, and they hadn't started yet, and Ollie's mum spent an inordinate amount of money on a test kit that they use for, um, they use [00:59:00] in relief works in Africa for testing water and stuff.

[00:59:04] Bruce: It was like 1, 500 bucks, which at the time was a fortune. And, and so we, we started testing like down at Newquay and they were flying a blue flag and saying all this stuff. And we were testing going, hang on guys, that's not, that's not what's happening here. You know, because the water companies were doing all this illegal stuff, which we now know about has become common knowledge of opening combined sewage overflows when nobody's watching.

[00:59:32] Bruce: No one was monitoring. They could do whatever they want. Um, and, um, uh, and just really how bad the water quality was. So, uh, once we presented that to, to the Newquay District Council, Ooh, they just shut that down quick smart. Um, so that never saw the light of day and that kind of was one, you know, just one of the the moments that spurred Chris to [01:00:00] really, you know, go hard on Surfers Against Sewage.

[01:00:02] Bruce: And God, he's done an incredible job. So yeah, we, we tried, we tried to keep, um, our environment was, uh, comprised of, um, um, the, the environment would be pollution. Um, erosion and

[01:00:21] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[01:00:22] Bruce: so those were the four things that we tried to collect pretty much for all of North America and Europe. Um, we had to drop it for the world format because the world format was had to be, uh,

[01:00:38] Tyler: It's a lot there. I

[01:00:42] Bruce: all the world, volume one, two and three, the third volume.

[01:00:47] Bruce: Uh, sorry, the second volume, uh, had all the information in the, um, in the introduction chapters. And so, so we have a, we have a large database [01:01:00] of historical, um, facts. And when I, when I came down, when I went, did the whole East coast, I went to virtually every, uh, surf rider chapter. You know, I met the crew.

[01:01:10] Bruce: We've got, you know, background with all that. And I have this vision in the future of where, where we aggregate a whole bunch of this stuff. We're working with Save the Waves. There's, there's all these disparate little, little battlers out there, you know, doing their best in their little home patch, like little terriers and, and be great to turn us into a pack of Dovermen, you know.

[01:01:34] Bruce: That would, uh, that would be really nice.

[01:01:37] Tyler: If you could, I mean, if that, that is, if you could connect a lot of those groups and, and find a way to share best practices and data information, like, holy crap, that could be game changing for, for at least like the surf environmental organizations out there and everyone looking to, uh, protect their beaches from all of [01:02:00] these factors, from like, You know here in New York, right?

[01:02:03] Tyler: Like we get blackballed in the summer for most of our beaches And we got to pay to get on the beach and all of that information Like be great to see how other people have dealt with issues like that in other parts of the world and be able to apply What they did here or what we do elsewhere

[01:02:20] Bruce: Mate, from my experience, you're the only losers in the world who have to pay to go surfing

[01:02:27] Tyler: I know

[01:02:28] Bruce: It's like, when I, when I first experienced that on the East Coast, I'm going. What are you joking? Is this for real? Like it's so insane. It's so must be against everything, you know, in the constitution and in, in federal law about the high tide mark, all that stuff, you know, it's, it's just, you know, a bit of, a bit of, um, uh, what do they call it?

[01:02:57] Bruce: Opportunism. [01:03:00] Um, so yeah, I don't know how you guys get out of that, but those stories from last summer. That kid who got beaten up. I

[01:03:06] Tyler: oh, in New Jersey. It's crazy.

[01:03:08] Bruce: yeah,

[01:03:08] Tyler: He didn't have his beach pass, so he gets fuckin beat up, like, it's so fucked, it's crazy, and, um, You know, it's funny, like, Rockaway, what I love about Rockaway Beach here in Queens, at least, is it's free. It's a city beach, it's a public beach, there's no charging to get on, and it's the most diverse beach you'll ever see, potentially.

[01:03:28] Tyler: Like, it's just people from so many backgrounds. Hanging out, bonding together. It's wonderful. But then you go to Long Beach, you almost got to pay like 20 bucks to get on the beach and that's per person. So if you're bringing a family, forget about it. Like, and I've been to meetings where I've heard people say, I want to charge on the beach to keep the riffraff off the beach, which is code for.

[01:03:52] Tyler: Keeping minorities and people who don't look like them off the beach, which is also For New York like the [01:04:00] parkways That we have the roads that go to the beaches are called parkways and they were designed by Robert Moses So that no buses could go on them so that people who didn't have money to drive to the beach who didn't have cars couldn't Get there.

[01:04:12] Tyler: And so it was a form of racial segregation basically, which is all Whole crazy shit.

[01:04:18] Bruce: I was, I was terrified of the parkways because I was in a motorhome, you know, and just like, Oh, no, I can't I can't get railroaded under here.

[01:04:28] Tyler: Dude, they're so brutal.

[01:04:30] Bruce: But, you know, Fire Island, what about the Hamptons? The way they, they ethnically cleansed the Hamptons was, was by, there is no way you can ever stop in your car unless you own a property there.

[01:04:42] Tyler: you can't park

[01:04:44] Bruce: get on the beach. You can't park, you can't park, you can't stop, you can't, you know, you.

[01:04:48] Tyler: a permit. It's so insane. It is,

[01:04:51] Bruce: it's,

[01:04:52] Tyler: it's

[01:04:52] Bruce: but, but what one saviour is that, you know, generally in New York, you're, you're surfing [01:05:00] in winter and, um, and everything kind of is, is less policed in winter.

[01:05:06] Tyler: once you get past, uh, you know, Labor Day, you're good, you know, and then you can just go pretty much anywhere. But it's, it is funny. And it's super interesting that you, you say like, we're like the worst of you've seen anywhere in the world. This is probably like the worst. I want to, I want to ask then like, um, What is, what are your thoughts on, like, privatization of certain surf breaks?

[01:05:34] Tyler: Like they did in Tavarua and other places around the world, like, Yeah, you know, things of that nature, like,

[01:05:43] Bruce: come on mate. Money, money talks. You know, we shouldn't be surprised.

[01:05:49] Tyler: I didn't know if you felt like it's a way of them protecting the place and giving back to the people, like, I don't know what those models

[01:05:56] Bruce: well, if you, if you listen to Claude Graves, he, you know. [01:06:00] generally justified it in how much he was giving to the local workers and building schools for the village and all that. But, but what happened to Tavaroa would also happen in Somba is that, that then that one particular village Uh, just rises above all the others and then jealousy comes in and then it's just like, well, this is worse like they're fighting amongst themselves over this money and it's all about money, which they didn't need before the surfers came along.

[01:06:36] Bruce: They were doing fine, you know, so yeah, it's a, it's a really thorny subject and, and, um, I wouldn't, uh, you know, uh, I wouldn't say I would.

[01:06:48] Tyler: too much.

[01:06:49] Bruce: Yeah, I just, I just wouldn't, wouldn't say there seems to be any obvious, um, you know, obvious answer other than they have been extremely, [01:07:00] uh, rare. There's not been many cases of them.

[01:07:03] Bruce: And when the Fiji government changed the laws in that, you know, they, they basically some clever dick lawyer used the fishing rights. To transfer to surfing and, you know, I mean, you know, the guys monetize that they did well out of it, you know, that's, that's in the past now, but, uh, providing, you know, the, the age old way of doing it is your East coast way, just prevent access.

[01:07:32] Bruce: And once the access is gone, then you're in real trouble, you know.

[01:07:36] Tyler: True.

[01:07:37] Bruce: And so that goes on all the time still. So, you know, and also I think if they're doing it in the middle of nowhere, those things kind of look after themselves. Um, so, yeah.

[01:07:51] Tyler: How, how do you feel then of like how surfers have become as travelers over the years? How that's evolved from like when you were [01:08:00] young and traveling to now, like what do you, do you think surfers have evolved in a more negative, unhealthy way when they travel or more positive? Or do you think it's just such a huge cross section is so many people surf and you can't put it on to one box, but I don't know.

[01:08:17] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:08:17] Bruce: Yeah. I think that's really, um, geopolitical that, um, because I have so many positive, um, positive experiences, uh, around Europe and in Indonesia and, you know, of places like the Maldives and stuff where It's not an issue, but then I, what I hear about SoCal at the moment and just the sheer weight of numbers, the, you know, the, the people just kind of lose their shit, you know, but that none [01:09:00] of us deserve more than the next person.

[01:09:03] Bruce: We're all, we should all be just equally stoked that we can even do it. You know, and, um, and the VAL's and the beginners have just as much right as we did 50 years ago, you know, so we were lucky we saw it in a different, different light, but we can't, you know, can't be holding on to, to bygones, you know, bloody hell, Trump, Trump's in the white house.

[01:09:27] Bruce: Come on, you know, you got to change your way of thinking.

[01:09:31] Tyler: seriously, seriously, I've had to do a lot.

[01:09:35] Bruce: you know, um, I think. In a lot of ways, surfers are way more tolerant these days,

[01:09:43] Tyler: Yeah,

[01:09:44] Bruce: um, because they're better educated and we as a society have, have, have, you know, got rid of some of the things that were acceptable, um, in the past, um, uh, you know, particularly along racist and [01:10:00] sexist lines.

[01:10:01] Bruce: Um, but, um, but equally there can be pockets where it's just toxic and foul. Um, but fortunately from my memories and, uh, uh, and through surf media history, those, those places, uh, uh, the, the sheer weight of numbers, particularly in SoCal has blown out all those, you know, even Lunada Bay, uh, the weight of numbers, eventually they can't throw rocks at everyone, you know, it's like, and, uh, you know, but.

[01:10:36] Bruce: But that behavior, it's, it's extremely, um, you know, myopic and, and, uh, you know, like I say, I bet those guys have been to, you know, Hawaii or Costa Rica or anywhere else and expected to be allowed to serve. So come on.

[01:10:53] Tyler: It, you know, it's um, Yeah, it is, uh, I think [01:11:00] you can't fight the tide. You know, and that's what it is. You know, it's

[01:11:03] Bruce: And if the tide is, is humanity, then yeah, that's, uh, that's, that's it. Um, so yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm positive. I'm, I'm really positive. And do you know what? Um, I said, as I say, I surfed the wave a lot and the wave pool, I'm sure you experienced this. It is the most unreal friendly lineup you will ever sit in because everyone is equal.

[01:11:27] Bruce: We've all paid our money. The next wave's yours. The one after that's mine. And then so on and so forth. No one's, you know, going to get ahead unless they're full frothers and doing doubles and triples, you know, in, in each single set, which, which is fine as well. If a young bloke comes by, I'm going to go on, man.

[01:11:46] Bruce: Yeah. I don't, I don't

[01:11:48] Tyler: I wanted to stop it at like 10 waves and there are 12 in the set, you know, and I was like, I'm done. I'm tired. I'm out. It's like,

[01:11:58] Bruce: than 14.

[01:11:59] Tyler: but like [01:12:00] I, yeah, it was insane. Like I wanted to be done. I was so tired at the end of an hour session. I was like, I can't even go another session. It was so, oh, it was awesome.

[01:12:10] Bruce: a, it's a hell of a workout and all that. But what I'm talking about is just the. The vibe in the water. I mean, how, how much time have we spent in our lives sitting in lineups in silence? Because you know, the, the, there's this kind of like unspoken law. Well, if you kind of, if you talk to someone.

[01:12:31] Bruce: Either, you know, you, you get your head bitten off or, you know, occasionally you actually might strike up a decent conversation, but in the pool, that is all that happens is everyone's friendly and, and there's no competition, the competition's gone. So therefore the vibe just goes through the roof.

[01:12:51] Tyler: only competition is to get a seat in the sauna afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. [01:13:00] Bruce, I, I gotta wrap up here, but I, I wanted to know, like, first, like, what your, your hopes and goals are for Stormrider now online, and then here's your chance to give a shameless plug.

[01:13:13] Bruce: Yeah, I mean, um, maybe I shameless plug before and it's, it's something that I have to say that we are terrible at. Um, and, and also need to kind of also say, I mean, people come up to me and, and say, you know, really nice stuff, how the book has helped them have some of the best times of their lives. I've even had, had kids come up to me, I think it was that night we met over in East London and this kid rocked up because his dad had done Europe in the nineties, written in the margins of his storm right of Europe and given it to his son when he was 18.

[01:13:51] Bruce: And his son just, like, loves it.

[01:13:53] Tyler: Oh.

[01:13:55] Bruce: and, but, but they're kind of directing it at me, and it's not about me. It's never been [01:14:00] about me or Ollie or Dan. We're just facilitators. We put it together. We're good at that. But it's not what we think. We haven't put those words in the locals mouths. This is, this is the, the world surf community sharing.

[01:14:15] Bruce: And, and for me, I think that's the, the important thing to, to, to understand. Um, and, um, so, but I do, yeah, I do believe we're kind of just at the beginning. I mean, we've been doing paper for, for 34 years now, 34 years. And. I've got to hold my hand up. We're no, you know, we're no digital geniuses. So it's going to take us a while to get it, to get it to what we know it can be.

[01:14:47] Bruce: We've got this core information. It's, it's really solid. It's reliable. It's all been checked against each other. One thing, you know, when I go to the East coast, when you guys say. Eight [01:15:00] foot. I know what that means. And when I, and when I go to South Australia, their eight foot is slightly different, you know?

[01:15:09] Bruce: So, um, we, we, we tried to balance everything out so that it's, it's comparable and understandable. Um, and, uh, I really hope we're going to build a community space. I don't know if you noticed, but we, we've, um, we've got, uh, do, can you see? You can add. Any break or region to your personal surf map.

[01:15:30] Tyler: Ooh, I haven't explored that yet. I haven't explored that part yet. All right.

[01:15:36] Bruce: in, look in your account section and there's a personal surf map.

[01:15:42] Bruce: And

[01:15:42] Tyler: Oh, I see

[01:15:43] Bruce: you look at, uh, and then if, uh, when you're on a

[01:15:46] Tyler: Want to visit and have visited.

[01:15:48] Bruce: And it will say, yeah, have surfed it, wanna surf, whatever, you know, whatever, whether it's a break or a region. So you can add them and suddenly you've got a record. [01:16:00] of your surfing travels. Um, but what, uh, one thing as a, as an, as an old boy that I highly recommend, um, I don't know if you've ever seen the Stormrider Surf Journal, but this book, this is my favorite book.

[01:16:18] Bruce: It's the most valuable book, um, because I've taken the time when I'm on trips. to, to log my sessions, uh, even if it's in the shortest possible shorthand. And so we're going to add this to the site so you can do it even easily, more easily digitally. Okay. Because the actual writing part, although I do argue that in a hundred years time, my great grandkids, there's, there's a chance they'll see this.

[01:16:48] Bruce: the digital file, probably less of a chance, but nevertheless, we're going to have this area where you can do some journaling and, and you can bring [01:17:00] in all the factors, like, you know, if you're Putting your

[01:17:05] Tyler: Fitbit or Apple Watch. Yeah, you can put

[01:17:07] Bruce: Fitbit, your Apple Watch, if you're into your, your surf cam footage, that you can bring it in, into this area that is all joined up to the world's, you know, surf spots.

[01:17:21] Bruce: And, um, and, and then we would go as far as saying your personal surf map can be your avatar. And so if I know you've been to Morocco, And you say, yeah, it's okay, I can go, Hey, Tyler, did you go south into the desert in Morocco and, and, and the people can create an informed community where, you know, within, within the Stormrider site to, to, to do a bit, you know, of that, that connection with, with the, the surf, you know, community.

[01:17:58] Bruce: So,

[01:17:58] Tyler: love that. [01:18:00] I, I love that so much. That's such a great concept and really in this beautiful spirit of community, I think is awesome. And. You're going to turn

[01:18:10] Bruce: not, we're not there yet.

[01:18:12] Tyler: no, but you're getting there and, uh, you're all going to turn us into Dr. Mark Renikers, like logging every session really meticulously eventually.

[01:18:20] Bruce: Oh, Dr. Mark. Okay. Um, okay.

[01:18:25] Tyler: That's a good thing. He keeps journals, you know, like for 30 years of waves, but, um, so where can our listeners find the Stormrider guidebook and, and, uh, and the website and how can they log on and is there social, where can we go?

[01:18:41] Bruce: um, okay. I mean, you can still, you can still buy the books. And some people still just go,

[01:18:47] Tyler: It's a great gift.

[01:18:49] Bruce: want the book book. Uh, so, um, we will continue to, to keep certainly the world guide and, and Europe in, in print. Um, [01:19:00] I would say, and, um, otherwise the, uh, the whole. The whole shooting match is on stormrider. surf,

[01:19:09] Tyler: Mm hmm.

[01:19:10] Bruce: um, and that will, uh, pretty much explain all.

[01:19:16] Bruce: Um, uh, we have, uh, you know, we, we are going to build our Instagram, uh, and Facebook, uh, uh, bits and pieces, but it's, it's not our focus. Our focus is this piece of work will stand on its own. And, and I was going to say we're terrible marketeers. Which is true because for the last 33 years, people, the surf community has done it for us.

[01:19:44] Bruce: They, they have, you know, how many people did you meet on the road in Europe all those years ago who had a Stormrider on the dashboard and then you'd end up talking, Oh, did you go here and there

[01:19:57] Tyler: shared notes. It was amazing. And like, it [01:20:00] was a thing that, that, that, uh, helped, uh, bring us together actually too. It was this wonderful conversation piece.

[01:20:07] Bruce: Can continue the sharing and the amount of the amount of feral Aussies I met with with black and white photocopies. Oh, cheers. Cheers for the royalties, mate. But you know, you know what I'm saying. So, um, so. Yeah, just go to stormrider. cert. You can do a lot for free, but we're, we're not, we're not asking for, for a lot for an annual, um, subscription for a Stormrider passport and, and that money, we promise we're going to build this thing into something, you know, that's going to be really quite useful for decades to come.

[01:20:47] Tyler: Listeners, I highly recommend you check it out. Get a subscription. It's, I mean, I'm just going to spend hours on this thing. I spent hours the other day just like looking up spots and then I would cross [01:21:00] reference with Google Maps and then start to explore around the area. And it's just. It's beautifully done.

[01:21:05] Tyler: It's very well designed. It's very easy to use and I highly recommend you all get a subscription, listeners. Um, Bruce, such a pleasure to catch up with you. Really appreciate it, mate. Thank you so much. And, um,

[01:21:22] Bruce: Well, I, I really appreciate it. Um, and, uh, it's yeah, it's been a while since we, we spoke, but I have since, um, been, you know, listening to, uh,

[01:21:36] Tyler: in tabs.

[01:21:37] Bruce: your, your podcasting, which has just grown so magnificently. You deserve a lot of praise for, for what you've done and, um, uh, and bring back stump my bro.

[01:21:49] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:21:49] Bruce: And, um, you know, generally, uh, just props to you, mate.

[01:21:55] Tyler: Cheers, mate. Thank you so [01:22:00]