Surfing through the Liminal with Em Jospeh

Chris Coffin: okay, uh, welcome to Swell Season Surf Radio, the Art and Design series with Chris Laba and Chris Coffin. And, uh, we're happy to be back after a hiatus. And we have an excellent, excellent guest here. Um, em, Joseph, um, who is, uh, very, very dear to me, A really interesting, really interesting person to be on the show.

Um, she happens to be an, an ex-student of mine and which makes me very proud. It also shows my age and, uh, it's, uh, it's fantastic. It's been, it's been really nice, uh, reconnecting with em and learning all about, uh, what she's been up to on a professional level, um, in the fine art realm. Um, also some big, you know, life changes, life moves, um.

Uh, the last time we, we spoke, uh, she was telling me about a, uh, a movie that she was thinking about, [00:02:00] which we will leave for later, which I think is really fun. We'll talk about that. Um, but welcome, welcome m

Chris Labzda: Yeah,

Em Joseph: Thank you so much for having me. Uh, it's an honor to be on the podcast. I've been a huge fan. Some dear friends have been on the podcast as well as well, and I feel very honored to be here. And yeah, thanks for having me.

Chris Labzda: thanks.

Em Joseph: great to connect with you in this way, Chris. Um, and to kind of celebrate our enduring friendship from you being my high school photography teacher to Yeah.

You know, now a dear colleague and uh, um, and friend. I.

Chris Coffin: Yeah. It's, uh, for those of you who don't know, um, uh, em was, uh, you know, one of my students and, um, just recently, uh, she invited me to be a guest lecturer. Um. At Parsons, uh, Parsons School Design, the new school. Uh, and that was, it was a fantastic moment for me [00:03:00] because I felt like, um, I had launched somebody into the world and I'm so proud.

I'm absolutely so proud of, of who you are and, and, and what you're doing and what you're making and how you're contributing to the art world and the surf world and, um, and the educational world. And it's just, it's just a, it's an honor. It's an honor, really.

Em Joseph: That's meaningful. That's meaningful. I mean, I never, in high school, I never considered being a teacher, but in hindsight, I loved your class so much and learned so much from you, even beyond the curriculum that you taught, really informed. What kind of teacher I am today in a lot of ways. So, yeah. A lot of gratitude to you.

Chris Labzda: It's always great. I actually teach or taught. I teach sometimes still, but seeing your students get out into the world and like just blossom is just an incredible feeling, I must say. So,

Chris Coffin: it's unbelievable. I feel like, I feel like teaching is, is one of those things where if you, if you can give back and you can see [00:04:00] that thing grow, it's it, you feel, you feel like that it's come full circle and that's the reason why you were meant to do that thing, you know? And that, and I think if, if teachers can inspire their students to become teachers and, and give back to the world, it's the, it's the best thing in the world.

So, um, so anyway, we're here, we're here to talk about the, the epicenter of surfing and, and, and, and how your creative practice emanates outward from that. Um, so how about you just give us like a, like a background, like, like what's your personal history? Where did you come from? How did you learn to surf?

Um, you know, let's start there.

Em Joseph: Um, the question of where I I come from is one that kind of stumps me because I feel like I'm in the process of understanding that always. But also at this point in my life, I feel like I've [00:05:00] kind of finally come to a juncture where I feel grounded and still growing and still expanding, but kind of like I really know who I am.

I really know what I'm about, and I have a very kind of concrete, um, trajectory of, of where I'm going and what I see myself doing. But to answer your question more concretely, um, I'm a settler living in Lenape Hoing, also known as, uh, New York. I was born in Manhattan. I. And when my sister was born, when I was three years old, we moved to Westchester, we moved to Edgemont, um, which is where I met you. And ever since then, I've kind of been in and around New York. I went to Vassar College for undergrad, moved to New York City after college and ended up staying in the city to do my masters. And now I live in Brooklyn [00:06:00] and I live, um, I work out of a studio in Rockaway. So I kind of do the reverse of what most Rockaway surfers do, which is where they live in Rockaway and then they work in in Brooklyn or other parts of the city.

But I most days am now driving to Rockaway to work and hopefully surf if there are some waves. Um.

Chris Coffin: definitely by design, I'm sure.

Em Joseph: Oh, uh, 100%. I mean, I feel like for the last three and a half years that I have been surfing in Rockaway, I've been searching for the perfect scenario. And I got my dog Surah in, um, of last year. And she loved the beach so much, which was like a huge, uh, delight for me that I was like, I have to find a place out here.

And almost immediately I, I found a spot through, um, a couple that was walking their dog and our dogs were playing and they were like, Hey, we know we have a friend who has a, a back [00:07:00] house that you should take a look at. And yeah, that worked out, which was really great.

Chris Coffin: That's cool. So, so do you take the subway out there? Do you drive out there every day? What do you do? What's your, what's your work, you know, creative pathway, like every day

Em Joseph: I mean, I wake up at the crack of dawn with my dog. Um, so we either go for a run or a walk in a local park, or we hop in the car and just drive straight out to the beach. If we leave before seven, there's no traffic, and we're out there in 30 minutes and we spend the day. Um, usually if there's surf I'll walk her quickly, I'll walk a couple jetties, take a look at the waves, and then feed her and suit up and go out.

And it's really nice rhythm. It's a really nice way for us both to be set up for the day. So really needs to run around. And in a similar way, I feel like I really need to surf and I also really need to move to get the creative juices flowing. So it's, I'm really [00:08:00] grateful to have that situation and I'm really grateful to have Rockaway.

I of dreamed of being a surfer. Ever since I was a teenager, I, I, I, I really have been racking my brains about when my obsession was surfing started, but it started way before I, I actually started surfing. It might've been you, it might've been rocket power. It might've been just like my desire to engage in extreme sports and engage in subcultures and things that were really different from the suburban matrix of Edgemont. I never really felt like I fit in there and I was always dreaming and using music and other spaces and photography and film to transport myself somewhere else. And so I think like the idea of being a surfer, which was really different than the very like traditional sport matrix of [00:09:00] Edgemont, I think was.

Like something that was like a carrot before me. Um, but my mother entertained my interest. We would go on vacation and if there was an opportunity to take surf lessons, I would do that. Couple of times in, in Nantucket where my mother likes to spend summer, I would take surf lessons, but I really was never a surfer.

I was definitely like embodying the idea of something that I, I couldn't actually do. And I think if my mother knew that there was surfing in Rockaway, I think she would've, you know, entertained it. But I think my parents had no, absolutely no idea. I definitely remember seeing you change outta your wetsuit in the high school parking

Chris Coffin: In the parking lot. Yeah.

Em Joseph: Before school. And I was like, what is he doing? Little did I know that, you know, I'd be doing the same thing, rushing around and cutting corners so I could find time to surf. But I got into it. I [00:10:00] reconnected with, uh, my friend Lindsey Robertson, who is really one of my best friends now after Covid, um, lockdown like the, the very kind of intense part of Covid lockdown.

And she had quarantined with her partner at the time in Hawaii and had learned how to surf and had moved back to New York and, uh, was living in Rockaway. And I told her, I was like, wow, I've always really wanted to get into surfing. And she's like, well, you should get on board. And her partner was a surf instructor and he had this huge, like nine foot foamy and.

We went out and it was a beautiful September afternoon. The water was warm, the air was warm, and I struggled. I struggled. I struggled. I struggled until I caught this one wave and I actually went down the line and it was like something went off in my brain [00:11:00] and I just said to myself, I have to do this as much as possible for the rest of my life.

It was like instantaneous. And since that day I was at the beach, any chance I could get, I bought a board, immediately bought a wetsuit. I was just like instantly hooked watching surf films, thinking about how I could get better training programs, visualization. I said to myself, I'm gonna do whatever I can to get to a certain level so I can surf a certain style of wave and do that for as long as I can.

Chris Coffin: So let, let me, let me ask you this. So we, we kind of like, we were always aware of each other, but we kind of reconnected when you, um, had your, um, exhibition at the, uh, new museum in New York City. Um, and I definitely want to talk about that, um, [00:12:00] because I'm, I'm always interested in how, um, surfers and creatives, um, either.

Embody surfing in the work that they do

Em Joseph: Mm-hmm.

Chris Coffin: directly, or maybe it might be lurking under the surface as an inspiration, or maybe you keep it completely separate, like one from the other. And I was so interested in your new body of work. It was like I had known about you as a photographer on the fine art side, but then I got to see the project that you did at the, at, you know, the new museum and was blown away.

So I just want you to talk about that project. 'cause I think it was so interesting and it opened up a whole door to who you are as a person. And I've gotten to learn so much about you, um, [00:13:00] through that project. And so why don't, why don't you talk about that project?

Em Joseph: Yeah, of course. Um, so just a little background, I would say between my early exposure to photography and then through your class and undergrad and other experiences led me to apply to grad school and I, I really thought I wanted to be like a quintessential documentary still photographer almost immediately getting into graduate school.

Things changed for me. I had some people come to my studio who were really encouraging me to think about making video, and at first I was very hesitant, but then I realized I really liked moving image. I liked the movement, I liked the intervention of sound, and a huge sonic person, a [00:14:00] huge listener, appreciator of music.

And I liked that I could bring that into my visual work. And I would say the time between college and into grad school is also a moment when I really started to lead with my politics in terms of what I was thinking about and having a certain criticality about looking at the world around me. I started to become very interested in my maternal Lebanese ancestry.

So my mother is Lebanese American. My sister and I are Lebanese American. Um, we grew up in a very Arab household that was, um, very private, um, that I think not many people in Edgemont knew about. And I became very interested in our family archives and how our family came to America and the kind of situation of diaspora that, [00:15:00] um, our family structure now is described by.

And nature has always been a big guide for me. And I started to think about generally building a practice around how. People and land have enduring relationships with one another, especially in a context today where we are so extricated from nature. Most of us are, um, I know I'm talking to two surfers, so that's not necessarily the case, but really like this idea of landscape or land or however you wanna think about it, um, really to me pervades everything.

But I don't think that that is, um, readily apparent for most people. And I started thinking about this dynamic and I'm thinking about it currently through other projects, but I started thinking about it in relationship to this species of [00:16:00] tree that is endemic to the mountains of Lebanon, where my family's from, and the fact that I could actually find this tree planted in places, um, where my family had migrated to.

And I was really interested in this conversation between. The diaspora people in plants. And in the process of, um, conduct conducting this research, I connected with um, two, uh, architects, ya, ABIDA, who is Lebanese and Jama Abbas, who is Palestinian. And they were also doing research on the Lebanese cedar.

And they were looking at it as a climate refugee within Lebanon. And we actually decided to become collaborators. This is back in 2020 and

Chris Coffin: Well, hold on for a sec. So the, for those of you who don't know, I mean, I didn't know this until I saw [00:17:00] your film at the, at the museum, it's the, it's the, um, tree that is on the flag of Lebanon.

Em Joseph: yes.

Chris Coffin: and it's very prominent. And I, and I, I mean, if I, if I ever saw the tree, if I ever saw the flag, I would recognize it as the flag of Lebanon, but I did not know that that tree was so symbolic.

The country itself, and, and, and it carried so much meaning, so that.

Chris Labzda: And, and to be clear that people would take, that, they took like cuttings or seeds. They would plant it in other places.

Em Joseph: yeah. So they would take like young trees. Um, I did do a visit to the Natural History Museum in London, and there are all these books that Travelers had of, uh, filled with, um, pages dedicated to the Cedar of Lebanon, and there were seeds and, and, and, um, branches and things of this that they would bring back and plant.

Um, and they're actually all over [00:18:00] the UK and throughout northern Europe and, and also North America. Um, and Chris, yeah, you're right, the. The Lebanese cedar is this very pervasive symbol within Lebanon, but it also means specific things to certain people. The symbol has been co-opted as a very far right symbol by certain groups.

It's also been, um, kind of used by other movements, um, to describe certain political aims, um, social aims, ideological aims. And we are very interested in how this, you know, being of landscape had been sequestered into all of these different rhetorics. And we were like, well, it's just a tree. It doesn't have political beliefs.

And so the film really looks at isolating the tree. As a biological being from these, [00:19:00] um, agendas or policies or identities that have been placed on it. And then, uh, the film is complimented by a series of animated drawings that describe these ways in which the tree was used by different civilizations since ancient times, how the tree is used as a symbol, as a commodity.

And these are just two portions. Um, the short film and the animated drawings under a project called Cedar Exodus, which is kind of always growing and evolving. And it was a collaborative project that I did with EAD and jama and we were fortunate enough to show it at the New Museum, um, in the fall of.

Chris Labzda: listeners who haven't had a chance to dive into this, what was the specific utility or symbolism like that most people, you know, use this tree for? Um, was it like, was it, you were saying it was traded, it was a commodity. What, what in what respect? Just for our listeners that aren't as

Em Joseph: Yeah, of [00:20:00] course. Um, Lebanese cedarwood, like other species of cedar, is a, like a really phenomenal wood. It has a beautiful fragrance. It's really resistant to rot and decay, so it's really wonderful material to, um, build with. Um, it creates really solid foundations. It was, its resins were used in the process of mummification.

Its perfumes and other byproducts were used in church ceremonies, different rituals. It's cited in mythologies, so it's. There's a, a whole chapter where, uh, the cedar forest is included in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Um, there are all these, um, mythical or even religious tales where the cedar is a kind of prominent component.

Um, so it manifests both physically as like a material. It was also, uh, the [00:21:00] main product through which the Venetians who were at the La Socratic civilization, which means that they were mostly maritime. They didn't really settle on land. They were kind of constantly moving around. The Mediterranean, um, became a very prominent mercantile civilization, um, in the region.

Um, was really driven by their access to cedarwood because it was such a prize commodity. I.

Chris Coffin: I, I think I remember, um, tell me if I'm wrong, but like, throughout, throughout the centuries and the conflicts, um, in Lebanon that the, the symbolism of that tree was so significant and deep rooted that there was, there were even efforts to like eradicate the landscape of the tree. Is, is that Yeah, because because it was like, as if they were, were to take the trees away, it would take away like the, the strength of the Lebanese people or the [00:22:00] It was, yeah.

I mean, and, and, and yeah, I kind of, I kind of connected with the tree in a very human way. Um, I, I kind of felt like at the end of that film that was definitely a, uh hmm. What's that?

Chris Labzda: A second.

Chris Coffin: Um, it, I, I kind of felt like the tree was, had this like human quality to it. Um, I don't, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but it, uh, it seemed like a, like a main character.

It seemed like a, a character in the film, in the film.

Em Joseph: Yeah, I mean, our approach was certainly to anthropomorphize the tree or to kind of engender a certain degree of empathy, which the timing of showing it in the fall of 20, 23, 3 days after October 7th happened really engaged, very potent conversations about the treatment [00:23:00] of people and land in the lavant.

So we all know what happened. The genocide in Gaza started after October 7th, but also so did, um, uh. A war, and I would even say a genocide in south of Lebanon, um, began at the hands of the Israeli entity. And to go back to what you were saying before, Kris, just so I can loop back to this idea,

Chris Coffin: Mm-hmm.

Em Joseph: the tree was so prized that actually it is largely deforested in Lebanon.

So, um, you can visit mountaintops in Lebanon. The film also really indicates that Lebanon is a very small and very vertical country. It sees tremendous amounts of snowfall. You can actually ski and surf in the same day if you would like to and if there are waves, um, but uh, you can visit the mountaintops of [00:24:00] Lebanon.

Um, and they are completely barren. They used to be entirely covered with ancient cedar forest, which has now been cut down.

Chris Coffin: right.

Em Joseph: there are parks or reserves where Cedars exists now, where they're kind of sequestered in, in like, quote unquote controlled conditions. I would say that, you know, they suffer the same, um, environmental degradation that landscapes do in national parks here in the United States.

Um, so it's this very kind of, um, you know, um, what I wanna say, like monocultural approach to environmental preservation. Um, the trees really struggle to self germinate in the wild, so they have to be kickstarted in labs, which is something that we also showed in the film. But I think [00:25:00] also thinking about this trajectory of annihilation, of positioning landscape.

It's human and non-human agents as resources or things that are expendable. I think that that conversation on the advent of this horrible genocide, which we're still seeing happened, allowed us to have incredible conversations. And I think too, with people who maybe struggled to talk about what was happening in Gaza and in South Lebanon and now the West Bank, because it did have to do with trees, um, and not with people.

Um, I think we wanted to speak, you know, directly to those parallels. And it was a very potent and very emotional time to show that work. Um, and we feel very lucky that, that that was the kind [00:26:00] of happenstance of, of the timing. It was completely serendipitous.

Chris Coffin: Yeah.

Chris Labzda: So how did you get this in front of the, the curators at the new museum? Like did they approach you, did you approach them? Did they help finance the idea? Like how did it come to be?

Em Joseph: So we actually received a grant in 2020 to do the project from the Arab Fund for Arts and Culture. Um, so we actually made the film and the drawings, um, partially before a curator, Ian Wallace, who was phenomenal to work with, became interested in the work. Um, I should also say I, I don't think the new museum would've ever approved the exhibition, had the process happened before October 7th.

Um, and so again, that was really lucky with timing.

Chris Coffin: was very timely.

Em Joseph: Ian really, um. Was [00:27:00] super generous with us, really believed in the work, um, and I think could really see what it would become at a point when, you know, it had no score. We were still working on translation, there were still moving parts, things were still being, uh, shifted around.

And, uh, Chris, I mean, I know you know this, or both of you, both Chriss, um, it's really hard to find curators who have a, a sense of foresight for the work, um, who believe in the work, who can really see what it will become. And I think that was a, a, a another gift for us in that circumstance.

Chris Labzda: That's a good curator versus the other kind.

Em Joseph: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Coffin: So, so what I mean. It's interesting. There's so much I wanna talk about, but I, this, this, um, you know, talking about nature and the trees and it led us to, um, your class [00:28:00] in sustainable systems, which is also, um, you know, an extension of, of the things that you love and that you're passionate about. So, so tell us about the class, um, sustainable systems that you're teaching at Parsons.

Em Joseph: Yeah. Um,

Chris Labzda: or a master's level course that you're teaching.

Em Joseph: it's undergrad and it's actually a required course for first year students at Parsons, so it's all freshmen for the most part. Sometimes I get some upperclassmen who didn't take the course or transfers, things of that nature, but it's a completely interdisciplinary course. I have students who are across disciplines and they're also freshmen, right?

Like. They might do something completely different. And I love that. Like I love telling them, I'm like, don't listen to your parents if you like, don't like doing what you're doing. Don't do it. Don't waste your time. There's like a pathway in whatever, whatever sparks your intrigue. And that is something I have [00:29:00] really benefited from.

I think I kind of came to that approach later in my life than being a freshman in college. But it also is a spirit in which I teach the class where everything is applicable to sustainability. So very briefly, the course is a kind of survey seminar slash making course about sustainability. And the way that I teach it is really bridging ecological and then ethical considerations in sustainability and giving students both a kind of.

Conceptual framework and also some material considerations, working with biomaterials, mycelium, natural dyes, and kind of, um, giving them options, material options that they can work with throughout their, their time at Parsons. Um, and I really teach through this principle that caring for the earth means caring for people and caring for people means caring for [00:30:00] the earth and it's a really fun and engaging class.

Um, Chris, you visited during our water module, which was really exciting, and I think that your lecturer. Really elucidated for a lot of students, how they could bridge personal interest with performance and art making and research. And this kind of like ILI disciplinary layering is something that I'm very interested in in my own practice, but also in my life.

And I try and impart that on my students and I try and keep the course fun and I try to, um, REIT reiterate to them that they should be passionate, that they should care about these issues, that being an activist can come in many different forms. And yeah, it's a class I've been developing over the last eight semesters now, and, uh.

Chris Coffin: I came, I came away from, from that day, uh, you know, [00:31:00] lecturing there, um, that it really was a hybrid of so many different things. It was, um, it was about art. It was about creativity, but it was about science. It was about communities. It was about architecture, public space. It was about, um, environmentalism was about activism.

It was about, um. How, how all of these sustainable systems can come together in, in some conceptual and creative way. I mean, and, and I, I, I remember walking out of there that day and, and, and talking with you and I was thinking, you know, I sure hope that these kids can take all of this almost like civic and scientific practice and, and put it into some type of creative venue.

Um, and, and you never know. I may, it might not happen tomorrow. It might not happen this year. It might happen 10 years from now. I mean, because that's how, you know, you lay the groundwork. But [00:32:00] I was impressed. I was really impressed by the class. I thought it was great.

Chris Labzda: So, so often people think of, you know. These considerations as a, a constraint that's gonna get in the way versus a catalyst for, you know, ideas, which I think is probably what you're, you're pushing to a point

Em Joseph: Mm-hmm.

Chris Labzda: and I, it's great they're actually allowing you to teach that. You know, I think it's a really, um, fruitful thing to be doing. Like it's, you know, I'm sure they, it'll inspire people to, to think in different ways and push in different directions, you know, even though it may be perceived as a constraint, but it's, it's actually gonna help them down the road.

Em Joseph: Yeah.

Chris Labzda: pretty cool.

Em Joseph: I mean, the truth is, is that there's really nothing that exists that couldn't be helped by thinking about how it impacts the planet and how it impacts people. Um, there's really nothing I can think of that doesn't fall into that dynamic, so,

Chris Labzda: Was [00:33:00] it a hard sell for the, uh, the university where they jumped right on board once you started describing the course?

Em Joseph: well, I actually, was it, it existed before I was offered it, so I kind of fell into the curriculum by way of, um, I had a studio visit with, um, an art colleague and she actually recommended me for the course a couple months later. It was a huge surprise that I was offered it. Um, I was immediately super excited and everybody who teaches the course is coming from a different discipline.

So there are architects, there are visual artists, there are folks who are like more. You know, in the realm of science. And so each sustainable systems class is different and we're really encouraged to teach from our own practices and our own interests. And so my course is, um, a little different than everybody else's, but sometimes we do come together and share [00:34:00] resources.

And it's a really special community. I feel very lucky I get to teach the course. It's also extremely challenging at times. I would say climate anxiety systems anxiety is very real. That's something I try and be very, um, mindful of. Um, with a generation who has always grown up with this impending crisis, um, detailing their future.

I didn't grow up with that. I grew up with boomer parents who told me that the world would be there to, you know. Um, for me to explore and thrive in. I didn't have this kind of sense of the end of the world when I was young, not even in college even. Um, so it's a very different perspective for them and, uh, yeah.

Chris Coffin: I, yeah, it's, I, I think about that too. Like, like my, my [00:35:00] wife and I talk about, you know, what we think my son perceives about the world, you know, and like, I don't, as you know, Emma, I don't like to talk about politics too much. Um, but, you know, uh, you know, we sit around the dinner table and. My son will get up and leave the table, and I, I'll ask him, I'm like, do you think he understands like, what's going on, you know, on the federal level right now?

Does he understand like what's going on in the world and people's perception of the United States and like, what's going on? And, and she's like, no, no, not at all. He, he, he's just like in his own video game world and hanging out with his friends and, you know, I, I mean, I don't even, you're right, I don't even think I woke up to the fact that like, the world is a big place until like after college. Um, and, and your, your connection to it and your ability to affect it, um

Em Joseph: Yeah. I mean they, I think because of social media, they're very inundated by all of this. And they [00:36:00] have a social and political literacy that I didn't have at their age, so the level of learning. higher to a certain degree. Um,

Chris Coffin: It's faster

Em Joseph: yes, but I also think like part of my task is slowing them down

Chris Coffin: Sure.

Em Joseph: to more kind of like practical ways of working and thinking that are bypassed by having access to that kind of information.

So that's why we do listening exercises. That's why I have them describe what they see, describe what they hear, learn how to use words. You learn how to make connections between what you're feeling. If you like something saying why, if you hate something, saying why, like really brass tacks, approaches to material and to aesthetics and to also to things like policy.

Chris Labzda: Mm-hmm.

Chris Coffin: I, I, I, I agree with you. I mean, getting, that's one of the things that I [00:37:00] try to do with my students is like getting them to slow down, getting them to feel, see, hear. The nuances in the world that they're just flying by like every single day. And I loved at the beginning of your class that you, I, I don't know if you do this for every class, but like, I, I felt like you start every class with some type of like, um, uh, musical or meditative or like kind of auditory experience. It, it allows people to enter the room at their own pace. Like there's no expectation to be there at nine 30. Like there were people coming in at nine 20, people coming in at nine 40, and it was all good because we, we were all participating during that short duration of time in this listening exercise.

That was very mi It was a mindful practice, and it was, it was pretty special. And [00:38:00] then you were able to use that as an, as a, a jumping off point for what you wanted to talk about that day. I thought it was fantastic.

Em Joseph: Oh, thanks. I, it's, I also really love listening to things, so it's almost a, it's a selfish, um, component of class also. I mean, students really like it. Um, but I love being immersed in big sound, and I like the act of explicitly listening. I like being in my car. I really like engaging with music, sound, resonances, bass.

Um, and so it's also a grounding moment for me before I teach where I can kind of like work some things out, process my own approach to what the lesson will be, [00:39:00] um, and also to impart that anything is material, can be music, it can be clothing, it can be gardening, it can be surfing. Um, I also start the water module with the fact that I'm a surfer and I talk about surfing to my students because it's something I do that doesn't make me any money. It's something I do that makes me lose track of time. It's something I do that's completely antithetical to the way that I am in my on. Land life, which is like highly scheduled, super busy, very kind of like type A high energy. It's very different than that. And it gives me, uh, a sense of openness to other things that I, I think I would miss if I was stuck in my, like work, my work brain.

And it also gives me a sense of [00:40:00] euphoria that I don't get from anything else. And I encourage students to go and find that thing that makes them feel that way because it makes life meaningful and it's not linked to any kind of, um, fabricated or con conventional arbiters of success or, um, quote unquote making it.

Chris Labzda: Yeah, well surfing in that realm can do that. Where like, they always see you get in more and more trouble. The more you talk about surfing to people who don't do it or understand it, it almost makes them angry because like, you're wasting so much time. Like, I'm really not,

Chris Coffin: Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Labzda: and art making can be the same thing, particularly in, you know.

Em Joseph: Yeah.

Chris Labzda: States. I think everyone's like, it's thought of as just leisure. It's thought of as not important. Whenever you hear people talking about, um, [00:41:00] how we could trim down the budgets in schools just kicking music out and art, it's like they don't understand there. There's a lack of value in it and I guess it's that you could see those two things there.

Um.

Chris Coffin: I think it's, I think, I think it's, it, I'm, I'm listening to this and, and trying to draw some parallels. I mean, like, I feel like there are a lot of, like, there's a lot of gray space, there's a lot of like, empty space that can be so full at the same time. And I feel like, you know, on a flat day sometimes I'll just sit there and I'll listen, you know, and I, and I'll, and sometimes I'll taste the water.

Sometimes I'll, you know, move my hands back and forth and I'll listen or I'll watch the, the light on the horizon change or, you know, listen to the wind or, and that's just like being in the studio on a particular day where you're not really making anything, but you're sitting there thinking and you're looking [00:42:00] and you're trying to figure out what you're doing.

And, and both of those, those kind of almost flow states are. Are so meditative and so necessary that I think those are the things that you need to extract and also point people to at the same time, whether it's other surfers who are more worried about like getting better position or, you know, getting the next wave.

Like sometimes I just sit there and just like, let it all go by because I'm just taking in those, those subtle nuances and I'm watching it happen or listening to it happen. Um, you know, and, and when people think like, you know, I, it, it's kind of funny. My, my wife is a painter and, um, you know, I know some days for her are very active with her painting and some days are very passive. but that doesn't mean that work didn't get done. You know, it's, it's, so, I guess, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, you know, te teaching, teaching the students to tap [00:43:00] into those. The silence of those moments is really where a lot of inspiration and information can come from.

Em Joseph: Yeah, it's really true. I mean, the first surf film I ever watched was this PBS documentary about RELs Sun. It's called Heart of the Sea. And if you haven't seen it, it's really amazing. I mean, I'm kind of obsessed with her and her style, but also her commitment to her community and the way in which she was a teacher and how she did that relentlessly on top of surfing and diving while being so sick and eventually dying of breast cancer.

And was really someone who really lived through surfing. I think also thinking about surfing as a practice and not as a sport through situating it as a, [00:44:00] um, indigenous ritual, um, that has now been like re-contextualized as a sport, um, in the global north. And yeah, that film just made me. Think about so much.

I actually pray every time or just before I enter the ocean and I wait for a lull. I wait for the ocean to tell me I can enter.

Chris Coffin: Hmm.

Em Joseph: Um, and in the film she talks about how she was never afraid when she went to the ocean because all of her ancestors were there. And so surfing has also opened up like a spirituality for me, um, like a resituating of my approach to landscape, which I'm, I feel very lucky.

I've spent a lot of time in nature throughout my life [00:45:00] through various endeavors. Um, but yeah, that film gave me a lot that I also bring to the classroom that I think is not necessarily academic. I think the class. Um, is very comprehensive, but when I can stray from anything that is too didactic or um, like textbook oriented, um, I really try and like run in the other direction

Chris Coffin: Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Labzda: I am happy you didn't say point break.

Em Joseph: you know, I've actually never seen that.

Chris Coffin: Uh, it's, it's worth it. It's worth it. It's, it's in the cannon of surf film. You have to see it. Um, so I wanted, uh, jump ahead since we're, we're, we're back into the surf speak here. You're, you're, you just recently told me em that you're, you, you are working on something right now called Surfers in Solidarity. Can you tell, tell us about that.

Em Joseph: [00:46:00] Yeah. Um, so it's actually a coalition of surfers. It, I didn't start it. I joined, um, in the spring of last year. Um. It's a, um, a coalition of surfers of Rockaway, surfers of New York water, people who stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people and their fight for liberation. And we are an organizing body.

We, we lead fundraisers, we create safe spaces for surfers and beach goers who are aligned in the cause. Uh, for Palestine, um, we have held three different paddle outs now, memorial paddle outs for the martyrs of Gaza in South Lebanon. Um, and it's a space that I have become increasingly active in. Last Sunday we [00:47:00] held a teach-in and a screening fundraiser where we.

Had a, a teach-in which is like, um, informal lecture that, um, kind of imparts information on a pressing political issue, but also gives people tools for how they could take action to advocate for that cause. And then we showed a series of short films from the region to kind of detail and, um, describe the situation through lens-based media.

And we raised a really amazing amount of money that we're distributing to families in the region who are either living in Gaza or the West Bank or in South Lebanon, which has been seeing, uh, horrible destruction. Um. You know, since, since late 2023. Um, and we are also really interested in this. I, I touched on it a little bit earlier, but this kind of [00:48:00] isolating surfing as a decision as, um, a choice to uphold practices that were stolen from indigenous people as a way of building colonial systems in their territories.

So, as I'm sure you guys know, surfing was explicitly outlawed in Hawaii as a way of controlling that society. Um, and so linking that erasure, linking that. Kind of attempt at cultural annihilation to what is happening in Palestine today is a big part of our mission. And so thinking a across scales of time, um, thinking across, um, different skills of cultural practice and engagement, and also thinking about how we can align the community, educate folks who [00:49:00] want to know more and really have an impact by raising funds that we can send directly to individuals who are in dire need.

So yeah, that's been a really fulfilling community to be a part of. I have so many phenomenal comrades, Zane s um, a close comrade of mine from the group was on the podcast previously with Tyler. Um, and it's been a really meaningful way of bridging. You know, things that really matter to me, both, both through my personal ancestry and, and also through, you know, my code of ethics and, and bridging that with surfing has been really extraordinary.

Chris Coffin: So, so how, so I'm gonna go back to something that we talked about very in the very beginning. Like, so we've just listened to, you talk about like three different things that you're involved in, right? Whether it's your educational practice as a professor, the filmmaking, or, um, you know, your, [00:50:00] your community in, in Rockaway. Where is this, where is this gonna find its way into your work? I mean, it's it, and, and the question was, is it, is it directly, does it directly influence your work? Is it under the surface or are you keeping it separate? What do you, what do you think about that?

Em Joseph: It's all of those things. So I have started, um, filming in the water, um, which has been a real practice of like relearning how to be a cinematographer. Everything from like positioning to holding the housing, to frame rate all of these things. Tyler Haft, who is on the podcast previously was really generous and gave me some pointers and I was just starting.

Um, so I've actually started filming in the water. Um, I've made a couple of like short vignettes, um, but I have [00:51:00] some ideas of like how to expand on the structure of a surf film, both in terms of like a narrative arc and then it's. Content and purpose. Um, surfing impacts my life and my creative engagements and the fact that it takes me away from work, it gives me space from work, it is a tension of when there are waves and I feel the need to be in my studio.

It becomes a very explicit choice. And I think having, um, those things, uh, sometimes competing for the same space, um, makes me understand that I can't have everything all the time.

Chris Coffin: It is hard.

Em Joseph: [00:52:00] it makes me also really grateful for when there are waves in Rockaway. So it kind of like. I, I made this decision last summer.

I was like, I'm never gonna be upset when there are not waves, because that's the ocean telling me that I should be in the studio. And when there are waves, if I've spent time in the studio and I've applied myself, then I'm gonna be like, okay, now I can go and enjoy the waves. Like I always want to be in this kind of dialogue with the ocean.

And in that way, surfing really applies to what I'm after in my films. Um, so I make films that are driven by interviews that I have with people, so I have a sense of what the narrative arc will do and where I want the film to go. But the kind of trajectory of the story is out of my control. And my, my [00:53:00] challenge, and really my mission is to.

Really listen and see, um, what is being expressed to me and let that be the kind of arbiter of truth of what it is I'm trying to get at. And in that way, the films are kind of unexpected. They're meandering. And it's the same thing with surfing. It's no swell is the same, no wave within the same swell is the same.

Uh, the wind can change at any minute. So surfing is really a part of the creative practice. I think because I approach both activities or both practices, to repeat that word in the same way. And it's not like I'm patient all the time, like I'm super impatient. Like I, um. I am always kind of reckoning with [00:54:00] wanting to control and wanting to like have a certain experience.

And I, I think surfing really reflects upon what is I, what it is I'm trying to do. And also that it might not happen at the pace I'd like it to happen or it might not arrive that the outcome that I would like to see maybe something I wanna investigate just isn't interesting at the end of the day. Um, so it's really related in all of these different refractions.

Chris Labzda: So would you say that surfing might help you have the confidence in your artistic process then, because you know that it might deviate, but that's okay from what you initially thought? Or is that, is that kind of what you're trying to say?

Em Joseph: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Labzda: That's cool. Um, what filmmakers do you find inspiration in, like, in this, this vein?

Like who do you [00:55:00] like look up to? Aesthetically or narratively? Like what is it? Like who do you like surf world, art world, who's like, kind of the butter on your bread or like who, who do you like with that kind of stuff?

Em Joseph: Yeah. Oh my God. Um, I'll try and keep it brief.

Chris Labzda: Yep.

Em Joseph: I really love, um, Brett's stories, documentaries where she's like very much leading with questions about a certain idea, and there are films with like a lot of contrasting, um, ideology around a certain topic. I kind of, I really like that tension. I really love Chloe Z's early films where she was building relationships with.

People on indigenous reservations here in Turtle Island and working with them, um, to tell their stories. Um, [00:56:00] I've always been very moved by Chantal Ackerman's films and this, um, kind of, uh, either fluidity or like a kind of disjointed narrative between, um, letters, um, footage of certain places. There's this really almost haunting film she made of her mother in the last year of her mother's life, which is really like a meditation on the act of, of filmmaking, um, and how far one would really take it.

Um, and. A film I think about a lot is, uh, Charles Burnett's, killer of Sheep. I actually just showed that to, um, my, um, video students. I teach another class in the fine art department this [00:57:00] semester that is a kind of video filmmaking class. And that film is just like visually so stunning. Like every, every Frame is a photograph.

And I think it kind of like brings me back to my, um, roots as a still photographer. Um, I still do photograph quite a bit and I still photograph on film for the most part. Um, but his impetus for making that film was because he was looking at the film industry and he wasn't seeing any narratives that were akin to experiences that.

He was, um, familiar with, he wasn't seeing people in film that looked like him. And so it was one of the first films I saw that had a real social mission to uplift, um, under recognized voices. And it does so [00:58:00] in a way where he really doesn't impart his opinions or thoughts, um, about these people's lives.

And it's a very holographic film in that it's, it's a, a narrative fiction, but at times it feels like a documentary. And I really haven't seen anything like that film. You know, it was made in 1978. I remember someone at the end of college recommended I watch it and, um, it's, uh, stayed with me for a very long time and I, I see it, I see it differently again and again.

Chris Coffin: Oh my God, I love that. I love that I can look at a work of art, you know, watch a film from decade to decade and the meaning just can change and you, you, but it stays with you. I love that. Um. I'm gonna kind of like make us laugh a little bit here. So we're talking about film and the last [00:59:00] time we spoke, um, you were telling me something about, and I laughed at this, uh, because you were telling about your obsession with vampires and you were telling me that you had an idea, um, to make a film about vampires and surfing.

And I laughed and I was like, oh my God. I love vampires also, you know, so I have a thing for vampires, but, um, I loved your idea. It like, it suddenly moved away from humorous to like, really interesting. So please tell us about your vampires in surfing film.

Em Joseph: Yeah, so I love vampires. I love everything goth. I was like always a kind of weird punk, rock goth kid in high school. I always felt really different. I decided to lean into that. I, um, [01:00:00] really just love the whole genre and love just being moody and, um, and, um, sinking into that like genre of feeling. I love the sound.

I love the reverb. I love just the kind of like genre of darkness. It's always appealed to me and it's a space that I can retreat back to. Before I got into surfing, I was really into clubbing. I really liked. Raves and going to clubs and being in dark spaces, loud noises, and um, it's just something I'm drawn to.

And sometimes people ask me why, and I just think it's like a place of refuge for me. Um, but I read this book called The Drop by Thad Zukowski, which I'm sorry, this is not humorous, but it's a really amazing book about addiction. It's a memoir, um, part [01:01:00] memoir where he talks about his experience as an addict and how surfing was a way of kind of, um, remediating his addictive, um, past, um, using substances and also a history of how surfing is either, um, a way of lifting, surf, uh, surfers out of addiction or has actually been a means of bringing them back into addiction.

And he talks about how surfers and addicts are, they exist in a liminal space, right? Like addicts are of this world, but they're always kind of in their own realm dealing with their addiction. And surfers are of the land. Um, and, but they always wanna be in the ocean, but they can't live in the ocean. They can't stay there.

And so they also exist in the liminality and, um. Chris, when you were talking earlier about like not being able to talk to people who [01:02:00] don't surf about surfing, it's like you're always in this in-between world. And to be honest, like when I was younger, I really felt like I had never fit in. I had a hard time being someone who was really into sports and into the arts.

Um, when I was younger, those things were not cool to combine like they are now. And I think that's kind of what got me into punk and goth in the first place. But I read this book and I was thinking about, I was like, oh, well, vampires are also liminal. They, you know, are. Um, immortal to a certain degree, but they don't really, uh, fit in to this like earthly plane or this epoch or whatever, and they have to kind of subsist in this life through the kind of like ending of, of life through sucking someone's blood or partially or holy or whatever.

And [01:03:00] I have just watched so many vampire films and I think at the time I was watching that comedy called What We Do in The Shadows about Vampires living in Staten Island. And the premise of it was just so funny to me and worked so well that I thought about, well, what if there were vampires that lived in Rockaway and they, you know, exist in this?

Liminal space. They're extricated from all the other vampires because they don't require human blood to survive. They require salt water. They require brackish water. And so the story is that there's this troop of vampires that for centuries lived in Jamaica Bay and then Jamaica Bay became increasingly polluted with toxins and plastics.

And so they had to venture, um, across the peninsula to find cleaner water on the Atlantic side. And, [01:04:00] um, this is like half baked, but they basically take up surfing. Um, so it's gonna be a kind of post-punk goth noir surf film about a series of, uh, Rockaway vampires. And they'll each have their own identity and there'll be some very funny b roll.

But I think it'll be a meditation on this, uh, idea of liminality, whether that has to do with what it means to be a surfer, if it, if that's what it means to be someone who lives in a polluted world. Uh, so it'll have like all these different, um, kind of layers to it in terms of thinking about this idea and how it relates to our existence.

Chris Labzda: Hmm.

Chris Coffin: I, I love it. I absolutely love it. I think it's so great and it has to happen. It's great. Did you, did [01:05:00] you see the, uh, uh, most recent, uh, Nosferatu? Did you get to see it?

Em Joseph: I actually haven't

Chris Coffin: Oh my gosh, because I

Em Joseph: is like

Chris Coffin: I spoke to you like a month ago, and I was like, you've got to see it. It, it's really good. It's, I love it. It's so good.

Chris Labzda: When you, when you were speaking about the, the club culture that you're into, the whole God thing, did you get to see an, uh, mark Lackey's recent show at Gladstone?

Em Joseph: I didn't see that one, but I saw the one that he did at PS one years ago where he showed his threads piece and then he also did a series of performances. I love his work. Um,

Chris Labzda: in that vein, it seems like that's, you know, where you're at, even though it's definitely not the same aesthetically or narratively, but it's just, you know, I could see now where you're coming from based on, you know, our conversation. That's really, really cool.

Em Joseph: Yeah. He has a really good NTS show also.

Chris Coffin: Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw this out there. It's probably the worst thing to [01:06:00] do at the tail end of our interview, but, um, it was a, it's always. I, you know, I, I try to speak to our guests a little bit beforehand just to kind of gauge, you know, where we're going to go or who this person who you are, you know.

And, uh, one of the things he said to me was, um, surfing saved my life. And that can be an hour long conversation. It, it, it can be. Um, and I think, I think any surfer knows that there's this healing element that exists when you get out there in the water. I think when you paddle out and you get to the lineup and you stop and you catch your breath and you look around, there's this moment of, of peace and connection to something way bigger than you that is spiritual.

I mean, it's undeniable. Um, so when you said to me, um, surfing saved my life, I [01:07:00] didn't ask. Know, it was like one of those, I don't know, statements that went out into the world and I just, I just let it hang there and I listened and I just put it in my back pocket and I was like, I'll think about that one.

So, here it is. Um, if you could, I, it's, it's hard to summarize that statement, but like, can you kind of give us a little bit?

Em Joseph: Yeah, I mean, it, it can't be concretized, it's unfolding. I am, I am speechless that I am so lucky to have found something that I love so much. It is, is actually my favorite thing to do in the world is surf. Um, I am just balled over by the fact that I have the privilege to be able to [01:08:00] surf. Surfing came to me at a moment when I was deeply unhappy and deeply lost.

I also started surfing when I started teaching sustainable systems. And it kind of barged its way into my life. I kept meeting people who were surfers and I actually had a huge block about getting in the water. Um, I had a friend, Emil Askie, who literally was trying to get me in the water for years, and it, it's almost like the flood gates just opened.

And I think my resistance was not really about getting in the water and moving through that like process of intimidation, which I think all, you know, particularly adult learner surfers, which I am go through when they first enter the lineup and, [01:09:00] and have to navigate all of these things all at once. But I think it was really, I think I understood subconsciously that committing myself to surfing would mean. A total abandonment. Abandonment of a way of life that I had been told, and I think almost brainwashed myself that I had to follow. And it was this excuse to completely move away from very traditional notions of what my life should look like. And ever since then, I have been in this process of kind of losing who I was before surfing, but really to kind of characterize that a bit better is having very appropriate and very specific ways of really embodying myself.

Like I was always in touch with [01:10:00] those things, but I didn't have means. Through which to access them. And I know that this is all very abstract, but it has led me into my existence in a way that I don't know if I could have accessed that through other means. And it was this trajectory that has created a life of openness and exploration.

Whereas before I felt very blocked and I felt very limited. And it's also just introduced me to amazing people. Some of my best friends today I've met through surfing. It has given me incredible insights into my practice. It has enabled me to. Engage with a piece of landscape. I would visit once or twice a year when I went to the beach with my friends.

[01:11:00] I'm out at the beach even when there aren't waves. Walking with my dog and just taking it all in. And it has really enabled me to chart my path as an artist by giving me a rubric or an example of something that where I was like, okay, I can do this. Where I look at my trajectory as an artist, you know, Chris, you were the only artist I knew growing up.

Like I didn't have. Examples of what it meant to commit myself to both teaching and also to artistry. And I think at that time, you know, you were my teacher and I didn't really understand that I could lean on you in that way. And you know, retrospectively I'm like, wow. Chris was like this phenomenal example of what I would eventually find for myself.

[01:12:00] But surfing gave me something to lean on where I was like, okay, I'm gonna take a really deep, deep breath. I'm gonna take this risk, I have a gut feeling and I'm going to stray away from everything I was taught and, and have a lot of faith that it'll work out. And I think I'll be in the process of that for as long as my existence.

Um, goes on for, but it's, you know, I think I'll always have the practice to guide me in that way.

Chris Coffin: Yeah. I, I think, I think once, you know, we, we always say once you're bit by the bug, right? Once you're bit by the bug, I mean, it, it does become that anchor. It does become that anchor to almost everything. I mean, some people can compartmentalize surfing, you know, but like, I feel like it's the anchor for me that like is connected to everything else, [01:13:00] you know?

It's, you know, every day I wake up and I look at the weather, and I think about the weather, and I'm like, all right. It's a low pressure system. It's a high pressure system. You know, there's a, there's a storm off the coast and there's, you know, the wind's on shore, the wind's offshore, and you know, even if you can't get on it, you're still thinking about it and you know, and then you start getting itchy and you're not in the water.

And, you know, and you were talking about your creative practice too, and you were just like, well, if I can kind of get ahead of myself and I, you know, the waves are flat, then it's time for, it's nature's way of telling me that I should be in the studio,

Em Joseph: Yeah, I mean there are ways of being, like, for me, like very efficient about things. I think like my nature is to be very efficient. Like these days I've been very obsessed with like forecasting and like, like the degree of the swell direction and like really trying to dial it in so that like when it's happening I can just like, just forget.[01:14:00]

All the limitations, like, I'm like ready to just, um, dive in. But I think it's also like Ocean will always do what it wants.

Chris Coffin: And you

Chris Labzda: also, it's liberating where you could just say, Hey, like where we live, like I've surfed in and around New York and New Jersey like for a very long time, and it is so contingent upon conditions that when it happens, you do drop everything if you can. And you say, okay, like you really know what's important on that day.

If it, if it. Doesn't allow you to get in the water. Like there's something really comforting about that, where you go, no matter what, like when it turns on, my art practice will be there and I'm gonna go do this thing. Or like, you know, like, not many people do that with their jobs, I think. But you know, we're lucky that we, if you've carved that out, which it sounds like you have, that's, you know, you're a very lucky person.

Chris Coffin: You know, I'll, I'll [01:15:00] throw something out there that a, uh, uh, a, a prior guest on our show, um, recently said to me, I think within the last three months, and I, John Baylor, um, you know, the Ceramicist, um, and also the, uh, curator of the Rising Tide Show at the Jamestown Art Center. Um, he said to me, not so long ago, you know, we're kind of like in this middle age, you know, you know, place in our lives where we're balancing work and family and, you know, responsibilities and, you know, gone are the days where you can just drop everything whenever you feel like it, and then just go out there and surf.

I mean, we, we had those days, but like, I was getting all pissy because I had missed like, you know, a, a swell or two in a row. And he was like, Chris, it's okay. The ocean will be there for you when you need it. And I was like. You're right.

Em Joseph: always more waves. There's always more waves. Like that's the thing, that's the [01:16:00] other thing about like this vampire connection, like it's, for me, it's never enough. Like if I surf three days in a row and like I haven't read an email and my life is a mess, like I still want more, like I still am not satisfied.

Like for me, I don't think this, the itch will ever be scratched. Maybe I'll get to a certain point, maybe it's because I haven't really been surfing for that long, but I, I, uh, it fills me up, but then it always leaves me wanting, like that addictive part of my brain is definitely firing.

Chris Coffin: It's funny, like you, you can have like four days of hurricane swell. Built up in your shoulders and your back, and you are like, Ugh, I'm so tired. [01:17:00] But even on that day where you're like, I gotta give myself a break, you're like, I gotta get back out there. You know? Totally jonesing, just like vampires, you know, they're jonesing all the time.

Em Joseph: Yeah, actually I pulled, I pulled, um, some song lyrics because it, it kind of speaks to this point and it's, um, it's closed down by the Cure, which is actually released in the year I was born. And I feel like the lyrics are really about surfing.

Chris Coffin: Is that on

Em Joseph: He goes,

Chris Coffin: That's, that's on, uh, disintegration,

Em Joseph: integration,

Chris Coffin: you go.

Em Joseph: he goes, I'm running out of time.

I'm out of step and closing down and never sleep for wanting hours, the empty hours of greed. Uselessly always the need to feel, again, the real belief of something more than mockery. If only I could fill my heart with love

Chris Coffin: That is, [01:18:00] quite honestly, that is my favorite Cure album and I think their strongest album by far.

Em Joseph: a hundred

Chris Coffin: Yeah, yeah. Well, I could, I could totally just geek out on the Cure because their latest album is insane as well. But, um, yeah, go ahead.

Em Joseph: song is like a wave, so it doesn't have a traditional structure like other songs do. There's an intro, there's this like, um, uh, sequence of, of lyrics, and then there's like, uh, an outro like, it, it's, it's, um. It's a structure that the cure uses a lot. So like all cats are gray on faith follows the same kind of like, um, linear, like one kind of pathway trajectory of a song.

And um, yeah, I think about that a lot.

Chris Coffin: God, the, the, don't get me started on the QRF, but I've [01:19:00] been like on a deep dive ever since their la their latest album came out. So I think this might be a perfect time for us to, to do our, um, on the clock. Okay. Because it's, it's usually a, a rapid fire succession of questions where you're not allowed to think.

You just gotta answer. And you've actually probably answered one of them already. So Are you ready?

Chris Labzda: The shortest answer possible.

Chris Coffin: Yeah. No discussions. You just gotta like rip it. You just gotta go. All right, so the, the question that you probably just already answered, what are you currently listening to?

Em Joseph: I am listening to this really phenomenal album right now that was released by a jazz project and it's recordings of a wedding sin singer, uh, at a wedding in Janine in 1990. It's amazing.

Chris Coffin: Wow, I didn't expect that. All right, here we go. What are you currently writing?

Em Joseph: [01:20:00] Right now I've been riding my seven four speed egg that

Chris Labzda: Hmm.

Em Joseph: uh, made by Chris Hall. Um, he's like a Cosa Mesa shaper, and I rode the board, uh, early in my surfing days. I, I rented it on a whim from Daydream Surf Shop when I was surfing in California. Fell in love with it and got one for myself.

Chris Coffin: Nice. I love that. All right. What are you currently reading?

Em Joseph: I am reading, uh, RA Hay's, uh, book on the history of war in South Lebanon for a film I'm working on, uh, about ecoside in the Levant, both historically and in the context of what's been unfolding over the last 17 months. It's called a landscape of war.

Chris Coffin: Cool. Excellent. All right. What is your favorite photographic process and [01:21:00] why?

Em Joseph: I have to say just traditional black and white, dark room. There's really nothing that beats the magic of 35 millimeter wet process.

Chris Labzda: Mm-hmm.

Chris Coffin: I agree with you a hundred percent. Um, when was the last time you dropped in on someone and it.

Em Joseph: Last time I dropped in on someone was when my friend Chris Christiano and I decided to do a party wave. So I technically dropped in on Chris and we both wiped out and his fin put a slice through my 8.5.

Chris Coffin: All right. So

Em Joseph: No party waste.

Chris Coffin: ne next question. Did you feel badly about it?

Em Joseph: No,

Chris Coffin: No.

Em Joseph: I mean,

Chris Coffin: Bad.

Em Joseph: look, I mean, here's [01:22:00] my thing. Like I know that this is not rapid fire, but like boards are objects, boards, like boards come and go. Like I don't, as long as everyone's not hurt, it's just a board.

Chris Coffin: Hmm. Chris? Chris and I have had hour long conversations about this.

Chris Labzda: Magic board that you have that is perfect.

Chris Coffin: All right. What was your most recent memorable wave?

Em Joseph: I was surfing in NOS in January and typically in most of Costa Rica the winds go onshore in the afternoon, but I was really lucky to have two days. Well, I was there where it was blowing offshore all day for two days, and uh, there was one very [01:23:00] golden, right. I got at sunset overhead. Lots of power that will stay with me.

Chris Coffin: I love that where you said it was in nos.

Em Joseph: Mm-hmm.

Chris Coffin: Nice. Um, Chris, do you have any, any last minute rapid fires you wanna throw out there?

Chris Labzda: No, I think that was perfect.

Chris Coffin: Cool. Great. M you are awesome. Um, I've, I love your creative practice. I love who you are as a person. You make me proud. Um, and, uh, I am looking forward to more great things, more excellent artwork out there in the world.

Um, and one day we'll get to surf together one day.

Chris Labzda: Yep.

Em Joseph: We gotta make it happen.

Chris Labzda: Is that film traveling past a new museum? Does that have a new home coming up? And is there any other projects coming up that our audience could go and see?

Em Joseph: Yeah. So we will be having a screening of the film [01:24:00] this spring. Um, so we'll be announcing that on the Eco Rove Instagram, and we'll Yad, and I'll also announce it on our personal. Um, that's the cedar exodus. Where can we be found? Film and the drawings, which are titled Trapped and Exploited. Um, ya and I by way of Eco Ro, will be showing work as part of, uh, the New Ink demo series.

Ya and I are, um, creative science track members of the new Inc incubator program this year. And we'll be giving a showcase talk and also showing work, um, that is connected to our Project Land Keepers, which is about the history and, um, resistance of humans and, and non-humans in the lavant to [01:25:00] campaigns of Ecoside.

Um, so that'll be in June.

Chris Labzda: Fantastic.

Chris Coffin: Awesome. Awesome. Um, you're amazing. You're great.

Chris Labzda: Thank you

Em Joseph: It's been really great to be in conversation with, with both of you and yeah, I'm really touched and honored to have been asked to be on the show.

Chris Coffin: Cool. All right. We're out.