Point of Change with Rebecca Coley
[00:00:38] Tyler: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to the Swell Season Surf Podcast. I'm your host, Tyler Brewer. In [00:02:00] 1998, the Surfer's Journal printed a 36 page article titled, Custodians of the Point. The article told the tale of Kevin Lovett and John Giesel and their discovery of one of the world's most iconic waves. This article, for me, really helped to open my eyes to some of the consequences we as traveling surfers can have on local and indigenous cultures and people, all in the name of finding perfect waves.
[00:02:30] Tyler: And it was a cautionary tale that I really took to heart and it made me reflect on my impact when I did travel for surfing. The story of the discovery of the wave in Lugunji Bay is perhaps unlike any other surf discovery ever. To quote the Surfer's Journal, it made those travel epics by which we had previously measured all cultures heroes seem like light hearted stuff.
[00:02:58] Tyler: Fast forward to [00:03:00] 2024, and that story has now been brought to the screen in the documentary film, Point of Change, chronicling a community dramatically changed forever by the discovery of this perfect wave on the island of Nias in Indonesia. The film covers how these two surfers, John Giesel and Kevin Lovett stumbled across this perfect wave and the chain reaction of unintended consequences.
[00:03:25] Tyler: In this story, the New Colonials are the surfers. Innocent traveling hippies with no idea of the culture they are walking into. They find their holy grail, but the dark side is malaria. Culture clashes in the case of a missing girl from their traveling group. They also unwittingly opened the door to the devastating destruction of the pristine paradise they discovered as the secret travels fast, far, and wide.
[00:03:52] Tyler: The film was made by award winning director, Rebecca Coley, who masterly weaves the story of the surfers while telling the [00:04:00] story of the people of Neos. Rebecca's filmography is seeped in great storytelling and tends to put a mirror back on society. Point of Change is a massive reflection of the impact of surfers and colonial travel culture.
[00:04:15] Tyler: It reveals an all too resonant picture of a society changed inexorably by powerful economic and environmental forces outside of their control. A contemporary, a contemporary cautionary tale of Paradise Lost. And honestly, listeners, like, I cannot emphasize how important I think it is that you watch this film.
[00:04:37] Tyler: I think it's incredible. And any surfer who travels should watch it. Uh, just to make us more aware of our impact as we go around the world in search of fun waves, maybe not perfect waves. And we are also very fortunate enough to have Rebecca Coley here on the show, joining us from the UK. And I'm really [00:05:00] excited to just dive into this story, so, uh, welcome to the show, Rebecca.
[00:05:07] Rebecca: Thank you so much. Wow. That's amazing. Thanks so much. I don't really know where to go from there. I do
[00:05:16] Tyler: We're done.
[00:05:17] Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. I mean, thank you. Um, I would just like to just say straight away, just to recognize and acknowledge that there's no Niessan presence on the podcast. And so I'm only going to be speaking to what I can speak to.
[00:05:30] Tyler: Of course.
[00:05:31] Rebecca: there's no member of Soraki, Botahile or Lagundi here, but um, I just want to ground into that and acknowledge that before we begin, but thank you so much for having me on. I'm very honored and I love your podcast and all the amazing people that you speak to. So thanks for having me.
[00:05:44] Tyler: now I'm blushing. Now it's your time to make me blush. All right. I it's it's wild like that like I said and and like I think I told you just before like I that article like [00:06:00] really shaped how I viewed surf travel and I grew up uh reading like stories of Kevin Naughton, Craig Peterson, and other surf adventures, Peter Troy even, and it all From like, I was like around 13, 14, when I discovered some of those writings and that type of attitude towards surf travel and, uh, you know, and it all felt very swashbuckling, you know, and it felt really adventurous and exciting into a kid growing up in suburban, you know, life, like all of that just seems so amazing, but then reading this story originally, it totally changed it and made me realize like how.
[00:06:43] Tyler: bad surfing can be or how bad travel and our attitudes and and the things that we do can really affect these cultures and these people in a negative way and we should be very mindful when we travel and try to have [00:07:00] a really light footstep but it Yeah, it's it's fascinating, you know, and I was just when I saw this movie.
[00:07:08] Tyler: I was like, oh my god I'm so excited to see this and to hear like Kevin Lovett's, you know reflections on it all You originally so you originally did a short film called changing point about a local surfer Bonnie Gaya who was And was that how you got involved in this larger story of Nia's? How did you come about this story and want to produce a whole film about it?
[00:07:39] Rebecca: Well, I mean I first went to Niass 20 years ago And I was just a traveler and I just had heard rumors of this wave some like older surfers I knew on the beach had kind of told these stories and I was like, oh that place sounds amazing And then I spent a year in Australia. I'd done a sort of work visa thing and I guess I was delaying going home I was on my own and I was like, [00:08:00] I'm just gonna go And check out Sumatra.
[00:08:02] Rebecca: And it was like the whole thing. I wanted to see the orangutans in, in the jungle. And then I wanted to go to Niasse and, you know, I was just blown away by this amazing wave. I couldn't, you know, get over, like it, it really was everything that everyone had talked about. Um, but I also was. It was something that I couldn't quite articulate immediately.
[00:08:25] Rebecca: It was just like, there's something about this that doesn't feel right. Like I can live here for a pound a day and I could extend my visa and stay longer, but you know, people are living in poverty and yeah, like the guys have got great banter and they're like really funny and they've got like Aussie accents and you know, they're really.
[00:08:43] Rebecca: Great fun. But then if you actually see where they go home to, they're working in the rice field and their home is like a little, I remember like one guy who actually turned up at a new key screening Faso, who I'd met the very first time I went there. And it was like, literally like, you know, a meter wide.
[00:08:58] Rebecca: And he's like, this is where I live with my [00:09:00] sister and my mom. And I was just like, it was a proper, like shock to the system of like, holy shit, I'd never seen, um, you know, that, that, that kind of level of, um, poverty and I don't, I mean, I say that so respectfully because he was amazing to be so kind and, um, that was the thing, you know, he was very generous and yet, um, it just kind of like really took it home to me about, The sort of inequality, I guess.
[00:09:27] Rebecca: And then, uh, yeah, there's, it's a really long story. Like I kind of thought I'd love to make a film here, but I, you know, needed to figure out how I was gonna pay for that. And then got involved with an n with NGO work and I ended up back in NS after the tsunami helping with an aid project. And that's kind of why there's some of that footage in there and why I wanted to include all of that because.
[00:09:53] Rebecca: On many levels, you know, mother nature and kind of like the, uh, destruction and, [00:10:00] and the, the, the local people living through so much. And, um, I mean, that kind of meant that I had deeper relationships with people there and like, I kind of knew the language and got to know people more. And so then. Um, again, fast forward, long story, spent a lot of time trying to make a film that wasn't kind of working out.
[00:10:21] Rebecca: And then eventually I was like, I'm just going to make a film about Bonnet. Like she is like such a badass pioneer in her own way, because she kind of got out, you know, the dream to get sponsored, the dream that like you could live in Bali and get sponsored by Billabong, you know, for everybody, it seemed like a dream.
[00:10:37] Rebecca: So far away. And even for me as a Western kid growing up, like the idea that you would get sponsored and make a living like that. Um, you know, I quickly found out it wasn't quite the dream that you think, but at the same time, she was just so inspiring to me and she, she'd done it, you know, so I just, um, decided to, to make a film with her and it was all kind of her story and like escaping [00:11:00] and, you know, learning to surf with her four brothers and then escaping and, um, you know, getting away from.
[00:11:06] Rebecca: A potential arranged marriage with some guy that you didn't even know. It was like,
[00:11:11] Tyler: Let's, let's just make sure listeners, she didn't escape by in like harrowing way, by the way, it was, she, she was able to chart her own course. Yeah.
[00:11:26] Rebecca: Yeah, she, she's very much determined her future by getting Out of, um, out of Niasse and to Bali. And yeah, like living the dream in many ways, getting sponsored and winning lots of comps and becoming first woman, Indonesian champion, and then Asian champion and yeah, she's, she's really an inspiring, amazing person.
[00:11:49] Tyler: And that's like how the larger story came about that.
[00:11:53] Rebecca: Yeah, so, okay, so then we did this Kickstarter, and then it was like, uh, we were trying to [00:12:00] raise funds for a bigger film, and it was like, if we do this, while we do this, let's do loads of interviews, so that was the time that we were also organising, not just to film Bonnet, but to meet, uh, Kevin and, um, you know, try to also meet lots of the locals who, um, I wanted to talk to and who I'd heard stories from and about, like, The old chief and finding Sir Farmer and you know I'd heard lots of rumours of things and I wanted to find out the truth so I was really curious and it was also about using that time because I knew we would run out of money to like make the most of what we had and like really get as many interviews as possible and figure out if we had a bigger film.
[00:12:46] Tyler: So you four, four went surfing while you were there so you could get all your interviews
[00:12:50] Rebecca: I'd be such a mess if I just went so.
[00:12:57] Tyler: Typical surfer. Uh, [00:13:00] could you give like our listeners this, I mean, I gave a little bit of an overview, but I was hoping you can give a little bit more of a breakdown of this story that is a point of change so that they have some sort of grounding of what we're talking about as we go on.
[00:13:16] Rebecca: Okay, well, so Point of Change is the story that begins with, I mean, it's really the, the kind of instigation of it is Kevin Lovett and John Giesl who, um, they are searching for their perfect way. They have this, Find a perfect wave and, um, of they set off together and they're escaping, uh, sort of Vietnam, um, political climate of the seventies in, um, Australia.
[00:13:44] Rebecca: And I think it's important to give that context because, you know, they were kind of like fed up of what was happening at home and the government and all of that sort of thing. And so, um, yeah, like, I mean, to find your holy grail for that to actually [00:14:00] happen and be beyond your wildest dreams, I mean, that's what happened.
[00:14:02] Rebecca: It wasn't easy. They, you know, like, it took them a long time to find it, and like, you know, they
[00:14:08] Tyler: huge sacrifices, you know, to get there, like health, you know, uh, family, jobs, all those things, careers, they, they fully sacrificed.
[00:14:20] Rebecca: Yeah. Um, it's difficult because I don't want to do a total spoiler alert, but basically The things, you know, the thing about Finding Paradise is there's a dark side, there's a polarity with everything. And so the film sort of walks that, I think that middle ground of like always looking at both sides of everything.
[00:14:39] Rebecca: So, you know, it was amazing and it was a dream come true. And they had this moments of like the best times of their life, but then, um, there were also repercussions that they never could have foreseen, which, um, started on a very personal level. And then Um, you know, then is also, um, [00:15:00] indirectly on a, on a larger scale for the, for the community and the place.
[00:15:05] Rebecca: Um, and that's just to do with, you know, the, the fact that the Forgotten Art of Keeping a Secret, you know, that wasn't just, um, John and Kevin, it was anyone else who was there as well. Of course, you know, um, they met Peter Troy on the boat out there, which was just a like random coincidence. But he was someone who, you know, they knew that he was already this guy who was known as kind of surf pioneer and he'd, um, spread surfing to many places, including like places like Brazil and randomly he'd been to Jersey where I'm from.
[00:15:37] Rebecca: So I'm like, what the hell? Like I've heard of Peter Troy. And so it's just kind of like, Yeah, an amazing story that just captures your imagination because you're like, no way, like those, you know, those random people that you might meet on a boat and, and then, you know, the adventures that can unfold.
[00:15:56] Tyler: Oh my gosh, I mean, for them, it must have been kind of wild [00:16:00] to, like, Peter Troy was just, he was like this, the, like the swashbuckling travel surfer, you know, he has these iconic photos in the sixties, you know, when surfers weren't doing the, the dirt bag travel even, you know, and, and discovery, he was doing all that stuff and it was just, it's phenomenal.
[00:16:22] Tyler: Like, and then you just. Be on the boat and you're like, Oh, we're on the same boat with Peter Troy. I'd be like, we're on the right path. I guess, you know,
[00:16:31] Rebecca: a good sign. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, funnily enough, cause like you hear lots of stories and then I wasn't expecting that actually Peter was just having a more of a chill trip with his girlfriend, checking out the culture and stuff. He wasn't necessarily there to be like, I'm going to be a pioneer of another wave.
[00:16:52] Rebecca: He was kind of like, Oh, you know, I found loads of waves at this point.
[00:16:57] Tyler: like, yeah, whatever [00:17:00] though.
[00:17:00] Rebecca: Um, so yeah, I mean, just like, I was just fascinated. And then like, obviously. You know, it's kind of legendary, right? So I'd heard all these stories and wanted to, yeah, just get more into, like, the truth of it all and, and hear firsthand and share that story of, like, this is, this is coming directly of, like, this is people's experience rather than, uh, yeah, the rumor mill.
[00:17:25] Tyler: Well, it's, it's fascinating. So like this story to me feels like so many stories, uh, uh, cautionary tales, like, uh, if you've ever read like John Steinbeck's, The Black Pearl, or, or even like there will be blood. Like, you know, it's like a small town where. They discover some sort of valuable rich, riches that some outside force wants to behold, you know, and then all the effects that that has on that community from greed to [00:18:00] jealousy, envy, uh, you know, and, and all the, the, the kind of difficult things that go along with those riches that, that, or the, you know, with those natural resources that they have, um, um,
[00:18:13] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, to me, it was exactly like that. To me, it feels almost biblical, like, in the sense it's the Garden of Eden and, you know, like, it's just, it's not a new story, but it's like, what do you do after that? Where do you go from there? It's kind of, like, really interesting to
[00:18:29] Tyler: it's crazy, and I'm curious, like, for you, what was the initial idea for the film, and how far did you stray from that initial concept that you had when you were thinking, you know, letting it percolate almost all those years, actually, in leading up to it? And I'm curious, like, how, how that story had changed from your initial vision to what it, what it ultimately ended up as.
[00:18:57] Rebecca: So I think that, to me, [00:19:00] It's kind of like a microcosm and we can look at the story and it applies to so many other like places and things, right? It can be tourism anywhere or it can be, um, just, you know, how we treat, um, people or even like the colonial lens. Like whatever, however you look at it, it's, I wanted to kind of zoom out and have a bigger picture and look at it.
[00:19:24] Rebecca: So. That's why in the end we settled on this sort of like chapters like 70s 80s 90s so you could really see the development and you could kind of go on that journey as well so then you know like I'm very much letting the audience make up their own minds the whole way through but like through having a bigger picture we have more of a bigger idea of like you know everything that happened right so you have context.
[00:19:49] Rebecca: Um, and so that's why it ended up the way it ended up. And, you know, there were definitely times where people are like, do you really need that whole history lesson?
[00:19:58] Tyler: Okay. [00:20:00] Okay.
[00:20:12] Rebecca: walking around with our own goldfish bowl point of view, thinking we're right, and our opinion's right, and you know, and then we, we're all ethnocentric and egocentric. We can't help it, right? So then we're bumping into each other with these completely different ideas and interpretations of the same thing.
[00:20:29] Rebecca: And so, I, I just felt like if we could all zoom out and just look like maybe that would just help us to kind of figure out where we are in, in the bigger picture and where we sit and then, you know, just have a bit more of like consciousness about it all.
[00:20:45] Tyler: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because, you know, especially when you mentioned, like, we all have like our bubbles on and we have like our own idea of what's happening. And in the film, I hate to spoil this stuff, but I mean, [00:21:00] I think it's important we talk about, but like in the film, it's like Kevin, John, and then like when Kevin goes back with like, you know, his, with, uh, John's siblings, like, uh, Jan, Judy, and Bugs, um, You know, in their head, they're having a great time, you know, like this is awesome and oh, there's like a weird guy who comes by and chants at us every once in a while, or there's some weird interaction, but they don't think anything of it almost.
[00:21:30] Rebecca: Yeah,
[00:21:31] Tyler: you know, and they're thinking their memory is this kind of awesome time and getting along with locals to, for the most part. And then when, when Kevin goes back decades later, he, he talks to the locals and they're like, Yeah, you know they wanted to You know, sacrifice you and they wanted to like bury your skull underneath the bridge and that girl who went missing like yeah well we think this happened like this [00:22:00] all of a sudden he gets his whole other perspective of what's happened and then so you're you're balancing as a filmmaker you're balancing all these perspectives you have Kevin's you have the the indigenous community there but then you also have this Perspective of time and like you said pulled out like overview of the overall impact of everything as well It's it's beautifully done.
[00:22:26] Tyler: You know, it's very well done because it's it's fascinating how yeah We go to places and we're so fucking like clueless to what's happening,
[00:22:36] Rebecca: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like, um, they do reflect on it later and obviously find out more, but I mean, I just want to speak to that a little bit and it's hard when people haven't seen it, but you know, it was, it was very much like the indigenous perspective and, and yes, had quite an advanced, quite sophisticated civilization.
[00:22:57] Rebecca: They did believe in headhunting and they had this [00:23:00] before Christianity turned up, right? And told them that that was all a sin and they shouldn't do that anymore. So, you know, that was like, I only included that because the locals told me and numerous sources told me and they all insisted that this is what had happened.
[00:23:16] Rebecca: And it was, I was like really mindful and And aware that I, you know, I didn't want it to be like, this is what the Westerners thought because it wasn't like this is what the locals were like, this is what happened. This is what went down like you need to understand this. You need to tell this story. And, you know, I questioned that a lot.
[00:23:35] Rebecca: And, you know, since, since then, those people have passed some of them. And so therefore I do feel that it was important to document that and to tell that part of the story because otherwise it would have been lost. Right. But it was also just like. Um, it's, you know, like some people might say about the film about, you know, the way it's portrayed or anything, um, it's definitely, I've definitely been criticized, but I feel like you can't, if you don't understand [00:24:00] and respect a different culture, which is often indigenous cultures might not make sense to us, but that's not a reason to not respect it and listen to it.
[00:24:08] Rebecca: Right. So. What we still don't know to this day whether or not everything that is discussed is true or not And I hope that one day there will be a second chapter to this and we'll find out and and we can you know We can talk more to that but just specifically on the indigenous Part of it, you know this was very much like Niasin culture and they were very proud to share that and they wanted to Um, tell that story and share that with us.
[00:24:33] Rebecca: So, um, yeah, it was about a kind of guy who they, you know, they called him a black magic man. They called him the bird man. He was kind of feared. He was known as being somebody who had bad intention and was just kind of like a, just kind of not a good dude from how they all talked about him. And so, um, yeah.
[00:24:54] Rebecca: And so, yeah, I, I should just park it there. Cause I don't know if you [00:25:00]can
[00:25:00] Tyler: interesting because like, I think there's this tendency, uh, in Western media to portray indigenous culture as primitive. And or backwards or not as developed or whatever you you want to label it and it's so not the case like it was quite sophisticated for quite a long time before, before the surfers arrived and even way before you know the Dutch were there, you know, and imposed.
[00:25:32] Tyler: You know, they're trying to impose their control on their community, which they were able to in the history books, like able to repel a lot of the colonial attacks and invasions, uh, over the time, which speaks to how developed in advance they actually were.
[00:25:48] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, they were really powerful, strong warriors and they were like, you know, they fought for a really long time to, to, um, but they fought colonialism as long as they could.[00:26:00] Uh, but yeah, I mean, you know, from speaking to Nata, who's the sort of expert from, um, they've established in the museum to preserve.
[00:26:09] Rebecca: Um, their culture and he was like really knowledgeable and he would, he's interviewed in the film and he would share, you know, everything from how they would, um, you know, everything was about the village and it was a we and it was, it was like really interesting and amazing and the way they organized and the way that decisions that were made, they would all come together and have an assembly and.
[00:26:30] Rebecca: You know, if you were a great orator, you would be able to make the argument for your way of thinking about things. And it was like, I've heard some amazing recordings and like when I was there, you could still sense that. And there was still a feeling of that when, when people come together and they do still make some decisions about the village like that.
[00:26:48] Rebecca: And it's amazing. And I think there's a lot for us to learn from it. You know, like there often is with many, um, other cultures, you know, the idea that. Um, we are, that Westerners in any [00:27:00] way have a better system is kind of completely mad. So, you know, I'm all up learning and learning.
[00:27:08] Tyler: it's, I mean, we, we, we, we, you know, we tend to live outta harmony, unfortunately, and, and a lot of these cultures were living in harmony with everything and so. I, I'm curious, like, how much did you change in your perspectives on, on colonialism today and the effects of travel and tourism on Indigenous cultures?
[00:27:30] Tyler: Like, was there an evolution for you in the process of making this film?
[00:27:36] Rebecca: Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I started out, I was sort of like younger, naiver. I was trying to say something that I didn't necessarily know how to articulate. So I was also learning and I was educating myself and doing research as I was, as I was making it. And, you know. Obviously now so much I feel has shifted in [00:28:00] terms of our awareness.
[00:28:01] Rebecca: So I feel like it was just happening to me at the same time. I was kind of on this wave and I was kind of like checking myself as we, as I went along. And I don't think when I was younger, I really appreciated my privilege or, you know, My, my position to be able to travel and move freely and all of that kind of was only the reflection myself that I was able to look back and go like, yeah, I'm really lucky, but also like, how do we, how do we do things differently?
[00:28:30] Rebecca: Like, how do we, and how do we like look at this and, and realize, you know, and. Yeah, bring, bring more of that unconscious into our consciousness and make us kind of more aware.
[00:28:44] Tyler: What do you, like, what, first, I'm curious, like, what the, the people of NEOS thought of your film and, you know, if they've seen it. And two, I'm curious, like. And obviously no one here [00:29:00] is representing them. So I'm asking you, but you know, your interpretation of it is what are their thoughts on surfing and its effects on their community?
[00:29:10] Tyler: Do they, do they like it? And, and do they, do they have like a solution for us? Do they have like, Hey, This is how maybe things should be done in the future as opposed to this or that. I don't know. I don't know if you've gotten there with them. So first, what were their reactions to the film?
[00:29:31] Rebecca: So, okay. So firstly, we had a screening in Bali at the Bali Film Festival last year. I wasn't able to go, but we, uh, we invited the local crew. I know. Um, so they, uh, Lucinda and Bonnie and some of the NES guys were able to attend and, you know, they're, they're great. So, you know, they have been overwhelmingly positive and happy about it.
[00:29:57] Rebecca: And, and, and Bonet's been interviewed quite [00:30:00] a few times on these questions. So I just, they've kind of what she said about it. And it also depends who you talk to as of course, you know, so Bonet's happy that she had that opportunity cause it, it led to her being able to lead a different life that she wanted and be more in control of her own destiny.
[00:30:20] Rebecca: Uh, but she also feels sad about the lack of respect sometimes, or, you know, that, um, that people don't respect the nature particularly, or the culture, like, she feels that that's really important. And, I mean, it depends, you know, like, I remember having conversations with some of the older generation, and they were sad about losing their old ways to this new surf culture.
[00:30:45] Rebecca: But then, of course, there's other people who are managing to make Uh, a lot of business and sending their kids to university. And so they're like, you know, of course they're grateful, but everything's more complicated. And I think that's the thing, right? It's like, [00:31:00] it's like, it's not black and white. It's like, like everything with us, you know, it's, we can have, I think like as humans, we can hold contradicting opinions that we don't even realize we do like even within ourselves.
[00:31:13] Rebecca: So like, of course that also translates out there in the world. We live in a capitalist world. society and you know, that's Whilst that is, the, the need for money whilst that's there is gonna therefore, um, be one of the deciding factors about people's happiness and health and wealth and all those things.
[00:31:31] Rebecca: So, yeah, like just like pretty much most people, they just want their family to be able to have a good life and all of those things. So, yeah, so it's kind of a mix to be honest. You know, you'll meet someone who's like, we want it to be like Bali, we want loads of tourists, we want McDonald's, we want, And then you'll meet someone else who's like, I wish all the tourists would bugger off or like, we only want a really small amount, like, or we want to control it.
[00:31:57] Rebecca: So I mean, I'm being kind of flippant, but to talk to like the [00:32:00] bigger, the bigger question, like, yes, they have, they, there is, there has been discussions and there are like local kind of custodians who are the younger surfers who are coming up who are sort of, of that second or third generation who do want to find a way to come together and protect the environment.
[00:32:17] Rebecca: The point and look after it in that way. So, you know, what that looks like in the future, if there's like a small tax or something, you know, I think that they are looking at those options and they will decide themselves about the way forward, but it's really good that they're having those, those conversations.
[00:32:35] Tyler: I, I, um, I feel like it's, it's interesting cause I think like they, there's this feeling of like one, every light casts a shadow, right? Or every candle cast shadow. So yeah, you can, you can have dual, you know, you can be like, I like this, but these are the negative repercussions that come with it. And some people are willing to live with that.
[00:32:58] Tyler: And some people [00:33:00] aren't. Uh, I was curious, like if you feel like. There was a hunger amongst some of the younger people even to rediscover some of their history and cultural practices, minus the headhunting. Um, you
[00:33:19] Rebecca: there's a pride in it, but, um, it's, it's, again, it's just a little bit complicated in the sense that, you know, Indonesia already has lots of different, um, tribes and different, um, cultures. you know, people of different cultures. So just within the Lagundi Bay, there's, in Lagundi, there's a Muslim, um, community.
[00:33:41] Rebecca: And then on the point, Seraki and Botuhili, they're more, uh, Christian. So like, you know, they own pigs and the pigs are very much part of cult, their culture, and they would kill a pig. And, you know, And that would be like a celebratory thing, and so it's not like as straightforward as that. Sometimes people are [00:34:00] a bit ashamed of the past, like they've been told that that was like sinful and they're really Christian now so they wouldn't even want to discuss it.
[00:34:06] Rebecca: And then other people who maybe, um, don't necessarily have a big religion would be more open to saying like, this was, um, uh, history and we're proud of it. We want to, we want to embrace it. And there are like lots of traditional songs and traditions that they do in the village that they still honor. And, um, you know, they still make time for and respect those.
[00:34:28] Rebecca: And, um, yeah, there's lots of those around the family and, and cultural sort of. Um, yeah, traditions around the way that they run the village and with, um, the politics and things like that, that they still do. Yeah, I
[00:34:44] Tyler: the film? Was it difficult to get them to speak? Um, You know, truthfully or without any fear of repercussion of what they were talking about and how did you gain that trust? Obviously you spent a lot of [00:35:00] time there, but yeah, I'm just kind of curious. Like that, that sort of process, what that's like.
[00:35:06] Tyler: It's difficult, I think, to get people to speak. I run a podcast. It's not easy. And those that want to speak, sometimes you don't want to speak to them, you know? So, but I want to speak to you by the way, but sorry.
[00:35:24] Rebecca: I agree. It's fun. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Because yeah, you'll know what this is like. Maybe you want to speak to somebody, like, I don't know, somebody like Bonny, for example, she's not someone who is a person of a lot of words. So she's like an amazing athlete and when you're with her you can feel how she's feeling and I can tell, I could like translate for you certain things and I understand enough Indonesian in the ASTA that we would be talking and having good understanding but She's not somebody who will articulate a lot of things in a way that [00:36:00] even sometimes I was hoping for the, for interviews and things.
[00:36:02] Rebecca: Um, and then there'd be other people who may be, you know, this is just like anywhere, like they'll have a lot to say, but most of it's bullshit. So you're just like, okay, great. Like, how do we sift through that? So I, I, Found that I was really lucky in the sense that I have spent a long time in Indonesia.
[00:36:21] Rebecca: I've been back many times, so I had enough understanding of the language. And people had seen me sometimes through quite traumatic experiences in the past that they knew me and they trusted me. So that was a shortcut to being able to say, like, you know, this is what I'm doing and trying to explain, and they would believe me, I don't think I could have done it if I was just kind of flying in and out, you know, on a short trip or something like that.
[00:36:45] Tyler: No, no, uh, and it takes, takes time, it takes time to get people loosen up and like, particularly to discuss like sensitive topics, you know, like, yeah, just getting some of them to talk about, you know, [00:37:00] like the Birdman and, you know, and I think we should even, you know, I don't want to spoil it too much, but one of the cat, one of the people there, this woman, Ingrid, went missing.
[00:37:10] Tyler: And there's, to get people to open up about that type of situation where it was very questionable about where she went and what happened to her body and all this sort of stuff, um, you know, so it's, I imagine it's hard to get them to, you have to go back a few times to get people comfortable enough to say what you need, what they should, what you want them to say, I guess, or get them to open up the way you want them to.
[00:37:37] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean the thing about that was, it was Safama who was the guy who was on the point, who was the first person that Kevin and John met, he was the one who told me that story first, and he was very adamant about it, and he told me a couple of times, and he was, You know, he really wanted to know what had happened, as if, like, I might know, I might be able to give him some answers.
[00:37:58] Rebecca: So that was kind of the [00:38:00] first decision of, like, oh, maybe I need to explore this more, because, because it's come from him, and he, and it kind of shocked me as well, because I was like, oh, I wasn't actually expecting this. Like, he was very coming with it. So yeah, there were things like that where it was like, okay, then I felt that I had an obligation to include it and to explore and try and investigate myself and try and find out what happened.
[00:38:23] Rebecca: Um, and to this day we still don't know. And I, I have had some emails and some people who've got in touch who said they might know where she is, but then I haven't had any more than that. So I'm still investigating that and I'm still trying to find out. So, you know, like. Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of still a mystery and I really hope she's out there and if she is alive and well, I'd love to know, but equally she might not want to be disturbed, you know, so it's a really delicate and tricky thing because I just want to know she's alive and well, or if not, you know, that she made it home safely.
[00:38:57] Rebecca: So,
[00:38:58] Tyler: For listeners, there is this, this [00:39:00] woman, her name was, uh, Ingrid. She arrived while, uh, Kevin was there with, uh, you know, the three siblings of John and they were camping out and they showed up with, and she showed up with her boyfriend, Stuart, who took on a Rambo like persona from what I've read, you know, very kind of went off the rails a little or went tropo.
[00:39:22] Tyler: And, um, And then he left, and then she was with them, and then they all got really sick, uh, with cholera, I believe, and she decided to go to a local hospital while they all decided to leave, and she was never heard from again, basically. And then, when Kevin returned, he was told that the Birdman potentially had gotten a hold of her and used her as a sacrifice.
[00:39:49] Rebecca: Yeah, and that sounds so like, I mean it is, it's horrific and it sounds so horrific, but like, that's kind of what they were saying was. That was [00:40:00] his job, like, being this black magic man, and they were building something, like, they had this tradition of, uh, you know, finding, uh, people to put under, um, the headstone of, uh, like, the entrances to villages and things, and that was like an ancient tradition, which, you know, I hope is not true, and I hope that is not what happened to Ingrid, but, uh, to this day, we still don't know, and I'm, and I hope we find out soon.
[00:40:25] Rebecca: Maybe after
[00:40:25] Tyler: Has anyone checked with the ex boyfriend? Because I have a feeling it's Stuart with the, potentially, instead.
[00:40:35] Rebecca: Oh
[00:40:35] Tyler: Jealous lover wronged, maybe? You know? Just.
[00:40:40] Rebecca: who narrows Tyler? Like,
[00:40:42] Tyler: might have a new mystery documentary on your
[00:40:44] Rebecca: I feel like there's gonna be a true crime, um, so, you know, part two is coming.
[00:40:52] Tyler: Um, I guess in like the, the other thing I wanted to discuss is like. You know, when I read [00:41:00] Kevin's article in Surfer's Journal, this was like 98, and at that time, the film had left off, there was a pro surf contest there, there was, um, you know, and everything had kinda turned to shit, it seemed like, like, uh, girls were being Prostituted out.
[00:41:21] Tyler: You had pimps, you had all this like gambling and other things that were rather unhealthy for society, I think. And it was drug abuse, alcoholism, things that weren't there before. And then you have around 2004 and 2005, two tsunamis, kind of back to back, almost wipe everything clean. And I'm curious like.
[00:41:47] Tyler: Is that, would you consider that a turning point for that community? Did they come together? Do you feel that they came together after that and said, right, we need to change the direction of how [00:42:00] we were developing and develop it in a better way, or do you think, do you feel like it's kept in that progression still of like things kind of going more Western, but not so healthy in, in, in certain ways?
[00:42:18] Rebecca: So that's a really good question and I think what happened at the beginning of the time straight after the tsunami is there was a lot of that, that good intention, like we can rebuild in a way that we want, we can do all of those things. Then just what eyewitnesses. myself was the NGOs that were there were not, were there to rebuild, but they were not listening to the community.
[00:42:42] Rebecca: So the problem was there was a lot of corruption. So like little buildings were being built, which were like made with really crappy, You know, shitty sand, like really bad mix. I'm not a builder, but you know, like just terrible cement, like really thin walls, they, and everyone's [00:43:00] terrified that like, we've had loads of earthquakes.
[00:43:01] Rebecca: We're not going to go inside that thing. It's a death trap. So no one wanted to live in these that were like being built and loads of money was being spent on them. So it was like, That was just what was started happening was, you know, just all again came down to money and it was like money was being siphoned off and people felt again, they weren't determining their own future in terms of how they wanted to do because if they had had more say in that and been able to, um, realize it the way they wanted, I think it would have been like, let's go back to more traditional buildings.
[00:43:29] Rebecca: The wood has lasted all these years, like what am I supposed to do with like the King's house days? It's so amazing. It's made with this, with this amazing huge wood. There's not a single nail. You're like, how did they construct this? Like the architecture is amazing. It's, I think it's like a UNESCO, um, site.
[00:43:48] Rebecca: It's like, like it, they're like Spanish galleons, the ship, like the way that they're built, they're really very, um, Very, uh, special architecture and really amazingly done with very, you know, highly skilled, [00:44:00] talented carpenters, and, uh, Yeah, so you're like, well, they didn't want these crappy little concrete, um, Cases, you know, they're like, what the fuck are they?
[00:44:08] Rebecca: We don't want to live in those. So basically, I mean, just to say, like, I guess it's a bit like how people felt after COVID, right? Some people felt like, we're coming out of this and we're going to do things differently now, and we're going to change, and it's an opportunity for us to live differently, and, and then it's just not, like, it's actually You know, and I think it was a similar thing in the sense that what happened is then it becomes a bit of a like,
[00:44:32] Tyler: try
[00:44:33] Rebecca: for like, I want that land and I want to live there and I'm going to paint my place closer to the point and I'm going to just find that little bit further forward because I want a better view or I'm going to, you know, it just becomes like that.
[00:44:43] Rebecca: And that's just out of the fact that I don't know if it's human nature or just the, you know, more just like,
[00:44:49] Tyler: it's Western scarcity mindset. It, no, really, like I, I had in my last episode, you know, someone talking about decolonizing oneself and what he noticed about [00:45:00] Western. Yeah.
[00:45:02] Rebecca: Yeah.
[00:45:02] Tyler: And he talks about like this scarcity mindset that I think a lot of Western cultures tend to have, like, it's all or nothing, it's a zero sum game.
[00:45:13] Tyler: Or, you know, or like,
[00:45:14] Rebecca: We get sold everything. We're not good enough. We're not good enough. We need more because we're not pretty enough. We're not, we're not rich enough. We don't have the best of this and that. And it's the way we keep getting sold shit, right? So that then we keep in the machine because we're all stuck in this system.
[00:45:28] Rebecca: And it's hard because when you're inside it, like how you, you know, to look out of it and look back in might help us, but how do we do that because we're all in it, we're all trapped. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:42] Tyler: that's, I mean, the thing is, like, uh, unfortunately, we as a Western society, like, probably should not do anything almost, right? Like, like, especially with, with regards to, like, You know, Neos, these [00:46:00] villages and these other places like I've over the last few years, like I've really become suspect of all NGOs and what their value is and what they bring to the table.
[00:46:13] Tyler: Actually, are they really there for the people or are they there to? You know, feed someone's ego or someone's need to feel purposeful instead of, you know, actually helping people, you know, like that's, that's something I now like really question, you know, what, what role they should be playing in these communities and how, you know, they're being dictated to.
[00:46:40] Tyler: No, we have to build these resources. We have to build small, you know, apartments, you know, out of cement instead of traditional housing or whatever it is like a, it's just, yeah, we, we think we know, and we don't, and maybe we should just back off a little when it comes to that. And then
[00:46:58] Rebecca: Yeah, but the problem is [00:47:00] that intelligent people know they don't know anything, right? And unfortunately, it's the ones, the people who are making decisions are often, you know, very set on that they are right about things that they don't necessarily know about and therefore we end up with this, these situations.
[00:47:15] Rebecca: But I mean, I do know a lot of really good NGOs that are grassroots that do really good work. Things with communities. And I think, well, I always worry about saying things like that because I think it's important to do, to help and to still have that mindset, but equally, you know, the colonial thing is true.
[00:47:32] Rebecca: Like, I had to check myself on that. Like, did I think I was like a white savior back in those days? Like, probably when I was young, I thought I was helping and, you know, like, well, I don't know. There's a part that was like, if I don't do anything, maybe nothing will happen. So I want to do something, but equally like, why, what am I getting out of this?
[00:47:51] Rebecca: I'm feeling like, oh, I'm a really good person now. Like, I'm trying to like be a recovering Catholic and beat that out of myself. You know, [00:48:00] just the guilt and shame about everything. I don't know. It's just, it's just interesting. And this is the thing is like, we can, we just have to look inside and, And I think change comes from us becoming more aware.
[00:48:11] Rebecca: And we're trying to change so much. It's like, what change do we want to be part of? And how can we, you know, like just do the best you can until you know better and then just do better. I think it's Maya Angelou who says that. And I don't mean that in a preachy way. I just mean like, that's all we do, right?
[00:48:26] Rebecca: We just, we learn a bit and then we're like, Oh shit. I thought that was right. But actually slightly, slightly off course. Let's just like move over here a bit more or. you know, whatever it is.
[00:48:37] Tyler: It really, yeah, it's, it's interesting. And I appreciate you saying like, look, there, there are some great NGOs as well. And that, that people should not be shy of helping out either. But I, I guess it's interesting because I talked to Tara Ruttenberg a few months ago about, um, the, Colonialism and we discussed like the best thing best solution is basically letting the [00:49:00] locals decide what to do with the resources as opposed to outside influences, trying to tell them no, you need to build water and need to build this and that in there.
[00:49:11] Tyler: They know. better than you what they need for the most part and and we that's always the trap we kind of fall into a lot of times where we think we know best just because maybe we developed a fucking iphone or whatever you know and we think oh we should you know that's like saying every billionaire should they're the smartest people and it's not the case you know it's
[00:49:33] Rebecca: No,
[00:49:34] Tyler: yeah, no.
[00:49:35] Rebecca: Completely agree. Yeah. Being good at making money doesn't necessarily mean you're, you know, good at everything.
[00:49:43] Tyler: not. Definitely not. You know, it's, it is interesting though, how we, how there's been these multiple waves of, of volunteer work over time and, you know, You know, going from like the Peace [00:50:00] Corps, you know, in the U. S. and sending people abroad and trying to give influence and help quote unquote help people and, you know, and then every other NGO afterwards and some of them are vanity projects for very rich people and some of them are really helpful and slim and lean and work really well.
[00:50:20] Tyler: So it's always. Super hard to tell who, what's good, what's not when you're in the middle of it.
[00:50:26] Rebecca: No, totally.
[00:50:28] Tyler: And, and as a, as a local person, I imagine how fucking hard would it be to trust, who to trust, from the outside giving you advice.
[00:50:37] Rebecca: Yeah, completely. And you know, they've been used to having loads of different people turn up and tell them all sorts of weird and wonderful things from, you know, if you come and pray here and everything's forgiven and you can do this, to like, I, yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard because it's like, I don't know.
[00:50:55] Rebecca: Some, one of the things I think about now is like the kind of state [00:51:00] of the world and like, so Kevin and John were leaving because of the political climate and You know, like, we as Westerners, when we travel, we don't realise what we bring with us. And I feel like there's, there's kind of going to be a new wave of this, with kids just being like, we hate our governments, we don't agree with anything they're doing.
[00:51:20] Rebecca: You know, not in our name, or that kind of thing. And then you've kind of You know, take off and then, yeah, we're so lucky and privileged that we can do that. And we could go to another country and we could live really cheap and we could, you know, like there's, there's a lot of that that is happening already.
[00:51:35] Rebecca: Like whatever you want to call that. And it's like, we're, we're still not like appreciating the bigger picture of like acknowledging our privilege and our position. Yeah.
[00:51:48] Tyler: it's, it's, it's basically, you know, um, Gentrification on a, on a global scale, you know, where, you know, people with privilege can move somewhere [00:52:00] cheaper and, but then that really offsets the dynamic of the local people there, you know, or even like I noticed with lots of surf places, it's, it's always an outsider who came in, bought land and then hires locals. And then runs a surf camp or some sort of retreat. And really, again, it's not the, and they'll say, well, we're hiring locals and we're giving them money, but really it's not them in control of the actual situation. And they're losing out on those opportunities.
[00:52:32] Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, it's, it's like, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? I think with NIAS, they've managed to stay in control of, um, the point and, and even though they've had like Western investment, there's a good lore I think that, you know, the, the locals must own the land. It's their name on the And I think that's a great thing.
[00:52:56] Rebecca: And, you know, I think there are movements to say things [00:53:00] like, well, if we want to control the amount of people serving or other things, we should look at changing that, but I actually think it's great that the locals continue to, to own it and to be in charge of that. The destiny of the point. Um, and yeah, I mean, honestly, just to go back to the point about, as Westerners, I mean, it's outrageous because we are, you know, we are causing, uh, people in other parts of the world to lose their homes, their livelihoods, their everything.
[00:53:29] Rebecca: And then we have the nerve to say they're not welcome on our land, whilst we're often, like, it's disgusting. It is, like, we, we,
[00:53:39] Tyler: It's my, my favorite when people are like, I'm going to Mexico, but fuck all the immigrants coming over, you know, you're just like, wait, you're not.
[00:53:47] Rebecca: yeah,
[00:53:48] Tyler: So you can go there, but they can't come here. And I know, I know it's so backwards in some ways. Um, yeah, it, it's [00:54:00] fascinating. And I, I, I feel like there are some models out there that are interesting to look at, like, um, You know, there's, uh, someone in Simba, you know, who has, you know, uh, protected, you know, surf spot and limited the amount of guests that can come there.
[00:54:20] Tyler: And, you know, they, they donate a significant portion of the money back into the community as well. Um, and I believe that the community has a lot of say on that development, as you know, as well. So. You know, Tavarua was like that for a while where you would limit the surf number surfers to an area and I wonder like if that sort of model could work at like NEOS even where it's like, hey, we're filled up, you know, like we have enough people here and we can't handle that much more like, and we're seeing this like.
[00:54:52] Tyler: What in Barcelona? We've seen this. We're seeing it in, in Western cities as well, where people are just fed up with the over tourism of [00:55:00] everything and how it's really affecting local people everywhere. And it's not just. You know, the global South it's, it's here in Western, Western society as well.
[00:55:11] Rebecca: Yeah, no, I mean absolutely and I don't blame people for feeling like that like it's it's not fair is it and Yeah, I think um, what was I gonna say?
[00:55:24] Tyler: Got the maximum surfers at a surf spot.
[00:55:28] Rebecca: I guess I guess the only thing that freaks me out about that idea is like you might just end up with like, you know It's only the billionaires that are surfing and it's like, I don't know, Zuckerberg ties up or I don't know. It's like, these guys can surf and none of you guys are allowed. You can all find out.
[00:55:45] Rebecca: It's like, I just don't, like, that's my idea of hell of what surfing looks like. I like the way the ocean belongs to all of us and it's democratic and you paddle out and it doesn't matter who you are on land. Like, you know, it's just like, we're all [00:56:00] equal out there and you know, like it's, yeah, I'm all into like, Etiquette and taking turns and all of that.
[00:56:06] Rebecca: I think that's beautiful when people are like that. And that's what I want to see. And I just wish that we could do it respectfully. You're going to
[00:56:14] Tyler: think Neos is a perfect place to test out this one idea. I have, it's a bit crazy. Um, you can, you can share it with them, but I think because Neos is such a mechanical wave, it breaks in the same, almost the same spot every time. There should be like. 15 yards out from the break, like a floating bar and you paddle up to it.
[00:56:36] Tyler: You grab a ticket and then you have a Gatorade or a drink or a power bar, or you watch,
[00:56:43] Rebecca: gets really drugged.
[00:56:44] Tyler: well, you can do that too. Or, you know, or it doesn't have to be alcoholic, but it could be a place where you just sit and chill and wait your turn. And then they let it, let people out into the lineup in groups instead, sort of like, uh, the wave pool scenario, but it makes it a little bit more [00:57:00] enjoyable waiting.
[00:57:01] Rebecca: I'm not down with it.
[00:57:02] Tyler: No,
[00:57:03] Rebecca: No, I'm not down with it. Sorry.
[00:57:07] Tyler: that's the German in me trying to put order in everything, you know,
[00:57:10] Rebecca: you're trying to organize everybody. No, I don't want it. I want it to be a free for all. No, I just think it gets sorted out itself. Like, let's just keep it really human and organic
[00:57:22] Tyler: Or, or we change our perception and we just all share waves and that the whole goal is to see how many people we can fit on one wave instead of
[00:57:30] Rebecca: Yeah. Oh my god. Party wave. Until it gets big and nice and then that sorts everybody out. For sure. For sure.
[00:57:40] Tyler: I I, uh, I'm also really curious, you were able to get interviews with, like, people like Dick Cool, Thornton Philander, uh, Eric Ader, and these are people who exploited the place, you know, they, you know, although Thornton seems to, in the, in your movie, [00:58:00] kind of sidestep that a little bit, like, oh, it wasn't me who wanted to name it, it was Dick Cool or whatever, but, you know, all these people kind of, you know, Played a role in, in, in, in exposing the spot.
[00:58:12] Tyler: And I found it really interesting. Like Eric Ader, who's a phenomenal photographer. And he had this remark and it was really interesting. And it was like, he, he basically kind of wished he hadn't published the photos and the location of the wave. But at the same time, he then said, but if it weren't me, it would be someone else who would do it, you know, that sort of mindset.
[00:58:37] Rebecca: Yeah, I think, I think it's Dick who says that, like he said, yeah, like someone else would have been along. I mean, I think that, you know, one thing is, you don't, you don't know, like no one knew surfing was gonna get so huge, right? So I think it was like, I guess the way we've been, like people have maybe been with like Instagram or something, like I'm just sharing this spot, not realizing, like this is gonna lead to [00:59:00] the destruction of this place.
[00:59:01] Rebecca: Turning up to get a photo there, like, you know, it's just the way. You never know what's going to happen as a result of certain things that you do. So basically I just, I just think like, even though I'm kind of calling them out on it, I just feel like it's also just part of the history and the story and they never knew.
[00:59:19] Rebecca: And I'm not saying like, Oh, they're totally innocent. I think they just felt like, well, the next guy's going to do it if I don't. And, you know, it was, it was interesting for me to like get the guys to all talk about that because, you know, each time you kind of have to persuade them that
[00:59:36] Tyler: and they're hesitant. I'm sure they're like don't want to totally take responsibility For it either, you know,
[00:59:43] Rebecca: and I, I really appreciate and I'm grateful to them all for like, being honest and, you know, opening up and just saying it like it is, like that's the, that's the thing. It's like, um, because they kind of knew that I was going to do that. So then it's like, well, [01:00:00] I'm just telling you what, what, what happened, but equally.
[01:00:03] Rebecca: Uh, yeah, like basically, I, this is my, this is my take on it. And so that's also what I'm doing in the film is just showing lots of different people's opinions. And, you know, like the locals perspective and then, you know, different outsiders coming along. But they, you know, when they're taking a really beautiful, stunning photograph of something that they just feel like is really amazing, they didn't necessarily know.
[01:00:26] Rebecca: And I, and I think genuinely, I don't know, but I, I mean, From what Thornton said to me, he didn't know that, like, they were going to name the spot and be like, this is where you get here and all this sort of stuff. So that's part of it. But equally, like, you know, it's 45, 50 years ago. So it's like, so much has changed.
[01:00:43] Rebecca: And we've come such a long way. I just don't think there's any way they would have known then that this is how it would all pan out, you know. Um,
[01:00:49] Tyler: it's funny how we in today's climate I feel like we have this interesting view of history where many of us want to project [01:01:00] Today's ethics on to people of the past and you just can't because they didn't know better. There was no Yeah, like those guys didn't know that surfing would be huge or that it would get out of control
[01:01:15] Rebecca: they were talking to a small community of like minded travelers who would be respectful and maybe seek it out, but they didn't have any idea it was gonna go crazy, you know.
[01:01:27] Tyler: who knew, you know, like we would have like so many flights or such tourism buildup or that society, the world would get so much smaller with it, with each innovation, you know, and making it, you know, more connected and more, you know, networked to a certain extent. And I think it's. Yeah, like we shouldn't judge them at all.
[01:01:48] Tyler: Like we shouldn't judge them. I think the people you could judge maybe are the ones who maybe have acted out of greed in the past and wanted to own certain land or, or, [01:02:00]you know, monetize it, uh, to, to a point of other people's detriment. You know, and I, this is, this is, Speaking generally, not to NEOS, but like, there's other parts of Indonesia where there have been people from the outside coming in, buying up the land, and then utilizing it just to enrich themselves and not the people around them.
[01:02:20] Tyler: You know, those types of things that have happened. And, uh, of course, like
[01:02:25] Rebecca: And I would say that I think there is a responsibility on Western And like say big businesses, for example, anyone going there to run a competition or something like that, like make sure that the locals are getting the benefit, like make sure it's not going in just one pocket. Like I think that's part of the responsibility of making sure that you're, you know, engaging with the local stakeholders, you're talking to them, you're making sure they have a voice, and that the benefit of what you're doing is Is, um, reaching them all and they have part of that, that, um, yeah, [01:03:00] defining what that's going to look like.
[01:03:02] Tyler: I guess I was curious then, like you, so you took this non judgmental tone with the film. You know, it was, you let everyone speak and have their say. And you mentioned earlier how some of the producers wanted more of a commentary on it. And, and how, and I'm curious, like how difficult was it for you not to put your thumb on the scale almost and just let The story breathe in itself and not put your own, uh, voice onto it.
[01:03:34] Tyler: Even though you, you directed and there's obviously your fingerprint there. Like you took this nonjudgmental tone throughout the whole film, but there's definitely a message, but it's not coming from you. It's coming from the people.
[01:03:48] Rebecca: Yeah, I think, I think I hadn't seen much in, um, certainly in surf documentaries where you heard from locals and what their perspective was on everything. So that's why I really [01:04:00] wanted it to be about, um, hearing their voice and their take on it all. Um, and then, yeah, I mean, I just, I feel like there's a lot of very strong documentaries that are making this sort of campaign documentaries and they're making an impact.
[01:04:17] Rebecca: And I just felt like I. I don't think that I necessarily know what the answer is because I don't think it's as simple or straightforward and I feel like what's better is if we all, and it sounds so like hippie and I don't even mean it like that, but you know, like, if we all just start and like meditate and have a little look inside and, but it, it kind of is that that's the thing that needs to change is like, if we just become more aware, we will change anyway, because we're going to be like, hang on, maybe, maybe it's not that fair.
[01:04:50] Rebecca: Like, okay, maybe I don't fit in. Yeah, I want to leave my big fat western footprint as Peter Reeves says, you know, like it's more about That I mean the only thing that I've [01:05:00] found in recent times that I feel like speaks to I guess one of the things that I felt is like, um There's a movement for the rights of nature and I think like that's the kind of thing that is It's interesting for us to think about it's like if, if, um, nature has a right to exist without us just taking everything from it and it just only being about what we can go and get and, you know, I, it's my holiday and I've got to have a good time.
[01:05:25] Rebecca: It's all about me. It's like, I get it because we work really hard and we deserve, I deserve my holiday, right? But like I guess if we go back to the beginnings of like this, again, like sounds really preachy and I don't mean it like this, but like the idea of a holiday was like, you know, it's a holy thing.
[01:05:41] Rebecca: It was a sacred thing. It was like, we're going to go somewhere and we're not going to bring loads of stuff with us. And we're going to just, it's about the experience. It's about the journey. And I wonder if there'll be a shift more back towards that kind of style of travel and everything. At some point.
[01:05:54] Tyler: Yeah. I mean, it's, there is no, I think for, for us, like [01:06:00] the only solution really is to listen, be better listeners. I think that's really probably a crux of a lot of our problems is that we're not listening to each other. Like we're, we're hearing people, but we may not be listening and, and trying to really digest what people need.
[01:06:19] Tyler: And that's what causes a lot of the conflict, I think, you know, and like, like you said, we can't just go into a place and try to help save, save the local people, we have to listen to what they need and hear from here, what they need, and then you can act instead and let them be in charge of it instead of taking charge of things.
[01:06:41] Tyler: So I think that's really. An important lesson we, we need to learn. And especially with travel, I don't know if we'll be going back to this light travel of the, of like the seventies. I mean, there will always be people who do that. I think so much [01:07:00] infrastructure in travel now. There's so much dependency on it too, to a certain extent.
[01:07:06] Tyler: And I wonder like how we give better control over that for the local people, as opposed to us outsiders. Uh
[01:07:22] Rebecca: I was going to say before as well about this was like, so yeah, it's kind of like holding that nuance. Cause I feel like everything, especially at the moment, like everything's trying to divide us, right? Like everything's like black or white. You think this, I think that, like every, everything is geared towards dividing us.
[01:07:38] Rebecca: Um, Um, actually there's this big gray field that we all live in, like in the middle, like Rumi says, where you, you know, that's where we live, like we, none of us are like perfect and whichever like side in inverted commas you want to be on, on any issue, it's kind of like just so irrelevant really. And then like the, the idea that when, you know, we're so complicated, the world's complicated, [01:08:00] it's like there's, let's just hold that nuance and let's hold the fact that, that the, you know, that there are.
[01:08:05] Rebecca: Polarities and that's okay and we can like maybe then find a way to sort of work through it and there isn't this like one size fits all Model, and I think the main thing about travel is just like understanding our position as a visitor like we're a guest So how can we just acknowledge that and then just be aware of our background and sort of?
[01:08:26] Rebecca: Settler colonial lineage potentially and how can we then have a holiday where we maybe just consider that looking more into like, can we have a cultural exchange? Can we like make sure the locals are benefiting? Can we, um, you know, just, just make sure our impact isn't going to be, uh, detrimental. And if, and if there's a way to be more regenerative, like, can we, I don't know, plant some trees or whatever it is, like, I, Just like whatever that version is for you, that's cool.
[01:08:52] Rebecca: But like, maybe we just have more awareness and we try to do it in that way a bit more.
[01:08:58] Tyler: And, just not be a [01:09:00] obnoxious tourist as well, where it's like, I wanted this, what is this? I don't eat this, blah blah blah. You know, like,
[01:09:07] Rebecca: Yeah. And the Brits are the worst for that. Like I was, you know,
[01:09:11] Tyler: think Americans might be, uh, we might be able to top that a little bit.
[01:09:17] Tyler: Uh, just ever so slightly. Heh heh
[01:09:22] Rebecca: was recently in the Canary Islands and I was just shocked at like, you know, the Sun newspaper and they're like selling the English breakfast. I'm like, why? What the hell? Like you come all this way and that's what you want to experience. It's just, it's nuts really.
[01:09:36] Tyler: Well, sometimes, every once in a while, a creature of comfort is okay, you know? I was just in China, and like, I ate a lot of local food, and it was awesome, but I was craving some of, something familiar too, so I get it, to a certain extent, but not every day, right? Like, you don't want to have English breakfast every day, you know?
[01:09:58] Tyler: You want to have like a [01:10:00] local cuisine that they would have in the Canaries or wherever you're traveling to.
[01:10:05] Rebecca: Yeah. You've got to experience it.
[01:10:09] Tyler: Did you get Paul Oakenfold to come on board and help produce and make music for the film?
[01:10:18] Rebecca: So Paul was a good friend of one of the producers and that's how that happened. Like he was just like, why don't we ask him? And then he was straight away like, yep, would love to, um, it was during COVID. So, you know, we were never like in a studio together. It was all online. And then we discussed like, um, I sent him some local music that I'd recorded as the locals playing like the drum things.
[01:10:44] Rebecca: And then he was like, Really keen to incorporate that and so yeah, just kind of developed from there and then he ended up doing five tracks, which was great
[01:10:55] Tyler: The soundtrack is amazing. And it's like, does he surf? Does, does, does [01:11:00]he have any connection to surfing
[01:11:01] Rebecca: No, like he's a real London boy and he's a real clubber and it was more like getting the beat for the big waves and stuff and
[01:11:11] Tyler: That must, you must have been pretty chuffed and stoked when you're like Paul Oakenfold making the soundtrack. It's
[01:11:17] Rebecca: Well, I'm definitely a kid of that era. Like I went to cream, I was in Liverpool, like he was one of those like superstar DJs in that time. So it was definitely a part of me that was like, Oh, that's, that's cool. You know, like, but equally I was kind of like, we ha we have so much amazing music on the film.
[01:11:37] Rebecca: Like Steven Warburg's amazing. He's like an Academy award winning composer. And then Richard Norris, who's like. He's kind of a legend as well. And he was part of the grid and then he, he does loads of different bands and he's time and space machine. And yeah, so I felt like we were spoilt for choice in the end, but that was really hard because as well, like we had so many tracks and you [01:12:00] know, like music is so important, but then you'd have this track that you're really attached to and then you're like, we can't afford that.
[01:12:06] Rebecca: It's like, they want, I don't know, 50 grand or something. We're like, we can't. We can't do it, so yeah, there's a lot of that that happened before we found Paul.
[01:12:15] Tyler: What's been, then, like, the, the main criticism of the film now, like, that you've gotten? Like, what's been some of the things that you've listened, had to listen to, uh, you know, from people, and, and their responses to the film? Both positive and negative, I
[01:12:32] Rebecca: The main thing was the, um, the indigenous community, like I think one of the Guardian reviews was like, oh, it's, it's silly, and, and yeah, that kind of pissed me off, to be honest, just because I'm like, well, you can't say we should respect the indigenous people, and we should listen to them, and we should give them a voice, and, right?
[01:12:52] Rebecca: You know, and honor that and then at the same time completely dismiss it as silly. 'cause you can't imagine thinking like that. So that's such a, [01:13:00] again, like Western perspective. So, I mean, I know, I know why. Um, but I think, you know, the, the under the thing is about it is it wasn't just a flippant quick thing.
[01:13:14] Rebecca: It took a lot of time and consideration and it was a serious amount of research that went into it before we. We decided to include it and it was because it came from the local community and they wanted to Tell that part of the story and have that included that it became important to include it in the narrative
[01:13:33] Tyler: In how good did it feel to get it seen the film you like it must have it because this is a long journey. This is a really long journey actually to make this and throw COVID in the middle of that too.
[01:13:49] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean it's weird because it's like it's still not fully out Like it's a weird thing of like letting go of your baby out into the world and then like hoping people take care of it And also like understand it [01:14:00] and you know It reaches people that will I feel like there's an audience out there that this is meant to reach and I just want to try and reach them.
[01:14:08] Rebecca: So I guess it's like, yeah, it felt amazing to get it out, but it's still like, it's like you climb a mountain to finish a film, right? And then you don't realize there's a whole other mountain range. See when you get to the top, you're like, Oh shit, like I thought we were there. And it's like, Oh no, like there's a whole other part of it, which is getting it out into the world.
[01:14:27] Rebecca: So yeah, I hope to have news on that soon and be like, this is where you'll be able to see it. And all of that kind of thing. Um, we're still touring festivals. We're still having lots of discussions about them. And, um, Like we have the producers and people are discussing like distribution deals in different territories and different things.
[01:14:45] Rebecca: And yeah, like I just, you know, I'm like, come on already. Like, I just want to get it out there and get on with like, get it moving on to the next thing and making some more films. Like that was kind of my dream is to continue, be able to continue to make films and [01:15:00] tell stories.
[01:15:01] Tyler: Did any, have you heard from anyone from the surf industry at all or anyone like that, you know, either in support of this or criticize it? I'm just curious like what the surf industry's embrace of this is because it, it feels like a lot of times the surf industry doesn't really embrace films like this that are thought provoking.
[01:15:20] Tyler: But I, I am always curious, like if you've heard from anyone or, or have had any. Any reach with that at all, at all. Like I don't even see a lot of surf, uh, like tracks or stab or any of them. They haven't really covered it, which I find kind of amazing to be honest.
[01:15:40] Rebecca: Yeah, so I'm talking to those guys at the moment. I think there will be something soon, and it's just, we're just figuring it out because Yeah, like we haven't kind of got the whole thing figured out for Oz yet, but obviously, you know, it'd be amazing to Do something with those guys. And I would like very [01:16:00] much to like, you know, engage with the surf media about it.
[01:16:04] Rebecca: And, but I, yeah, I, I agree. Like it's the thing is there's just so much content, you know, and there's so many new films all the time. And it is a bit of a different. So we'll see, we'll see how it lands, but
[01:16:18] Tyler: There's not many surf films that are like this, of this genre and this kind of discussion, which I think is important, you know, and I think, uh, uh, we need self reflective Films like this where we can see our, our, our, our actions and, and the, the effects of those actions, you know, um, and I think it's a really wonderful job you did with the film.
[01:16:45] Tyler: Um, what are you working on next after this then? What, what's the idea? Is it still in the surf world? Are you trying to get away from that?
[01:16:53] Rebecca: I have something that I've written in the surf world and I would love to get that away [01:17:00] and it's based on a true story and it's kind of set in the nineties of the surf world and it's kind of in that sort of neck of the woods and yeah, I, I mean, I don't want to say too much else cause I don't know
[01:17:15] Tyler: no, no.
[01:17:21] Rebecca: I mean, there's, there's lots of interest in that and a couple of other things that I've been developing, but again, it's like, it comes down to the money. So it's just, it's like, I, I would love this to be out in the world. And then I think once that happens, maybe, um, you know, the next one can, can get a green light fingers crossed.
[01:17:43] Tyler: It's awesome. So let's, let's do the shameless plug, Rebecca, where, where can our listeners find this film, uh, or at least information on it, where can they find you and all of that sort of information[01:18:00]
[01:18:00] Rebecca: Well, okay, cool. So I think, um, the main thing to find info about point of change is on point of change, film. com. And the next screening is in Bell's beach and
[01:18:12] Tyler: Oh, what? That's going to be awesome. Are you going to get to go?
[01:18:17] Rebecca: I wish, I can't. It's my brother's 40th as well and I, I have so many reasons to get to Sydney because he's just had another baby and I really want to go and meet my little niece and stuff but, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, we'll see, we'll see what happens but hopefully at some point we'll do a little tour of Oz and, and go to a few cinemas and, um, before it's released online.
[01:18:39] Rebecca: But yeah, just watch this space really because, um, we're just finalising the details of it all.
[01:18:44] Tyler: And, and one other thing, you grew up surfing in New, in Jersey, not New Jersey, Jersey
[01:18:49] Rebecca: The old jersey, the OG!
[01:18:51] Tyler: proper Jersey, OG Jersey. Do you still, do you still live there as well? Or are you, uh, on the UK Island instead?[01:19:00]
[01:19:00] Rebecca: No, I moved back, so I'm back in Jersey where I grew up and yeah, I'm like near the beach and I still surf.
[01:19:06] Tyler: I hear such wonderful things about there and I've heard nice things about the waves as well.
[01:19:12] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, it's Atlantic rollers. It's great place. I mean, I love someone's Bay. It's one of my favorite places in the world and I feel very lucky to have grown up here and yeah, like started surfing when I was about 14 with youth club and it's been a, you know, a journey and I'm always like, ah, if I didn't film and if I didn't have all these other things to do around surfing, I could have been a really good surfer, but I still just love to go out on my longboard and have fun and I'm really.
[01:19:42] Rebecca: Uh, subscribe to the idea that the surfer having the most fun is the best surfer out there and you know, it's now it's different like I have little ones and I can't wait to teach them surfing and
[01:19:52] Tyler: to say, when are we getting them on the board?
[01:19:54] Rebecca: yeah, soon I'm like getting my wetsuits ready and stuff and you know, now it's more like I [01:20:00] just love the community of going down and, you know, And seeing old friends and faces and, you know, if I get to have a surf, like, it's a dream.
[01:20:07] Rebecca: It's just dreamy to be in, in the sea and have some time, you know, like it's, it's really special now. It's kind of even more special and sacred to me than ever before. So, yeah.
[01:20:18] Tyler: it's not as easy to get, you know, when you're young, you can just fuck off and go surf. And now you've got to manage your time a little bit better. So it's more precious. How is the surf scene in Jersey then? Like, I'm curious, I'm kind of continuing this on video, I am curious, like, has that scene grown?
[01:20:38] Tyler: And do you see that overcrowding as well there? Yeah. Yeah. Or has it been kind of stable?
[01:20:45] Rebecca: Yeah, I mean COVID was the same here that everyone took up surfing and it was kind of like, oh my god, and you know I've also like run retreats and got people into surfing and you know He was a surf instructor when I was younger. And [01:21:00] so I'm totally can feel the You know, frustration with the whole bunch of new people out there who have no idea of self etiquette or, you know, like where to sit and everything.
[01:21:13] Rebecca: It's so annoying, but equally then I just have to check myself and be like, do you know what? It doesn't matter. Like, it's great. They're having a good time. Like, it's cool. So yeah, there's definitely, you know, that. Sort of grumpy old surfer can come out and, and be like, Oh, it's, it was so much better when there's hardly anyone around, but you can still, you know, you still find those moments and now it's like, Oh, it's getting a bit cold.
[01:21:37] Rebecca: And then no one will throw it out or, you know, you know, a spot that only works on a certain time and tide. And you like, you know, this is a tiny island and it's kind of like growing up here really made me appreciate, um, what, you know, what you know, is to be a surfer in the sense of like having to earn some of it.
[01:21:56] Rebecca: Like, you know, when I first got into it, it was like, [01:22:00] Oh, you're just going to go down the beach. Oh, hang on the tides out. And it's going to be like five hours and then it's going to be dark. And it's like, Oh shit. So you can pretty quickly learn, like you have to figure out the tides and the wind direction and everything.
[01:22:11] Rebecca: Like there's a lot to it. And so that was good. Like that was good kind of, um, grounding to like learn all about what was involved and then get, you know, takes time and takes. effort. So then you feel that you've deserved it and you've worked for it. And that was all just a huge part of my education with, you know, getting comfortable in the sea and learning about everything around surfing.
[01:22:36] Rebecca: But I was just obsessed with surf culture from when I was a kid. I, I mean, I remember watching point break and being like, I, I, it was, I was obsessed. Like I was next to the TV video machine with like my tape recorder, recording the songs and like listen back again and be like, I don't know. It's just
[01:22:55] Tyler: you're like, how is, how's Matt Archibald a regular foot and then a goofy foot?
[01:22:59] Rebecca: yeah, what the [01:23:00] hell's going on? Yeah. And I mean, I went with, I remember I went with, um, youth club here. We went with our youth club and like, I was like bugging my dad and my dad's from like up North in England. He's, he's. Like from a landlocked place. And he had got into sailing when he moved to Jersey and he was like, he'd made a boat and stuff, he's really like skilled, amazing guy.
[01:23:20] Rebecca: And then I was always like, dad, I want to surf. And he didn't really understand about surfing, but he bought us these boards that were like really old and like really skinny little thin boards that are terrible for surfing on. And then this other guy was fixing them and then he didn't give them back for ages and you know, you're just like constantly bugging your dad about going surfing.
[01:23:37] Rebecca: I mean, like the whole journey with surfing is like. So interesting, because it teaches you so much about life and, you know, everything, and then you go out and, you know, it's hard and you have to keep getting out there and getting back, and like, I feel like it's such good training for life.
[01:23:55] Tyler: It's, it's remarkable like what, um, [01:24:00] what lessons you can pull from surfing, but at the same time, I find it mind blowing how so many surfers don't seem to do that or don't, don't really reflect on some of those lessons. It's funny, like, but then I don't know, like, I, I just think surfing, yeah, is so many So many things you can pull from it.
[01:24:22] Tyler: Um, not only that, but just the, the, the, like the Kevin Lovett story is mythological, you know, there's, there is a, it's like you said, it's almost like out of a Bible or a Bible or something, you know, it's got this biblical tale to it that is a common theme through, you know, his human history. And, I think surfing is littered with those types of lessons and stories even.
[01:24:46] Tyler: Surfing, I don't know, maybe other sports are like this too, but to me surfing has like this, you know, these stories that are mythology almost. They're mythologized and they're also would fit [01:25:00] perfectly in a Joseph Campbell book. You know, there are hero journey stories, there are hero with a thousand faces stories, like all of these things that.
[01:25:08] Tyler: You know, kind of work perfectly with like a surfing lens on them.
[01:25:13] Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, we don't learn, so then there's a new way, but you have to
[01:25:20] Tyler: Well, you keep, you keep eating shit until, you know, until you learn, right? So you learn like, Oh, angle the board slightly and get up faster or paddle harder or whatever it is, you know?
[01:25:33] Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:25:36] Tyler: Well, uh, Rebecca, I, this was such a pleasure and I really appreciate you coming on and making the time. And I, I also just, I love the movie. I thought it was so enjoyable to watch. really beautiful perspectives. It really was an incredible movie that I, again, encourage all of our [01:26:00]listeners to go check out when it is available, or if it is playing by them, keep an eye on it.
[01:26:06] Tyler: Um, and go follow Point of Change, you know, on Instagram. And then, of course, go to the website. And, uh, of course, you could follow Rebecca. I'm sure your Instagram handle is up there somewhere, if you want.
[01:26:22] Rebecca: That's it.
[01:26:23] Tyler: And, uh, yeah, so again, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And, um, listeners, uh, go check it out and obviously don't forget to check out Swell Season as well at Swell Season Surf Radio. And of course our website, SwellSeasonSurf. com. But yeah, Rebecca, so
[01:26:44] Rebecca: So much. Thank you for having me.
[01:26:46] Tyler: My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you. All right.
[01:26:49] Tyler: And we'll check you all down the line soon. You. [01:27:00] [01:28:00]